>> All right.  So I'm Donnie Atz and I am interviewing my grandpa for the History of the Year 1968 class.  And could you tell us your name?

>> Bernard [assumed spelling] Atz.  

>> Okay.  So, Grandpa, what years did you attend Penn State?

>> '69 to '71.  

>> Okay.

>> 1969 to 1971.  

>> And didn't you start Fayette in 1968?

>> I started at Uniontown Central School in 1968 and I went in there as an adjunct student because I was trying to avoid taking a SAT test because I had been out of high school for quite a number of years.  So I finished the courses at Central School, and I was the first class to go into the new Penn State Fayette campus in that year.  That's when it was first used.

>> And when did you graduate high school?  How many years had it been?

>> High school 1958.  So I had been out of high school ten years.

>> And what were some of the jobs you had between graduating high school and starting college?

>> Well, I went to barber school and became a barber.  And I started out in New York City building boats.  And came back from there, and went into the Army in '59 to 62.  I can't hear you.  

>> And when did you start barbering?  When was that?

>> After I went into the Army, I went to barber school out in Chicago, East Chicago, Indiana.  And, well, I started in Pittsburgh actually and finished Pennsylvania's requirements.  Then I went to East Chicago, Indiana to meet Indiana requirements to be a barber.  And then I bought a barber shop in Hobart, Indiana, and worked there for a couple years.  And we moved back after I decided I wanted to go to college.

>> And what brought you out to Indiana in the first place?

>> The steel mill out in Indiana.  I applied for and got a job at a steel mill in Gary, Indiana as a millwright.  

>> And what did you do as a millwright?  Tell me a bit about that job.

>> Basically, you set up the big machines, whatever you needed to do, change bearings and change rolls, heavy work, acid tank, worked in acid.  It was a pickling solution.  

>> And what made you choose Penn State for your university education?

>> Penn State had a good reputation in the area, and just from word of mouth from friends brought me there.

>> Had you had any friends that had already gone to Penn State?

>> No, not until I became a adjunct student where I met everyone.  

>> And when you became an adjunct student in Uniontown, what would eventually become Penn State Fayette, did you have the intention to eventually go to Penn State like [inaudible]?

>> Yes, yes.  I had dreams of being a forest ranger.  And I got in at the bottom of that program.  And while I was enrolled at Fayette campus, I found out that the only place I could go to complete what I wanted to do was at Mont Alto campus out at Central PA.  And that's when I changed my emphasis to park administration in the College of Recreation and Parks.  

>> So then what was your major again?  

>> Park administration.

>> Park administration.  Was there one particular course or professor that made a lasting impression on your studies?

>> Several.  Two that come to is Fred Combs [assumed spelling] and Pat Farrell [assumed spelling] were two of my teachers at that time, and they were excellent.

>> And now what classes did they teach?

>> Mostly recreation-oriented classes, administrative classes, a lot of recreation and park administration classes.

>> And what about those professors and their classes made such a lasting impression on you?

>> Well, it's been a few years, almost 50 since I've been around schools.  And they were just excellent teachers.  You can't beat someone that can get you interested in a class, and keep you going, especially when I was the oldest one in every class.  So I was like the grandfather that came in.  

>> And this question is going to be a bit different because you were quite a bit older when you started college, but what kind of music did you like at that time, either music in 1968 or just music you were listening to from your younger days that you enjoyed at the time? 

>> Yeah, '50s, oldies but goodies.

>> Who were some of the artists?

>> Porky Chedwick was the biggest DJ, and we listened to him all the time.  We'd follow him around to dances in the local area.

>> Where would you find dances in the local area?

>> Usually at old fire halls and company stores that had been closed and turned into recreation areas.  There's quite a bit of activity in those local areas, like in Smock and Uniontown and La Belle, different areas around the area. 

>> So were there any particular artists you liked specifically, or was it just whatever the DJ was playing you just liked?

>> Yeah, he would play mostly just the oldies and blues songs that were popular at the time.  

>> And where did you get and obtain your news from back in these days?

>> Radio.  That was about the biggest thing going, especially if you had an FM radio years ago that was really something, and 8-track tape player would usually play the music that you're interested in.  

>> Oh, no, where did you get your news?

>> Just the radio.  

>> The news as well as the music?

>> Yes.  And TV.  Some TV, not much.  

>> So I'm assuming the TV you would watch like just the nightly news, people like Walter Cronkite?

>> Yes, yes.  Very much so.  

>> Were there any other evening news shows that you watched, or was it just Walter Cronkite?

>> Oh, just whatever was on.  I never got to pick.  

>> And what was, like, radio news like at the time?  Was there an NBC channel, was there a CBS channel, or what kind of radio stations were there that would give you the news?

>> They were local stations.  Brownsville had a [inaudible] they called The Bee, so mostly Brownsville.  

^M00:10:08

>> And --

>> [inaudible] had it, too. 

>> And back in these days would you say that the news was less biased, more fair, more balanced, just less opinion involved?  Just more so just giving you the facts as they are?

>> Right, very much so.  There wasn't a lot of controversy in those days.  

>> And so did you ever read any newspapers back in those days, or did you get it just from the radio and the TV?

>> And newspapers, absolutely, lots of them.  

>> What were some of the papers [inaudible] back then?

>> The Brownsville Telegraph was the local paper at the time, and The Uniontown Herald Standard was the second paper, and the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette and the Pittsburgh Press.  Sundays we'd get the Pittsburgh papers.  

>> And there was a lot occurring in the late '60s, such as the first moon photos from space, or the student protests at the presidential election of 1968.  What were some of your particular interests at the time?  What of those stories, like, what kind of big news stories did you follow closely, what piqued your interest, what did you think was important?

>> Well, the first space program was probably the main interest area for me.  I even have pictures of, like, television where the astronauts [inaudible] the moon.  That was a pretty good time to be around.  

>> Oh, you took pictures of the TV while they were landing on the moon, you took pictures, like, of the TV?

>> Yes, I did.  I still have them. 

>> Oh, I haven't seen those.  

>> Yeah, I've got them. 

>> What do you remember of the presidential election of 1968?

>> Not much.  I really didn't participate a lot in politics.  I was more interested in cars, and how fast they could go.  

>> What are some of the cars around those times that you were interested in, and what were some of the ones you would, like, read in the car magazines and think, "Man, that's fast.  I want that one,"? 

>> Yeah, well, I had a '57 Chevy that was different than most of them.  It was built by a professional racer, and it was a nice car.  

>> What --

>> My friends had '55 Chevys, and we were mostly Chevy people in those days.  And I currently have an '80 Camaro that somebody I know owns.  

>> So why do you like fast cars?  Why did you want to race them?  Why did you have a custom built '57 Bel Air?  What was your motivation behind all of this?

>> Speed.  I liked to drag race, and it was a nice to have a car that could really go.  

>> I can tell you I think I inherited that interest from you.  

>> Well, that's great.  I hope you stick with it.

>> I'm curious, didn't you run for county commissioner or something in the late '70s, early '80s?  Didn't you get involved with county politics later in your life?

>> Yeah, I ran for treasurer of Fayette County.  And after that, I ran for township supervisor, which I won.  And I was supervisor for over ten years.  

>> So then what was the change?  What changed between 1968, where you weren't interested in politics, to later in your life, when you were actively running for political positions in your local community, in your local government?  

>> It was limited interest, because I was only interested in being a township supervisor [inaudible] and fixing roads.  So politically I didn't get too active other than in Luzerne Township where I had to have votes to get back in three elections.  

^M00:15:06 

^M00:15:10

>> And were there any interests you developed while you were at Penn State that you didn't have before?

>> Not really.  I was just a country kid that really didn't have a lot of ideas on national politics.  But my education at Penn State gave me initiative to learn about what people felt and wanted.

>> Were there any, like, not local, just, like, you're interested in cars, I know you've been interested in hunting and fishing.  Were there any other just, like, recreational interests that you developed during your time at Penn State?  

>> Well, at Penn State you had to participate in all the recreational activity there.  We even got educated in games and icebreakers mostly that allowed people to do what they wanted to do.  

>> Icebreakers?  You mean, like, introductory games to introduce yourselves to other people?

>> Right, right.  And camping was a big interest.  We used to go to Stone Valley area to camp while we were at Penn State.  And canoeing.  We did almost all the outdoor activity over there.  Played golf at the two courses at Penn State, the blue and the white course.  

>> And what was it like going to college with a wife and kids?

>> It was an experience.  One thing you didn't do is you didn't get too lonely.  The kids kept you busy.  

>> And what were you doing for work at the time?

>> I had the GI Bill and I drove bus for Fullington Bus Lines, hauled kids to school.  

>> Like, driving school buses for, like, elementary and high school?

>> Yes.  And state college.

>> Nice.  And was it hard trying to balance work with family and school at the exact same time?

>> You didn't have any choice.  You had to do it, because the kids were demanding at that age.  They were two and four years old, and so they kept you busy.  And then you had neighbors to recognize that they needed certain things.  And we lived in a trailer park, and were quite close to all the people that lived there.  So we had to help each other out.  Most of them are also in college, so we had interests that were similar.

>> And you managed to finish your degree in three years.  Like, was that a struggle having -- was it hard?  Did you have to work extra just to -- that you finished early with a wife, kids and a job?

>> Extremely hard, because we needed to take courses that would put me through quicker.  And I went year-round.  And at that time there were terms instead of semesters at Penn State.  And you could take classes in the summer almost full-time.

>> Oh, and you took summer classes as well?

>> Oh, yeah.  Never stopped.  Didn't get any vacations.  

>> Was it nice to see that your kids all eventually went to Penn State?

>> Oh, yeah, excellent.  And I really looked forward to that.  They did well.  

>> And then, well, at least one of your grandchildren so far.  There are two more who might follow.  

>> Right.  Yeah.  And, hopefully, they'll earn their degree there.  The more, the better.  

>> Mm-hmm.  

^M00:20:00

And was there a noticeable anti-war sentiment on campus while you were there?

>> No, it wasn't too bad.  I belonged to the veterans' organization that, because I was older, there are other older veterans that participated there, and we'd hang around the club and have meetings, and just talk about needs that we had.  And really it was nice, because we had people there that had the same experience that you had, and it made a lot of difference.  But there was never protests.  At that time we didn't have any.

>> What was it like, '68 was a volatile year with anti-war protests and such, how did you feel about that having been a veteran who was in the army for all of those years?

>> Well, having other members of the military there at Penn State, we didn't really participate in any of the protest-type issues.  Really, none of the veterans that were at Penn State at that time were really interested in -- we were interested in finishing school, and not so much in protests.

>> Did you see on the nightly news and stuff, did you see protests a lot around those times, or were there a decent amount of news stories about the anti-war sentiment?

>> Yeah, there were a few there, but not many.  

>> And what was it like watching footage from Vietnam come nightly into your home to the television screen having been in the Army for all those years?  Was that emotional for you?  How did you feel about that?

>> I didn't really feel much about it.  I was so busy in school that I didn't have time to protest for sure.  I mean, I had plenty of studies to go through, especially being an older student, things came a lot harder to me than it did to most of the kids.  The other kids had fresher minds, guess.  But that's about where it was.

>> What was it like going to college not only a decade after high school, but a decade after working manual labor jobs?  Because there probably weren't a whole lot of students there who had put time in the steel mills and the Army, building boats.  What was it like?

>> It was a nice experience.  I really didn't mind the Penn State experience at all.  It was promotional more than anything else.  And we were so happy to be there that it didn't really show [inaudible].  

>> Did you have any particular struggles as returning to school after ten years?  You were ten years older than everyone else who was there.  Was there any struggles with that?

>> Oh, yes, I had lots of them.  That's one of the reasons I didn't participate in all the things, because I didn't have the advantage of a quick brain that was just fresh out of school and learning.  So I had to teach myself to learn a little there.  It was much harder. 

>> What were some of the struggles you faced being that you were ten years older than everyone else?

>> Well, most kids when they get out of school they've already had chemistry and algebra and all of the basics that you need.  And I didn't have any of those.  And so when I had to take a chemistry class, I had to really apply myself to get through.  And the same with math.  That was really rough.

>> I understand, I know you've mentioned before that just poor, rural coal-mining towns, the high school had just barely anything in the ways of advanced mathematics or science.

>> Right.  Didn't have anything.  It was mostly then in my day it was reading, writing and arithmetic.  And that was about it.  

>> And did you have a lot of science and math courses as a forestry major in the college [inaudible].

>> My is a Bachelor of Science degree.  So I had enough to get a Bachelor of Science from Penn State.

>> And what was Penn State, or I guess it wasn't even Penn State Fayette then.  What was Penn State Fayette like at the time?  And what was it like to transfer from a branch campus to the main campus back in those days?

>> Well, it didn't mean a thing.  I just told them that I was going up to state college, and it didn't require anything at all.  It was just get admitted and sign up for courses.

>> So your first --

>> It really was --

>> What were you saying?

>> I just said that there wasn't any -- I can't read that.  There wasn't any real problem with going up to main campus.  Now, I know both of my kids that went in, and when they went to transfer they had to fill out a lot of forms, and do a lot of extra activities, things.  But I didn't have to do any of that.  Being a veteran helped, too.  

>> In what ways did being a veteran help you in your college career?

>> Well, it allowed me to to be admitted without taking a SAT test.  And, as I said, I belonged to a veterans' organization at Penn State that we kept in touch with each other making life a little bit easier.

>> And so you starting as an adjunct student at Penn State Fayette, so it was more about getting the core classes so you could be admitted without the SAT --

>> Right.

>> Score more so than it is nowadays where students then do that for the price difference.

>> Right.  Big difference.  And the cost in them days was a whole lot less than it is now.  

>> Well, that's for sure.  And was there a difference in price between the branch campus and the main campus back in 1968-'69?

>> No, not much.  I think back then a credit was $150, roughly, a credit.  Now it's way up there now.  

>> Mm-hmm.  And where were you living at the time you were going to school in Uniontown?

>> In Uniontown we had a house out in the country near La Belle.  

>> And what was La Belle and Uniontown like in those days?

>> There wasn't a lot population then.  Everybody had already moved away.  Most of the young people were gone at that time.  So they either went to Cleveland or New York or whatever to find work, because the coal mines were shutting down.  There wasn't a whole lot to do.

>> What were you doing for work while you were attending Penn State Fayette?

>> Well, I part-time cut hair as a barber.  And, like I said, I drove school bus for Fullington.  And then the GI Bill actually.  I got $300 a month --

>> Oh.

>> To pay for tuition, books and my kids' support.  

>> And were you still in the Army Reserves at that time?

>> No, I joined after I graduated from Penn State.  I joined the Army Reserves in about '75.  

>> And where --

>> So we had it -- 

>> Was your college education in those days, was that enough to make you an officer when you rejoined the Army in '75?

>> No, I was an E6, which is sort of first class.  I left the Army as a E5, which is a [inaudible] sergeant, and then I went up two grades when I got in the Reserves.  

^M00:30:15

>> And what was your specific job in the Army?  

>> Specifically, I was a petroleum storage specialist, which is, basically, taking care of oil and gas supplies for the military.  But I really didn't get into that too much, because I became a swimming instructor for officers' dependents for three years.  So I traveled around the country teaching people how to swim.

>> How did you learn to swim?

>> I was from Maxwell or La Bell, and you lived in a river.  So there was no problem with swimming.  Where we lived about less than half a mile from the river.  So with not a lot to do, that's where you hung out.  

>> So looping this back to your answer about your interests at the time, so how exactly did you get into cars?

>> Well, it was bred into us when we were kids.  That's all you [inaudible] you'd want to see was a hot rod of some type.  And we just had opportunities.  I could walk out from where my house was, there were two junkyards that we used to hang around.  And we'd go out there and take cars apart for nothing, just to be able to do it. 

>> How do you feel that cars have changed from the time you were young and first getting into cars to 1968?  What were the differences when it evolved?

>> There were never nothing really.  The operation of an internal combustion engine never has changed, even since we were kids.  So it's been improved on by changing compression ratios and intakes and all that, but nothing really changed in as far as an engine goes.  Now, today they make them quite powerful and fast.  But years ago it was [inaudible] it was making up your own versions of those power.

>> And what were some of the things you did to make your own versions of power?  What were some of the things you'd do to the engine to make it faster back in 1968?  Because I'm sure it's very different than what I would do now.  

>> We could lower the compression or, I mean, up the compression in an engine by shaving heads and putting bigger valves in, and just generally experimenting.  We didn't have anything written down, so we just experimented.  In that time it was easy because we had access to a junkyard.  It has everything we needed.  

>> And so in 1960, I understand the late-'60s was the heyday of the muscle cars.  Not like the '57 Bel Airs, but like the big Camaros and the Mustangs.  And what were some of the cars you would have liked to have had from those times, and what were some of the cars you did have in those times?  

>> I had a lot of cars.  My insurance man went back through his files when we left him, it was about a foot and a half high was the height of the files, just titles that I have had and insurance policies that I've had.  I'm sure it's well over 75 to 100 cars.  So it made a big difference.  I had a lot of cars.

>> Were there any specific ones from the late '60s or early '70s that you remember fondly?

>> Late '60 cars were really Camaros were the big popular cars.  They were the fastest at that time.  And then Dodge came out with a hemi.  And the hemi really started blowing everybody away, but it wasn't bad.  They were good cars.  

>> Did you ever have a hemi yourself?

>> No, no.  You've got to have money to put into a car that makes over 400 horses.  That's a pretty good expense.  

>> And you were also into motorcycles, weren't you?

>> Oh, yeah.  Yeah, I had a lot of those.  The most competitive was a BSA.  I had a 1958 BSA motorcycle, super rocket, 650 ccs that I reworked and had over 1,200 before we were done with it.  

>> Wait, so 1,200, you bored the block out to have a displacement of 1,200 ccs?

>> Yes.  [inaudible] didn't sleep.  It wasn't just boring, because the walls were too thin.  So we just had to put sleeves in them to make them bigger.  

>> Now, a '50s BSA, would that had of been a V-twin?  

>> Yeah, I think it was really a 750.  It wasn't a 650 when it was punched up.  And I've had Indians and I've had Hondas, you name it, I've probably had it.  

>> And in the late '60s, I think in '68 was actually the first year for the Honda 754, in the late '60s, early '70s, that's when the Japanese bikes started hitting the scene, blowing everyone out of the water.  Did you ever have any of those bikes?

>> Right.  I had a 754, a 750.  It was a good bike.  They run good.  The nice thing about the Honda is they always started.  You didn't have to worry about them.

>> What was it like when the Japanese bikes were hitting the scene, and suddenly blowing all of like the American and the British bikes out of the water speed-wise?

>> Well, they were doing it, too.  They had good bikes.  That was the big thing.  They were very dependable and very fast.  

>> And, if I recall correctly, you mentioned you had an old Kawasaki Kz1000?

>> Yes.  Yeah, that was a good bike.  But the Honda was a better one.  

>> So the Honda CB754 and the Kz1000 at their times were both the fastest production bikes, like, ever when they respectively came out.  Did you --

>> Right.

>> Did it feel special having the fastest bike on the road at the time?

>> No, not really, because there were plenty of them around.  They weren't unique.  And the fact that if you had enough money you could buy anything [inaudible].

>> And in our class we've looked at pictures of the Chevelle before, like, old ads for the Chevelle.  Didn't you have --

>> Yeah.

>> How many Chevelles?

>> A 1970 Chevelle I had.  It was a pretty good machine.  It had the big-block Chevelle 396.  It started out as a 396, and then we tweaked it a little bit and had a four-speed with 411 gears.  So it would lead pretty good.

>> 411 in the differential?

>> Yes.  

>> That thing had to have moved fast.  

>> It would bring the front end off the ground with no trouble.  

>> And my dad claims that you bought and built that car with my uncle's money while he was away in Germany in the Army.  Is that true [inaudible]?

^M00:40:02

>> No, not really.  No, it was with my money.  It wasn't his.  I can guarantee that.  

>> And how does it feel, because all of your sons and your grandchildren are all now into cars and motorcycles and quads, how does it feel having a whole family [inaudible] now?

>> Great.  It's wonderful, yeah.  I had a bad experience last year with an eye doctor that messed up my eye, so I'm now out of the car business.  I can't drive anymore.  

>> What --

^M00:40:50

[ Inaudible Speaker ]

^M00:40:51

>> Did you try to instill old cars and motorcycles and just machines on your children, or was it just something that happened with them growing up around it [inaudible]?

>> From them growing up around them.  That was, basically, it, yes. 

>> And how did your wife at the time feel about all of your expenditures on cars and motorcycles and whatnot?

>> Well, she was poor for a long time.  

>> What was that?

>> She was poor.  She didn't have that much money to spend.  When we'd get some extra change it went into a car or a bike or a quad. 

>> And so after your days at Penn State, what were some of the jobs you were able to get with your degree after that?  How did your degree change the work you did?

>> Well, in my county I was the first park director for my county, Fayette County, and in the history of Fayette County.

>> Oh.

>> There was no park program in Fayette County at that time.  And now it's grown and there's several county parks that we've bought and paid for through projects that [inaudible] money, the federal dollars that we applied and built them with it. 

>> And did you have a hand in getting the parks program started in Fayette County?

>> Yes, I was the director, and I worked for a board of directors as a paid administrator.  

>> And I know you've had many jobs both before and after college.  What were some of the other jobs you had after attending Penn State?  What were some of the other things you did for work?

>> Well, I had my own barber shop for a while.  Dad funded that.  

>> Do you feel that Penn State was able to give you any more knowledge in the ways of managing a business?  Because I know you had the barber shop, you had a bar for a while, you had a few businesses.  How did Penn State affect that?

>> I ran a lumber company.  We bought timber out in the woods and on the stump and harvested it, and supplied mining companies with the kind of material they needed.  Then I later became a member of the Fayette County, as a member of Luzerne Township supervisors, I became a member of the Fayette County Park and Recreation Commission.  I bought a bar.  I had a bar up in La Belle that we had for two years or three years.  One of the two.  Anyway, yeah, I had lots of opportunities that having a college degree allowed me to pursue. 

>> And just as a closing question, what is one suggestion that you would offer to current students at Penn State?  

>> Yes, concentrate on your classes.  Some of them sound ridiculous and may feel ridiculous, but they're trying to give you the opportunity to enhance your lifestyle.  And they do such a good job up there.  You know, we can't complain.  I'm retired now and enjoying life as a retired supervisor.  And I wish everybody had that opportunity.  

>> All right.  Well, thank you for that very exciting and interesting interview.  

>> Thank you for doing this with me.  

>> Well, I'm glad I got --

>> I appreciate it.

>> I'm glad you're the one I got to interview.  

>> Thank you.  Have a good day.

>> You, too. 

Interview by Allison White

>> All right, recording. [laughs] Okay, so to start the interview; could you tell us a little bit about yourself? ^M00:00:06 ^M00:00:09 >> A little bit about myself. I'm 69 years old. I graduated Penn State in 1969. I went to Dental School and I graduated and went the four years for Oral Surgery -- so I'm an oral surgeon. I was in private practice for 37 years. Retired in 2014. I travel now and just probably, unfortunately don't get out of the house enough. I was married in 73. I have three sons. I divorced in 93 and then had a significant other for 20 years who passed away in 2014. That's when we retired. That's it in a capsule form. >> All right. Did -- you said about your sons -- did any of them go to Penn State as well? >> My oldest went to Penn State. He graduated in 99.  >> Okay. >> My middle one went to Maryland and my youngest son went to Yale. >> Oh, wow! Smart family. [laughing] >> Smart family. >> Yeah. >> Pretty much. They don't take after their old man, that's for sure.  >> [laughing] So why did you choose Penn State for your education? >> I chose Penn State -- I graduated -- I grew up in the University of Philadelphia and I graduated in January of 1965. And the public schools in Philadelphia had mid-year graduations. I was the last mid-year graduating class. And I went to Temple for a semester and got 18 credits. But I knew I wanted to go away from home. I only applied to two schools in state -- [inaudible] and Penn State and got into Penn State in the fall of 65 and just needed to get out of Philadelphia. >> Yeah, I feel that. [laughing] But -- [inaudible] Go ahead. >> So that's how I wound up at Penn State. I was -- I skipped seventh grade for some reason, and so I was always young for my age. So I graduated -- I actually graduated high school when I was 16. >> Oh, wow! >> Started Penn State when I was 17. So that was the fall of 65 I was 17. And so I was always a year ahead of myself. So I was kind of socially awkward because I was always the youngest in my class. [acknowledging noise] And just needed to get away from my parents, needed to get away from Philadelphia, needed to get away from the city and Penn State -- Actually, I knew no one there. It was a blind application. I got in and said, "Great!" You know? "My life starts now." >> Yeah. Did you apply to Penn State for like dental school? Like was that your plan since the beginning? >> No. It's funny. Not at all. [laughing] I really -- I was in kind of an advanced class in high school, which was, you know advanced math, advanced science, advanced this, advanced that. It was like a block class that we all travelled together for a couple of years in high school. [acknowledging noise] I was in the College of Science. Penn State in 65 was a term system. There were four terms. There was fall, winter, spring and summer. But you didn't have to go to the summer term. So I started in the College of Science. I think I got a one nine my first time. I got a two one my second term and then my parents made a phone call to me screaming and yelling at me [laughter] that I was flunking out. They were going to drag me home and put me back into Temple. And scared the bejesus out of me.  >> Yeah. >> And so I transferred out of the College of Science into -- I think it was called the Continuing Education. It was kind of like a weigh station between one school and the next school that you chose. And I chose Liberal Arts and flourished because actually I was really Humanities inclined, not science. I hated science. I hated math. I hated, you know whatever was science. I didn't really -- but I flourished in History and English and I became kind of like a History Major in Medieval [inaudible] Middle Ages and I flourished. I still had to take Science but I took the Liberal Arts' Science. >> Yeah. I'm in Liberal Arts right now. So I know what you're doing. >> Yeah, so I graduated with a degree in General Arts and Science, which is a degree of nothing, really. [laughter] I wanted to just stay at Penn State. I wanted to be an English Professor. That didn't work out because of the Vietnam War, which I might have been drafted. And although I wasn't an active conscientious objector, you know I didn't want to go fight really. I just didn't see the sense of the war. I mean it was -- I guess we can get into that later on. I don't know if I'm going off on a tangent or not.  >> Oh, no. You're good. Talk away. >> And so it was a troubling time. When I started in 1965 it was -- the world was a great place. I mean the Vietnam War had not yet ramped up. I joined a fraternity right off the bat. I mean I was rushing the first week. >> Geez. >> I mean I was just -- I was living the high life, you know? >> Yeah.  >> Here I was an inner city kid going to Penn State and then I was just into it. So I joined a fraternity. And of course my father was -- my mother and father -- I came from a working-class family. My mother and father were hard workers. I had an older brother. You know they worked hard to put their kids [unintelligible]. My brother and I were first generation college people. My parents were high school educated but they worked hard, you know to provide so that we could go off to college. >> Yeah. >> And I kind of felt that I might have been abusing their hard efforts [acknowledging noise] to put us in college by me having a good time. >> Yeah. >> So I made it a point to, you know to do well. And I did do well in Liberal Arts. I mean I'd rather go home with a bunch of 4.0's in addition to having a great time. I mean I just got so involved in Greek life. It was just a lot of fun -- weekend parties, sororities, and -- >> Oh, yeah. >> And I was just -- I just got caught up in it. And, you know at the time you don't realize it, but 60 years later, you know this whole thing -- talking to you brings up such memories that I had really forgotten [laughter] over the years. >> Yeah. >> You know I stayed in touch with some fraternity brothers and I was on the Liberal Arts Alumni Society Board for a bunch of years. And so I would get back up there, but you know you can never go home again. You know you can't live that life.  >> Yeah. >> But you also can't appreciate it while you are living it. It's only years later when all that perspective is behind you that you go, "Oh my God! What a great time." [laughter] And [inaudible] And so in 65 and in 66 and 67 it was just party and fun in Stone Valley and Happy Valley and Whipple Dam and you know sitting out on the club lawn and playing baseball and football and going to all of the football games. I mean there's just -- it was crazy.  >> Yeah. >> And then I -- yeah, go ahead. >> I was going to say; what was your favorite thing like about your fun? Like was it football games or like the Greek life? Or what? >> If I had to generalize it was certainly the Greek life. The Greek life encompassed everything. >> Okay. >> It encompassed going to the football games, and it encompassed the parties, and it encompassed your fraternity brothers, it encompass -- there was Spring week, which was a week of festivals up next to the -- in the IM Fields next to the stadium, which I think now is a baseball field. >> Yeah. >> It's a baseball stadium? >> Yup. >> So those were all intramural fields where you do floats and skits and it was just a carnival atmosphere. And all these -- all -- everything -- in my life, everything revolved around Greek life. >> Okay. Yeah. >> It was just -- you know I was -- you know, I pledged. I went through Hell Week. I was Hell Week Chairman. I was -- all these things are so different today. [acknowledging noise] They seem so juvenile and they seem so -- I can't think of the word. You know it's just -- you know people look at you and go, "What?" I mean I was 17 years old when I joined the fraternity and we drank in the fraternity. I mean it was as simple as that. We always had somebody on door duty and they wouldn't let you leave if you were drunk, but we all drank in the fraternity at 17 years old, 18 years -- I mean we were all underage. >> Yeah. >> Other than, you know -- other than seniors and some of the juniors. But that was life then and no one really bothered you unless you made an ass out of yourself. >> Yeah. >> Unless you abused it -- unless you really abused the system. My best friend, who is my attorney today, lived across the street. [unintelligible] And he lived -- he was a Delta Sigma Fi with the pink hat and pink house. >> Yeah. >> Yeah, that's between Fairmount and Locust Lane. So he was in the fraternity. He was president of the Fraternity Council. And we became best friends our first week. And so he is my attorney today. And this is 50 years later. >> Wow! >> 55 years later. So -- >> That's awesome.  >> I mean it was just such a good time. Thinking back on it -- I think I said in my bio, "It was the best four years together." >> Yup. Yeah. >> Of my life. I mean it really was. I mean you just didn't -- you worried about -- the only things you really worried about were; did you have a date for the weekend? [laughter] Did you -- could you steal the exams? Could you -- I'm trying to think. You worried about the house. You made sure the house was clean. You beat the pledges. [laughter] Hazing is frowned upon and I understand that and you know everything -- I'm only telling you this because everybody's life evolves and their demeanor changes over the years. I'm not quite sure that I approve of all that nonsense that we -- that I went through years ago, but that's the way it was.  >> Yup. >> That was life at Penn State. They don't call it Happy Valley for nothing.  >> No. Trust me, I know. >> They really don't. So if you're asking what my life revolved around, it was the fraternity, you know? I mean the rooms -- women were not allowed upstairs in the fraternity. Women had curfews. They had to be home -- they had to be back in the dorm at 11 on weekdays and one on the weekends. And I think -- maybe my junior year they were allowed -- you could -- they could sign in and then sign out again for the rest of the night. They could stay if they had the -- they had to let the university know where they were.  >> Yeah. >> Then I think my senior year they were finally allowed upstairs in fraternities. And of course I voted against it because it was my fraternity and I didn't feel like I had to put a -- you know I had to put something on to walk around upstairs in my fraternity. >> Yeah. >> But of course I was voted down by all the sophomores and juniors, you know they [unintelligible]. >> They wanted it. [laughter] >> Absolutely, they wanted it. >> Yup.  >> So things changed and then in 68 the war really started ramping up. People that you knew were being drafted and people were dying and that's when kind of the protests started. That's when the sit-ins started and that's when students were taking over Presidents' offices. That's when there were protest marches. I've never really got involved with it. I mean I would stand there and listen but I would move on. I was not an activist. I was not a protester. I just -- it wasn't me. I didn't have anything to protest.  >> Yeah. [laughing] >> I mean the war was the war, but you know? In hind sight I don't think one person can change a whole lot but a groundswell can. You know maybe I should have become -- I mean it's all a moot point now, you know? To think that I should have done this and I should have done that. [acknowledging noise] But I can tell you I have no regrets of those four years, going to Penn State.  >> Yeah. >> None whatsoever.  >> So was there a lot of tension on campus because of the protests? Like the people fighting? [laughs] >> Not when I was there. >> Okay. >> Not in 68, not in 69, but when I left there was. Just by reading the newspapers and knowing what was going on. Just from people that I knew, fraternity brothers that were still there. Yeah, things got heated up. I think they -- I remember they protested in Old Main and they took over the President's Office and sat in and you know all kinds of turmoil.  >> Yeah. >> But I didn't -- but you know now I was in Graduate School. I just wanted to get through -- I just wanted to go back to Penn State to get -- [laughing] I had trouble -- I had separation -- >> Separation anxiety. Yup. >> Separation anxiety. In fact I came back the next summer and I think I worked for a few weeks at Penn State in the Physical Plant just to be at Penn State. I couldn't leave. It was really very [laughter] difficult because you know when you're at Penn State it's all good times. Now you're at Graduate School and it's -- pardon my language -- but it sucks. It really does.  >> Yeah, I couldn't imagine.  >> And so yeah. So I really didn't want to leave, but you know obviously eventually you move on with your life and you realize that you can't live that again. You know? But that's why I wanted to stay there. I wanted to stay there and become a professor and live -- you know get married and raise a family there. I mean it was such an idyllic place to live. [acknowledging noise] But the war got in the way and graduate school got in the way and I met someone, I got married and had children and life just keeps going on. And once you -- it's like -- you know it's like this snowball that just keeps rolling down the hill. You can't stop it. Life keeps -- and then you're raising children and then you're -- you have a practice. You've got to get up every day to go to work and [sigh] yeah. So when this opportunity to join the Alumni Society -- the Board of Directors -- I jumped at that. That was in I think 1993.  >> Okay, so what do you do on that? Like what would your role -- ? ^M00:15:51 ^M00:15:55 >> You kind of make policy in the College of Liberal Arts for the alumni. I was in charge of raising, endowing a chair. So I was raising them as a fundraiser for the Alumni Society -- [acknowledging noise] the Liberal Arts Alumni Society. You know, phone calls, meeting people.  >> Yeah.  >> Whatever. The Dean -- you know the Dean would have a couple dinners a year. Joe Paterno's wife was a Liberal Arts graduate so we would see her, you know at a bunch of football [unintelligible] Joe Paterno. [acknowledging noise] That kind of thing. So it was good to reconnect. That was my -- you know it was a good thing. It was a grownup thing to do, you know? [acknowledging noise] Since I couldn't party there anymore it was the big boy thing to do -- to join the society. >> Yeah.  >> And you meet twice a year and you fund certain projects. You distribute -- you have scholarship money. You meet at lunches with the students that received the money and it -- how life changing it is for certain students -- to give them some scholarship money. It's inspiring really. It kind of makes you cry when you see how life changing it can be to some students.  >> Yeah. >> So that was -- it served a real nice purpose. They wanted me to say [sighs] and they give you -- I kind of moved on. My youngest was in college at the time and he was a -- he plays lacrosse and so I got more interested in following his career in college than you know going back to Penn State. But just kind of peaked my interest again -- speaking with you and doing this thing.  >> Yeah. >> I mean, I'm not exactly sure if I'm filling -- I mean this is -- what I'm saying is for you so if I go off on a tangent or if I'm not fulfilling your needs just stop me and tell me.  >> No. Yeah, you're okay. I love that you're telling stories. >> Okay. And I -- what else? You know, my first term -- I lived in the dorms my first two terms; my fall and winter terms. I lived in 108 Shunk. [phonetic] And so I faced South Halls, which were all female at the time. >> Okay. >> I think it's changed now. >> Yeah. >> And they used to have these Tangeraids [phonetic] and all these girls would come screaming out, running it through. And I had a view of this because 108 faced South Halls. [laughter] And so I remember that -- vividly. I remember eating in Pollock. [assumed spelling] >> Yup. >> The dining hall. I remember getting [unintelligible] mail. I remember letters from my parents saying, "You better shape up or" you know "we're going to ship you out." >> Yeah. >> I remember the sororities. I remember going to sports. I remember where I was at certain events in history. I remember I was in Hister [phonetic] when I saw that Martin Luther King was shot.  >> Oh, wow! >> I can remember I was in -- I forget which sorority -- Api [phonetic]? Pi Phi? I forget but I can remember being in one of the suites and watching TV. It was in late afternoon and I remember the news flash that Martin Luther King was shot. So I remember when the space program ramped up -- was ramping up -- the Apollo Space Program. That was landing a man on the moon. And I remember I was at a -- they were called Jammies. Do they still call them Jammies? >> What? >> It's where -- it was at the Hub. It was at the Hub Ballroom. Every Friday or Saturday night that had [inaudible] people. A couple of sorority people would meet and a bunch of fraternity guys would get together and go over there. And I remember -- I think it was January of 60 -- 65 -- 67 when Apollo One -- when the three astronauts -- it burned -- died in the fire on the launch pad. It was a test. They were taking off. It's amazing. I can remember where I was in certain events you know in the world happened.  >> Yeah. Did -- so -- >> [unintelligible] I was right in front of the Hub Ballroom. >> Okay. Well, that's so cool.  >> Yeah. So that's about -- I mean I got -- if you ask me some questions. Ask me certain questions, it evokes certain memories. I have 1,000 thoughts and I remember a whole lot of them. >> So, did you get most of your news from the TV or did you ever listen to the radio or -- ? >> Listening to the news -- from TV -- was from the [unintelligible]. >> Okay. And then -- ? >> Yeah, we had newspapers every day. That was one of the pledge responsibilities. They had to go to -- down on --  across from the corner room there's a news stand. They had to get a bunch of newspapers, bring it back to the fraternity. So we got them from newspapers. We had one phone. We had one number -- one phone line in the fraternity with a bunch of extensions. No one had their own phone until I think their junior year, when the fraternity was given multiple lines so you could have your own phone in your room. But there was one phone. A pledge had to be on phone duty. They'd just sit downstairs, you know in the foyer of the fraternity, where there was the phone room, and if the phone rang asking for somebody he had to run through the fraternity calling out this guy's name. He had to go downstairs and pick up the phone. If I wanted to call home I'd have to pick up an extension. There were two or three extensions in the fraternity. And dial home and make it a collect call. You have no idea what I'm talking about -- I know.  >> [laughing] No, not at all. It's a lot different now.  >> Yeah, it's amazing. You know like you said, if somebody said to me, "A cellphone" I would have said, "What the hell are you talking about?" >> Yeah. >> What kind of phone? Everybody had a typewriter. >> Really? >> I'm [unintelligible] You know what a typewriter is? >> Yeah, I do. [laughs] >> Yeah, you put the piece of paper in, you roll it in, you start typing. [acknowledging noise] And then you pull the piece of paper out. Well, you know people -- kids today would have no idea. You know what a keyboard is, but they don't know what a typewriter is.  >> Well, I can't imagine not having my computer. [laughs] >> There you go. >> I do everything on it.  >> Isn't it amazing how life has changed? How the world has changed in 50 years? >> Yeah.  >> It's unbelievable. >> Yeah, were your classes like small or big or [unintelligible]? >> That depended on the class that you took. >> Okay. >> I took a bunch of history classes. They were typically in Willard [assumed spelling] and so you know in the spring or the fall we'd hang out at Willard. We'd sit on the steps or you know the side and shoot the crap with them. You know? >> Yeah. >> You'd go out with the guys and then you'd go into class and there was typically 25 seats in those classrooms. And then if you had a big class in a popular course, D Site 20 was a very popular course. So that was given in Schwab. [assumed spelling] >> Schwab, okay. Yeah. >> So how many does Schwab seat? Hundreds I guess.  >> Yeah. >> A lot of the classes were in Forum. [assumed spelling] Those are big classrooms.  >> Oh, yeah. So the -- >> So it depended on the course that you took, you know? Most of my classes were in Willard and Forum. Some in Schwab. I think a couple in Barrows [assumed spelling] and Sparks. [assumed spelling] [acknowledging noise] That was it. >> Did you have any classes or professors that like really made a lasting impression on you?  ^M00:24:16 [ Sigh ] ^M00:24:22 >> It wasn't so much the classes as it was the professors. [acknowledging noise] Yeah, I had a couple South -- for some reason I had a couple South American History courses. I don't know why I took them, but in retrospect I took them because I really liked the professor. It was interesting. It was informative. He made it fun. It -- to go. You looked forward to it.  >> Yeah.  >> I had a couple of Theater Arts classes. It was a popular professor -- Scloe -- [phonetic] Steven Scloe. [phonetic] They were fun. My father was in the theater business and so it was kind of interesting. I came -- I kind of came from that background.  >> Yeah.  >> So that was interesting. You know I had to take Organic Chemistry for Liberal Arts. You know Chemistry for Dummies.  >> Yeah. >> I had to take Math for Dummies. I had to take Biology for Dummies. [laughter] I took Psych. This is a funny story. I took Psych 101. Whatever the basic Psych course was -- I think it's Psych 101. I took it the same time I took a Biology course -- the same time.  >> Okay.  >> It was Monday, Wednesday, Friday at the same time. So I kind of alternated when I went to the other class. It was my only college D -- was Psych 101. I had no idea what the [laughter] advantage was. I needed a psychiatrist I think [laughter] after taking that class. But I got a D. [laughter] So I consider that a success story. What else? I took Humanities. I took a Birthing -- I played -- every -- I forget what day it was, but you would play intramural softball on Hub lawn. There was field and so I took a Birthing class in Health and Humanities and -- what's the building right next to the Hub lawn? Health and Humanities or Health and -- ? >> Bio Behavioral Health. Like that one?  >> Anyway, yeah I guess. If you're on College Avenue looking up at the Hub it's to the left.  >> That's BBH. I think it's that.  >> So anyway I was one person in a class of 25 women. [laughter] And it was on childbirth and [laughing] I used to go in my fraternity baseball shirt and my cleats and my baseball glove because right after the class was a baseball -- was a softball game.  >> Oh my gosh.  >> Intramural softball game. And it's funny -- I found that really, really interesting. If you've ever seen childbirth it's -- you know it's not exactly [laughing] a picnic. And some of the girls had to leave. I mean they just got ill. I actually thought it was kind of fascinating. But that's -- it all revolved around Greek life because it was fraternity baseball and it was just convenient that I took the class there. I did it on purpose so I wouldn't have to go far.  >> [laughing] Yeah.  >> In my first year, because I lived at Shunk, [phonetic] I had Tuesday, Thursday, Saturday Phys Ed and you had to take Phys Ed at the time.  >> I think you still do.  >> So Phys Ed was in Rec Hall. So if you look at the campus as a square, the northwest corner is Rec Hall and the southeast corner is Shunk -- 108 Shunk. [laughing] So can you imagine Saturday morning at eight o'clock I had to traverse from Shunk all way up to Rec Hall. In the winter it was miserable because they never closed the school. I don't care how hard it snowed, they never closed the school. It was always open. They never cancelled classes.  >> Last year was the first time they had like a snow day in the past five or six years. So that's -- >> Yeah they just never -- it's got to be an absolute, total blizzard. Everybody lives within proximity of the campus, even the professors, the teachers, and the aids. You know they all live in close proximity so they can walk to classes. So that was about it. And then I turned -- let's see I turned -- it was never a problem drinking because we all had fake IDs. [laughter] But I legitimately turned 21 in May of 69 and I graduated in June of 69. >> Oh yeah. >> So the other good point was because I started Temple in that spring term before I got into Penn State. [acknowledging noise] I took 18 credits at Temple so I started Penn State with 18 credits. So I could have graduated -- really could have graduated early but instead of taking -- I don't know -- 12 -- instead of taking 36, 37, 38 credits a year I took like 30 because I already started with 18.  >> That's nice.  >> So my father figured that out real quick -- that I was kind of cruising. [laughing] I was cruising along and he wanted me to graduate early but I didn't. By that time he stopped fighting me, you know? There's no [unintelligible] I was going to leave any time before I had to. So that was it. That was my life and my life was just -- it was so much fun. I think back -- and yet I talk to people that couldn't wait to graduate and people that would never apply to Penn State. I always thought that it was such a big institution and it offered so much diversity you could pick and choose whatever you wanted to pick and choose.  >> Yeah.  >> Rather than going to a small school where everybody kind of knew you, it might have been a little incestuous, the professors knew you, everybody knew everybody else's businesses, which I really didn't --  >> I didn't want that either.  >> Yeah, in hindsight it was a good decision because I'm kind of a private person. >> Yeah. No I -- >> So I'm glad I made that choice. >> Oh yeah, me too. It's the best decision I've made so far.  >> Great! >> I love it here. [laughs] Yeah. >> Okay, what else? >> Oh, going back to like the parties, you said -- what kind of music did you guys listen to? Like I know it's a lot different today. >> Music? Yeah, music in the 60s was Motown. It was all basically Motown. It was all the Temptations the -- I mean Motown's Diana Ross and the Supremes. It was Marvin Gaye. It was the Four Tops. It was all Motown, all rock n roll soul music out of Detroit. There were bands that were local and there were also bands in the fraternity that we brought in. There was a band called the Rondels which were -- I think they were two guys out of -- I think Lafayette. They were known as the "frat band." This was my freshman year. They went on to become Cyrkle. It was spelled CYRKLE. And they opened 56 performances by the Beetles.  >> Oh wow.  >> So they became you know really popular. And so I remember that band. Yeah, you know we would clear out the first floor -- the living room and the dining room -- we would take -- I remember as pledges we would take all the sofas upstairs, throw them up on the second floor -- clear out everything. Bands would set up. You would get your date and you would just party. If it was a football weekend you know we would go to the game in ties and jackets.  >> Wow.  >> So figure that one out. >> Yeah, that's a lot different.  >> Yeah, we would walk back to the fraternity you know? There would be cocktails and then there would be parties and then -- but you know women had to be back by one o' clock. Almost everybody walked. There were -- some people had cars. For a while I had a motor scooter -- a Vespa. My junior year I got a car. I got a little Triumph sports car. And so that was a lot of fun. My roommate had -- my roommate was -- one of my roommates in the fraternity was from Pittsburgh and he had a big Bonneville -- Pontiac Bonneville Convertible.  >> Wow! >> It was like a boat. And so if we had a social with a sorority, like on a Friday night, we would go to the sorority and load all these women into the car and then you know with the top down. [laughter] I mean it was just like -- it was like a Beach Boys concert. It was like crazy.  >> Yeah. [laughing] Wow!  >> Yeah, that was it. I really can't think of anything bad that happened to me. I tore my knee up when I went skiing one weekend in the winter -- I think of my sophomore year. I tore my knee up so I was on crutches in the wintertime.  >> Oh! >> Yeah, my sophomore year. As I was walking through campus on crutches in the wintertime.  >> Oh, yeah you were probably slipping everywhere. >> Slipping everywhere. I can remember getting drunk and falling and winding up at Riddenour. [phonetic] [laughter] Riddenour? Is that the health? Is that still the Student Health Center? [thinking noise] It was called Riddenour. It was a village. It was across the street from the Hub. >> Okay.  >> Next to the Oswald Lab. [assumed spelling] Oswald Lab, is that still there? >> I think -- >> Osmond Lab. [assumed spelling] >> Osmond Lab. Yeah. >> So I went to the Health Center and I remember I had to get a couple of stitches and I remember the doctor saying, "Have you been drinking?" And I said, "Absolutely not." [laughter] I mean of course my fraternity brothers were sitting there. They dragged me out to get stitches. We partied once at the Holliday Inn too loud. Somebody called the police and we were arrested.  >> Oh geez! >> The right side there. [unintelligible] So he was a Beta Sig. He was very popular. His wife was -- his wife owns A Town in Yelm, [assumed spelling] that magazine.  >> All right, yeah. >> It's called A Town in Yelm I think. So he came and got us. He didn't bail us out because we really weren't arrested. They kind of just dragged us in.  >> Yeah.  >> We tore one of the Holliday Inn rooms -- [laughing] tore it up a little bit. And so he got to see -- bail us out. We weren't Animal House. We weren't as bad as Animal House but we were not like Beta Theta Pi or you know some of the five year fraternities.  >> Yeah. >> But we were a fun fraternity. We were smart. We had a lot of guys who were smart, a lot of guys who went on to be you know lawyers and doctors and you know? >> Yeah, like you. >> Like me. Yes! >> Exactly. [laughing] >> Like me. Yeah. Well, you know I think if I had to give you any bit of advice; enjoy your life because it's a blink. I'm going to be 70 years old and I have no idea how fast I got here. I don't know where it went. It happens in a blink so don't worry too much about things. You know things always manage to work out. You know my mother used to say, "The sun's still going to come up tomorrow morning no matter" you now "what you do." So I always taught my kids you know it's not so much what happens to you it's how you react to it. Just remember, things could be worse. But enjoy the moment. Enjoy your time while you're there because it goes. I mean -- >> Yeah, it's already going fast.  >> Well, you're a sophomore. Is that right? >> No, I'm actually a freshman. So I'm in my second semester right now and it's flying.  >> Oh, okay. And it's flying? >> Yeah, I actually just -- >> Where are you living? >> I just joined a sorority. So I'm like just starting everything. >> Who'd you join? What sorority? >> Delta Gamma -- DG. >> A DG! All right! [laughter] All right!  >> Yeah! [laughing] >> Something is -- I'm trying to get up there one of these days. I have a spring week. You know I told you a spring week -- it's like this carnival they had every spring.  >> Yeah. >> I actually have a second place trophy in my house [laughter] when we were working with DG. It's funny that you said that. So I'll have to return it to the sorority. >> What frat were you in? >> I think it's called Beta Sigma Beta now.  >> Yeah. Okay. >> It was -- when I was there it was Beta Sigma Row, but they changed it to Beta Sigma Beta.  >> Yup. Hu. That's funny.  >> It was 255 East Fairmount. [assumed spelling] >> Yup. I have friends in that so that's cool. >> Fairmount and [unintelligible]. They used to have the 5 5 500. >> I don't know. >> Yeah they had this 5 5 500. It was -- the first year was my senior year -- where each fraternity had an entry and they had to run through town drinking beer. [laughter] And you know they had a circuit through campus to five or six bars. Chug a you know big glass of beer, go to the next one, chug a big glass of beer and then run back up Locust Lane [assumed spelling] [laughter] from town. [laughing] It ended across the street at the Lloyd Thai Row. [phonetic] They called it the 5 5 500. And our entry was -- there was a guy named John Fox. [assumed spelling] Where are you from? What's your hometown? >> Outside of Pittsburgh.  >> So you wouldn't know. It's -- in Philadelphia there's a big mall -- a big pavilion. It's called the Fox Pavilion. So his father was a mall developer. And John Fox ran for University President -- student president -- but he lost by a few votes. And he was our entry. He was a big guy. And he gets to about -- he comes chugging up Locust Lane and he's actually in the lead. [unintelligible] in the lead and he gets to I guess [sighs] almost 100 yards from the finish line and he collapsed [laughing] and throws up.  >> Oh no. [laughing] >> [laughing] And every girl rushed to his aid and picked him up. [unintelligible] drag some bodies by their feet. You know they dragged them along.  >> Yeah. [laughing]  >> And we drag him up to the finish line but he didn't finish first. So that was -- if there's still a 5 5 500, the first year was spring of 69. [laughter] So -- >> Well, I'll have to look into that.  >> So that's it. I don't know what else to tell you. I don't know what else to -- >> No! >> I'll tell you -- I'll encapsulate the four years.  >> Yes.  >> The first two years I learned about nothing but the fraternity and my life and having a good time and partying and socially exploring my life because I was always the youngest in my class. And so I was really a little bit socially awkward. But you know luckily I caught up pretty quickly. But the funny thing is, the war -- the Vietnam War -- and I guess you can read about it, you don't need me to tell you about it. If you see The Post -- the movie The Post -- you'll understand that the war was unwinnable and yet the government kept sending troops over and young men kept dying. And so that's where the violent protests started in the early 70s. And that's you know Watergate and Nixon resigning. And you can read that history yourself. I don't need to tell you that. [agreeing noise] But come my junior year life began to change because people -- instead of worrying about the fraternity and worrying about having a good time -- they really became -- really began to worry about themselves and their future because it wasn't fun anymore. You really had to worry about; were you going to go off to war? Were you going to go off to Vietnam? And it was 68 where everybody's life really started to change. And I think that was one of the reasons I applied to Dental. I just applied -- again, I applied to Pitt and Temple Dental School. And Temple -- I didn't even have enough science credits because I was a Liberal Arts Major. And so I remember going for my interview and the Dean saying, "You don't have enough credits." But I told him -- I reminded him that I did well on the aptitude test -- the Dental Aptitude Test. And so I got in. But then you know I hated dentistry so that's why I became an Oral Surgeon. I'm far more interested.  >> Yeah. >> But if I had to encapsulate; that's what happened in 68. The world started to change. It really did. People just began to worry about their lives you know their wellbeing. Parents started to worry about their sons. You know sons started to worry about themselves. You know there was some people -- my brother -- I have an older brother who did not -- definitely didn't want to go to Vietnam and he was going to. He was in medical school and he was going to go to Vietnam in the Marine Medical Corps. They happened to be putting doctors on helicopters, flying them into war zones. Well, he didn't want to do that for sure. So he joined the Submarine Service. So people -- I mean you know did I have an advantage? I did. You know am I a bit embarrassed? Not really. You know I mean -- you know good for me and I guess I'm sorry. But I'm not -- I don't want to be apologetic.  >> Yeah. >> Did I play the system?  >> No. >> No, I don't think so. I did what was best for me. >> Yeah. >> It worked out -- that's how the world started to change in 1968. People really started to worry about themselves. The protesters -- did I view protesters as you know idiots? No, I didn't care if they wanted to protest. That's fine. I didn't care. I didn't yell at them, but that wasn't me. I was not about the protests and I was not about the sit-in and I was not about to carry signs and scream and yell. That just wasn't me.  >> No. Yeah. That's awesome. All right.  >> So, what other questions? Anything else? >> No. I think we're about good unless there's anything you have left to say.  >> No. So if you go to the library and you go to the section where they have the yearbooks, the [unintelligible].  >> Okay.  >> Look up 1969. You'll see my picture.  >> Okay.  >> Go to Beta Sig. Go to the fraternity section. You'll see a couple of my pictures in the Beta Sig photos.  >> Okay, I will. [laughing] >> And do you want me to send you something? I mean I'll have to go look. I'm sure I have some old photos of the campus and stuff. I mean, does that interest you? Or not really? >> Yeah, if you have time. Like don't go out of your way for it, but if you have them that'd be great.  >> I'll find them and scan them and I'll text them or email them off to you. >> Yeah, that'd be awesome. Thank you.  >> All right. Anything else I can help you with? >> I think that's all. Thank you so much.  >> You're welcome. Listen, if there's anything else give me a -- you know give me a shout. >> Yeah. >> I'm more than happy to help you. >> You have a class every Tuesday afternoon, is that right? >> Yeah.  >> Or something. They sent me your syllabus. [unintelligible] Maybe I'll try -- yes.  >> Yeah. >> Hold on, let me see. I think I have it in front of me. Wait a second.  ^M00:44:53 ^M00:44:59 >> Do you think it's 408? >> It's the professor taught History 197 lectures are held Tuesday from 4:35 to 5:50 in Wartick Lab [phonetic] 108 Wartick Lab.  >> Yup.  >> All right, I'm going to try to make it up there. Maybe in April. I'll send you a text if I come up. We'll meet, okay? >> Yeah, for sure. All right, that sounds great. >> All right, well I hope everything is okay. Good luck to you. Enjoy your time there. That's all I can say to you. It's a lot of fun.  >> I know. Thank you. >> That's the advice I gave my son and he had a great time. He had a super time when he was there. Call me if you need me for anything. Okay? >> Okay, thank you so much.  >> All right, you're welcome. Have a good day and have a good time. All right? >> Thank you. It was nice talking to you.  >> Nice talking to you Allison. [assumed spelling] Take care.  >> All right, you too. Bye. >> Bye, bye.  ^E00:45:43

Interview by Bruce Beckman

>> All right, so we'll start by stating our names.  So my name is Bruce Beckman and I'm the interviewer and your name? >> And I'm Steve Brose and I'm the interviewee. >> So what years did you attend Penn State? >> I arrived here in the fall of 1965 and I graduated in, I think, spring of 1969. >> OK.  Why did you choose Penn State for your university education? >> I was first-generation college, and my parents had modest income, and to their everlasting-- to my everlasting gratitude for them, they were amenable to paying out-of-state tuition to a state university.  I was from New Jersey and too many of my friends were going to Rutgers, and I thought that Penn State was a step up from Rutgers, I still do, and it was a decision that I've never regretted. >> I was in the exact same situation.  What was your major at Penn State? >> I was a political science major.  I think though if I look back at my transcript, I would find that there were more history courses than political science courses, which is not to say that I didn't enjoy political science, I did right from the beginning, but I've realize that I had at least as equally strong an affinity for history, and so I did a lot of both of them. >> Did you ever consider double major? >> You know, that wasn't a big thing back then.  Today, there's no question that I would have done that probably in those two areas.  But no, I never did consider it, and we really didn't even have minors, at least not that I was aware of.  So I just took a lot of courses. >> Right.  Were-- Was there one particular course or professor that had a lasting impression on your studies? >> Yeah, there were a couple, one in political science and one in history.  There was a professor of history by the name of Stebbins, who I took two courses from both constitutional history courses, which was really never much doubt, but it solidified my interest in going to law school eventually.  And he was simply terrific.  I mean I learned because I wanted to learn from him and I really enjoyed it.  The other was a political science professor, my adviser.  I believe I was his first advisee, I think he was brand new, the guy who became legendary here named Ed Canes [assumed spelling].  And I also give him a substantial degree of the credit for my being able to afford the law school that I got into because he worked harder than he needed to on my behalf in terms of getting me financial aid for law school, so enormous gratitude to both of them. >> Did you have a particular area or study than-- that you were more interested in?  When you were within that, like, was it always in the [inaudible]?  Did you also find the history [inaudible]? >> You know, there was a brief time when I thought that I might be interested in grad school in history, but I always going to law school when I think back on it and when I really thought about it at the time.  That was kind of a career path that I had assumed from way back. >> Did you have any particular music that you found interesting to play? >> Interesting is probably the wrong word because certainly music-- I have listened to a lot of music.  You know, we're talking the mid to late '60s.  And, you know, it was a dynamic period for rock and roll.  And, you know, I was and remain a very, very big fan of the Beatles.  I was listening to The Beatles Channel on Siruis on my way over here today.  But I probably listened to more Motown than any other kind of music.  If you play any song today from The Temptations Greatest Hits Album, when it ends, I will begin singing the next song of the album because I've listened to it that many times. >>Did you get a chance to see anyone that was like particularly interesting you remember when you were here? >> There was pretty good acts that came through and again it was largely Motown acts.  And yeah, I mean there was-- it was all the big name acts.  It was certainly the Smokey Robinson and The Temptations and Wilson Pickett was here.  It was a great time.  There were also some great company acts that came through but nothing like with the Bryce Jordan Center. >> Right. >> I believe Bruce Springsteen would not have come to campus.  Elton John would not have to campus.  So, you know, at a-- at the next level down, it was great, but it wasn't what the Bryce Jordan Center can offer. >> Did you see Paul McCartney when you had a-- when he came here? >> I've-- No, I've Paul McCartney in Washington.  We did see Springsteen here.  My wife and I were coming back to see Elton John. >> That's fantastic.  At that time, did you get or obtain your -- how did you get or obtain your news? >> Newspapers, I mean almost entirely.  I was rarely in front of the television for the evening news.  And you know, I've always been an avid newspaper reader and was here even when it was just The Collegian and the Centre Daily Times.  For a brief period, there was a newspaper here called-- it was called the Daily Pennsylvanian or something.  And it was pretty good, it just didn't last very long, and then on weekends, at my fraternity house, we just loaded up the place with tThe New York Times, the Washington Post, Philadelphia Pittsburgh papers, and I just gorged on that for 24 hours.  But yeah, there was not-- no surprise, there was no Facebook, there was no internet news.  It was all print.  And, you know, I try to stay up as best I could with national news, as well as the local stuff that you could get the-- in the Centre Daily Times. >> Right.  What fraternity were you in? >> I was in Phi Sigma Kappa, the one down in Allen Street with the red shirt. >> Did you think that fraternity life was different then than it is now? >> Yes.  Yeah, I don't-- in fact, I'm here this weekend with one of my old fraternity brothers.  He's one of several-- I mean truly, literally lifelong friends that I made there.  I don't want to say it was better but I think it was different.  It was very much a bonding experience, you know.  And some of the criticisms that I know are legitimate, genuine today, it just didn't apply in my experience.  We didn't have hazing that was anything more than having to re-wax the floor, you know, after a party.  And yes, there was drinking but I-- you know, and yes there was excessive drinking, but I don't ever remember being dangerous drinking, and I don't recall any instance of sexual abuse.  It doesn't mean it wasn't happening, it just wasn't in my experience.  You know, it wasn't innocent at all, believe me, but it was-- I never felt that it was dangerous. >> So we read in class, it was like the Pennsylvania-- it was like the Penn State bylaws wherein like the women had to keep separate from the men.  Did you see that a lot where it was very segregated? >> Oh yeah.  There were women's dorms and men's dorms.  That changed dramatically in the four years that I was here.  It started out-- I may be misremembering this part, but my recollection is that there were curfews during the week that were either 10 or 11 o'clock for women.  And on weekends, the earliest I remember was 1, 1 o'clock.  In fact, my fraternity had a tradition of what we call the after war.  Basically, you drop off your dates, come back to the house at-- after 1 and open another keg.  But over the four years I was here, that went for 1 to 2 to 4.  And then I think right after I left, there were no curfews at all.  So it was a time of-- in many ways, it was a time of enormous evolution but that was one.  We never got to collect [inaudible] while I was here.  And-- You know, and the dining halls were certainly mixed.  I mean it wasn't as segregated as you might have in your concept of that term. >> Right. >> But it was definitely a men's life and a women's life. >> Right.  Did you have any experience or did you see the social life change over time because of these changes or was it still fairly static despite changes-- >> Everything got less formal.  And again, within a year after I was out, I think the rules were just gone.  And I'll give, you know, a kind of trivial example but kind of a revealing one.  When I started here, and I was at least through my junior year, people went to football games in suits, in three-piece suits.  Football games.  It didn't matter if it was snowing, it didn't matter if it was 23 degrees, people got dressed up, and your date with her heels. >> Wow. >> By the time I left, it was just starting to break and by the fall of 1969, all bets were off.  I mean it was changing that fast and that dramatically.  That was also being reflected in the social life on campus.  Everything became-- Actually it's not everything.  The trend was in the direction of less formality, not only in dress but in locations.  I mean there was just more flexibility in where people could gather. >> Right. >> And then the nature of the adults, you know, was ultimately good.  I was very envious of the people that were starting when I was, you know-- for that reason [inaudible]. >> Like, sort of base on that, but on a slightly different topic, did you see the political life changing as well and do you think it was particularly active compared to other schools here or not as much? >> In some ways, less active.  Penn State was not at the forefront of political activism by any stretch of the imagination.  Now, you've seen my resume.  You know that I went from here straight to Columbia University.  In 1968, Columbia University was shut down, and it was, you know, the front page, first story, national news-- >> Right. >> -- for a week.  And that was a place that had truly radical student activists that dominated the national news.  Penn State didn't have that.  We had student activists but they were much more at the larger-- to a large part of the Penn State community, they were considered the fringe.  And, you know, that didn't stay static for the four years I was here.  Certainly in 1965, that was the case.  By 1967, much less so.  By 1968, considerably lesser.  And by the time I left, you know, students everywhere, schools everywhere were much more politically involved both because of the war, civil rights issues. >> Right. >> Women's issues were starting.  That was really a '70s thing.  But there were changes even there.  There was a little bit more attention being paid to it.  But all that said, by the-- you know, when I left Penn State, I was aware and interested in all those things.  But my first day on the Columbia campus was shocking because those issues dominated there, and they never really did dominate here when I was here. >> So did you-- based on that, you didn't or did consider yourself particularly politically involved in? >> Oh, I think I was more politically involved than certainly the most of my fraternity brothers.  But you know, political involvement meaning that I certainly was more interested in current affairs, issues, and political issues.  And the 1968 campaign for presidential campaign was something that I've in a very modest way try to be involved with.  But that was kind of the extent of most people's involvement at that point.  The much more intense and radical involvement were on other campuses and typically in bigger cities.  You know, it was San Francisco, it was New York-- >> Right. >> -- it was-- I'm blanking on what some other places were, but that's how I associated.  Those were things for urban campuses and that's why I was pretty excited about going to Columbia-- this place which I love.  There was an excitement about seeing that other piece of the academic pie. >> Right.  So after you left Columbia, you went to Georgetown, right? >> No. >> Oh. >> No.  After I left Columbia, I went to work and I've been working at the same law firm.  Actually, I worked for a federal judge for a year, but then-- in New York.  But then I went to Washington and I've been working in the same law firm ever since in 19-- or excuse me, in 20-- what was the year I did that-- 2007 or 2008, I decided to go back and get a master's degree. >> Oh, OK. >> So it was pretty late, late in my career that I did a master's degree.  I was doing that part time while working and I got that degree from George Washington University in 2013. >> So someone who was able to see campus life [inaudible] Penn State life, did you see-- do you see it as radically different since you're still-- you were involved in both the 1960s campus life and modern campus life?  Do you think that it's-- Do you see the political differences? >> I-- You know that's pretty invisible to me.  When I'm up here, it's really only to a limited degree of my involvement to students, much more with faculty and staff and the administration, and that kind of thing.  So I'm not a good witness on that topic.  You know, it's-- my guess is that it is a much more political aware and involved campus than it was at least early in my time here.  But others would have a better window into that than I do. >> Right.  All right, there was so much occurring in the late 1960s such as the first moon photos from space or the student protests or the presidential election in 1968, what were your particular interests in that at that time? >> My interests were largely political.  I was pretty committed to the idea of not having Richard Nixon be elected president even the first time.  And, you know, it took me a while-- it took the country a while to consider alternatives to President Johnson.  When he said, you know, made his announcement that he was not going to seek re-election, many, many students gravitated immediately and instinctively to Eugene McCarthy.  That was never my direction.  I was much more interested in and inclined to want to see Robert Kennedy become the next president.  And it would-- the little that I could do to at least get people here interested in that outcome.  You know, without any pride in this at all, I was far too uninterested in things like civil rights and the war other than as a political issue.  But they weren't-- >> Right. >> You know, I wish they had been more horror issues to me to my psyche than they were.  They were much more viewed by me as political issues rather than fundamental issues.  That was a mistake. >> Right.  So what were your thoughts with the Kennedy Assassination then since you were more a little more involved in that? >> Yeah.  I'm going to leap ahead to something you're probably going to ask later on, but that was easily the single most memorable event of my four years here other than meeting the woman who became my wife just in case she ever sees this.  Yeah, that event was really a critical light for me.  In fact, I have such distinct memories that may even be wrong, but I have very distinct memories of being up-- you know, [inaudible] I think it was in early June of '68.  We were still here.  I mean classes ran much later in the year than they do now. >> OK. >> And I was up writing, as I recall, writing a term paper.  It was after midnight and I had the radio on because I was listening to the Pirates playing the Dodgers.  And if my memory is right, that was the night that Don Drysdale was going for his seventh consecutive shut out to the Dodgers.  Somebody should look that up and see if I'm right, it was the same night.  But I have this confluence of writing-- I think it was a history paper, listening to the pirates and the dodgers, and the news broke in that Bobby Kennedy had been shot.  I-- My first thought was who among my fraternity brothers should I wake up and get down there to the television with me and found one guy who was pretty interested and involved politically.  And that basically ended the semester, I mean not just from me but from the campus.  I mean that was a defining event for that semester.  But yeah, that was the single most dramatic moment of 1968 for me.  The Kennedy Assassination was earth-shattering.  That of course rocked many, many urban areas.  State college was not one of those-- >> Right. >> -- places but that obviously affected us here too.  But the Kennedy Assassination for me hit very, very close to home. >> So, are there any other major events like in the world or politically that like you went, you and your-- the other students went through at that time that you think were particularly interesting? >> Well, you know, some of those actually came a little later, like the Kent State shooting and the expansion of the war.  But '68, you know, the biggest things going on in the world of news that affected us here were the King assassination, Kennedy assassination, and the growing number of people that were being drafted and killed.  It's really hard to describe the impact on the-- of the draft on college juniors and seniors. >> Right. >> A very large number of my friends were in ROTC.  And they were there, you know, they enrolled in that early on in their college careers long before Vietnam became the dominant thing that it became.  And so, you know, they weren't doing it for, you know, for reasons related to the war as much as for the financial aid that they got out of it and because they, you know, to varying degrees, wanted to serve.  By the time we get to 1968, they know they're going to Vietnam.  Now they're going to go as officers for better or worse.  And there were plusses and minuses to being an officer.  For those of us that were not in ROTC, we're looking to be drafted.  And the perception was if you get drafted, you're very likely to be killed.  And the impact of that on day-to-day life was pretty extraordinary.  You know, we then, a little bit later on, this was after '68, my recollection is-- and I can't be wrong about the year, it's either '69 or '70, the lottery went into effect.  I don't know if you guys know anything about the draft lottery.  But just picture this scene.  Everybody sitting around and on television, they're drawing birthdays out of the big bowl like, you know, for the-- power ball.  And it'll pick out-- the first ball that comes out is-- I'll make, you know, July 12th.  Well, everybody whose birthday is July 12th is the first people to be draft.  And they worked their way through 365 days.  And the basic perception was that if you were in the top 150, you're going.  If you're in the bottom 150, you're not going.  And if you're in the middle 50 or so, you're in the uncertain.  And so every single person's life that was in the draft lottery was affected by a golf ball or a ping-pong ball. >> Right. >> And affected not in, you know, in marginal ways but in life or death ways.  So there was a lot of anxiety, a lot of-- >> Right. >> You know, handling a lot of crying, a lot of happiness, and a lot of sadness.  But that's a little after 1968 so we digress. >> It's fine.  Do you think that that changed the way people were concerned about the word on campus because you talked about how much anxiety there was day to day in 1968?  Do you think that continued when the lottery system was implemented here? >> Oh yes.  Oh absolutely.  And by then also, you know, as you get from 1966 to '67 to '68 and beyond, the sentiment against the war turned so dramatically.  You know, in 1965, if I'm remembering right, maybe 1966, my freshman year, General Maxwell Taylor came to campus, and he was-- I can't remember exactly what he was at the time.  He may have been our ambassador in Vietnam, but he was a four-star general and he was very central to the war effort.  And he was here as a popular figure coming to explain, you know, why we were there and how it was going, and why student protests were not a particularly helpful thing.  And it was very supportive crowd on a college campus.  If he had come in 1967, he would have faced real antagonism. >> Yeah. >> And so all of that was changing very dramatically over the four years.  By the time you get to '69 and '70, it would be hard to find real cadre of supporters of the war on this or any other campus.  I mean it really turned that quickly.  And so that meant that people were both anxious about their own situations but also were increasingly coming to the view that they were going to be putting their lives at stake for a cause they didn't believe in.  So that, you know, that's a ground changing thing.  It's one thing if you think you're going to be drafted and you're going to fight Hitler and save Western civilization.  It's another if you think you're going to put your life not just at risk but in serious harms way in order to pick one side of the civil war that's really kind of none of our business.  And without necessarily suggesting the correctness of that view, that's what a lot of people were thinking and that wasn't the case in 1965.  The other thing that was happening was that-- it was-- and this is really what I saw when I got to Columbia.  It was a growing, I'll call it industry, but that's just people making money off of it, but maybe they were, maybe they weren't.  But I'll say it again, industry in helping people avoid the draft.  Counseling for how you could either by exploiting defects that you had or by having someone invent them, fail your physical, or there were various things that at the time, they would get you excluded from the draft including being gay.  How do you get to Canada if you really just wanted to leave the county?  How you could qualify as a conscientious objector?  And the rules kept toughening on that.  How do you get one of those very desirable student deferments after you graduated in college?  Because there was a deferment while you were on college.  As the years after '68 moved on, various things stopped being deferments likely being married, like having children, like being in grad school.  Those were just kind of nice things to put on your form, but they work to keep you out of Vietnam all the time.  So, a longwinded answer to that question. >> So, one of the other big things that happened in 1968 was the Tet Offensive.  So as someone who is definitely more politically-- world and like involved in culture than most people, do you think-- what were your perceptions of the Tet Offensive reading in the news? >> Well, you know, that's helped for me to put myself back in because I just this year read a, you know, 400-page book about the Tet Offensive.  So what I thought then and what I think now are just merged too much. >> Right, right. >> Yeah, I-- if I were being honest with myself, Tet Offensive was a phrase that was, you know, it became part of the air, I mean we all knew about the Tet Offensive, but I probably couldn't have told you what was happening in Hue at the time. I can now because I did read this book. >> Right. >> But then, it was, you know, it was a shock because we had been told over and over and over again that we were the winning the war that, that it was just a matter of time that the North Vietnamese were losing their stomach for it.  That, you know, a few more rounds of aerial carpet bombing would be all it would take.  And then out of the blue, this incredible offensive comes that attacked one of the most historical holding-- holding is the wrong word, but historic and culturally significant cities in Vietnam and showed the vulnerability of South Vietnam to the Northern invasion.  As opposed to, you know, just trying to clean out subversives and guerillas and that kind of thing.  And that was shocking.  But-- And ramped up very dramatically the interest in finding a way out of this stuff that then translated to those who were making decisions.  But yeah, the Tet Offensive was a big deal, but I think it was more, for-- you know, for someone like me, it was more a phrase than something that I could have described very well.  But again, that's harder for me to know now because I know more about it now than I did then. >> Do you think it changed your perception at all of the leaders who were telling you that they're-- it was all going well? >> No question.  You know, you know-- Some of that also, again, if I could be perfectly honest with myself about this, was that we were hearing more from others that that's what we should be thinking.  Let me unpack that a little bit.  You know, I grew up in a house and a generation where you trusted your government.  And we really never had any reason to doubt that.  I mean, the people, we elected.  I mean, why wouldn't we trust them?  And so, Vietnam was an affirmation of that.  We had good-- We were told and therefore we believe we had a good reason to be there.  We were told and therefore we believed that we were going to be successful.  And that if we weren't successful, it would be enormous danger to western civilization because of the so-called domino theory.  You know, as the body counts grew and as the war just kept dragging on and it was, you know, more and more-- not just more and more, tens and hundreds of thousands of more draftees were being sent.  And the end didn't seem to be in sight.  And the reasons for it seem to get more obscure.  You know I won't pretend that I figured that out.  What I can tell you is that a lot more people were seeing that and I started paying attention to that.  But, you know, I don't-- I just don't know how many people figured it out on their own. >> Right. >> But it became a much more acceptable view.  And really, for the first time in my life that would be acceptable to question the government.  And I don't think that's yet to turn around. >> So, you said you didn't-- you did most of your reading in the news, did you feel that-- did you have any experience [inaudible]-- >> Yeah.  And, you know, that was probably more in the summers.  And I-- my memory just isn't that fresh on whether I was watching the evening news.  My recollection is that I wasn't doing a lot of that or probably the 11 o'clock news, but that was local news.  But in the summers, I for sure was watching either [inaudible] in Berkeley.  And, you know, they were voices of authority.  And that's another example of what I was trying to say that as people like them started to question what they were hearing from the government, it had to have an impact on people like the [inaudible] and like Americans more broadly.  You know, I-- it was certainly the other view.  There was-- You know, the country elected Richard Nixon twice, you know, so it's not as though the distrust in the government happened overnight and in a majority even.  But it became much more acceptable to have that view.  And I, you know, if anything can be said to be a land-- wrong word, a ground breaking and cataclysmic change that hasn't reversed itself, that's it. >> So as someone who read more newspapers then, do you think there was a big difference between than the actual newspapers that you were reading in the local newspapers? >> Just in attention.  By that, what I mean is, you know, the Centre Daily Times was not going to be the source of breaking news on whether the government was telling the truth about the progress of the war.  He needed the New York Times for that.  And frankly, in my recollection, it was only the New York Times because I know the other papers were playing catch up to them.  There's a movie out now called 'The Post" that is about the Pentagon Papers which was later on-- it was-- that was in the '70s, the early 70's but-- where The Post broke the story and-- or excuse me-- like I said The Times broke the story and the movie is about The Post playing catch up.  While The Post is playing catch up, the rest of the country was playing catch up with The Post.  That was certainly true of the local papers here, you know, they're pretty far down in the food chain.  So, yeah, it was The New York Times that was-- that's what mattered.  And they had all the great reporters. >> Did you feel there's a difference in diversity of opinion then between students who were writing as you were reading the daily collegian and the national news?  Because we've read some of them like The Daily Collegians from 1968 and they were very political at times.  Did you feel that they were-- >> I don't remember that.  I honestly don't remember.  I-- If I had gone to my head and I hope I don't hear [laughs], I would have said the Collegian was completely apolitical in that time.  I don't remember it that way.  But that's-- obviously I misremember it.  That's not what I was getting my political views. >> Right.  So, what interest did you develop at Penn State or before you arrived on campus? >> Well, I've always been interested in politics.  You know, as a little boy, in fact one of my earliest recollections of television was watching a political convention at my grandmother's house.  And it was the-- it was one Eisenhower conventions.  I can't remember if it was '52 or '56, but I was really, really young at '52, so it must have been '56.  And that's followed through as an interest of mine ever since and still is.  And I've always been interested in history, and those things were nurtured here, and I've never been interested in some other things, and those were not [laughs].  I was never going to a scientist, I was never going to be an engineer, I was never going to be a botanist, you know?  And, you know-- So, you know, the then perception in some quarters of Penn State is an ag school should have warned me off.  It didn't and that's to my everlasting benefit. >> What is one suggestion that you would offer to encourage students at Penn State? >> You know, it's-- that's so easy to start pontificated with a question like that and I'm not criticizing the question, criticizing where I'm probably going to go with it.  I had a spectacular time when I was here.  I mean, I enjoyed myself.  I think-- I was going to say almost every day.  That's probably understated.  I think I loved my time here.  I may have loved it too much.  I wish and this is another way of answering your question, what I wish I had done differently.  I wish I had-- I wish I worked harder here.  I wish I had gotten more involved in some activities that I would have really enjoyed like the Collegian.  I was a good student.  I did well enough to get into a really good law school.  And therefore, when I think about that kind of question, which I do occasionally, I end up saying to myself, and if you would've worked harder, how would your life have been better or different today.  And the answer is, it wouldn't have been.  But I would've gotten more out of my time here.  And that's-- I guess, if I have any bit of advice for students, it's-- and I don't know want to sound like everybody's parent.  But take advantage of your time here.  The-- You know, it's not just about going to class and then having a good time on the weekends, which is to a large degree what I did.  There are so many opportunities for personal enrichment that you will never have again and at least not without working pretty hard at making the time for them and finding the opportunity here.  They are here and you have the time for them if you choose to use it that way.  I-- You know, that-- I just wish I had done much more than I did to maximize my time here other than with classes and friends. >> Do you think some of that comes from your background of someone who is out of state who felt lucky enough to be able to come here or-- >> You mean the way I did it or the way I wish I had done it? >> The way you did it. >> No.  No.  I think it was just my level of maturity when I was here.  I was very young when I got here.  I was 16 when I got here.  And I was much more grown up by the time I got to law school.  A very different experience for me.  And again, I'm not regretting a day here.  I just regret my use of some of the hours of my days here. >> Was turning-- Was going here when you're 16 usual or very unusual? >> Yeah, it was pretty unusual. >> Yeah. >> It was pretty unusual.  And, you know, I mean it's just it was how old I was.  It's not anything that led me here or anything else.  It's old I was. >> Did it then give you a different perspective being a little bit younger than everyone or was it just-- >> No.  It just made me a little bit younger.  I don't know.  And maybe not talked with the girls about how old I was when I first met them. >> All right. [Laughs] What experiences-- >> I told you we were going to take some weird turns by the time we've done this interview. >> No, it's fine [laughs].  Why don't we go with as someone who has spent a significant amount of time of your life assisting Penn State students and the Penn State community, what were your motivations for coming back so often? >> I can't think of a place I am more comfortable being than here.  And I haven't lived here in almost 50 years.  You know, there's a certain point on the road from Washington to here that when I make that turn, I just relax.  This is a place that is extraordinarily important to me and as I've mentioned before, my wife.  I owe-- everything would be an overstatement, but I owe an enormous amount to what Penn State prepared me for and the opportunities it's given me.  You know, I'm no saint but I believe in paying back debts and I consider this a debt, which makes it sound like an obligation, and that's not how I've ever felt.  I've always felt that whatever I can do for this place is something I'm doing good for me.  You know, I have yet to learn the skill of saying no to whether it's Dean Welch or Chris Gamble or the-- or Michael Kulikowski, the head of the history department or-- you know, if somebody asked me to do something for Penn State, I still consider it a privilege more than an obligation.  I've really enjoyed working with students to the extent I have. ^M00:40:02 I've had a series of mentees that, to varying degrees, I've been able to help a bit.  Some I've been utterly unable to help, but that's been a source of frustration.  And-- But the ones that I can, God, it's just so rewarding.  It just feels great and makes me want to keep doing that.  And I'm so fortunate to be able to do something with the financial crisis that my wife and I have been able to do that, you know, it's-- again, I consider that a privilege rather than an obligation. >> So, I think it was two years ago, I went to one of the civil war lecture series, I think you sponsor from getting that-- >> Yes. >> So, what-- did you have any general or was it just your interest in history to got you interested in doing something-- >> You know that-- Yes and no.  The yes part is, when my wife and I were ready to start doing some larger things in terms of philanthropy, we agreed that it would be in the history department.  My personal area of focus in history has always been the late 19th century and 20th century.  That's just the period that has intrigued me the most.  So, as we're starting to think about this stuff, Penn State is creating the Civil War Era Center, now with the Richards Center.  And the person who was putting that together, [inaudible] and Gary Gallagher called me and said I understand you might be interested in doing something in history, would you be interested in doing something with the civil war [inaudible].  So, we talked about that for a while.  I never had any particular interest in the civil war.  Just wasn't my-- You know, I wasn't one of those kids that set up the, you know, the north and the south with a little peephole and played out battles.  It wasn't my thing.  But I was persuaded by him that this was an opportunity for Penn State to do something that wasn't being done anywhere else, certainly in the north.  There were Civil War Era centers in the south.  There was none in the north.  Gettysburg has a wonderful military history thing.  But this was going to be about the entire era from, basically the Mexican War through reconstruction and beyond.  And even in the south, there was nothing-- the breadth that they had in mind here.  That got me excited not but because of the civil war but because of the potential benefit to Penn State.  So, we then talked through various things that we might be able to do, some of which were too rich for my blood.  But we've been able to do later on.  But this lecture series sounded great to me, to bring, you know, absolute topnotch scholars from other places to a state college.  A, to see what we've got here and to share what they do here where I could go and sit in the audience and silk this stuff up got me really exited.  So, yeah, we did that.  It's been a tremendous success, we've had some amazing lecturers, you know, that'd be truly internationally known scholars of the Civil War Era in a breathtaking variety of talks, not so in military or political even, much more on a cultural side of the Civil War Era.  And it's been one of the best things we've ever done.  I love those lectures. >> So, kind of based on that, did you have a particular of history that you find the most fascinating? >> Well, you know-- And I think this probably would say that whatever I really dug into, I would find that interesting because I've know-- I've probably read now more civil war history than I have any other period.  The time that gets my juices flowing the most is still the late 19th century and 20th century.  I read tremendous amount the '60s.  I probably read more words about Richard Nixon than I have any other person on the planet.  And so, yeah, I mean, right now reading Walter Isaacson's biography of Leonardo da Vinci.  I can't put that book down.  So, you know, I guess I'm just interested in history.  But there's only so many hours and I try to pick up stuff that I think will interest me and that tends to be civil war and later. >> So, do you characterize yourself as like an avid reader or someone who just reads--  >> Yeah.  Oh no, no.  I read a lot.  One of the ways I'm able to do that is I ride the metro every day.  And the metro-- when it's running perfectly, I've got about half an hour ride home that I use to read a book.  On-- But many more days when it's not running perfectly, I have a lot of time to read a book.  And, you know, even a 600 to 700 page book can go pretty fast when you've got time every day to read it, and that's what I do.  Yes, I am an avid reader of history. >> Do you think that interest in history and political science has allowed you to see things in a different perspective because of your interest in book and west people or-- >> You know, I couldn't point anything specifically, but I have to believe that's true.  You know, it's all about, you know, finding analogies and find-- I mean, that's what I do for a living.  That's what lawyers do is finding, you know, about your particular situation, what's been like that in the past, and what's unlike that in the past that you're led to a different decision.  And-- You know, so it's something I've been trained to do.  So I have to believe that the stuff I read in history has affected by way of looking at things in current events.  But I'd be really hard pressed to come up with a single example of where that's really the case.  And it does drive me crazy when people use terms like unprecedented, because I'm pretty sure that I've read something that could be analogized.  I mean, even things like the unprecedented level of hostility and uncivil discourse today.  Well, no.  If you read about the Jefferson-Hamilton Era or if you read about the years leading up to the civil war, it's pretty nasty stuff going on them too.  And indeed the divisions in the country were such that in one case almost and the second case did lead to a division in the government.  You know, a separation into two nations.  And we're not there yet.  So, you know, it's the lack of historical perspective that bothers me more than, you know, any degree of pride in exceptional historical perspective.  But I do think that people don't enough history and don't try to understand well enough how other periods were more likable, if not today and unlike.  And what lessons can we learn from that.  So, yeah, I think really history is a very valuable fact. >> Do you see 1968 as a year that's followed those analogies towards modern life?  Or do you think a lot of that has yet to reappear?  Tough question? >> Yeah.  I haven't really thought about that.  You know, one thing I learned too earlier is that I think 1968 was a watershed year in terms of-- Well, I think it's sort of a culmination of a watershed evolution in terms for people's willingness to distrust the government.  And I think that's something that we're still living with today and made forever.  It's hard to say.  And we really saw then the consequences of trusting the government when that may not have been warranted.  That's not-- you know, I'm not trying to suggest we shouldn't trust the government.  All I'm saying is that the instinctive trust of the governing is gone. >> Right. >> And, you know, I think if I had to pinpoint one thing about, you know, I'll say 1960, and really mean that period or that era. >> OK. >> You know, history doesn't break that neatly into 12 periods or even 10-year decades. >> Right. >> The '60s are really, in my view, 1965 to about 1974, that's the '60s.  Maybe '63 when the Beatles came over, I mean it was about that.  But 1960, '61, '62 bear no relationship to 1968.  None, zero, and 1972, '73, Watergate, you know, Pentagon Papers, all that, do bear resemblance of 1965, right. >> Right. >> So, 1968, yeah, it's a big deal.  I'm so glad you guys are studying it.  And I would love to see what comes out of it.  I don't know if there's going to be, you know, a website or--  >> Yeah.  There's a website. >> -- or something that is going to pull together the rambling folks, like people like me.  But, you know, I think it was-- out of the general now, it was a very difficult time to live to '68-- On New Year 1969, people breathe the sigh of relief.  It was such a miserable year between the assassinations and the riots and the war.  You know, it was a year everybody wanted just plain over.  '69 had, you know, a lot going for it.  '69 had the moon landing.  '69, you know, had Woodstock. >> Right. >> You know, '69 had just had a lot of good things.  That '68 had almost no analogies but except for that Drysdale 7 [inaudible].  '69 had the Mets, the Miracle Mets were 1969.  They will say that was a better year.  You know, but '68 was tough and I'm not sorry I lived through it, but I sure didn't want to have another one like it. >> So, I guess we'll change direction a little bit for the last 10 minutes of this. >> Yeah. >> So, you talked about how Penn State fostered your, like, or preexisting desire to go into a legal field.  So, what made you choose the field you ended up going into?  And do you think that Penn State helped you decide that more specifically or did you decide before or after? >> I don't know if you have any interest in going to law school, being a lawyer.  What I can tell you is that those decisions are rarely ones you make.  I went to a larger law firm.  And if I had gone into them and said, "Here is what I want to do."  They probably would have chuckled and said, "Well, that's great.  Now here is what you're going to do at least for this first project because that's what we have that we need your help on.  We'll see how things go from there."  I had some ideas in my head of what would interest me.  Energy law which is what I ended up devoting my career to was not among them.  It was-- I didn't even know there was such a thing.  I thought that I would be much more interested in the antitrust law.  I thought that the kinds of issues that antitrust lawyers worked on would be very interesting.  I thought labor law would be something that I would be very interested in.  But there I show up, you know, day one, as this, you know, kid in his brand new suit looking for my first project.  And I was put on a case that involved a natural gas issue.  I worked on that for a while, actually for a couple of years along with some other things.  And then I was asked to get involved in this brand new Trans-Alaska pipeline that was being built and we were representing one of the owners of that.  By that time, I started to actually think that I understood some of the issues involved in those kinds of energy regulatory areas.  One of the most rewarding things you come to as a young lawyer is not always having to look stuff up, actually knowing kind of what the answer might be.  And what I have come to learn and come to believe and have counseled young lawyers about afterwards is that, that can surprise you where your areas of interests turn out to be.  It largely comes down to what you get to do and who you get to do it with.  If you like those two things, you'll keep going back for more of it whether [inaudible] antitrust or labor or energy or tax or, you know, pensions. >> Right.  For me, it happened to be energy.  And I'm still interested today in the questions that come up.  And it's very rewarding not to have to look all of them up. >> All right.  I think we've covered most of the questions.  Oh yeah, here's-- one more-- all right, so we'll ask one last question.  So after you left Penn State, you've talked [inaudible] and then another more recently, did you-- what did you feel about Penn State specifically distinguished it from the other school you have attended? >> Well, for one thing, it's the only states of the three.  I was-- like I joked at point.  I was very proud that with the Penn State had the highest out-of-state tuition in the country, I had therefore the-- I had attended the three most expensive schools in each time at that time.  GW where I was going was the most expensive private school.  Columbia had been its predecessor on that list.  And Penn State was the highest out-of-state tuition.  But as a state school, Penn State definitely had challenges, budgetary challenges and all of that.  That was pretty invisible to me as a student.  It had become much more visible to me as a donor because I don't feel that my other alma matters-- almus matter?  I'm not sure what the right phrasing of that is.  The other schools I went to had the same financial lead that Penn State does.  So, that's a big, big difference that you will appreciate more when you're out of here.  The biggest difference while there in the three school, this is just so much bigger, and has so much better football than in Columbia or-- GW doesn't have any.  It's a very different experience.  But I also experienced it differently.  You know, I was a grad student in those two places.  And I think that's a fundamental difference, when you're an undergraduate.  If I was an undergraduate at GW or Columbia, I might have had the same affinity to them as I do to here.  I don't know too people that have the same affinity to their law school or grad school than they do with their undergrad.  I'm sure there are people that are grad students here that love it more than they did their own grad school.  I, you know, I was much more serious.  I had much different motivations in those other places.  Both of which were terrific experiences for me.  And I am very grateful to both of them.  But my experience here was a defining time of my life.  And in many ways the best time of my life. >> Well, all right.  So, I guess this will be the end of the interview.  So, I am Bruce Beckman.  And you are? >> Steve Brose. >> And this is the interview for the History of-- World of 1968 class.

Interview by Reilly Ebbs

>> So, what years did you attend Penn State?

>> September of 1964 until June of 1968.

>> OK. And where are you from?

>> I am from Westbury, New York.

>> OK. So why'd you choose Penn State for your university education?

>> Interestingly enough, Joe Paterno's brother was my high school social-- a high school social studies teacher and our high school football coach. And I was discussing where to go to college with one of the gym teachers of all things. And he said, "What about Penn State?" And I said, "I really don't know about Penn State." And he directed me to George Paterno's homeroom that afternoon after school. And Mr. Paterno showed me a photo album of Happy Valley as I had never heard of, and he showed me the pictures. It seemed like a great place and I applied. He actually filled out the application because he's here for a lot of the application and my handwriting was terrible and I said I would have to take it home and have somebody else do it and he did it for me. I took it home, my father gave me a check for $25. I was accepted literally just weeks later, early admission, right after thanksgiving. And we sent in our deposit. Never visited the campus, never been to the school, it just seemed like a place I would enjoy.

>> Wow, that's awesome.

>> Yes. And when Mr. DeSalvo, who was the gym teacher, told me about it, he said that George's brother was the assistant head coach, which was true at the time. George Paterno had not become the head coach, he was the assistant head coach in 1964, he did not become the head coach until '66.

>> Mm-hmm. What was your major at Penn State?

>> Political science.

>> And did you know you were going to try the pre-law track prior to starting college?

>> Yes. Very strangely, I decided as a 12-year-old that I want to become a lawyer. It's very odd. One of my 7th grade teachers sees me as having a big mouth and being a wise guy and says, "You'd make a good lawyer." And I didn't even know what a lawyer was, and began to look at it, read books about it and a number of popular nonfiction books at the time, one by a famous lawyer by the name of Louis Nizer, another by a famous lawyer named Edward Bennett Williams, and read some fiction law stories, and thought that the fact Mr. Silver, who was my 7th grade teacher was correct. It sounded interesting and it really, for me, became a social compulsion. I was interested in becoming a lawyer out of an interest in doing socially important things and also about kind of a-- my interest in politics. And I had a-- even as a 12-year-old, had a serious interest in politics, so they kind of combined.

>> Very cool. Was there one particular course or a particular professor that made a lasting impression on your studies?

>> Certainly, in the Political Science Department, it would be Dr. Ruth Silva, with S-I-L-V-A. She was someone who I could go and talk to. I took a number of political science courses with her. She was very interesting and became known nationally later on as one of the authors of the 25th amendment to the United States Constitution regarding presidential succession, and amendment that comes, you may know, because of discussions about replacing a president if he's not competent to serve. So, she now had an influence on me. I remember her well. And actually, she assisted me in picking my law school because I was accepted at several and-- including Georgetown and George Washington. And she recommended me to go to-- suggested to me that I go to George Washington rather than Georgetown even though Georgetown was a higher rated school, because George Washington had a younger faculty, a more interesting program of interaction between the students and the community, and a better facility.

>> Interesting.

>> Yeah. So she talked to me about all that and it really caused me to pick George Washington over Georgetown.

>> Did you go to law school right after undergrad?

>> Immediately. I was a year ahead, so I started college at 17 and didn't graduate-- I graduated-- I had turned 21 the end of April and then graduated the first week or the second week of June, whatever it was. So I was young and had just turned 21, didn't even know there were bars, and then went directly off to George Washington Law School. I was drafted, it was the middle of the Vietnam War, the height of the Vietnam War. And I was drafted and had to go for a physical that fall while I was in my first year in law school and did not pass my physical so I managed to continue in law school and graduated from law school three years later at 24.

>> Wow. What music did you like if you are interested in music?

>> I am not a music person at all.

>> Really?

>> I'm-- Yes, I mean, I certainly knew The Beatles and knew who they were. I knew The Rolling Stones. I would probably say that I learned-- did learn to dance at Penn State. My big brother in the fraternity taught me how to dance. But music just is not something that sticks with me. If there's not, I kid that I suffer from what I call MADD, Music Attention Deficit Disorder. I can't listen to a three-minute song from start to finish with words if the song has words and get through it. My mind wanders away, almost no matter how good the songs are, no matter how poetic they are. Now as I've gotten older, I've gotten better at it, but I'm not somebody who ever turns on music on the radio. If I turn on the radio, it's to listen to MPR, never really listen to music on the radio, never listen to it in the dorms. Just one of those parts of everybody else's life, it seems, but it's never been part of mine.

>> Interesting.

>> Yeah.

>> Where did you get or obtain your news from in college?

>> Well, one of our professors the first year of political science or history, and I forget which it was, because I took the mandatory, whatever it was, 24 credits in political science, but I also took like 18 credits in history, I really am a history buff and still am, still read a great deal of history, required us to read the New York Times at least once a week. And variably, it started on Sundays so we would have to go down and made sure enough editions of the New York Times at one of the newspaper stands or whatever it was, stores downtown and in College Avenue, and I used to go buy the New York Times every Sunday and read it. And the Daily Collegian as I recall, well, I could be wrong about this, the Daily Collegian had some national news.

>> Mm-hmm, yes.

>> Yeah. And I did listen to the radio for news stories. But I would say primarily and oddly of course the New York Times because even then-- and I know most young people don't read newspapers today, they get their news off their phones, the internet, and all the feed. Even then, students were not reading newspapers, which is why he made a requirement for our class. And I continued it after the class. I got into reading the news and enjoying it. But again, it's partly because of my involvement in politics. When I got to campus in '64, the election was going on and I got involved with the Democratic Party and they used the carpools over the Bellefonte to Democratic Party County headquarters to make phone calls for Lyndon Johnson.

>> Cool.

>> Yup.

>> So with-- I mean speaking on that, so there's like a lot going on in the 1960s, you had the first moon photos from space to protests, the election of '68. Besides what you're talking about with the election, what particular interests did you have?

>> Did I have? Well, the war really began to define so much of what was going on campus. Originally, in '64 when I got there, the issues were about student apathy, student involvement, but also primarily about women's rights on campus and at the school. Women were by quota, there was only one female student for every 2.7 male students, OK, outside the quota for out-of-state students which I think was a limit of 7%. And then once there, girls were required to live in the dorms, they were not allowed to live in apartments, they were not allowed to visit men in apartments, they had curfews of 11 o'clock during the week and I think 12:00 or I guess 1:00 in the morning on weekends. And so the serious issues the first couple years was what was called in loco parentis. The university was acting as parents for students and thought that was their obligation. So the campus political parties, their platforms were to get rid of in loco parentis to allow girls to live off campus or at least allow them to visit men in dorms-- I mean, in apartments. There were no mixed dorms back in those days, needless to say. There were dress codes. You were not allowed to wear jeans in the cafeteria. Girls, I think-- Yeah, I think girls, when I first got there, had to wear skirts to go to the dining halls. And talk about changes in the university, they had to wear skirts and-- for student government meetings. For example, all the men put on sport jackets and ties for student government meetings all the way until my senior year and I broke that by not wearing a tie to a student government meeting. And it was kind of-- people looked at me like, what? And I said, "That's ridiculous. We're students. Why are we wearing jackets and ties? It's kind of presumptive to do that, to think that what we're doing here requires us to wear that." And so I stopped wearing a jacket and tie. And very quickly thereafter, everybody else joined in because it's a whole lot more comfortable. But we have these issues going on on campus about the female rights. And so those were kind of serious on campus at the time. There was, as I recall, before I left success in part, I don't think it was until after I left that women were allowed to live in apartments. I'm not certain of this because it'd been so many years, but I'm not even sure that they allowed women over 21 to live off campus.

>> Wow.

>> At first, when I got there in '64. I think by the time we left, they were allowed to live off campus if they were over 21. And certainly, I think the rule changed about visiting men in apartments as well. That said, needless to say, women still visited men in their apartments back during those years but they were subject to discipline and subject to being thrown out of school. And certainly, the curfew was strictly enforced. The dorm doors were locked. And I remember on more than one occasion when I was a senior living in an apartment, I've been in a fraternity, so my sophomore and junior years I lived in a fraternity house. But my senior year, we were allowed to move out of the fraternity and I lived in an apartment. There were a number of occasions where female friends of mine had stayed out beyond curfew and slept on my couch.

>> Oh my gosh.

>> Because they couldn't get back into the dorm.

>> Wow. So different, like such a different time.

>> Well, one would say, yes. The kind of views of equality at the time were very different. The reason there was a 2.7 to 1 quota was because, oh, girls don't need an education. And well, the guys needed education, they need to go to college to get jobs and to work. And their women are just going to become housewives or whatever. And just so you're aware, because it was a very different time, the smartest women in those days, and it changed not much-- not long thereafter. But in the '60s, certainly the '50s and all the way through the '60s, those smartest women went into two professions primarily, teaching and nursing. And it wasn't until the late '60s, with the Civil Rights Movements kind of advancing everybody and the rights of everybody, the Vietnam War, which women got involved in, in demonstrating against that they began to say, wait a minute, we can do other things. So that law school classes, for example, when I started at law school at George Washington, there was 420 students and it was less, just a little less than 10% of the law school students were women. And by-- certainly by 1980, almost every law school in the country was 50-50 male and female. And as you know, of course today, almost every college in the country, the majority of students are female.

>> Right.

>> So it was a very different time by way of equality back, you know, back then. And I think the Vietnam War really did play a role in it, demonstrations against the war. And Penn State was not a hotbed as compared to places like Columbia or Berkeley. But it affected the campus and affected the student government. And we took an interest in what was going on. We passed-- And I was looking through my old scrapbook which I haven't looked at I'm sure in close to 50 years when I graduated. And there were-- the student government at Penn State, and I remember this one specifically, we put in a resolution to condemn the draft. And we condemned the draft because at that time-- today, there's a volunteer army, but in those days, you were drafted. And the draft was geared to protect the wealthy and the educated. If you went to college, you got a draft deferment. And we actually protested and passed a resolution at Penn State, saying that their draft-- the draft was clearly discriminatory because if you had the money to go to college educated and had that background, you got a draft deferment for four years of college, which discriminated against the poor and those people who are not as educated. And we thought that was inappropriate that even though it was against your own self-interests as students, the student government passed it I think unanimously or close to unanimously to condemn the draft. And because it was Penn State and not Columbia or not Berkeley, we got serious national press in the student government for passing that resolution.

>> Oh.

>> Yeah.

>> So, what were your motivations in college?

>> My motivations, I guess it started earlier with the interest in politics. And I decided to get involved in campus politics. I ran for freshman class president and lost, but ran and then continued to be involved in student government just because I enjoyed it. I thought the political process was interesting. The campaigns were interesting. The people who got involved in the student government were also interested in politics as you may or may not be totally aware. The number of people who follow politics closely around the country is not a particularly high number. The number of people who can name their state legislators is typically less than 10%, their own state legislators they're voting for, is 10-- under 10% or 20%. People don't follow that. And I did and found as well, obviously, the other kids who were involved in government or interested in student government also were knowledgeable or aware.

>> So it was a group of people we could talk about issues, talk about the political scene in the state and the country, which was kind of a interest in motivation, meeting other people who had similar interests, friendships are developed amongst the people in student government. We hung out together. I belong to a fraternity but really my closest friends were those from the student government. So, that was a serious motivation for me. I will confess that studying was not a serious motivation. In those days, there was-- the grades were-- An acceptable grade was what was called a gentleman's A. And I had far more C's and I guess ultimately enough B's but my overall graduating average was only 2.69. And I remember being embarrassed mildly going to interview at Columbia Law School. And the professor who interviewed me said, "So what courses did you get A's in at Penn State?" And I think I only got A's in five courses, two of them were speech, one was a philosophy course, one was a humanities course. I forget what the other one was. But even my political sciences courses and I was a political science major were primarily B's. And I didn't work very hard as a student back in those days. I became a student in law school but had not been that diligent of a student in college. The flip side is that there I was, I had a 2.69 average and I was accepted as Georgetown and George Washington and Temple and whitelisted in NYU Law School and eventually got in. I'd already started at GW I think a day or two when my father called and said that NYU had called and I had whitelisted there and I was accepted. And he said, "So come home," since I lived in New York. And I said, "Nope, I'm happy here at GW," and didn't. But you couldn't getting into any of those schools today with those kind of averages. I had very good law boards just as I had very good college boards which is what got me into Penn State. So the whole grading system was different but I readily confessed I was not a devoted student. So it was not a serious motivation for my time on campus. And I knew I wanted to be a lawyer and I knew I wanted to go to law school but I was also aware enough to know that I could probably get into law school with not, you know, those superior grades, because the number of people who applied to law school back in those days was of course much less as well.

>> Right. What's one suggestion that you have then that you would offer to current students at Penn State?

>> Well, I made an observation about politics and student government at Penn State that is still true. And I guess there's two parts to it. One of my high school and actually elementary friends, high school friends, we are still friends the day we graduated together and he was involved in high school student government and then went off to the University of Massachusetts and became very involved in the student government up there while I was involved in the student government of Penn State. And I commented to him at Penn-- while I was still in college that I believed and observed that being involved in the student government and the politics on a campus as large as Penn State, which was then 28,000 undergraduates, was identical to being involved in politics in the real world. Like running campaigns for student government offices, running a student government, the way that politics operated on campus was the same as if you were running for mayor of a city, and that what worked for us would be the same. And he disagreed with that. He said, "No, no, college is very different than the real world." And people have a different view and different level of interest. And apathy was a big issue at Penn State. The student apathy, the number of people who voted was not enormous. And of course on a campus, you're not selling issues to the students that are as compelling as, you know, we're going to vote on your taxes, where your roads aren't going to be built or where your kids go to school. So apathy was an issue, but of course it's to nationally as well. And so my observation or advice was that it was the same. And as time went on and my friend became involved in politics around the country and locally and I did as well, he agreed with me and my observation continued, that it's really transferable. And part of that is, and my thought that anybody at Penn State, which is really surprising to so many people is that one person can, by their own involvement, have an enormous impact. And it's because there are so few people who want to be involved. I showed up at Penn State, there were over 4000 freshmen, 5000 freshmen, whatever it was. And I said to a couple people, "I want to run for freshman class resident. I want to get involved in the campus politics." I just found it fun in high school. And a couple of people said, "You're crazy. There's 5000 students." Well, lo and behold, it was easy. There were only three of us in the entire class who had any interest in running for freshman class president. There were not 20 people putting forward their names, 20 people with great interests. And that's been my observation through-- now I'm 70. Through, you know, my 50 years involved in politics around the country, in Maryland and elsewhere that there's not a long line of people who are interested in running for public office or being involved in campus or supporting candidates or working on campaigns. It is not something that most people think of doing or think they can have any impact doing. And my observation is because of that, if you get involved, if an individual gets involved and wants to stay involved, one can have an enormous impact. And it was two on campus, I, you know, had an impact on campus in terms of some of the suggestions I made to the student government and some of the proposals that I did. And I felt we needed the student opinion bureau which would do surveys and we did once a month. I don't think it had been more often-- yeah, that's once a month, we-- I set up a student opinion bureau. I got 10 other people who were mostly in fraternities because they had the bodies to get five more people each. And we all make phone calls on Sunday nights, we got the list of students from the university and we'd call every 10th name. And so on a Sunday night, we would call 2000 students, and serving them with just four or five quick questions. And the results of the surveys had an impact, telling we could tell the administration, this is how the students feel about this issue, about women in dorms or curfews or dress codes. And it was just my idea. My father was in market and research. And it wasn't easy to execute, and-- because we're just willing to do it. So, a long answer, but I have said it a number of times when I've come up to Penn State, that if you want to have an impact in the world, it's not that hard because there aren't that many people out there trying to do it. And that has been absolutely true in my life in politics over my adult life. And I have been very involved in the state, assisting people running for a public office in Maryland and helping the governor get reelected, get elected and then reelected and other people get elected and reelected. If you just volunteer and then do what you say you're going to do, you standout because lots of people volunteer and then don't follow through. But if you volunteer and you do what you say you're going to do, you clearly standout. So it's really easy to have an impact in the world as an individual.

>> You should write a book.

>> I should buy a book?

>> You should write a book.

>> Oh. I don't-- Thank you. I don't know-- I write poetry.

>> Oh, do you?

>> Yes, I do, I do. Actually, I wrote a poem about how I got to Penn State. It's called "The Small Bang Theory of Life" and how this gym teacher and my conversation about where I should go to college impacted my entire life obviously. I will email it you if you'd like.

>> Oh, I'd love that.

>> Yeah, yeah. I write poetry and have only for the last 20 years, it's kind of this interesting something that somebody-- a friend bought me a book of Pablo Neruda's poetry and I decided in response, having read some of poems, and he's an extraordinary poet of course, that I would see if I could write a poem about this friend and did and looked at it. And lo and behold, it was actually a poem and then I kind of got into writing poetry for myself and sharing with a friend. But a book is, you know, a large undertaking. I find so many books. And I mostly read nonfiction, have a premise that probably should be a short 60 or 80-page book but of course once you start writing on it, that would be 280 pages. So, poetry suits me more, it's shorter, and I can express my thoughts fairly quickly, whereas a book would be a lot. But thank you, thank you. And what you just asked me and what I just said was actually something I thought of in advance because of your involvement in student government. I wanted to say to you I thought at the end of the phone call, would point that out to you that it seems like while you're there and involved in the student government and involved on campus and then does it translate and it absolutely does. It translates into the real world in enormous ways and I can give you an example in my life. And as I said, I was involved as a trial lawyer running the trail or as political arm here on the state, which meant-- as a volunteer, which meant mostly going to Annapolis and testifying on legislation in the capital. We live here now. But testifying on legislating-- legislation, we're leading to our client who suffered from personal injuries or suffered to from medical malpractice for the victims of medical malpractice. So I got involved here in the legislature as well and in politics, and then got involved in people's campaigns. But in late 2006, I read Barack Obama's books and decided that I wanted to be involved with his campaign. And being me, I-- so I wanted to run his campaign here in Maryland because as a volunteer, and then was able to do it. I called my friend, Elijah Cummings, who's a congressman in early January of '07, having read the books and we talked about it and he knew Obama, I didn't. I didn't know anybody in the campaign. And I volunteered and Elijah who I'd worked on his campaigns and helped raise money for him to become a congressman and we become friends, told Obama that I'd be the right guy to help do this campaign in Maryland. And of course, I was volunteer director of Maryland for Obama. And at the end-- By the end of the campaign, we had 180,000 Marylanders who would sign up as volunteers, 18,000 active volunteers.

>> Well--

>> Yes, yes. It was an enormous effort and an enormous support. People were so excited about-- that people did get involved enormously. But having just been involved over the years, I said, I was going to do this, and lo and behold, there I am, saying I wanted to do this and got to do it.

>> Mm-hmm.

>> And which is, you know, one of the real accomplishment of my life, helping to elect the President of the United States.

>> Yeah, I would say so. That's awesome.

>> Yeah, yeah. It was really great fun, an enormous amount of other work. I knew when I said I was going to do it and it wound up being three hours a day virtually every day, some days nine and 10 hours a day. I was practicing law, you know, was still actively practicing law the entire time I was volunteer. It was an enormous amount of work but it was all worthwhile. And the other part that made it worthwhile is the friendships that grew out of it, the people I'm-- the other people that got involved with us. Also, I was involved kind of wanting it but then we had a grad student person who was one of the directors and we had a guy involved with the convention who was also a director there, so three of us ultimately. And-- But it's all the friendships that grew out of it. I'm still very close with the people mostly younger people who were involved in the campaign and it's wonderful. And that's been true throughout my life. It is the people you meet and work with who have similar interests when you're working in the same direction but it's just so nice working with an organization. We have a mission. And following through with that mission and the people you meet and then hang out with who you're on the same side with, whether it's Democratic party or-- I was the chairman of the board of [inaudible] in Maryland back in 2002, 2004, having been on the board for a number of years before that. And it's a great organization and a great mission. And the other people I worked with, it's just nice to hang out with people who are also involved in doing good things.

>> That's amazing, just the involvement.

>> Yeah.

>> The connection back to Penn State--

>> Yes. Yeah, well, we've-- you know, my involvement, I've never really gotten terribly involved with the Alumni Association or other things at Penn State. I graduated and started donating money and have my first wife I met at Penn State so we have a natural of course affinity so we always donated to Penn State. But I never really have felt engaged with the, you know, alumni or need to do that. Our involvement over time has been with-- concerned about scholarships and, you know, assisting people from economically disadvantaged backgrounds to go to Penn State. So, you know, still very much attached to Penn State though financial support. When I have spoken there, I have been introduced to Penn State, it's always been-- I've always been introduced as a distinguished alumni and I have a standard line which is absolutely accurate that I'm not distinguished by my 2.69 graduating average, I'm distinguished because I send money--

[ Laughter ]

-- which is true. But it's also true that just by remaining involved, you can have-- it can have an impact and we feel that we have. We-- Even at Penn State, I don't know if you're aware that they recently designated $100,000,000 from the endowment for matching funds for scholarships for economically disadvantaged students.

>> I did hear that and it's amazing.

>> Yes, it is amazing. And I will tell you that Amy and I played a small role in that. We started talking to Eric Barron about that back in the fall of 2005, that Penn State lacked appropriate diversity which it does. It's still a very white place--

>> Mm-hmm, yeah.

>> -- and that, it is. I mean, it was when I was there, it still is. And it lacked appropriate diversity and you wouldn't have appropriate diversity unless you kind of change your scholarship programs to find more scholarship money for kids from seriously economically disadvantaged backgrounds. And also that once they got there, they wouldn't be required to maintain the 3.5 and 3.6 averages that are required to maintain the scholarship to get them, have those high averages to get them and then to maintain them and kids from seriously disadvantaged backgrounds having gone to schools to acquire the study skills and the breadth of kind of awareness to get an average of 3.6.

>> Yeah.

>> And this new program, they will not be required to have those kind of averages to keep their scholarships.

>> I didn't hear that.

>> And so-- you haven't hears that?

>> No, no that not, that aspect of it, I had not.

>> Yes, yes. It's-- They haven't set the-- what it will be so far but certainly, and Amy and I are participating. We are funding a scholarship. And it was-- very clearly, it would the understanding that they could not then expect students to maintain these kind of averages and I understand they will not. Now whether it's going to be-- you'll have to maintain the 2.5 or something. But as I kid, Eric Barron, when I first met him in 2015, I said to him, "You know," I said, "Eric, there are many alumni from Penn State who graduated with 2.69 averages and have done well and we send money to the college every year. And you can't only look after this with high averages and I pointed at myself. I said that I'm one of those guys who has done very well in life. Thanks in serious part because of Penn State in getting good education and then going on to law school. And if I had to maintain a 3.5 average in college, it would have never happened.

>> Mm-hmm.

>> And there's loads of people who have lower averages who contribute dramatically to the world.

>> Definitely.

>> You know? Yeah, well, there's college drop outs, Bill Gates. He didn't even finished college and he's contributed enormously to the world and continues to. So, it is, you know, important to recognize that the campus, you know, needs people that way and we were involved and I'll just tell a story we're involved in, supporting a young lady to go to Penn State from a terrible family background, the first in her family to graduate from high school from Cincinnati. And she was out in McKeesport at the Commonwealth campus. And we went out to visit her and we were in the cafeteria on a Saturday morning with the dean out there or whatever the title was, the provost and as well as somebody else. And the student was there and she was there, she knew the names and said hello to all the cafeteria workers, knew their names, knew the one of the campus security people who came by and to get a cup of coffee and chatted with him. She was talking to him because she wasn't terribly intrigued in our conversation, and she knew all their names and they all knew her. And I have said to many people, I can assure you, when I was at Penn State, I didn't know the names of cafeteria workers. But she did because in her background, those are the people she knew. She knew people who are cafeteria workers. She knew people working at McDonald's so she made an effort to know the names of everybody. That was a real contribution to the campus because the people who work there certainly felt at least one student cared about them and paid attention and appreciated their effort and their work and what they were doing. So, you know, her perspective brought a real plus to the campus.

>> Definitely. That's amazing.

>> Yeah, yeah it is, it is. And it was interesting to observe and watch as she was there doing it and who she was talking to. You know, I'm very comfortable talking to Eric Barron, the President of the university when I was in Penn State, I was very comfortable talking to Eric Walker, who was the president of Penn State at the time because of my personality. She would never be comfortable talking to Eric Barron because she didn't know college graduates, you know, never met them. Other than her high school teachers, she didn't know any college graduates. And so, if you bring young people like her to the college campus, they bring a different perspective for the rest of the students, you know, which was really a plus. One of the other things we haven't-- I did want to touch on since this is being taped so that people understood something else that was going on in campus at the time, I joined the fraternity because of anti-Semitism, I'm Jewish. And although there were seven Jewish fraternities, one of the reasons why there were, was because all the rest of that fraternities included people who just weren't allowed belong to other fraternities. And there were the black fraternities, a couple of them, there weren't many blacks but there were a couple of black fraternities. And there was anti-Semitism, I was-- as a fresh-- when I ran for freshmen class president, the head of the liberal party which I ran on was African-American from Philadelphia, of course in those days, you see a Negro. That was the term that was used in the '60s. And he was from Philly and he was running the political party. He was very involved in the campus. And he lived in North Halls because that's where the athletic-- the athletes lived and so many of the blacks on campus were athletes, so he was more comfortable living there in North Halls. But he'd come down to see me in Polic A. And I began to be called racial slurs because of my religion and because I was friends with a black kid. And that was not uncommon on the campus. My end of our junior year, '67, Bobby Clevelat [assumed spelling] who was Jewish and was in [inaudible] ran against Jeff Long [assumed spelling] who was [inaudible]. And Jeff won the election for president of student government USJ. And the next morning on campus, people had painted some swastikas and we beat the Jew.

>> Oh my gosh.

>> Yes, yes. So, it was, you know, it was a different time up there, you know, up at college. Now again, once I joined the fraternity and I never felt any discrimination based on, you know, my religion and is based on my involvement in the student government, in the following year, Jeff Long-- excuse me, not Jeff Long, John Fox [assumed spelling] who was Jewish and from Philly got elected freshmen class president. Then he's like the sophomore class president and junior class president and then he ran for student government president and was defeated. Those-- And I don't think it had anything to do with his being Jewish, I opposed him being president of the student government because his main platform was to bring an actual lion to Penn State. That was really true. That was the main part of his platform that, you know, the naval academy had-- it's a goat and they had a goat. And, you know, there were horses whatever, schools that have horses as mascots, mustangs, whatever, and he thought, you know, we should get a lion on the campus and have the lion there which didn't seem to be a terribly valuable platform particularly in light of-- we were pleasing the students who were being killed in Vietnam and a war was going on, that was very unpopular, so I think that's why he lost. But I don't think it was because he was Jewish, but there was still a lot of discrimination on campus.

>> Yeah.

>> You know?

>> And I would even say it today though, there's still very prevalent anti-Semitism around.

>> I've-- I had a heard that in two ways. And so I understand it to be somewhat true or have been. One way that I heard it, and my older daughter is now 35 and she started at Penn State among Commonwealth campuses and college was just not her thing. And I was-- She never made it. She stayed, you know, a couple of weeks and then came home. But she did go there, but right before, at our synagogue in Columbia, they had a college night discussion to talk about colleges. And we went, this was like I would say in her junior year. She graduated in 2000, so this would be '99. And a rabbi, in talking about colleges, pointed out that Penn State was not a good place for Jewish kids to go, that there were known examples of anti-Semitism on campus. And I was not shocked of course to hear it but was saddened to learn of it. And then I understood that Graham Spanier, when he was president, was subject to anti-Semitic conversations and talk behind his back because he was Jewish.

>> Well, [inaudible].

>> Yes. Well, how do you know of it?

>> Well, I'm actually a Jewish studies minor. So, I would say, a great deal of my studies, because I am a history major so I focused in a lot on Jewish history and on European anti-Semitism and American anti-Semitism. So, I haven't really taken any specific courses on colleges but just the--

>> Right.

>> -- in the United States, it's 2017 and you still have a lot of hate crimes going on. And those are definitely-- I mean colleges are-- you know, a small representation for the real world and there definitely is still a crime here.

>> Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm-- Have there been incidences that have happened? I assume there have been on campus.

>> I'm not sure if there's been-- There's obviously people who see swastikas drawn on bathroom stalls and things like that, which while minor are still very concerning.

>> Mm-hmm.

>> -- but, you know, it's not like a widespread. But there's definitely movements of white supremacy groups that hold up flyers around campus, especially with the recent election, you see lot of that. It's really a lot of Islamophobia and anti-Semitism are tied together, I would say.

>> Yeah, yeah. Well, certainly too, nationally, the [inaudible] Anti-Defamation League reports almost 100% increase in public displays of anti-Semitism whether it's defacing synagogues or defacing Jewish cemeteries between, you know, 2015 and '16 and '17, it's been a huge increase. And I think it's a result of empowerment from, you know, what's obvious racism on Donald Trump's part when you have a president who is racist against Muslims and I even-- although his daughter has become Jewish, he still made comments and they're just stunning. And I think that it kind of gives other people a freedom to then say, well, if he can talk that way, I can talk that way.

>> Well--

>> And it was true Richard Nixon was a well-known anti-Semite despite his having [inaudible] his secretary of state, hate of Nixon clearly evident serious anti-Semitism. And it was known at the time and the number of people, the number of incidences of anti-Semitism increased during his presidency.

>> Yeah.

>> Because if you've got a leader who, you know, is-- makes strange comments, then it kind of continues. Look at Lloyd Morris' [assumed spelling] wife the other night commenting, well, the fake news says that we don't like Jews, hey, we have a Jew lawyer. It's like, well, are you kidding me? You just proved the point. Didn't say one of our lawyers is of the Jewish religion or the Jewish faith, no, we have a Jew lawyer, we have lawyer who was a Jew. That's just-- I don't know--

>> Yeah.

>> -- proof, that's proof. That's strange.

>> So I guess is there anything else, I mean, you want to wrap up or any other comments you have? That's all my questions.

>> Let me just-- As I had told you before we talked, I wanted to look through with-- just to let people know because this is about what was going on at the time. Some of the things that we-- some of the issues I found looking through-- and my scrapbook is mostly information about the elections and the election results on campus at the time and campus political parties and some of the platforms. And just-- people might be interested to know that one of the things that we tried to set up and I don't know if they still have it, which was having student advisers for students not just faculty advisers, people felt their faculty advisers weren't accessible enough and thought that if you had student advisers, where they could volunteers who are seniors to be student advisers, it would be helpful. And I think that got set up, I don't know if it worked. A serious issue back in '67 and '68, there was no hospital in the state college and there's hospitals in Bellefonte. But they had the Ritenour Health Center on campus, as I recall across the street from the hub.

>> Mm-hmm.

>> And it did not have 24-hour staffing by a nurse or a doctor. We had 28,000 students on campus and they didn't have a full-time nurse or doctor, which was one of the interesting issues. But other things that people wanted to do is return our freshmen customs, making freshmen wear [inaudible], they used to make them wear hats back in the '50s, carry their student handbooks. And just-- I think I covered the other issues. Oh, one was the return of Froth. I don't know if they had a-- had had a campus humor magazine which got banned. And it was banned because of what was viewed as over-the-top humor, humor that was against the campus or sarcastic humor and probably some of it might have actually been an occasional obscene word. And so there was a fight to bring back Froth, the humor magazine. And that actually occurred. They had an off-campus publication called the Bottom of the Bird's Nest which was a humor thing run by students. But I think Froth came back by '68. They let it back on the campus. They were willing to laugh at themselves a little bit. And the last thing that was interesting back in the '65 and '66, the student government opposed administration proposals to require all students to spend their first two years at Commonwealth campus.

>> Yeah.

>> How's that for an interesting proposal?

>> Yeah. I'm not sure how I feel about that.

>> Well, it was-- it's probably a result of lack of dorm space and maybe trying to strengthen the campus, you know, the Commonwealth campuses, of course some of them have turned into four-year schools. I don't remember how many were four-year schools at the time. They were not-- All of them were not. I think Altoona was but I'm not sure how many of them were. I would not recall exactly. But it's probably, well, to do that. but it would certainly change the face of the campus enormously if you didn't have freshmen and sophomores there. And we opposed it rigorously. No, I think I've kind of covered it. I've answered your questions.

>> Okay I just started the recording.  So we have a couple of questions.  There is like no time limit or anything so we can just chat.  The first question is what years did you attend Penn State?

>> Okay.  I entered Penn State for the summer term in 1968.  I graduated with a bachelor's in 1971 and then stayed for another year to get a Master's degree, and graduated then in 1972.

>> Okay and what was your major?

>> My major was--my undergraduate major was, it was a liberal arts major and I had an emphasis, never really declared, but I had an emphasis in French and psychology, believe it or not.  

>> Okay.

>> And the reason for that was I talked my way into the Study Abroad program to go to France and so I was not a French major and everybody else that went were French majors. 

>> Right. 

>> They were juniors, I was a sophomore.  But I decided I wanted to go. 

>> Yeah. 

>> And so the director at the time, I don't know why he did it but he fell for it [laughter] and I wound up canceling, I wound up one semester, that fall semester, before I went I came in, I talked him into my going.  There had been a waiting list of other French majors, but somehow I got there, he took me--

>> [Laughter] Oh my gosh.

>> Yeah.  I called my parents and said guess what, I'm going to France. 

>> What did they say?

>> You're what?  I said yeah, well I am going.  And I had worked the summer before so I had the money and then I got rid of all my classes that week and then I signed up for new classes, and then I got rid of them and went back to the original ones.

>> Oh my gosh.

>> Yeah it was...it was so...anyway.  It was an interesting time.  Yeah, so my majors were French and psychology and when I graduated with my undergraduate degree I really didn't know what I wanted to do.  And I was leaning toward psychology but I was through some research I got offered a, you know, student internship with the counseling department.  So I was able to be an RA in the dorms, which paid for my room and board and I went to--I stayed there to get a master's degree and at that time it was a Master's in Counseling.  

>> Okay.  That's awesome.  I actually am going to be an RA next year too.  

>> Oh, are you?  Where?

>> I am not really sure where I will get placed.  They said it depends on like how you do in the class, don't know what it takes to become one, but...

>> Oh, there's a class now huh?

>> Yes.  

>> Oh, okay. 

>> So it's like a year process, so I interviewed, and then if I get selected, then I get to enroll in the class and if I do well in the class, then I get placed in my like, preference of dorms. 

>> Good!  Well good luck with that.  What is your major?

>> I'm in early childhood education major and I'm a minor in human development and family studies. 

>> Uh huh.  Okay.  What year are you?

>> I'm a freshman.

>> Oh, great, how do you like it? 

>> Uh, it's a little overwhelming this semester.  Everything got way harder, but I am hanging in there [laughs].  Good, good.  Good.  

>> All right so our next question is what made you choose Penn State for your university education?  

>> I chose Penn State, well, it was really a matter of convenience and money to, and my brother, my older brother attended Penn State, and he was actually still attending when I got there.

>> Okay.  And he had been, he was a gymnast and went on a full scholarship to Penn State.

>> Oh wow!

>> Yeah, and then so I was very familiar with Penn State College because we had been attending the gymnastics meets, during the winter seasons, when he was in school. 

>> Okay. 

>> So I knew, I knew the school, I knew the town and I also really wanted to go away for school.  And so it was a way for me to do that without it costing too much and that's how I chose it.  

>> Great.  Okay.  And we already got your major, was there one particular course or professor that made a lasting impression on your studies? 

>> Oh boy, uh...you know what, I really wish I could say that there was, but there really--well, that's not entirely true.  There was a professor that was at Penn State at the time that I was there who was actually pretty famous, in the University.  His name was Larry Latman [assumed spelling].

>> Okay.  

>> He taught a course called GSCI20, Geological Sciences 20.  

>> Okay.

>> It was for non-science majors. 

>> Mm-hmm.

>> And he taught it in Schwab.  So it was not exactly an intimate setting [laughs] to say the least.  However, he was extraordinarily entertaining, and I think he was voted best professor at Penn State years and years in a row, because he was so entertaining.  And he also did, one time--now is on a trimester.  

>> Okay.

>> And he also did one in each term, he did a Bible lecture where he explained some of the geological forces that are described in the Bible, like the parting of the Red Sea.

>> Right.

>> Don't ask me to tell you what it was because I don't remember, but I do remember that he talked to us about that.  So that was a very entertaining--but as far as other professors are concerned, I think that primarily what happened for me there was that I became very interested in psychology and wound up focusing on that pathway even though I did it in a somewhat unorthodox way, which probably was consistent with my going to France. 

>> Right.

>> Yeah.  

>> But do you think that like all those experiences kind of like led you to psychology? 

>> Yeah, I think so.  I think so.  And I had never, in high school, psychology was not any kind of an option.  It was work at that time, so that was my first exposure to it.  And I remember even in my freshman, my first trimester, my first term, I took psychology and I really enjoyed it a great deal.

>> Oh, that's great.  All right.  So our next question is what music did you like?  

>> What music did I like?  It's an interesting question for me today because tomorrow night I'm going to see a traveling Broadway production of Motown.

>> Oh!

>> And in response I would say that my primary music, when I started, especially, was Motown. 

>> Okay.

>> And of course I was there, you know, I was there during those pretty significant years.  So you know, certainly the Beatles, and the Grateful Dead and Rolling Stones and all of those.  We had some great concerts that came and they came to Rec Hall, and one of them was Dionne Warwick whom [inaudible] ever heard of. 

>> I feel like I recognize the name. 

>> Whitney Houston's aunt.

>> Okay. 

>> Dionne Warwick.  And she performed actually the night of my pledge formal, so that was a big concert, and also the Fifth Dimension, again I don't know if you've ever heard of them. 

>> That I have not heard of. 

>> Okay.  The Fifth Dimension came for a concert, and everyone was very excited, and it got snowed out.

>> No!

>> Yeah.  Yeah.  And then they did come back, but I was in France already so I missed them. 

>> Okay. 

>> So my taste in Music at that point went from Motown to, you know, early rock stuff.  

>> Okay, okay, that's interesting.  Where did you get or obtain your news?

>> Uh, well certainly not from social media.

>> Yeah, that's probably for the best. 

>> Yeah, probably for the best.  You know, I think at that time partially I think it was me.  But I am not sure that I wasn't indicative of a lot of the student population.  I wasn't getting a lot of news from anywhere.  

>> Right.  

>> Most notably, I remember there was an uprising, and you probably don't know about this, but there was an uprising at a place called Attica prison.  

>> Okay. 

>> I recall that we didn't find out about it for like three weeks after it happened.  So my knowing what was going on in the world was pretty limited at that time.  ^M00:10:38 >> Right. 

>> And then when I went to France, and was in Strasbourg, France for it was a 14-week term, then I was there for the summer too.  We were listening to the BBC news on the radio, and I'm bringing this all up only because it was an interesting experience for us.  I think there were 35 Penn State students there at that time.  And we misunderstood that the shooting that happened at Kent State, we initially understood it as Penn State. 

>> No way!

>> So for at least I'd say at least 24 hours, we were all shaking, well, we were shaking afterward of course anyway but...

>> Uh huh.

>> We were shaking particularly because Penn State was so not active politically.  

>> Yeah.

>> During the time that I was there. 

>> Yeah.  Oh my goodness, that must have been so scary. 

>> It was.  It was very scary because we didn't, you know, we certainly couldn't pick up a cell phone and call somebody. 

>> Yeah, to make sure they were okay. 

>> Right, and making a call at that time at all was a real process, because we didn't have access to phones, we had to go to the [foreign language spoken] which was the post office, it had to be placed, and anyway, it does sound like ancient times.  In that way it really was. 

>> Right.  So the next question says there was so much occurring in the late 1960s such as the first moon photos from space, the student protest, the Presidential election of 68.  What were your particular interests at that time? 

>> Well I was certainly very interested in the elections and the moon landing was of particular interest in that it happened to be-- that it coincided the day of the moon landing happened to coincide to something that was personally very significant because a dear friend of mine was actually in a horrific car accident outside of the Elk's Club, which is now the country club, I think.  And it happened on the day of the moon landing, and that is part of the reason that I think that is so ingrained in my memory, and thank goodness, my dear friend who is still a dear friend 50 years later, was severely injured, but survived very well.  So also I remember at that time the assassinations of Martin Luther King and Robert Kennedy and having been of the age of consciousness at the time that Jack Kennedy was killed.  I think that I personally was particularly sensitive to those things, and to the horror of it all.  Which in some ways pales against the horror of what happens now, but...

>> Exactly.

>> So that is really the kinds of things I was particularly paying attention to.  

>> Okay.  

>> I was also, of course, at that point, became more interested in world news because of having to get ready to go to France, and being in France, and some of the government issues that were happening in France at the time.  So that was really a time for me that helped to expand my thinking and my world view. 

>> Right.  That was going to be my follow up question was like, when you came back from France did you find that you had a different perspective about what was going on? 

>> Oh, there's no question, yeah.  Yeah, and I think that experience was one of the shaping experiences of my life in terms of introducing me to the broader culture of the world.  I'd grown up in Philadelphia and went to Penn State and that was the world that I knew. 

>> Right. 

>> I'd never been on an airplane, and I got on an airplane and flew from New York to Amsterdam, and then a train to Strasburg, and you know, lived there.  In a completely immersion program, because everything was French.

>> Right. 

>> So I had no choice but to learn French [laughter].  

>> Did you go on your, it was like a study abroad?

>> It was a study abroad program, yeah, and at that time in the late 60s and early 70s study abroad was really pretty limited.  Not like it is today.

>> Yeah, it's very big now.  Like, did you go to France with any close friends? 

>> Actually the person who I mentioned was in the horrific car accident--

>> Right. 

>> She was and is a close friend, and she was a French major and she also went at the same time I did. 

>> Okay. 

>> So I had that contact.  And of course the rest of the French students all knew each other because they were all living in the--

>> Right, they were already there. 

>> Yeah, they were.  They already had their relationships then I showed up [laughter].  Oh well.

>> So in college, and just being at Penn State what were your motivations, and were those interests that you had developed at Penn State or before you got there.  It was like, what as your goal like, as you're going through college?

>> You know, I'm not sure that I...well, aside from my goal was clearly academically to succeed.

>> Right.  

>> That had always been a motivator for me.  

>> I also worked off in college, and worked almost full time, plus carrying a full load of courses. 

>> Oh my gosh. 

>> And I was also President of my Sorority. 

>> Okay. 

>> So they--and I wound up having a little side, part-time jobs, getting ready for the Christmas break, so it was really a time of, I think it was a major time for me to establish my independence.  

>> Right. 

>> Cognitively, emotionally and financially.

>> Mm-hmm.  So you were carrying this full load of classes, but also working full time.  I can't imagine that. 

>> It was fun.  

>> Yeah. 

>> You know?  And I had jobs that, I mean, my first job was, you know, on campus, and it was one of those crazy little jobs that you got, and we said giving out the--and you won't even remember this, I think they were cassette tapes for the, at the Bio-Sci Lab, it was, for Biological Sciences, the lectures were taped, the people would come in and listen to them.  Yeah.  Then I started working downtown. 

>> Okay, where did you work downtown?

>> Well I worked a place that is still there, I think?  Highway Pizza. 

>> Yeah, that is there.  

>> Yeah, it's a much smaller entity than it was when I was there, and in what is now the deli.

>> Okay, that's one of my favorite restaurants. 

>> Okay, well it used to be called the [inaudible] Lodge.  And I worked at the lodge, and on College Avenue, I think it's either Reliance [inaudible] or Irving's, was a place called College Avenue Pharmacy and I worked there. 

>> Okay. 

>> I once worked at College Avenue Pharmacy, so I got around. 

>> Right.  And what is one suggestion that you would offer to current students at Penn State? 

>> One suggestion that I would offer the current Penn State--just live every moment.  Because it goes by really quickly and it is, for me, Penn State was the quintessential college experience.  And I think that... ^M00:20:06 ^M00:20:09 Developmentally at that point in my life, I am not sure that I was able to be present in the moment to truly experience all of it.  That is not to suggest that I didn't get an enormous amount out of it, because I certainly did. 

>> Yeah.  

>> But I think that becoming aware of being present in the moment and just looking around and appreciating where you are and what you're doing. 

>> Right. 

>> Which is true for life in general, of course, but I think for young adults in college there are so many forces that can give you all kinds of angst [laughter].

>> Right.

>> Right.  And to not lose the experience to the angst.  

>> Okay.  I definitely needed to hear that personally. 

>> Great, well it sounded like it because you said that, you know, it has been a little bit hard for you and yeah, and it's, you know, it's hard.  Where did you grow up?  

>> I grew up in Moon Township in Pittsburgh. 

>> Okay.

>> By the Pittsburgh Airport. 

>> Okay, okay, and did you go to public school or private school? 

>> Public. 

>> Okay.  So you're coming to Penn State.  You came from a similar background, it sounds like to me, public school, etc., yeah, yeah.  

>> Mm-hmm, yeah.  Yeah, it's just been like, I guess first semester, everything was so brand new, and I was so excited to be not at home, and kind of off on my own. 

>> Yeah. 

>> It flew by, and I did well, and--

>> Good. 

>> Then coming back in for a second semester, I do color guard, so I'm in Penn State Eclipse Indoor Color guard, and yeah, it's so much fun.  But it has been a really big time commitment and we have late practices, and weekend competitions, and plus my classes have been like harder, and so it's been a little bit more overwhelming, but I'm trying to just stay really involved with all my clubs, and most of them in the student education association so...

>> I'm just trying to like, immerse myself in everything so I don't have time to think about how crazy it has been [laughter], but--

>> Yeah, I thought I'd [inaudible] that later. 

>> Right. 

>> Did you do color guard in high school too?

>> I did.  

>> Yeah. 

>> And I didn't want to stop doing it [laughs]. 

>> Right, now, does that mean you are, for example, on the football field with the flags? 

>> Well, I...so they have, you can do blue band, and indoor color guard, but I just did indoor because I did marching band all throughout high school and so I kind of wanted to switch and like go to the football games, and be in the stands, just as a regular student, instead of like, as a color guard member for a couple years.  I wanted a break. 

>> Good for you.  Good for you and have you, and it was a great season to be in the stands this year. 

>> Exactly, yeah, it was so much fun. 

>> Well that's another thing, incidentally, you know, I don't know how many people you are going to be talking to, but of course, those of us who started in 1968 and were there through the late 60s and early 70s, that was the hay day of Penn State football. 

>> Did you go to a lot of football games? 

>> Oh yeah, oh yeah, I went to all of them.  

>> Yeah. 

>> All of them, sat in Block S, you know, and after my first year I was in sorority, so you know, this sorority and fraternities, as I recall, sort of monopolized Block S.  I don't remember if that was intentional or if that's just the way it happened, so...yeah.  I was a rabid Penn State fan, and then of course, after I graduated, I did live in state college for a while, well, I lived in Center Hall. 

>> Okay.

>> So we had season tickets to Penn State football for many, many years. 

>> Aww that's so much fun, the games are just such a great experience. 

>> They really are.  They really are.  There is nothing like Penn State football. 

>> Exactly, there really isn't.  

>> Especially when they're winning. 

>> Yeah, it's just like, oh my gosh, it's like indescribable, because you are surrounded by so many people and you're all there for the same reason and it's just a great--

>> Yep, and the stadium grew, the stadium was always, had been located at Beaver Stadium by the time I got there but it grew, when I got there, so it's, it was about two-thirds of what it is now.

>> So one of the things we looked at in our class was the restrictions and curfews, for like, women and...all of the girls in my class, and I were kind of super surprised pretty much by it, and so I was wondering if that was normal or if you felt restricted by those regular--

>> [Laughs] Well I do want to talk to you a little bit more about the class, but let me say this, when I started Penn State, we had house mothers in the dorms, the dorms were locked, and we had curfew.  Now you've probably heard this already right? 

>> A little bit, but we just read through the documents, but like, yeah.  

>> Okay so we had to sign in and out, and by the time I left Penn State, we had 24-hour visitation and the doors were open all the time.  And there were some times, for some reason, they were locked.  I forget, I mean, I think they were locked after a certain hour sometimes.  People just let you in, I mean it was no big deal.  So we went from that extraordinarily Victorian restrictive, you know, way of living, particularly the girls, to complete open access. 

>> Right.

>> In three and a half or four years, so--

>> Oh my gosh.

>> [Laughs] It was a bit of a rapid change.  

>> Did you live in the dorms for all the--

>> I did live in the dorms, because number one, financially it was the most economical thing to do, but also at that time, and I think it is still true, sororities were located in the dorms. 

>> Right, yeah. 

>> And I joined a sorority because I felt a need for some kind of a smaller community to--

>> Yeah, that's so important here. 

>> Yeah, and since when I went to Penn State it was not that much smaller than it is now, it's pretty overwhelming. 

>> Yeah.  So you had, if I have the right bio, because I know we had some issues with that on the alumni one, but you said you had been a little homesick coming in, right?

>> Not a little homesick, I was majorly homesick.  Majorly homesick.  Yeah, it was a very tough transition for me from home to Penn State.  The first term was brutal, and I don't remember, I don't recall that I wanted to leave.  I knew I had to stick it out, but it was, I recall, I can vividly recall how homesick I was, and how uncertain I was.  I was, and now my brother, my older brother was still at Penn State, but he was not there--I started I the summer, and the reason I started in the summer was so that I could get used to the place before 40,000 people showed up. 

>> Right. 

>> Because I had gotten in for the fall, but I started in summer.  But my brother left.  He wasn't there for the summer.  He was there the first couple of days I was there then he left. So I didn't have any kind of a familial support system, but I certainly formed good relationships, and there was one particular person that was located in east halls, who was a counselor of some sort, who was very helpful to me. 

>> Okay. 

>>  And may also have--you know, choosing the counseling path that I chose. 

>> Oh, that's great. 

>> And I did have some contact with him as an adult, we'd been talking a very long time.  But now that we're talking about it, I just wonder how he is or if he's still around. ^M00:30:16

>> So besides, I don't know if we kind of already touched on this, but what life lessons did you learn at Penn State that have come in handy throughout your career?  

>> Actually the first thing that came to mind was to take care of myself, and to be responsible for myself.  And you know, I think that it was the first time in my life that I actively pursued being open to new things, new experiences.  And being willing to take some risks, you know, I got on a plane, went to France, I didn't speak French.  I had high school French [laughter], you know, nobody spoke English.

>> So I think that it was really, it provided, what I did there provided me with a fundamental foundation of self-confidence that was certainly not overwhelming, but it was an important layer to get me started.  

>> Right.  

>> Let me see what else I have here.  Okay so this is actually my last question that I have.  Did you experience any protests and with like the counter-culture and everything, how did that affect the homesickness you were already experiencing?  

>> The homesickness really passed after the first term.  

>> Okay that's good. 

>> The second term I was probably doing pretty well.  And then third term which was winter term is when rush sorority--uh, then pledged.   So for the community at that time, Sarah, really I don't really recall a lot of protests or unrest at Penn State.  You know, this was 1968, 1969, and the--certainly the election in 1968 was important, but keep in mind we couldn't vote, I was not even 18 at that time.  I was only 17. 

>> Okay.

>> I started when I was 17. 

>> Right.  So I didn't experience a lot of anything regarding the political unrest that was really beginning at that time.  

>> Mm-hmm.

>> Penn State was and still is a very isolated, as you well know, a very isolated place.  

>> It is. Sometimes I feel like it's kind of like living in a bubble.  

>> No, it's not kind of like, it is like.  You know, Happy  Valley has that name for a reason. 

>> Right, yeah.  Very true [laughs]. 

>> And again, I've continued to have a relationship with state college, and also therefore Penn State, because of my brother married a woman from state college that was his first wife. I lived with my husband in center hall, which was right outside of state college.  My son in law is the Penn State men's gymnastics coach.  

>> Okay.

>> Randy Jepson. 

>> Okay.

>> So I still have family there.  

>> That's great.  So you just keep in touch really closely with the school. 

>> Yeah, we were there over the winter break because one of my granddaughters got married in the University, in the fall. 

>> Oh. 

>> So I'm, I still have a physical connection to the state college because of the family. 

>> Right.  Well those all the questions I have for you.  Do you have anything else that you want to talk about or, 

>> Well, I want to ask you a couple questions.  So what exactly is this project, and how is this recording going to be used? 

>> So this project is where recordings, so we're getting the oral history, just like accounts of what was going on at Penn State, and I think it is for sort of like a research collection of, so we can have like, keep these memories, like, and there is that alumni website, or the 1968 Penn State website. 

>> Right. And I am not sure if they are going to be available on there or if they are going to kind of use this to collect, just like memories of what was going on.  The class is really great. 

>> What is the class? 

>> So it's history 197, so it's called The World in 1968, and it's really interesting because we are talking about everything from a global perspective.  So we have been talking about, you know, like a couple weeks ago we talked about Czechoslovakia and like, Russia, and we've even been looking at this like African history, which I've never been very good at history, but the reason I took this class is because I got to pick one for my major and junior year of high school was when we talked about it was like everything post-World War 2, and I really loved learning about, like the 60s and stuff, so I was like, oh, I enjoy that, so I took it and I've been learning a lot.  It is really interesting.  

>> So how many people are you interviewing?  

>> Just one, just you. 

>> Oh, just me. Okay. And how many people are being interviewed for this, you know? 

>> Just as many as are in my class.  It's a relatively small class by Penn State standards, it's like maybe 30 people.  So I think there's about 30 alumni.

>> That is a small Penn State class, yeah, that's great. 

>> One of the smallest classes. 

>> Yeah, and do you know how we were--I know how they identified me. They identified me because I have been a mentor for liberal arts students. 

>> Okay. 

>> For the last several years.  So I am pretty sure that's how--I know that's how Chris Gamble got my name.  Do you know how they identified others? 

>> I'm not exactly sure.  I know that they just told us that they had like rounded up like an alumni network, and that we got to go on and find a bio that was interesting to us, and then reach out to you all.  But I am not sure how they did that from scratch [laughs].

>> Okay, okay.  And so you will be turning in the recording to your professor?  

>> Right. 

>> And then how are you being graded?  Are you being graded on the quality of this recording or is that contributing to your grade? 

>> I think basically I had to--I had to come up with a couple questions that weren't like, on our interview question list, and so we've been like, being graded in steps.  So we got a couple of points for reaching out and setting an interview time and date and then just really like completing it and having a good conversation. 

>> Good, good.  Okay.  And which of the questions that you asked me were your original questions?  

>> They were--so they were the homesick transition to being more confident and independent, life lessons and how they've come in handy throughout your career.  The one about protests and counter culture, and then the female regulations, and how they've changed and how you felt about them.  

>> And you said you and some of the women students were pretty surprised by the female regulations that we had? 

>> We were so surprised.  I can't imagine like, having those time restrictions. 

>> [Coughing] Excuse me, it was interesting.  I think that the most interesting part of it actually was just the speed, the velocity of the transition.  

>> Mm-hmm.  

>> You know, from closed dorms, house mothers, sliding in and out, it was taking people in because they couldn't get in because the place was locked, to actually no rules whatsoever.  Now we did not have co-ed dorms at that time, so that, everything was still, you know, gender specific.  That being said, it didn't necessarily mean that there weren't mixed genders in rooms at times. 

>> Right. 

>> So it was a really interesting time of change there, and also, you know, and you haven't asked about this, but this was a really significant time in the drug culture.  ^M00:40:29

>> Right. 

>> At that time, because when we got to Penn State I 1968, it was really rampant.  And I can't speak to the culture, what was available in the culture prior to my getting there, but I can say over the four years, three, and undergraduate one, and graduate, the explosion of drug use was astonishing. 

>> Really? 

>> Oh yeah, yeah.   Now in my experience it was mostly marijuana, hashish, but there were certainly a lot of people that were doing much, much stronger drugs, that I had no interest in at all, but that was a time of LSD, etc.  So we were certainly always, you know, if we were clued into other people, which I was, and have always been, we were certainly aware that people were experimenting. And it was an interesting time. 

>> Yeah. 

>> And the other thing was that when I went to France because of, well this is something you may not know, when I went to France and I was there, it was spring term of 1970.  Because of the unrest in the country and what had happened at Kent State, the Penn State went on pass/fail. 

>> Oh?

>> The entire university went on Pass/Fail.  Now we were in France, and I don't think that I really completely appreciated or understood why Penn State was going on pass/fail, but my--because we were so far away. 

>> Right. 

>> But what I thought was that the unrest throughout the country had resulted in whatever was going on at Penn State at the time.  They--I think the administration was trying to squash and keep things as calm as possible. 

>> Mm-hmm.

>> And so my experience of it was we heard about Kent State, found out that it was not Penn State, understood that there was a tremendous amount going on in terms of unrest, and then I think it may have been a week or two weeks, it was pretty fast, after the Kent State issues, that the Director of the Study Abroad Program paid us a visit in Strasburg, and he went to the other three or four study abroad programs, because really it was Strasburg, Cologne, there was [inaudible] and an architecture program in Florence, and that was it, for all the study abroad programs.  And so the director paid us all a visit and presented us with the option of going on pass/fail or continuing with a grading system.  And he, in essence, pleaded with us not to go on pass/fail.

>> Mm-hmm [laughing].

>> For what is probably going to be obvious reasons.  And as it turns out, we all did [laughter].  Because it was okay this is a good thing.  People were taking six-day weekends and going to Rotterdam [laughter], so because a lot of people at that point were hitch-hiking around Europe.  It was a time when it probably wasn't safe, but we didn't know the difference. 

>> Right. 

>> So that was, I think, an outstanding part of that experience, that Penn State went on pass/fail.  We were offered the option, and I think everybody except one person in the class went on pass/fail. And that was never, to my knowledge, that was never offered again at Penn State, pass/fail as across the university. 

>> Uh uh, I'd never heard of it.  

>> Yeah, so it was an outstanding time, and what precipitated it on campus was not something that I directly experienced because I was in Strasburg, France, at the time. 

>> Right. 

>> But that was obviously a clear, unique event that occurred. 

>> Mm-hmm.  Okay.

>> So what do you plan to do with your degree, Sarah, do you know?

>> So I want to be a teacher.  I want to teach elementary school.

>> Good, great. 

>> I'm really lucky because I have so many friends who aren't sure what they wanted to do, and I've just always known I wanted to be a teacher. 

>> That's great. 

>> My dad went here, my mom, my grandfather, so...

>> Okay.

>> And just like once I toured here after touring other schools, I just loved the town, it's so homey and I really didn't want to go anywhere else after here. 

>> Yeah.  Did you go to Penn State with other people that you knew? 

>> I actually, yes, came in with my best friend from high school so it was really nice to have someone who I was so close to. 

>> Yeah, good.  And are you rooming together or were you rooming together? 

>> Well, we were, but then we decided that rooming together was not good for our friendship because we kept getting in these little arguments, so we ended up switching. 

>> Hopefully that helped. 

>> Yeah [laughs]. 

>> And what dorm? Where do you live? 

>> I live in Schultz. 

>> So did I.

>> Oh, really? 

>> Yeah, yeah, that's where the sorority was located. 

>> Oh, that's so funny.

>> Yeah, and I was on the sixth floor of Schultz.  

>> Okay. I am on the fourth floor.

>> Yeah, we had--

>> What sorority are you in?

>> AE5. 

>> Okay.

>> I don't think it's there anymore.  I don't know, but I don't think it's there anymore.  I think it actually might have merged with another of the sororities, phi sig, phi sig, sig--

>> Okay.

>> I don't remember.  But yeah, I was in Schultz Hall and we had three sororities in Schultz, we had AE5, we had uh...oh gosh, I can't remember.  I just remember the one that was across from--we had sorority suites down in the lobby area.  I don't know how they have it set up now.  

>> They kind of have it like that now too.  

>> Okay. 

>> Like the first room when you walk into Schultz is like a supplemental housing room, so there is like, more than, I think there's four girls in there. 

>> Okay.  Oh, they're still doing that, huh?  Okay.  Okay.  

>> [Laughter] Yeah. 

>> Okay.  Hey, okay.  Yeah, so and have you been at Schultz the whole time? 

>> Yeah. 

>> Oh good. 

>> Yeah, I haven't moved.  My roommate was the one to move because her friend had a roommate who had decided not to come back, so she was like maybe I'll just go live there, so now she lives in Hamilton, in West. 

>> Okay.  Okay.  And I was an RA in West. 

>> Okay. 

>> I did that when I was getting my Master's degree.  So anyway, so I have answered all your questions huh? 

>> Yeah. 

>> Okay, okay well this has been delightful. 

>> Yes, it was so nice talking with you. 

>> And if there is anything that you need from me, moving forward, just reach out. 

>> Okay, no problem, and once they get--I was actually looking as we were talking because I wanted to make sure I knew what I was talking about with where--with what they're doing with these recordings, but--there's just basically going to be an archive on the 1968 website, so I can like, let you know, I can email you and let you know like where you can find these and everything. 

>> I'd appreciate that. 

>> Okay. 

>> And the 1968 website is--on the PSU website?  And you just look for 1968?

>> It's--you can Google 1968, Penn State, and it will come up like for it, but it's like 1968, dot PSU, dot EDU.

>> Okay.  Great.  Okay.  Well there's a part of me that feels very old--

>> Aw!

>> Part of this history.  But you know, hey, it is what it is. 

>> With everything that is going on in the world right now, I feel like I'm going to get interviewed as well [laughs].  There is a lot of crazy stuff going on.

>> You are living in a very difficult time. 

>> Yeah [laughs]. 

>> I wouldn't want, to be honest with you I wouldn't want to be your age now. 

>> It's hard.  It's just a completely different world.  I don't really like it. 

>> Yeah.  Yeah, but you asked me about where I get my news, where do you get your news?  ^M00:50:31

>> Well, I honestly like...we like through my Pennsylvania Student Education Association, we talk about, like the news and stuff at our meetings. 

>> Yeah. 

>> So I usually like, like hear about certain stuff there, and then I'll go home and like, look it up on my own, but it's so hard to know, like what's real. 

>> Yes. 

>> And what is made up.  And like a lot of the times, like my parents will like send me articles, and be like oh, look at this, but like my parents are very conservative, and everybody at school is very liberal, and so--but it has really opened up my mind about like how I look at politics and everything.  Because I kind of grew up in like a very conservative little town, and it's nice to, like, I just have a totally different perspective on life.  Since I've like come to a place where everybody lives in the suburbs and everything. 

>> Right, right, and again, I'm happy to hear that for you because I think that is one of the--that is one of the main things that a college education needs to do is help you open up to diverse, rich perspectives. 

>> Right.  

>> And because Penn State is such an isolated place, it has that going against it.  In my opinion.

>> Right. 

>> So the fact that you're experiencing that is good to hear. 

>> Yeah, it's been very eye-opening, like I just feel like I'm learning a lot, like not only through my classes, but just like by being here. 

>> Yeah, absolutely.  Now, will you go home for the summer or will you--?

>> Yes, I'm going back to Pittsburgh for the summer.  

>> And work? 

>> Yes, I work at Starbuck's.  I'm a barista. 

>> That's another thing we didn't have any Starbucks. 

>> Oh my goodness. 

>> We didn't have a Starbucks yeah [laughter]. 

>> It's a crazy, crazy place to work. 

>> Oh, I would imagine.  I would imagine, especially if you're in a really busy one, it must be nuts. 

>> Yeah, very busy.  We have a drive through and everything.  It never stops. 

>> Yeah.  You know, it's a good company, do they provide you benefits at all? 

>> They do.  They have like a lot of--one of the things they do they are paired up with Arizona State University and so if you are an employee of Starbucks you can take online classes from Arizona State for free. 

>> Really?

>> Yeah, you can get your degree through their online program paid for.

>> I never knew that.  That is fascinating. 

>> I know, it's really great, because I have a friend who has three kids and she recently, her and her husband recently split up, and so now she's kind of on her own, but she's had this job at Starbucks on the side, and so now she is taking classes so that she can kind of like, move up with like her career and everything.  And she doesn't have to worry about being in all that student debt.  It's really great. 

>> I am amazed that is not a benefit that is more widely known.

>> Right, yeah, I didn't know about it until actually I was already working at Starbucks for a year, and my mom was like, Sarah, did you know about this?  And I was like, no.

>> Wow.  That is incredible.  Well again it says a lot about the commitment of the company to their workforce, which is great. 

>> Right, yeah, they're very accommodating and I made a lot of great friends at this job who were like, I was one of the youngest people to work there because I started working there when I was 16.  And so I've been there for two years now.  Yeah, and I've just made a lot of friends that were like, older than me, and like mostly in their like early 20s and that really helped me to get through high school because I was always very like, frustrated with high school and just like wanted to go and be like on my own so badly and it was nice having like friends who like had their own like apartments and stuff, and that really made me like, even more motivated to like go to school. 

>> Good.  Good, that's great.  

>> So that's where I'll be over the summer. 

>> Okay, okay it's nice to know you have a job to go back to.  It really is. 

>> Yes. 

>> It really is.  It really is.  And you're not having to work while you're in school, you're just going to school. 

>> Right.  

>> And in Color Guard, of course. 

>> Yes.  What I do is I save my money from the summer, then my dad and I have my--like bank account set up so that like every week a chunk of money will get like put into my account for like lever. 

>> Good. 

>> I need, and then I don't have to work throughout the year.  

>> That's good. 

>> Yeah, that's like my system, at least this year.  But I think if I--now that I know what I'm doing here, I might be able to get a part-time job next year.  

>> Well you know, whatever you do, just enjoy it. 

>> Right [laughter].

>> Okay.  Well thanks for taking the time to talk to me.  It has been very enjoyable, and I wish you a lot of luck.  

>> Thank you so much, it was great talking to you too.  

>> All right Sarah, let me know when this goes online or however you get to it, and maybe our paths will cross again sometime. 

>> Yeah, I will definitely reach out to you when this is all up. 

>> Good. 

>> All right. 

>> Okay all right, take care. 

>> You too, bye.

>> Bye. 

Interview by Sarah Gilmore

Interview by Joe Dolan

>> Okay, my name is Joe Dolan. I am sitting here with Mr. Tom Fosnacht. Mr. Fosnacht, you are consenting to be recorded for this interview?

>> Yes, sir. 

>> Okay. I'll get started some with background questions. So what years did you attend Penn State?

>> 1966 and I graduated in 1970.

>> Okay. And so why did you choose Penn State for your university education?

>> For all the wrong reasons. I wanted to -- I came from a small town of Hershey and I wanted to go to a big school, have some type of, you know, larger environment. I was actually going to go to UCLA because at that time if you were a resident in California, tuition was free. Ronald Reagan ended that but I had an aunt out there. So after nine months, I could declare residency out there. And then my mom talked me into because she didn't want me going that far away but I still had to get out of Hershey, so I came to Penn State. And it turned out to be if I had known, I would've picked it because of the three things I wanted to do, I didn't know about ROTC. We had a lousy counselor. I got here and signed up for ROTC. I didn't know about the study abroad programs and, you know, I signed up for that and those are the two formative, you know, aspects of my Penn State education. And then they had a military historian here whose focus especially was the Civil War, Warren Hassler, and that had been something up till that time I was really into the Civil War. In high school, they used to let me teach the segments on the Civil War. I could give [inaudible] to Gettysburg because, you know, I practically grew up there. And then the other thing I got involved in here was a fraternity, something which now is a little contentious up here and I'm still involved with my fraternity's board. 

>> What fraternity was that?

>> Sigma Pi.

>> Sigma Pi, that's right across from Alpha Gamma Rho. That's what I'm in. 

>> AGR? Are you an AGR?

>> Yep. 

>> Great. That's a nice house. 

>> Very nice house. Okay, so what was your major at Penn State?

>> History and at that time they really didn't declare minors but I had enough credits in German to get a second major but I didn't take any of the literature courses because I focused mainly on, you know, the application of language, reading and writing and translation, this type of stuff, conversation. When I came back from Cologne, I signed up for this 300 level course in conversation and the professor was from Vienna. And Viennese have a distinct accent, right, so this was funny listening to this accent. And myself and two other guys that had been in the program in Cologne, well, you know, we were just always talking to the professor in German and what he was doing was he'd bring a book out and we would have to translate this. And so after a while, you know, we went up to him and said, "Hey, prof, what's going on here? You know, this is supposed to be alles auf Deutsch." He said, "You guys are too far advanced. It won't be fair for the other ones." I said, "Well, how you going to get them up to our level if, you know, we do it this way. So that was --

>> Okay, so was there any one particular course or professor while you were here that had a lasting impact on you?

>> It would've been the study abroad program that gave me the proficiency and the language that became the basis for my career. And just that whole experience. And then, like I said, my advisor was a military historian and when I got into the honors program, you have to write a paper. And he had been a waist gunner on B-25s,  Ninth Air Force flying out of England. And by this time I had built model planes and I started to get into the biographies of the aces and stuff and I started to look at this and I said, "Well, I'd like to write something focused on the air battles, you know, Eighth Air Force against The Luftwaffe, this kind of stuff, and he let me do it. And so that had a -- The history of course is here. They taught you research and they taught you how to write. In intelligence, those two skills are invaluable. That plus the language. And then of course I had ROTC, you know, and that was, you know, we had the draft back then. So but I had always knew I was going to go in the military once I found this program. So yeah, obviously that had some bearing starting on my professional career but it was the study abroad program and then the honors course.

>> So you said you were in Cologne? 

>> Yeah, that's --

>> Could you like see any of the like effects from like post World War or Cold War?

>> Yeah. It was funny. Most European universities do not have dormitories, but after the war, Cologne had actually build one that reminded us a lot of East Halls, you know, except no cafeteria. They don't have cafeterias. 

^M00:05:07

And this is where they lodged us and I used to sit there -- The little town where we would have to get on the train that went to the campus, right, there was this bombed out building. And that we would see that's their war memorial. They just sort of left that there, you know, as a reminder. And when you went to the huge cathedral in Cologne, you know, with the two spires and everything, the one on the left that had been hit and when they replaced it, they used brick. They didn't replicate the -- It's actually sandstone that building is constructed out of. But, I mean, there's amazing pictures of how Cologne is flattened and that one building still left standing is the church. 

>> Yeah, that's weird. Okay, so getting down to like your time here at Penn State as ROTC member. So obviously the nation was heavily divided over Vietnam. So as an ROTC member, I'm assuming you believed in the war? Did you like think it was a good cause to fight communism?

>> Well, yeah. I mean, in my own personal case, I knew the background that North Vietnam had invaded South Vietnam and that was the issue preventing the overrun of that. And  also, you know, through the courses I had taken here in Penn State and when you started to look at the whole, you know, international communist movement and what was going, I mean, you had North Korea, you know, you had the east block, then you had, this comes later on, but you know, the Cuban attempt to spread communism into Latin America. So you know, from a personal point of view, I thought we had valid reasons for, you know, for being there. Now right after I came when Nixon gets elected in '71, he declares that we were going to start withdrawing from Vietnam and do this thing called vietnamization, just like we're trying to do in Afghanistan, turn the fighting over to, you know, the local military. But then as an officer if you went, you wanted to probably avoid contact and bring as many of your troops back because, you know, at this point, it was we decided we were giving up. So that was something you had to deal with on a personal basis. But once you get there, once you're in combat, you know, it's survival, you know. But even so, it's like if you get some of these missions -- Have you seen the movie "Band of Brothers?" 

>> Yeah. The series?

>> Yeah. 

>> Yeah. 

>> And you know at that one point at the end where he sends that reconnaissance group across the river to go over and capture, you know, prisoners, bring them back for interrogation? And then the colonel is so impressed with this and he's getting all these, you know, accolades and he says, "We got to do it again." When remember Dick Winters set the thing up and then he said, "But you don't go." And then the next day they got pulled off the line. So yeah, you can encounter those kind of situations. 

>> So you mentioned the vietnamization with Nixon's plan. How do you -- What were your contentions or your thoughts on that as he started to propose it?  

>> Well, what happens in my own case when I go into the army, I was selected for intelligence but we were detailed to combat arms. So I went through training as a infantry officer. And what they had back then were reconnaissance platoons and reconnaissance companies. And as an intel officer, this is what you want, at least my desire, you know. I went into the military also wanting to know, you know, as much as I could actually to prevent wars, you know, especially nuclear war. I mean, that was -- When the Cold War ended, you couldn't believe how happy I was because that was our major concern. So what happens in my case, while I'm down at Fort Benning, the assignments officer from intelligence comes down and he's got everybody in the room, you know, and, you know, he's taking all of them alphabetically and, you know, he skips me and keeps taking all these other guys.

^M00:10:05

And I was thinking, oh, now what. I'm the last one in the room. So everybody is gone. He comes over to me and he goes, "Listen, you speak German? Yes, sir. Well, I've got a sort of special sensitive assignment that I think you might be interested in, something where we need somebody that's fluent in the language but also can write and knows the cultures, the social aspects, the economy, the history, and everything." And I thought, oh, this is great. Yeah, sure. You know, you got to remember I was a lieutenant. I thought this is like what I want to do. this is attache-type work, right. No. What I got recruited in to was special operations, clandestine operations where we ran [inaudible] and technical operations into whatever the [inaudible] area was, eastern Europe or whatever. So while Vietnam is going on, we still have to contend with the Soviet threat, which was a much, you know, more serious one. They could, you know, eliminate the United States. North Vietnam could not, right. So I was selected for this and I went to, I was sent to Europe. 

>> So getting back to when you were a student at Penn State, you actually talked about the anti-war movement a lot in your whole summary. So what were your initial feelings towards that movement? And like did those feelings ever change as you grew up and lived?

>> Well, the thing is here at Penn State, you know, we didn't have a lot of hippies, you know. And they were coming in. And you have to remember that also going on in this time period is the widespread use of drugs, initially marijuana and then, you know, LSD and some of the more heavy stuff. And it was present here on campus. I should say present in the apartments, not on the campus, you know. You'd be a numbskull if you did it, you know, in your dorms. But the, you know, I would get into debates with some of them because my hair was, you know, I have, you know, a certain short length and they knew right away. So like even more so when I was in Germany, being an American student in Europe in 1969, Americans were not popular. And there, I would often be approached because I spoke the language. And once they found out, ah, he's American, not only that, when they found out that, you know, I was intending to go into the army, you know, oh yeah, they used to love to get into debate. And these were real Marxists, you know. 

>> So like what were the questions they would ask you?

>> Why are you in Vietnam, you know. Why do you want to colonize, you know, Vietnam. Why are you out there killing, you know, women and children, you know. I don't know if you know about the My Lai massacre. All this type of stuff, you know. Everything, the leftists [inaudible]. What we're seeing right now is the Russian use of Cold War is called disinformation but they are experts at propaganda and what we call "psy war," psychological warfare, where they want to go out and influence and cause unrest, you know, and support any of these anti-system, anti-state, anti-government. So over there, a lot of times you'd see these demonstrations and they were much larger than anything going on here at Penn State. And a couple time, you know, they'd be blocking the entrance into your building and you had to go for class and stuff. It was more contentious there than, you know, than here. I did that research to show what went on here. And people forget that one of the reasons the president doesn't live on campus anymore is because one night a bunch of demonstrators broke away from the main protest movement, went over and started throwing rocks and stones and everything. And the president and his wife had to run out with their dog, you know. 

>> So did you ever feel threatened on campus or when you in study abroad?

>> No. In fact, maybe I was sort of naive. The last three weeks of my senior term, we were on ten-week terms then, we were ordered not to wear our uniforms because they were afraid, you know, that something might happen to us.

^M00:15:12

We were all ticked off at this. You know, it was like, you know, you were sort of -- They became so, I guess, so anti-US, anti, you know, the American system that it was sort of a clash in, you know, that sense.

>> So you would say that they were disillusioned by communist propaganda like --

>> Well, it's -- One of the big reasons that you had such a massive protest movement and look at who the protestors are. We had this draft. These are the guys that were being drafted and if you look at the troops that were in the frontlines in Vietnam, you can find a preponderance of draftees. They were the ones that fought the war. I mean, you had your professionals, you know, your NCOs, but the majority of them were draftees. They didn't want to go, you know. They didn't see any sense in, you know, protecting this country that wasn't willing to, you know, fight for its own freedom. They didn't have a democracy. And when you looked into it, it was -- I mean, we were trying -- Vietnamization was not just in terms of military, but we were trying to instill a democracy and you can't do that in war. The thing that democracy needs to be successful, if you look across the world, it is an educated middle class. They have to be in the majority because they're the ones that benefit from the system and want to continue it, you know, and will counter those other, you know, extremes. It's one of the worries that we have here is that our middle class gets smaller, can it be exploited by certain political, you know, groups, shall we say. 

>> Yeah, definitely. Getting back to what you were saying about the one night where a group of protestors straddle off and started to throw bricks, I think you said. Was it throw bricks at the president's house?

>> Yeah, anything they could get. Stones. I don't know if they had -- Anything they could grab and they smashed in the windows, you know, knocked in the door.

>> So how often would you say like violence was one of their tools for protesting?

>> Thank God it wasn't that often. The real radical elements of the protest movement is called SDS, Students for a Democratic Society. And then you also had a subgroup of that here at Penn State, Coalition for Peace. And these were the guys that really said, okay, we should use extreme methods to do, you know, go after the government. And one of there, whenever they would demonstrate, there were two, you know, targets, if you will, that annoyed them the most, one being the ROTC building and the other was the Navy's research lab, you know, up on [inaudible] Street. And so they -- Now this is after I left. This is maybe '71. There were several thousand protestors went up there and they wanted to shut it down and they basically cut off access to it. And they managed to do it but this was on a Friday. So they shut it down till Monday. And the lieutenant governor came up and what happened was the students when they did these demonstrations, like when there would break in to old main, right, and they were told you have to get out of here, you know, we're going to lock up. [inaudible] not leaving. So they come in. Sometimes it was the campus police, sometimes it was the local police or it was the state police. Now the smart thing was Penn State, or I should say the governor did not mobilize the national guard and the incident in Kent State was actually after some of your bigger demonstrations here at Penn State where they would come out. And it got so bad at one of these events, they had picked up a bunch of students, you know, dragged them out of old main and stuff and put them in a bus and were going to take them down and book them. 

^M00:20:06

The demonstrators managed to stop the bus and get them out of there and start fighting with the cops. Something like 18 cops ended up in the hospital, something like six of them seriously, and I can't find what I was doing researching this, but basically "The Daily Coalition" and "The Centre Daily Times," I couldn't see any reports on students being injured. So I mean, the police showed amazing restraint that they didn't draw their firearms, you know. They were actually camped out at Beaver Stadium, 300 of them, they took them over to Beaver Stadium and put them out there and stuff. So that was a nasty episode. 

>> So how often like would you say that the groups like STS and Coalition for Peace, how often would they ever, you know, discuss with the administration, try to get concessions over what they wanted?

>> They were always doing it and the thing is, they had some -- It was funny. I think probably the most liberal leftwing students seemed to be in "The Daily Collegian" writing some of the editorials. And one time they took out a whole-page ad that listed the dead from Vietnam and said something to the effect, these dead died in vain. It was pretty -- And they were always, you know, out there submitting petitions to the administration and finally what happened was they managed -- There was to be declared a national moratorium, right, where they would just not hold classes. The SDS, they had this idea or this demand that the university was no longer relevant. They needed to focus their courses on domestic and international issues. That's where that paper, if you see the courses, you know, that they eventually demanded, you know, this was really, really upsetting. I can remember that I was in a history course. I had finally gotten the course on Germany and The Third Reich. And so the professor came in there and he said what they were demanding was, okay, we're not going to teach regular courses anymore. We're going to go and discuss these various current issues. And, you know, there was maybe 10 or 12 guys in this class and, obviously, you know, my haircut. I said to the professor, I said, well, professor that's all fine, I said, yeah, I'd be willing to do that but not in this timeframe. I'm here, you know, to get an education and learn your expertise on history. Your personal opinions are just that. So let's set up a time where we can meet and discuss these matters. And the one really long-haired guy that looked like a hippie in class, he supported me. He said, you're right. I thought that was --

>> So what would you say the overall atmosphere was once this decision was put in place that they were going to cut off the regularly scheduled classes and instead have these discussions?

>> This was -- Here's the thing, too, about because we were on terms, we went a lot longer. We went to like the first or second week of June.

>> With these classes?

>> No, no, just the system, the way it was set up. You know, you had a fall, a winter, and a spring term, right. So it went longer. Heck, our spring break was oftentimes at the end of May over Memorial Day, because I went down to the Jersey shore, you know, one time. So you had the nice weather coming out, right. And you had the option what you could do. You could take a pass/fail because you only had seven weeks completed. You could take a pass/fail or you could take the grade that you had as of the end of the seventh week. Most guys thought, hey, this is cool, you know. School's over, you know.  They were supposed to take attendance, you know, for these things. I don't know if the professor was doing it or not. I mean, I still went to my classes. There were some professors that ignored that, you know, and would do it. 

^M00:25:03

But I was also I was in the last part of the honors program where it was all independent study. You know, I'm writing my paper so that course was [inaudible] and then I had ROTC courses and they weren't canceled, you know, or modified. So it was -- I'd say most of them looked at it as an early end to the term. 

>> So they were, you know, more content with it than --

>> Yeah, it wasn't all that popular, let's say, you know, and you didn't the large amount of students actually participating in, you know, really giving a damn. 

>> So did the SDS and the other coalitions, did they find this as a success or did they start to see it as like no one cares about this?

>> No, no, no. They were, you know -- Now they had to get the people out, you know. They were very happy about it. 

>> Did they ever like have any influence in these discussions where they kind of take over, did you ever hear anything like that happening?

>> Yeah, yeah. I mean, if they came in, they wanted to take over the discussion, you know, and just rip apart the capitalistic system and, you know, the -- You got to remember, too, civil rights played a part of this. So, you know, they were very heavy into the way we were treating minorities and all those kind of problems that we have in a democratic society, they focused on that. 

>> So you said spring of 1970, they started doing this?

>> Yeah. 

>> Okay, so [inaudible]. 

>> '68, you know, the year that they were focused on here. When I look back, Penn State, the anti-war movement actually becomes stronger after '68, '69, '70, '71, because up until '68, the war had been portrayed as we were winning and, okay, so then all of the sudden when you have the Tet Offensive and the Americans can't believe that the Vietnamese or North Vietnamese were overrunning Saigon. They never got inside our embassy. There was a wall around it. They broke through the wall but they never got into the building. But still, you know, those scenes of --

>> It's more of a symbolic victory than --

>> Yeah, yeah. And from that point on and then when you add the most famous commentator Walter Cronkite come out and state that this war is lost, that put it in a downside. 

>> So what were the thoughts inside the military once Cronkite came out and said that this war is lost?

>> Well, we in the military, we called CBS the communists broadcast system, you know, because it seemed like, you know, like they were always, you know, trying to find problems with the military, you know, and any bad news that they could get and, you know, it's time, too, once the, you know, we decided we were going to pull out of Vietnam, the troops over there, I can't deny that there were drug problems, you know. And so they would go out and try to find these stories and so anything they could do to portray that as lost and, you know, they never came out let's say as being against the individual soldier but yet in those times you could wear your uniform. So when I was walking through San Francisco Airport in uniform in '71, you know, I was spit on. 

>> Really?

>> Yeah. I was told, you know, baby killer. And I'll never forget this. I went -- As I got off the plane, you had to fly back then in uniform and I went into the local bar downtown and one of my classmates was the waitress there and I was in uniform waiting for a friend we were going to meet there. She comes up to me and goes, "What are you doing?" What do you mean? "What are you in that uniform for?" She was sort of a little leftist, right. I said, "What do you think? I'm in the army." She goes, "I can't believe it. I can't believe you would do that.

^M00:30:15

Anyway, the owner doesn't like to have military in here. So he's not here now but you might want to leave before he gets here."

>> Wow, wow. 

>> That was, yeah. 

>> That's kind of where you see that whole paradigm shift because right now it's nothing like that, usually. 

>> Thank God. But now the protestors go after, look, they were protesting the military. The military, that [inaudible] troops, they couldn't even -- You got to go after the policymakers. You know, you got to make life miserable for them, you know, not the troops that, you know, trying to get off base and go some place, you know. 

^M00:30:55 ^M00:31:02

>> There's one question I wanted to ask and I forgot what it was. It had to do with these classes.  Oh, okay, here it is. Just getting back to the spring term of 1970 when they instituted all these new discussions. Did SDS and Coalition for Peace protests die down at all or do you think it was pretty constant, pretty static amount of protests?

>> They continue on after I'm gone, you know, and that's when they actually -- It's those other years where they had the larger demonstrations, I mean, as far as big numbers. And then you have the invasion of Cambodia. I'm trying to remember the timeframe for that. But no, they were a very small -- Oh, here's the interesting thing though. I forget his name. SDS, because they were a student organization, they had an academic advisor professor. This guy used to go and be present at these demonstrations and speak out and everything. And I found out this is several years later that he was denied tenure by Penn State. And so he took them to court over this and he was trying to justify it on the fact that they didn't like his  political views and he lost because they eventually labeled him as an ineffective, I don't want to say incompetent, but an ineffective, you know, professor. But he goes to another school and then he goes someplace else and gets a job.

>> I [inaudible] like Walker would do these like little memos of like his, you know, discontent with SDS and all these other protests and he mentioned that [inaudible] teacher and he said I would've been content with the police like throwing him into a bush or something like that. 

>> Do you know anything about President Walker?

>> Not much. I know this was he was talking about this Westmoreland came for the army. 

>> You saw that?

>> Yeah. 

>> That was -- Well, the thing though about Walker was he was one of the main -- He was an electrical engineer. He was one of the main developers of the acoustic homing torpedo in World War Two. 

>> Oh, wow. 

>> I mean, this guy was no dummy. That research lab that was doing that work was in Harvard. Well, Harvard started to have a slide to the left and they were saying, you know, we don't know if we really want to add to the atomic bomb. We don't know if we want to be involved in military research is going to cause all these, you know, deaths and horror and stuff. He say, okay, I'll go find another place. That's when he moves and comes to Penn State and that brought a lot of defense money, you know, here. And Penn State still has a lot of, you know, defense contracts. And, you know, we were one of the first schools to have an nuclear reactor but Walker -- And I found this out, Walker would send a personal letter to those kids being accepted at Penn State, recommending ROTC. 

>> Really?

>> And SDS got all upset with this. Actually, they got some mother to write and complain. He said, no, I'm not going to stop this because those are my personal views. So, I mean, he -- And the interesting thing is too they did a questionnaire among the students, I think these were some of the guys from ROTC. They stood out there and collected signatures for do you support retaining Penn State or should credit be dropped. 

^M00:35:07

And they got something like 800 signatures, you know, in favor of it and very few, you know, I mean, you would've thought that would've been busted up. Now where some of the confrontations used to take place is when the recruiters, recruiters were coming into the hub, right, and it was, I don't know why but it seemed like the navy was the one that they loved to go after. And they would go in there and try to block, you know, access to them. And, you know, the Navy is not getting it. They're just sitting there saying, well, we can't. But then you'd have the more conservative Penn State'ers come, you know, and they would start battling with them and stuff. 

>> Wow. It's like I wouldn't even try to do that. 

>> I know. It was -- Well, I mean, at that time I think we were about 28,000 students. So you had a wide spectrum of, you know, political views. And I'd say, I'd say you had more liberal thinking and leftwing types on the staff than, you know, especially in well, liberal arts, you know. I don't think you're going to find many engineers or ag professors to have those non-conservative views. 

>> So what were like the response of ROTC members when they were attacked by these, you know, these anti-war protestors?

>> I don't remember the exactly what was said but, you know, we were told that when you had that uniform on, you do nothing to embarrass it. And if you're, you know, if you encounter these demonstrators, just walk away. Don't get involved with any fighting. One of the funniest things was okay, you know where the intramural building is? Well, that used to be vacant. That was the intramural fields. That was also our parade grounds. So we would form up in the parking lot of Wagner Building and we had M1 rifles. That's what you drilled with. Form up, march across the street over there and that's where we learned, you know, drilling ceremonies and, you know, and when I was here, there was a colonel, I read somewhere he said we had 800 guys in the program. I think we had more but it was a lot. So you're standing out there and most of these, it's called leadership lab, all your classes came together because your freshman and sophomores, they were being drilled by the juniors and the seniors and stuff. So some guy over in East Halls and this guy had to have been in the military because he knew how to give orders. He puts up -- He puts his speaker into his window and starts blasting out, you know, orders like "right face, about face, column left, march." You know? And when you're in that big of a group, right, you would often respond, I mean, it looked like, Gomer Pyle. So we had just gotten a captain in and he'd just come out of Vietnam. He gets everybody back in formation, puts us on line and marches us over in front of the building, in front of the dorm, and he says, he [inaudible] present arms and then he starts saying to this guy, you know, using various explicatives, you know, he says, you know, "You think that's funny? Come on down here. If you don't knock it off, we're coming in there and we're going to" you know,  and, you know, we're standing in formation going ut-oh, and sure enough he almost got sent home. 

>> Really?

>> Oh, yeah. Yeah, no, no, they didn't want to do anything to, you know, get that kind of confrontation between and it was, like I said, it was a joke. This guy knew how to, you know, give out the commands and the orders. So there we were, you know, responding and this captain just more or less flipped out. 

>> Wow. 

^M00:40:00

Okay, so do you have any other comments or things that you want to mention before we finish up or --

>> Well, you didn't ask me, though, about my fraternity.

>> Oh. 

>> And then you're also, you know, we're neighbors, right. 

>> Yeah.

>> Back then, fraternities were still a big part of Penn State life. And that was moved by the fact the ratio of guys and girls was three to one. So and the alternatives of living in the dorm, the apartments, these huge nice complexes you had, we only had one of any consequence it was called blue bell and that's been since torn down. It was over, you know where Burger King is on [inaudible] Drive?

>> Yeah.

>> It was back in there. So the big attraction for fraternities was the parties that they held and, you know, the interaction with sororities. Sororities were real big. We had like 52 fraternities when I came here as a freshman. Now a lot of them fell out. Vietnam and then, I don't know, it was funny. A lot of them had dropped out. We lost about I'd say 20 by the time I was a senior basically because they couldn't get, you know, any pledges, people to come and join. And we still had hell weeks, you know, this -- And the hazing that went on was nothing unbearable. It was denigrating. You went through it with the attitude I can make it, you know. Well, you know, you played sports. And one of the worst periods in any high school football team is those two days in August, right. And you know how your coaches are yelling and screaming at you. And so in my case, we had a ex-marine. We also had football players in the house. My -- He played -- Frank Spaziani, who later on becomes head coach of Boston College.

>> Oh really?

>> Yeah. And he was a big, you know, impressive dude. And, you know, there was a lot of pushups, a lot of sit-ups, you know, but nothing that endangered you, okay. You might think -- Like our hell week, they kept us up all week. You know, it was like five days and all night long, rather, and it was it started off with it would dump this garbage over you, right, and the only clothes you had on was a burlap sack and your underpants. So and you had to wear this stuff. Now you couldn't skip classes. You had to classes though in a coat and tie. And, oh by the way, we used to go to football games in three-piece suits. Penn State thought that they were Ivy League. It was, yeah, that's how you went to a football game. 

>> Really?

>> So the thing is so when you went to class, okay, you could wash any areas that were exposed, from your wrist down, from your neck up, right. And they wouldn't let you brush your teeth. The thing that got you was if you -- They ask you a question and you didn't give the right answer, you had to take a bite of garlic. If you missed three in a row, you had this big Bermuda onion around your neck. You had to take a bite out of the apple. So I mean, your breath was really --

>> Raunchy?

>> Yeah. And so then they would give you a list of sororities and you had, like ten of then, and you had to get a sister to sign, you know, your book. And the thing is you had this pen that they were to use, right, and the pen had a string that went inside your shirt. Guess where it was attached to. These girls knew that. 

>> Ah, man. 

>> And so the nice ones and you had to go to the ones that weren't going to be jerk. The bad ones, they'd start, they knew it was attached to you, they'd start walking and he'd have to walk with them like --

>> Like you were on a leash?

>> Oh yeah. 

>> Oh, that's awful. 

>> But, you know, the issues these days about drinking, I mean, one of the things that looks like we've discovered in the house is we used to have keg parties and I'm sure at your house, down in a party room you had a bar and there were keg parties. 

^M00:45:36

In fact, I guess it was R. J. Hickey's or one of the big, you know, distributers there, Friday afternoons, I can remember it was during football season, we would always have a Friday night party before the game and then a Saturday night party, you know, after the game. It'd be keg parties. These guys would come over Friday afternoon, bring the kegs, put them down in the party room for us, then they'd come up to  our TV rooms and, okay, who's 21 and can sign for this because we had an account with them. But the point I'm trying to make is our parties were beer and now, you know, you have to serve beer, what is it bottles or cans?

>> Cans.

>> Cans, right. But they switched over to hard stuff. We didn't have -- We didn't drink a lot of hard stuff. In fact, the only time we had hard liquor was after a football game, we would have a cocktail party. And I can remember we were in coats and ties and the girls were dressed up too, so it was, you know, a very formal event and we would have generally three types of drinks. You know, what are they, 15-gallon milk cans, you know, that the farmers use, we had these. So one of them would be whiskey sours. One would be Harvey Wallbangers, and the other one would be some mystery, you know, cocktail and stuff. That's about the only time, you know, we had hard stuff. You know, and of course you can get pretty, you know, messed up on beer. But what I don't think they do anymore either, we took care, we taught our guys how to drink, you know. And you didn't have cars a lot. In our house, I think we only had four guys or three guys with cars. So you didn't have that problem. And, you know, they didn't go out of the house if they were [inaudible]. And I don't -- Here was the other thing, too. We had house mothers. Girls were not allowed above the first floor. I mean, you didn't have, you know, you didn't have that issue, you know, either but so it doesn't seem to me like the guys have this care, you know. Okay, let's face it, most of the guys are under age, right. But that's where I learned to drink and it was controlled and, you know, sure, they do, you know, chugalugs and stuff. Do you guys have those steins anymore? I don't think any house -- Every house used to have a nice porcelain stein that's sort of an English tanker, right. You had your coat of arms on there and generally the year you graduated. And do you guys give nicknames? That's the other thing. They don't do that so much in our house, either. And one of the first lineups, you know, I'll give you nicknames, you know. And in my case, you know, guys can't say my name. They see Fosnacht, right, and they said, oh, okay, you're fuzzy nuts. So it became, you know, fuzzy. And that was -- So yeah, you'd have to, you know, christen these steins and stuff occasionally, especially once you became a brother. But we didn't have these huge, you know, raves of 300, 400. In fact, our house, well you know how pretty it is, right? 

>> Yeah. 

>> We had restrictions about using the first floor and everything trying to keep it presentable and nice. We have that issue today. 

>> It's a pretty nice house. 

>> But they've got to learn to respect it. 

>> Yeah.

>> You know, I mean in your place, I've been inside, when I was down at Fort Benning several years back doing some research, I was with a, well, Wagner, you know Wagner Building?

^M00:50:08

>> Yeah. 

>> The unit that he jumped in with indeed a paratrooper in the 82nd Airborne. And I started interviewing and getting to know guys that were in his regiment to try to find ones that might've known him. Anyway, we were down at Fort Benning for a reunion and so they were graduating a class of paratroopers, new paratroopers, right, and that's when they get their jump wings. And so I asked the sergeant major, I said, "Can you pull out anybody from Penn State?" And there were two guys. One of them was a brother from AGR. 

>> Really?

>> Yeah, we have pictures together and everything. 

>> That's cool. 

>> Do you have guys in your house that are in ROTC? 

>> No.

>> No?

>> None that I can think of. 

>> Yeah. I think we only have two right now. 

>> I'm surprised that they still let them do that if you're ROTC and in a fraternity. I thought that would've been like kind of a gray.

>> Well that's another thing. That was unusual too that I was in -- Back then if you were in a fraternity, I guess you could say we were sort of snobby. You know, we felt we were something special. And so we took a lot of pride in our houses and everything too. And so it wasn't always cool to be in ROTC. Put it that way, you know. The thing is when I rushed, the guy that became our president, he was also in ROTC. 

>> Really?

>> Yeah. And we had -- I guess maybe that offset but in the classes that came after me, there weren't but a lot of my class, once they had the draft lottery, they ended up in Nam, you know. That was a big night. December 1969 when they had the lottery and everybody got their number. I got 270. I wouldn't have had to go. But it didn't matter to me. I was going anyway. I was trying to swap my number with some of my brothers. I mean, they said, no, you can't do that, you know. But no, the opportunity is here and the activities, the variety of classes that Penn State offers and I mean, let's face it. Joe Paterno and the football team put Penn State on the map and now people recognize also the academic programs of strength that we have here too. 

>> Definitely.

>> So you could go anywhere and say, you know, I went to Penn State and it's going to be something that's recognized. 

>> Yes, definitely, prestigious. 

>> You do have the stigma of Sandusky, though, [inaudible].

>> Definitely.

>> Oh, you know April 7th, that HBO movie is coming out?

>> Yeah. Yeah. I'm going to watch that. 

>> Oh, yeah. I'm sure that'll stir up the, you know, the guys. I mean, it was despicable what happened but for the NCAA to overstep their bounds. What does that have to do with football, you know? And I guess it gets so bent out of shape, I've run into guys down in Texas and when I was out in Arizona that thought the pedophile was also doing all the sexual harassment on campus. And the guy said, I'm not letting my daughter go there. The school is loaded with all these perverts. What are you talking about, you know? So, you know, that's ashamed but we'll get over it, hopefully.

>> Okay, well, thank you, Mr. Fosnacht, for the interview. 

>> It was my pleasure. Good luck with your studies here. 

>> Thank you. 

Interview by Sam Milz

^B00:00:03 >> Tech?  All right, so if you can just state your name.  >> Yep, my name is Rod Hart, and I got my Master's at Penn State in 1968 and my Ph.D. in 1970, and I've been teaching at the University of Texas Austin since 1979.  >> All right, so what made you decide to come to Penn State for graduate school?  >> Well, I was fortunate.  I had a lot of offers.  But I had a professor in undergraduate school who was my adviser, and I had done some independent study with him, research, and he had gotten his Ph.D. at Cornell, and the professor that he really loved up there was a fellow by the name of Carol Arnold.  And he had just left Cornell a couple years before to go on to Penn State, and so my adviser said, "this is the best guy in the country."  And it was frankly the closest school to where I grew up in Massachusetts.  Everything else was out in the west, Michigan and Illinois and Wisconsin and Iowa.  And those were the, you know, were among the best Ph.D. programs in communication.  So I wound up at Penn State because I was with Prudential and didn't want to go too far west.  And then mostly because this man, Carol Arnold, was such a significant scholar, and I wanted to go and study with him, which I did. ^M00:02:00 ^M00:02:06 >> So in more regards to the year of 1968, and how much that was going on like in that time period, what were you interested in at the time with everything that was going on, like the space photos, the student protests, and election of '68, Vietnam, what were just your interests?  >> Well, my primary interest was my newborn son in March of 1968.  So I must admit that that was the most important thing in my life.  We were young, married, gotten married when we were 21 or 20, and then two years later, my son was born.  So it was, personally, it was a wonderful year because he was born.  But then, you know, it was a tumultuous time on campus.  And I, you know, I study political science, as well as communication.  And so obviously I was transfixed by all of the political events.  And '68 was the campaign.  So I was heavily, you know, involved in studying the campaign, just on a professional level.  But on a personal level, you know, it was on a campus where things were beginning to get very, very testy.  So I guess it was an extraordinary year, probably the most relevant memory.  I can't remember much about 1967 or 1973, but I sure remember about 1968. ^M00:04:02 ^M00:04:06 >> With all the--I mean, obviously you had a lot of responsibilities you mentioned in your bio that you gave me.  You had just gotten married.  And like you said, you just had your son.  What was it like, what was that like with, like you said, Vietnam was breathing down your neck?  >> Yeah.  >> Balancing that and then you education and all. >> Yeah, and I was also, you know, concerned about the draft.  I came from a blue collar town in Massachusetts.  [ Inaudible ]  Not that many people went to college.  And virtually nobody went to graduate school.  So I wasn't, I wasn't drafted.  Because at that time, people who were in school were deployed, and then there was a great concern to produce more college professors.  And so graduate students were deferred as well instead of going into higher education.  Nevertheless, those deferments dropped away as Vietnam got hotter and hotter.  And most of those deferments dropped away.  I had a deferment because I was married.  And then that dropped away.  And then, because I had a son, married people who had children were deferred.  But again, as time, as the war went on, those deferments dropped away.  So I was constantly concerned about being drafted, and fortunately was not.  So that was a big--that was on our minds at all times.  >> Right.  I can see how it would be.  How would it not?  I can't even--yeah, how scary that must have been.  I know my grandfather talks about it, and just I, yeah, can't imagine.  >> And some people were, you know, dropping out of school and volunteering.  But I certainly wasn't going to do that with a brand new child.  And I, you know, I wanted to get my degree.  And then my last year at Penn State, I was--there were no more deferments at all.  And so I stood for the draft, and I think I had numbers from 1 to 365, number of days in the year.  And my number was something like 267, which was really good.  You didn't want to be a 1.  So that was that, that was my year of graduating with my Ph.D.  But it was also the year when I was really exposed to the draft.  But I got a high draft number, and so I didn't have to serve anyway.  >> Right.  So on campus at the time, were there a lot of anti-war protests going on?  And if so, how was your experience with that?  >> Yeah, there were.  And I was not, you know, a lot of my fellow students were heavily involved.  And, you know, I couldn't--I was so preoccupied with trying to, you know, and we had very little money.  I was on a fellowship, which was great, because it was a nice honor and all that, but it didn't pay very much.  So I taught, I taught the basic speech course once in a while, but you could only do a little bit of that when you're on a fellowship, but fellowship was designed mostly to get you--advance your studies.  So, but I did have--I did see a lot of the protests.  There was a professor at my department, Joey Phillips, who was kind of a guru at the time.  He was one of the most popular professors on campus.  He was very, very magnetic and flamboyant.  And he was one of the most important faculty members on campus because he was really good at talking to the students, and to try to keep them from being, you know, too out of control.  And he had a lot of credibility with the students because he was a very left of center guy, but he also had a good deal of sense.  And so they trusted him, and he was a professor that I had had in class several times, and I had great respect for him.  But, you know, he was way to my left.  I'm just sort of a centrist, I guess.  So I remember being involved with him.  And then I taught the basic speech course once in a while, and I do remember the times that the university--I lost the dates, but there was a time which, it was in the spring, and it might have been the spring of '70.  And the university shut down early.  We had trimesters in those days so that the one, you know, fall, winter, spring, summer.  And so I think in the spring, the protests were really hot, and the university decided to shut down early.  And I remember that semester.  And if you were teaching, students could be dismissed without, you know, there could be--they could be dismissed in terms of the university, and you go home and stay away, or they could stay in school.  And I remember the class I taught, the students stayed there, and we had incredible conversation.  Kids continued to come to class even though the university had officially exempted them from doing so.  But they continued to come, and that was, you know, those were very memorable conversations with the undergraduates and trying to figure it all out.  ^M00:11:13 ^M00:11:15 >> Do you think that--you were a graduate student at the time.  Had you been an undergraduate student, how would your relationship with what was going on have been different?  >> That's a great question.  That's a really good question.  I'm sure it would have been very different.  You know, having said that, though, I'm a political centrist.  And so, and, you know, the stuff that I study is how can you use communication to bring people together?  And so I had never--I was never attracted to the strong left wing, or right wing, you know, activist end of the continuum.  I've always, like I said, I was brought up to be more of that kind of middle of the road.  Let's see if we can't figure a way of working together to solve this problem that we've got.  So I think I would have, you know, I'm sure I would not have been a campus activist, for sure.  But I also wouldn't have been, you know, a reactionary.  There are a lot of students, not so much at Penn State, but across the country, some of the more conservative places where they were, you know, supporting the war and a lot of patriotic rallies and marches and stuff, that wasn't--Penn State was much more dominantly left.  So I think I would have been caught in between.  But I'm sure I would not have been in as an undergraduate.  I would not have been a forceful activist, either for the left or the right.  >> Right.  And also you mentioned members of the faculty.  What was, at the time, what was their--how did they react to it?  Was it so much that they were--because you had, like you mentioned, the opposition protests.  Obviously, I don't think they were involved in that.  But to what degree did they oppose, or how did they react to the protests?  >> You know, everybody was, you know, engulfed in, you know, if you saw two people standing in a hallway talking, whether it was a guy and a gal or graduate students or undergraduates or two professors or something, and you had these kind of guesses to what they were talking about, it wouldn't have been the New York Giants, or, you know, or beer.  It would have been the war.  It was everywhere.  It just poured out of the walls.  Because, you know, the students were all, you know, 18 to 22.  And they were all eligible for the draft.  And increasingly, students were drafted out of college in Pennsylvania and everywhere else.  So it was--you couldn't get way from it.  Just, it was just that, it was just that dominant.  But faculty were very much involved in it.  And the kind of courses that I was taking, courses, you know, in politics and rhetoric and sociology, those areas were so focused upon things like the war in Vietnam, so, you know, if you were at home and you turned to a television set and the news was filled with it, so it was almost impossible to escape.  And it was just, you know, a way of life for a good two years.  And faculty were, you know, this one faculty member that I mentioned, Gerald Phillips, and I don't know if there's any videos of those days at Penn State, but if there is, he'd be very much a dominant, dominant force in them.  And I knew him, and I was a little, I was a little spooked by him because, you know, he had such strong far left beliefs.  So we never really were on the same page politically.  But I had great respect for him.  And he did his best to try to keep things rational in the protests.  ^M00:16:05 ^M00:16:08 >> Where did you find that you obtained most of your news from?  You mentioned the TV earlier.  What newspaper did you read, or anything like that?  >> Well, I would have, you know, we got the daily paper.  There was no internet in those days.  So news was sore.  We had cable television, which I had never heard of until we moved to Central Pennsylvania.  Back east in New England, you just had antennas on your roof and stuff.  But in Central Pennsylvania, you couldn't get a signal.  So they invented this thing called cable.  And it seems kind of funny from today's point of view.  But, you know, so we had the networks.  And so, you know, your eyes were glued to it.  Nightly news, you know, Walter Cronkite and those people kind of translated the world for you and the war.  And you just would never miss the nightly news.  And, you know, I would pick up the New York Times as often as I could too.  So I guess those were the main sources of information.  It was just a different--from an information point of view, it was just a totally different world.  There wasn't as much information, and it was much more vanilla.  You didn't get a lot of range of flavors of news.  >> Right.  >> Saying it was vanilla is not to diminish it.  Is just meant that there weren't that many flavors.  There were three networks.  There were, you know, the New York Times, the Pennsylvania Post, and Pittsburgh paper in Philadelphia.  But even in the daily, is it the Collegiate? >> Yes. >> On campus, yeah.  I don't remember.  And that would be interesting for you to look at.  I don't remember, but I'm sure that there was commentary in the daily paper.  I would have picks that up every day on the way to campus.  And it probably got politicized more and more as the war went on.  >> Do you think that--I mean, I don't want to get too much involved with how the media is today.  But do you think that the way that it was disseminated then, how does that compare to now?  You said there wasn't as much information.  It was much more vanilla.  Do you think there's a difference there?  >> You know, absolutely.  And, you know, they used to talk about Walter Cronkite, who was, would, you know, who broadcast the nightly use for CBS.  They called him the most trusted man in America.  And I think that might be true, because people at that time knew that the news was objective, and each of the networks had a, you know, limited number of people that you saw a lot.  Eric Severi for NBC.  And so these were people that were implicitly trusted.  The news was thought to be completely objective.  And they only told you the facts.  Well, then, as, you know, very famously, as the war went on, at one point, LBJ is, when Walter Cronkite started to comment on things that were not favorable to the lighthouse, LBJ is quoted as saying, "fuck it, we've lost Cronkite."  And what he meant was that the difficulties of the Vietnam War were now beginning to fill the airwaves.  And Johnson, who had three television sets in the White House, as he watched all three networks with a remote control device, switching from one to the other, he knew that the media were reporting what was going on, which in that case, people were dying, and increasingly so.  And so he couldn't, you know, the establishment no longer could count on the news being red, white and blue.  And so today's media I suppose is an outgrowth of that.  And I think a lot of, a lot of reporters and the news media in general started to shift, and to be much more critical of establishment politicians.  And so now you get Fox and MSNBC and a hundred other stations screaming at you from every end of the continuum.  So it's not vanilla anymore.  And you could see the beginnings of that during the Vietnam period.  And, of course, later on, it was Nixon and Watergate, and it didn't take very long until, you know, by the late 70s and early 80s, the national media were a much more aggressive contrarian form than they ever had been in the 50s and 60s when I was growing up.  >> Right.  Do you think--I lost my train of thought there.  Do you think at that moment when Cronkite sort of told it like it was, they were reporting on how the war was actually going, at the time, I would think that that sounds like what should be done.  You should say how things are going.  But obviously it's led I guess down this road to where we have now.  But at the time, do you think it would have been considered a negative thing?  >> Yeah, it's so interesting.  I mean, I would imagine it would be a really interesting course to have a journalism course try to imagine how World War II would have turned out in a different media environment, or how the Korean War would have turned out in a different media environment.  Because I think Vietnam was the first war where--there will always be journalists, and they're always reporting the stories.  But with television and the ability to go to Vietnam and broadcast through satellite uplinks and that sort of thing, which was only virginal at the time, but you could, you know, they could get video feed back to the country so much more quickly in Vietnam.  And so you could actually see with your eyes and see the interviews with soldiers, and you could see the desperation and the sadness and the body bags.  And you never saw that in Korea in Vietnam in World War II.  And so being there was actually happening.  Again, for someone your age, it seems ridiculous to even think of anything else.  You know, the on the ground reporter, you could almost--you could get close to the ground even though you were sitting in Central Pennsylvania, and you could see and hear the sounds of war.  That was something, you know, Americans really had never written this before.  They could see a film at the movie theater during secular war in Korea that was narrated, a lot of guns shooting off.  But it was, you know, not nearly the kind of power, that intimacy that television brought to the Vietnam War.  You felt like you were there.  And increasingly, you felt revulsion for being there. ^M00:25:23 ^M00:25:33 >> I may bounce around a little bit here, but what--were you interested in music at all?  What kind of music did you like back then?  >> Yeah, you know?  >> And what sort of effect do you think that had on the anti-war movement and everything that was going on really?  >> Yeah, no, I think it certainly did.  And it was, you know, it was folk music.  But it wasn't what you'd think of as country music today.  It was folk music, which, you know, Peter, Paul and Mary.  And the singer, Joan Baez, it began to have political, political overtolerance to their music.  And the music became angrier.  And it was music of the people.  And increasingly, it became, you know, it turned into the 70s music, which was much more rock.  And then, you know, and it was rock with a message.  So that was sort of the transition period.  Folk music really led into that, that rock era, with Dylan and those people who were also angry.  But I had grown up with, you know, bebop music, right?  Pat Boone and girls with poodle skirts and stuff like that.  So you'd have to go read a history book to know what I'm talking about.  But, you know, it was a very innocent--my high school years were very innocent kind of music where, you know, girls had ponytails and guys had crew cuts, and it was all lovey-dovey kind of music.  But then in the later 60s is when things got angrier.  And my undergraduate school, the University of Massachusetts, a [inaudible] was in the class with me, and I remember listening to her out on the sidewalk, and she would play, and she became a voice of protest, as I was in graduate school.  So the music really was reflecting the changes, and it was no more pearls and ponytails and poodle skirts and, you know, rock and roll and the all sort.  It was much more message-centered music.  ^M00:28:33 ^M00:28:35 The rap of its day, I guess.  >> I think I'm a little more familiar with music at that time than the rap.  I'm always intrigued.  Like how much did music--like I was watching a documentary.  I think Joan Baez was talking about Bob Dylan. >> Yep. >> And he saw Joan Baez at a protest and asked her, "where is Bob?"  And she said something along the lines of, "Bob never comes to these." >> Yeah. >> So how much did music influence the protests, would you say?  >> Oh, they were central.  They were always, I mean, and I remember that at Penn State, sometimes you would go to the protest to hear the music, you know?  It sounds awful, but, I mean, you know, it was--music was really important.  And again, it was mostly this kind of folk music.  So that meant banjos and guitars and vocals, and no back-up kind of brass or anything to it.  So it was very kind of native clear music.  The lyrics were really important.  And that works for everything, really.  And, you know, it just occurred to me that I went to a lecture at Penn State, which was, it was incredible.  I mean, it was--I forget where it was, but it must have been three or four times as many people tried to get into the lecture as could.  And I remember standing for about 90 minutes in this lecture by a fellow by the name of William Kunstler, K-U-N-S-T-L-E-R.  And it was a dangerous time because there were so many students.  We didn't have fire marshals.  They weren't as careful as they are today.  And the kids were angry.  And he was a lawyer for members of what we'll call a Chicago 7.  And they were protesters who, from the night 1968 protests in Chicago, who had been arrested, and Kunstler was their attorney.  And it was a powerful, powerful lecture.  But I remember being there because I wanted to hear him.  But it was a very volatile time because there were so many students in the room.  I know.  I can see the building in my head, but I've forgotten the name of it.  I know what it is on campus.  But it was, you know, and there was music that had preceded it, and then kids marched to the theme when they got there and realized they couldn't get in to hear Kunstler.  And I don't know if they were able to pour his voice outside through loud speakers or not.  I've kind of forgotten that.  But I do remember it being, to me, the most danger I felt during my time at Penn State was that evening with Kunstler.  ^M00:32:35 ^M00:32:43 >> Since your time in college at Penn State and grad school, and your following career as a professor, do you--are there any notable differences that you've noticed develop between college students of the late 60s and today?  And to so, any similarities, differences?  Would you like to speak on that?  >> That's a great question.  Yeah, I mean, I think I've noticed a number of [inaudible] of students.  I mean, the kids that I taught in the basic speech class, they were going to college.  Most of them were first generation.  Their parents, you know, relatively few of their parents had been to college.  They're first generation.  They wanted to come and get a degree and get a job.  And so they were, I'd say, fairly placid.  So I could--but during my four years there, I could see the differences.  And so that--and then that group--and they became angry and more discerning, politically discerning.  And I could see the beginning of that in the late 60s.  And then as the 70s occur, you know, went on, and then suddenly young people took politics more seriously, they got, they were much more involved, protesting Nixon and a lot of that, so that, like a saw, I felt the politicization, which made, as a professor then, I was a young faculty member, teaching took on a different flavor.  It wasn't just about getting stuff into people's heads.  It was about helping people shape themselves as people in addition to getting stuff in their head.  And then the 80s came, and, you know, I could have passed on a lot of those kids because all they wanted to do was get rich.  And they call them me generation.  And it really was that.  It was a declining interest in political life.  And it was all about, you know, how quickly can I get my [inaudible].  But that was a fairly short period of time.  And then, I mean, I love the students today who take life a lot more seriously.  I mean, they're concerned about a lot of the things that are going on in the world.  But they have a much broader sense of justice and what's right and wrong and how people should be treated, you know, racial politics.  You know, students today are so much more enlightened about that.  And I guess that's what I've always taught, teaching at really good universities, and so the students have always been more concerned about such matters than, you know, maybe kids just up here at, you know, just blue collar kind of colleges.  So yeah, I've seen a lot of changes.  But I could, you know, increasingly, I mean, over the years, I've seen much more awareness and concern about what's going on in the world and students' roles as they're changing with things that are going on.  >> You're not saying all these nice things about my generation because you're talking to me, though, are you?  >> No, I'm not.  I love your generation.  It's a worried generation, economic worries.  I can see in my students' eyes and in their writing, I can see the effects of 2008, and the economic decline.  You know, I really can.  But it's not coming out as a, well, a lot's happened, so now I've got to go and get my first million, you know, before I'm 26.  It's not coming out that way.  It's, I want to be part of--I want to have a meaningful life, and I don't want to make the mistakes that previous generations have made.  So it's much more, much more reflective.  I find your generation much more reflective.  I taught a class last semester, and my students were--it wasn't hard to get people to have to question values, you know?  You know, this happened and this happened, so is it right or is it wrong?  That kind of a conversation.  Sometimes over the years, kids' eyes would roll because it sounded preachy.  That's not true from what I've seen of your generation.  People know that, you know, you can have stuff in your head, but if you've got the wrong values, it doesn't, it doesn't work. >> What's one thing, a piece of advice that you would give a student today from my generation?  ^M00:38:19 ^M00:38:30 >> Reflecting back on 1968, or in general?  >> I guess as a student back then, and over your time, spending time with so many students since then.  >> Yeah, I think it's--I think your generation is challenged by having too much information available.  And I think the temptation for you all to wait until the important stuff gets to you somehow through Facebook or Snapshot or something instead of aggressively informing yourself.  I worry a lot about that for your generation, that you can take, you can take information casually instead of--and therefore, take it secondhand or thirdhand or fourthhand.  I think that's a great danger that you all are facing.  I mean, all of us are I suppose in some senses.  You know, fake news.  Who do you trust?  And one way of doing it, if you're, you know, a 20-year-old say, throw up your hands and say, "eh, if it's important, somehow [inaudible] and tell me what's going on."  And I see the temptation of that because there's so much out there, and it's so contradictory.  So I guess my, I guess my pain piece of advice, maybe because of what I teach, is be in charge, be your own information manager.  Don't let someone else do it for you.  Be aggressive about it.  And people say, "well, who can I, who can I trust?"  It's easy to know who you can trust.  You know, if you're not paying for the information, you're an idiot, you know?  And so pay for the information.  Buy a newspaper, you know?  Subscribe to, if you have to, to get, you know, cable information from the networks, because those people are paid, you know, they're going out and getting information for you.  So if the information is free, I'd really be suspicious of it.  I think you're as smart as what you're willing to pay for.  And, you know, again, I think your generation is tempted to say, "I don't want to pay for it, because I can get it, I can get it free."  Well , you can get a lot of stuff free, and it's dangerous, it's dangerous for you.  It's sort of like drugs, you know?  If you go to a doctor and he gives you a prescription, you've got to pay for the prescription, the drugs.  You know, if you go to the wrong party and someone gives you a pill for free, well, you know.  >> Yeah.  ^M00:41:40 ^M00:41:44 I'd like to talk more about that a little bit.  But also, do you think that--I think I've noticed like there is an oversaturation of information available to people now, like you said.  Do you think in the 60s, you also mentioned earlier, like you just, you watched the nightly news, you watched Cronkite, you read the newspaper.  Do you think that was better?  Because I think there's more information now, but there's so much of it that it's so easy to get like desensitized and just say, "I'm tired of hearing about."  >> Yeah, yeah, I think you're absolutely right, Sam.  It is easy to get desensitized.  And you can know too much.  So I think that, you know, yeah, your generation has just a lot of challenges in this kind of mediated world.  I mean, I remember as an undergraduate, I never read a newspaper for the first couple years.  I mean, who would read a newspaper?  That's something the old people did.  Now, again, I was just out of high school, and it was passed, you know, it was our [inaudible] time.  And kids used to be proud of the fact that, ah, I don't know what's going on in the world, you know?  It's hard for you to imagine that.  It's hard for me to imagine it.  But I remember, you know, the daily newspaper at my university had which university was having which party on which evening.  You know, that was the newspaper.  Now, that changed in the late 60s dramatically.  And so student newspapers became much more organs of information and change.  And we all became much more information-literate because of that.  You know, you mentioned something about--my memory of the protests at Penn State were these clouds of smoke.  We talked, you know, I mentioned drugs and passing, but that was the first time I ever smelled that kind of odd smell.  And there were a lot of people doing a lot of marijuana at those protests, which I have to admit, I hate to admit it to a young student today, but I tried marijuana once, and that was pretty much it.  So I'm not very hip, I'm afraid.  >> That's okay.  >> I like drinking because I always had a feeling I kind of knew where I was.  I tried pot once or twice, and it had its own mind, and I didn't like that feeling at all.  >> Do you think--from my understanding, at the time, it seemed more like, like drugs like marijuana where used.  It was sort of like a way to stick it to the man.  Whereas now it's more of just like, yeah, we're going to get high and have a good time.  And like.  >> Yeah, yeah.  >> I mean, I see, like if somebody goes to class high, I don't see the point of that, you know?  Like who are you sticking it to at that point?  Being reckless and dumb.  >> Yeah, no, yeah.  Well, you know, one thing about marijuana, as I, as I, in my mind's eye, I see these protests out in front of the Old Main at Penn State.  That's where they were, out on the grass.  And it would fill from one side to the other, and all the way down to, was it Atherton, was that the name, street?  >> College.  >> Well, okay.  Yeah, right, Atherton is the one that cuts, intersects there.  Yeah, I mean, it was filled many, many days.  But the other thing that was interesting is that while you see these plumes of smoke, we also saw people passing these things around to one another.  So it was really, it was a communal drug.  And that was part of the protests.  I mean, it was--these people, their arms were linked as they stood in front of, you know, police from time to time.  But they were also passing, they were sharing a drug.  You know, I don't know the drug scene today.  But I'm guessing it's more of an individual thing.  This was a public collective act, you know, and maybe people do that in parties now and pass one to another.  But these are small spaces.  This was out in public.  And that was part of the vibe.  That was part of the energy force at the time.  >> And from your point of view at the time, do you think that had--I'm sure that some people played that as a way to sort of delegitimize what these groups were doing or trying to say.  >> Absolutely.  Absolutely.  >> What--to what degree did you notice that happening?  And also, what did you, what do you take away from that?  >> No question, you know, the hippies, what we called, and, you know, they're all Berkeley students, of course, were the most far left.  But, you know, that vibe traveled across the country.  So it, it did, it did delegitimize, and then it spawned Richard Nixon and what he called his silent majority where blue collar people who should be nominally Democrats, some voted for Nixon because of patriotism.  It's very similar in some ways to today with Trump.  You know, Trump has an appeal to certain--and you know that in Pennsylvania--to certain blue collar people because of--well, some say because of economic promises.  And to some extent, he represents the patriotic establishment, even though it's, you know, much to the detriment of most of the blue collar people who voted for him.  And so that division was spawned by the beginning in Vietnam.  And a lot of people reacted to these dirty pot-smoking left wing students on campuses, and how they were tearing the flag, wearing the flag on the seat of their jeans and burning the flag, in some cases.  So that really was spawned there.  And I don't remember.  I think it was too early in the late 60s when I was there.  I taught at Purdue for nine years after I graduated from Penn State.  That was a very conservative campus.  But even there, you know, you could see the left-right division pretty dramatic.  ^M00:49:45 ^M00:49:48 And drugs.  So drugs were a big part of that, yeah.  >> Right.  All right.  Well, we're just about out of time.  Is there anything you want to add before I stop the recording?  >> No, I don't know, you know, I think the interesting thing--when I think back about that time, I just think of the time of just extraordinary confusion.  What I don't know is whether there was so much confusion because I was so young, and that if you're between 18 and 25, it's always confusing because between 18 and 25, and just figuring out life.  So I remember it just as a tremendously confusing time.  Every belief that I had was being questioned every day.  And I don't--I wish I knew whether that was because I was young, or it was because of that era.  And I don't know.  Does life seem totally confusing to you?  >> Yeah. ^M00:51:10 [ Laughter ] ^M00:51:13 That's interesting, because if I think about what I've learned about our country since World War II, it's almost like a lot of it has to do with like the baby boomer generation.  And like the way you just phrased that, it's like that's about the time that that whole huge segment of the population hit.  >> Yeah, yeah.  >> So it was just a confusing time for our country.  It was a confusing time for each individual person.  >> Right.  >> I don't know.  >> Yep.  Yeah, the 10 years before I went to college would have been a very, very conservative time.  And I'm sure kids went to college.  And I'm sure they were confused to some extent because they were young.  But everybody knew what was right and wrong.  Everybody went to church, you know, everybody saluted the flag.  And that was definitely not true in the late 60s.  And religion, I was brought up, you know, staunch Roman Catholic, and all of those beliefs started to cave on me when I was in graduate school [inaudible] Catholic school.  And, you know, that is not a progressive kind of education.  But all those beliefs started to fall away, and I've started to question everything.  You should do that when you're in school.  But boy, you had to do it in the late 60s because that was the only game in town was to question everything, and everything that [inaudible] said. >> And not only coming out of the more conservative time of the late 50s and before that, but also all the--I went to Catholic school too, so I know.  Not the most progressive.  But like as soon as--college, it was like, whoa, like everything is, yeah.  I don't know if that helped, but it certainly doesn't help make things less confusing.  >> No.  You know, at the same time when I think back, I think back about Penn State football, and it was rocking and socking and going like crazy.  And there were some, you know, you were up for the national championship, and I'm ashamed to say, I think it was 1970 when Penn State was undefeated and the University of Texas at Austin was undefeated and at the end of the season.  And Richard Nixon declared that UT was the national champion, which at the time really, really pissed me off.  I've come to agree with President Nixon since.  ^M00:54:07 [ Laughter ] ^M00:54:10 So that was happening too, you know?  It was one of Penn State's best times for football.  And kids would go to that, you know?  So it was weird.  It was just weird.  On Friday afternoon, they would be smoking dope and protesting.  And then on Saturday, they'd all show up at the game.  And so that's even more confusing.  ^M00:54:35 ^M00:54:40 >> I think I'm going to stop the recording.  >> Okay.  >> You can stay on if you'd like.  ^E00:54:47

Interview by Kara Fesolovich

>> Did we miss all the rest of it?

>> Oh, it's recording? >> Oh, no, no. It, like, stopped for, like a second. I don't know what happened. It's good. >> Okay. Okay. Anyway, you know, I think it was '69 when there was a demonstration at Old Main, and they tried to occupy Old Main. For the most part, that was a very small percentage of the Penn State student body. You know, and I don't know how many students were on campus then, but it was certainly less than what we have now. Maybe 25, 30,000, and that was just a very small group. And, for the most part, they were ignored, and only the people who were very actively involved in the political movements of the time were even aware that some of that stuff was going on. So, it was just, it was a very, especially, initially, when I first arrived at Penn State was a very conservative, very stayed kind of an environment there. Very, just very '50s almost.  >> Yeah. >> Feel like the, that we were the generation that really witnessed the massive change from, but it's almost like before and after night. If you take the middle, you know, year 1967, '68. That is a demarcation line, you know, before and after. Before was the time of innocence and conservative, very conservative living. And then, after was obviously the turmoil of the '60s having an impact and really changing society. And, you know, we're still seeing the changes to this day. But, it was fermenting during that time at Penn State, and Penn State was behind in terms of getting caught up in it. And, I missed, I graduated in March, so I missed the Penn State shootings and the aftermath of that. Campus was closed down, classes were stopped, kids left early. But, I missed all of that, so my recollection of that time was, you know, much less awareness of a radical movement than maybe some other people who lived through that Spring semester, Spring term.  >> Going off of that, we were, we kind of learned in class about the living arrangements at Penn State. How, like, girls had to stay in dorms all four years. Was that still true when you went to school, or? >> I was, again, I was the transition year. >> Right.  >> I came in in '66, and at that time, yeah, there were girls' dorms and, you know, there was no coed dorms. Certainly, no, there weren't even boys allowed on the floor if there were, and the, we had curfews. We had to be in, I believe it was 11:00 during the week and 1:00 on weekends, and that changed very, very quickly. And, it changed gradually in the sense that every semester, terms, we were on terms then, the ten week terms. So, every term, it seemed like another rule was relaxed, and there was a lot of turmoil in the school administration trying to figure out how to deal with the demands for more freedom by women and still a concern about protecting them. Because it was a very male dominated university at the time. I mean, women were in the minority. It was at least two to one, maybe three to one. And so, there was a need felt by the administration to be protective of girls, and I think it wasn't, we weren't aware of it, necessarily, in terms of, you know, the decisions that were being made. But, we obviously saw the impact of it. And, by the time I graduated, I think we still had the dorms, dorm rooms were doors were locked at 3:00 or 4:00 in the morning. You had to get in before they locked the doors, but everybody propped the doors open. Boys were allowed on the floor. They, at one point, you weren't even really allowed to be in men's off campus housing. You had to, that was against the rules. You could have been, you know, kicked out for violating the rule. So, it went from that very, very strict environment in loco parentis, you know, where the university is serving as a parent, to by the end, really, all the rules were gone. And then, it wasn't long after that, after in the '70s when, you know, they changed to having coed dorms and got to the point where it is now.  >> So, while you were at Penn State, was there an interest that you developed from the atmosphere that you didn't have before you started, or anything that, like, about your interest changed when you came to school? >> I think, obviously, the career preparation was. >> Right. >> A major change versus my interest in student government and leadership, that was a continuation from what I had done in high school. I think I grew up in a small town. I was the first in my family to go to college. Was a very rural community, and so some of the urban issues were new to me, and the civil rights movement and women's rights movements were just taking shape then. And so, I think it probably, in terms of the civil rights movements, I was very supportive of that. There were very few black students at Penn State at the time, and it was hard for them to have a voice. I was always supportive of their goals, even though, again, I, there was one black girl in my entire town. So, I think I built more of an awareness of those issues than I had had before I came. And, the women's rights issues that was manifested in, you know, being part of leadership of women's organizations and more than I was never an active feminist. But, I was more demonstrate that you have the ability to do things and take a leadership role, and that will open doors for, not only for myself, but for other women. And, that really followed me through my post Penn State life. I was, in my career, I was, you know, that first wave of working mothers. I was the first one in management to be given the ability to, you know, work at home a few days a week. And, broke new ground within the corporate world getting, addressing daycare issues for women and backup daycare and things like that. So, I think my, maybe at the time, I didn't realize that those opinions were being formed, but they were. And, in a different way than burning bras or protesting. It was more, you know, break the barriers by doing rather than talking.  >> So, that was kind of following up on my next question. In your, as your career has gone on, like, do you see anything that happened at Penn State that is, like, influenced your career? You kind of answered that. >> Yeah. And, just, I've felt like my preparation at Penn State academically and having the ability to almost self-create a major really opened a lot of doors, you know, and having the help of a professor to steer me in the right direction in a field that is not very well known. Demography isn't, you know, a very popular major or field. So, I think that the groundwork was laid for that by professors who took interest in me and advised me.  >> Going off of that. It actually, it was going in and out before he recording. Would you be able to talk about your major and your courses here one more time? I'm sorry. That section got cut off. >> Oh, sure.  >> I'm really sorry about that. >> [inaudible] it's fine. It's fine. Technology, right? >> Yeah. I know. It's great until it doesn't work.  >> I know. So, I started out in microbiology. >> Right. >> And then, I switched when I got to Chem 12. Went into Fashion Merchandising. That was just too, not academically challenging enough. And, ended up in Sociology, worked my way through courses and gravitated, then, towards research, research methods and statistics. Dr. Gordon D. Young who is a demography professor was a mentor.  ^M00:09:59 I maintained contact with him, really, until recent years. I still had connections with him. And then, Fern, whatever her name is. I want to say Willis. Who was a statistics professor in the College of Agriculture, and I took advanced statistics courses from her.  >> Thank you. Sorry about that, again.  >> No problem. >> So, on campus, they were talking about, like, a few, like, how at Penn State we had, there was different bands and events that happened here. Was there anything that you remember attending? Like, any, like, big, I don't know, like stars of the time that came? I think, I can't remember what our professor was talking about, but he said that someone came. I can't remember. >> [inaudible] So, yes. Social life at Penn State at the time was really centered on the Greek system. >> Right. >> There were, you know, socials, and then there were big, big parties. And, there were bands that were there. And then, the concert scene was, you went, you know, it cost money to go at the time. It wasn't, compared to today, probably nothing. But, you know, four or five dollars, but at the time, it was an expense if you were living like most of us were, on very strict budgets. So, going to a concert wasn't just automatic, and I do remember James Brown, and I do remember going to, I think, maybe Chicago and maybe one of the Motown groups. And, I don't remember whether it was the four tops or Smokey Robinson, the Miracles, or the Temptations. But, one of those groups. And, I believe that was all at Penn State. I know I've been to those concerts, but I think they were at Penn State. And then, there was a group called Magnificent Seven. They were a Chicago style band, and they played, they were very popular. Kind of like I probably like Go Go Gadget or something that you have today. And, they played at some of the big fraternity parties. So, those events were actually bigger than going to a concert in Rec Hall. >> Yeah. >> I think. >> Just, so I actually write for the Collegian Today, and it's been going through, like, a lot of change recently. Obviously, with technology, so the, I don't know, you probably don't keep up. But, the print pages have gone down to two days this semester. So, I was just wondering, you kind of, again, answered this a little bit earlier, but what kind of role do you think the paper played at Penn State at that time, since you can see its decline now.  >> Yeah, no. It was definitely, it was, you definitely looked for it. Especially if, you know, being in student government and, you know, number of activities. You wanted to see what was being written about whatever issue had been, had come up. So, I always looked for it, and it was always, I think, played a really important role. I think on campus the students that wrote and managed the Collegian were looked up to, and it was part of the glue that kept the student body together. And, if you had issues that you wanted to get out, like when I ran for office, you know, you had to print up flyers and put them in places near where the Collegian would be picked up. And, put, you know, those bulletin boards were another key area for communication. So, and without the Collegian, there would have been no avenue for student communications, you know, across the campus. So, obviously, not only now it has, you've got the internet and technology. But, you've got competitors. You've got Onward State. >> Right. Yeah. >> So. >> So, and student government. Oh, I'm sorry.  >> Oh, that's all right.  >> In student government, what did you mention your role. Did you join your freshman year, or did you gradually get more and more involved?  >> You know, no. Probably most of it was, began my sophomore year, and then, I think I, this is where the timing gets fuzzy. I believe I ran for undergraduate student government was probably in '69 or, I don't know. It was probably I don't know when the elections were. It was probably spring of '68 through, because I graduated in March of '70. So, by the time my senior year, I was pretty heavy into looking for a job and all that. >> Yeah. >> So, and I was, I won, and you know, was elected, and I sat. and, I went to a few meetings. I did not feel a connection to student government. The leadership and some of the issues that came up, it was very political at that time. You know, there were issues about the draft and the impact, you know, taking stands on national issues. And, I was not active politically in that sense, and so I was more interested in very student focused issues, whether it was, you know, at the time, there wasn't enough housing. And, kids were being housed in hallways and rec rooms and was issues like that that I was concerned about. And, I was less concerned about the political, national political scene. So, I didn't want to, I found my involvement in student government wasn't in line with where my interests lie. And, I think, working on the Panhel executive board, those issues, you know, in terms of, just interaction with fraternities and more the social scene and, you know, good governance and making sure everybody was sticking to the control board rules and things like that. Those things were much more important to me than the national political scene.  >> What sorority were you in, which branch? >> Alpha Chi Omega. >> Oh, okay. And, what was your position on the Panhellenic Council? [inaudible] >> I was secretary of Panhel. >> Oh, okay. >> And, VP of Alpha Chi Omega.  >> So, in terms of studying, personally, I really like studying in the stacks in the library. I'm just wondering, on campus, did you tend to, like, was it more common to, like, study in the dorms or did you go to the library, or where was your? >> [inaudible] was very common to study in the stacks. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. And, like I said, if you had to do a research project, you know, you had to go to the card file to find it. And then, you. >> Right. >> You know, had to spend a lot tracking down the books, and you had to hope that the book would be available. So, a lot of time was spent at the library. And then, during finals time, a lot of studying happened in the sorority suites. They were turned into the kind of like study halls, and they were very, you know, well managed. And, I was one of those students that let things go until the last minute, and you know, pull all-nighters. So, that was a good place to be with other people to help you stay awake. But, yeah. The stacks were a big thing. >> You mentioned earlier about football games. Do you think it was as big as they are today, or like, tailgating and stuff like that, or? Do you think? >> Yeah. So, that was the very different. I'm sure you've probably seen some of the pictures. So, yes. It was, so my freshman year was Jo Paterno's first year as head coach. So, we grew up in, yeah, so we grew up in the Paterno era. And, that was a time from, you know, his first year was not super successful. My second date with my husband was the NC State game in November, and they were ranked nationally. And, it was a bitter, typical November day at Penn State, and they knocked off NC State, and that was, like, sort of the beginning of, you know, Penn State's dominance. It brought them to the national scene, and it was, the games were huge. The difference, the biggest difference, of course, the stadium was much smaller. But, it was also, the pregame activities were centered at the fraternities. They were formal, cocktail parties, and we all, we went to the cocktail parties and to the game in heels and stockings. And, the guys wore coats and ties, and that was standard probably the first couple years. Started to relax a little bit towards the end, and there was a lot of drinking that went on during the game. Everybody came in with flasks, yeah.  ^M00:19:59 You know, beer in coat pockets and that was, so the games were a lot of fun and a major focus of the social life. And then, after the game, you'd go back to the house and have an after party. So. >> Yeah. >> Probably the drinking hasn't changed much, but just the way that, where it took place. >> Yeah. >> Really didn't tailgate. [inaudible]  >> So, I saw on, like, your little bio that you lived abroad in Germany and Japan for a few years. I was just wondering how that experience came about, and I don't know, if any of what you did had anything to do with what you did at Penn State. >> No, I was a trailing spouse, which is, means that my husband worked for a big, international company. >> Oh, okay. >> And, he was transferred over, and he was transferred. I think, from my perspective, it was a difficult decision because I had a career. >> Right. >> Three kids. The youngest one was two when we moved over there, and I had just, I had. When she was born, I did this thing, what I was speaking about before where I still managed people, but I was working from home two or three days a week. I had, was given a computer. At that time, it was a Compaq, and it looked like a big, huge, heavy sewing machine case that you had to carry around. I got that, brought it home, and I was working from home. And then, I went, actually, segued from that into being a contract worker because I wanted to have my own consulting business. So, I was building this consulting business, trying to create something for myself. And, my husband got this unbelievable opportunity. So, it was a very difficult decision for me to make. So, when we went for what they call a look see visit, had, was convinced that it was just too good to pass up. But, as trailing spouse, you lose, you know, your whole identity, and you're going there as a blank slate. And, a lot of people can deal with that. A lot of people find it depressing and can't cope with it. And, I was the former. So, I got very involved in some women's groups over there which was, that, you know, turned out to be almost like small businesses because there were so many women that were in similar situations, leaving careers behind and trying to reinvent themselves. So, coming with really high skill levels. And then, I think the big learning, and I do give Penn State credit for the, giving me the foundation and the confidence to do this, was just being able to reinvent myself continually from that point until now where, you know, you take an opportunity, you develop strengths. Use an opportunity that focuses on your strengths, but then allows you to gain new skills. And so, you become, have a broader set of skills and experiences that, then, lead you to something new. And, I did consulting for American companies over there in my career which was marketing research. Then, I ended up managing an international relocation company that helped expats adjust to life in Tokyo. And then, when we moved to Germany, I couldn't work there. So, it was more doing that same kind of thing, international relocation with my husband's company and with women's groups there. And, getting involved in school board type, board of trustees type issues in both places which led me to a lot of the experiences I had when I came back. So, evolution and reinvention, I think, are probably what best describes my time overseas and the return.  >> So, during your time at Penn State, you said that it was really, like, when you were here, really, the moment of change between, like, the 1950s and moving into the 1970s. What do you think was the biggest change that you saw here throughout your time? >> I have to be, the rules regarding, you know, living arrangements for women and the, just those changes were massive. >> Yeah. >> And, it went from a very protective, paternalistic society to one with, you know, where women were gaining equal footing. And, it laid the foundation for what came later, but it was, that was a massive change because it not only affected women. It affected the entire campus environment and culture. And, you know, and I think back on it and think, you know, I had to, I was at the top of my class in high school. I applied to the college of science, and because of that, and because I was a woman, I ended up having to start in the summer. And so, thinkable today that they, that there would be such a different, there's a different standard of admission for women than there were from men back then. So, you know, talk about massive cultural change and transformational change. It really was the, you know, the birth of the women's rights movement even though at the time the attention was all on anti-war and civil rights. I think it sort of was happening under the radar. We didn't realize that we were really fighting for women's rights. At least I didn't. We were just, you know, living and fighting to do, to be equal on a more individual basis.  >> So, do you have any suggestions for any current Penn State students that you, that you [inaudible] graduating or that you just remember from being a student?  >> Well, I've done a lot of mentoring at Penn State in the College of Liberal Arts, and so, I do. I have had probably seven or eight students that I've mentored, and I did the First Start Program also. And, I think it's a, my advice has always been enjoy your time here. Take every opportunity that presents, you know, itself, and make the most of it. And, that is a clichÈ, but it's absolutely true because there's just so much at Penn State. And then, the hardest part for students is to really take what they have experienced at Penn State and how they've grown and take that process of introspection and translate it into job skills. And, that's what I was doing. That was my, you know, my big life mission for a number of years was to help students do that. Because you don't really realize how much you're growing and how much you, what skills you gained from the activities that you are engaged in. And, if students would just take the time to really look back retrospectively and introspectively and understand how they've grown. And then, work with someone to help them translate that into job skills. And then, take advantage of all of the networking opportunities that, you know, the Penn State alumni world offers. Then, it's very, the transition to the real world is much easier and less intimidating than they realize. And, I think, in general, Penn State does a fabulous job of preparing students for the real world. It doesn't do such a great job of helping them figure out that that's happened and really helping them make the transition. But, the preparation is there, and the job skills are there. It's just a matter of packaging it in the right way.  >> Just out of curiosity, I also am a member of the College of Liberal Arts. What was the structure of the colleges in 1968, because I was just thinking. There's so many today, I feel, like the different, there's so many different majors now and different colleges. Was there, was that the same way back then with the colleges? Or was it? >> I think there were probably, well, there were fewer colleges. I don't remember, you know. >> Right. Yeah. >> The basic ones were, are there. I mean, some of them have really changed. I don't know what it is called now, but the one that's, like health and something or other. >> Oh, health and development. Yeah. >> Yeah. It had a name back then, and it was much more like home ec-y type. >> Okay, yeah. >> And, that's why I didn't like being in that, within that college. I think the biggest change, and massive change from when I was there, is the number of majors and minors and double majors that are possible. And, to me, that is also a big advantage when students are looking for jobs. ^M00:30:01 Because you really are able to customize your college experience and not only customize it, but document it in a way. You know, you can have double majors and minors and all kinds of things, and when an employer is looking at that, it very quickly captures the fact that you have a skillset. You know, that you've got an English major, but you've also got a business minor and a minor in advertising or a minor in Spanish. And so, it's all there. I didn't. I had a major. I didn't even have a minor. I was put on my resume, I always put that I had an emphasis in statistics and research methods. But, I didn't have a second degree or a minor that stated that. And, I think that is a big, big advantage at Penn State, and it's one that students need to be cognizant of and manage and help create their, sort of, personality that will come through in a job interview or a job resume.  >> Yeah. Kind of so much what you were saying. When I came to school, I thought I wanted to do speech pathology, and I quickly realized that I, that that's not what I wanted to do. And, I was kind of confused. And, I ended up, I'm a junior now, and I'll be graduating next year. I ended up having three majors and a minor just because I had so many different courses I was taking because I didn't know what I wanted to do. But, finally, I figured it out, but like you said, I, there's so many different options at Penn State. And, just the range of courses that I took, it ended up being so many different avenues. So, I definitely feel that. >> I think that's, I had all of my kids went to small, liberal arts schools, and they don't have that.  >> Yeah. >> You know, if they had, it's much different than, I think that's a big advantage to going to a large university. Plus, all the other opportunities that you have for, you know, connecting with professors and doing research and just the opportunities to do things. Just that most kids don't start worrying about it until they're older, and then it's too late to cram everything in.  >> Right. Yeah. So. >> And, the other big difference is grade inflation, too.  >> Oh. >> I think, yeah. It was, you know, if you, anything above a 3.0 back in the day was outstanding, and most, you know, was very common for the, probably the average GPA was in the mid twos, just to, you know, mid to high twos. So, now, it seems that it's much easier to get, I think it's been documented, to get a 3.0.  >> Yeah. >> Than it was back in the day.  >> So, did you, did you live on campus all four years, or were you able to move off? Or did you? >> No. I don't know. I was, I was in a sorority.  >> Oh, right, right. >> A sorority. They were always on campus, and I don't remember if when that rule changed the girls had to live on campus. >> Yeah. >> And, I'm not sure when that changed. I think it may have been after I left.  >> Oh, okay. So, do you think, did you spend a lot of time on campus, then, or did you go downtown at all, like [inaudible] college? >> I lived, in lived in Hibbs, so I was right across from McKlanahan [assumed spelling]. So, yeah. >> Yeah.  >> Downtown all the time. Yeah, the, you know, basically campus, downtown. The Lion's Den was the bar of choice, then, and fraternity. And then, when my now husband moved into an apartment, it was, you know, was pre Beaver Canyon, so the apartments were out of town more.  >> Okay. So, is there anything else that you wanted to mention or that you had on your mind about your time at Penn State, anything about your major, anything, or just the time in general, anything about? >> I don't think so. I think that it was a time of not only change but just underscoring that it was truly Happy Valley was the perfect description. And, it was a time of naivety and very, you know, fun place to go to college. Not out of control as much as, maybe, some of it is today. But, certainly not innocent. A lot of drinking. Some big drinking every weekend and parties, lots of great parties. I think that was, if I were to characterize my time at Penn State, that is the defining memory is the fun and the social life with, you know, academic rigor, of course. But, that's not so much a focus on the turbulence that was happening outside of Penn State. That was not a part of my experience.  >> And, you said, you mentioned kind of like Penn State as a bubble. Do you think it's still kind of that way? Like Penn State and State College is kind of secluded in the middle of Pennsylvania? >> Yeah, I do think that, and I think it's just a, it's a matter of geography. >> Yeah. >> And, I think it's a matter of the size of the school, too. If you go to a big school, like if you go to Columbia or Penn or NYU, you're plunked in the middle of a city. And, your social life is not as focused, you know, internally focused.  >> Right.  >> It's not a walled community. You're going out in bars and everything across the city. And so, I think that makes the Penn State experience unique, and I think part, that's part of the reason why Penn Staters are so connected to each other and to the university is because they've had that shared [inaudible] experience, and it creates a bond with the university and with classmates that is lifelong. >> All right. Well, again, thank you so much for doing this. I'm sorry, again, about the recording at the beginning. That was a little messy, but everything's good. Everything should be good. Yeah, and if there's anything else you would like to say, just go ahead.  >> Well, it was great fun reminiscing. I wish I had better recall. I always say my filing cabinet is, you know, packed to overload, and every time a new experience comes in, I have to toss something. So, some of those old memories are, have been, you know, discarded. But, it was fun to reminisce, so I appreciate it. Thank you for inviting me to do it. >> Oh, of course. Thank you again. Thank you for your patience, too, with the phone number in the beginning.  >> No problem. I'm used to that, believe me. I'm doing these conference calls all the time, so. >> Yeah.  ^M00:37:28 [ Inaudible Comment ] ^M00:37:32 Okay. And, I'll just, the writeup that I'll be doing for my class, I can send you in a few weeks through email. Does that work for you? >> Okay. That's great. I'll look forward to it. >> Okay, great, and if, like I said, if there's anything else that I need from you or that you need to do, I'll just let you know through email. >> That's fine. I'm happy, if you have follow up questions or clarifications, you know, feel free to contact me any time. >> Okay. Great. And, like I said, if you had any photos or anything that you wanted to include, you can just send them through email. If not. >> I wish I did. I don't have any because they're, it's a complicated story. But, they're all in storage. >> Okay. >> I don't have them, so. So, I probably won't. So. >> Okay. No. That's totally fine. Thank you, again.  >> Okay. All right, Kira. Thank you so much.  >> Of course.  >> All right. Bye. >> Bye. 

Interview by Jacob Iwinski

^B00:00:04 >> Hello, my name is Jacob Iwinski, and I am an undergraduate at Penn State with the course History 197, and I'm interviewing Skip Lange, who is an alumni of Penn State University, and was on-campus in 1968.  Skip, can you introduce yourself real quick? >> I am Skip Lange.  I actually was not on campus in 1968, but was there the preceding four years.  I returned to campus for several visits, and saw kind of the transformation that occurred with even greater impact that I saw in 1969 when I returned after I finished my service in the U.S. Army. >> Thank you.  First, some questions.  Why did you choose Penn State for your university education? >> It was in-state.  It had an excellent reputation.  I was guided by my counselor in high school that it would be a good choice, and I never regretted it. >> Again, what was your major at Penn State? >> I was in the College of Liberal Arts and majored in general arts and sciences with the intention of attending law school, which I did, for a year. >> Was there one particular course or professor that made a lasting impression on your studies? >> His name is -- and I've -- two of them.  John Barth [assumed spelling], who at that time was recognized as one of the best young authors in America.  I took a creative writing course with him.  And the other was a guy named -- I believe it was Richard or Chris Simpkins [assumed spelling], who taught a course on the evolution in the news of -- I don't remember the title of it, but it had a lot to do with the current news at that time.   >> What -- how did those professors and your education at Penn State, like, impact your life after college? >> John Barth was very talented as an author.  I had a broken leg at the time, so he and I ended up having lunch at the Hub fairly often.  It was purely circumstantial initially, and then it got to be kind of an event, because our class met after lunch.  And I had aspirations as a writer, and he pointed out that my scope was much more suited to non-fiction writing, but to writing in other media.  Chris Simpkins -- it was just a very interesting course, and he gave us insights into the reality of the world.  There was certainly a lot going on in 1967 when I took the class, and he was able to point out to us the things that were in the news, or that were not in the news that were -- was news.   >> What was it like, seeing, like, the different contrasting things that your professor was pointing out, in terms of what actually was news, so to speak, and what was actually -- should have been news? >> I think it was very interesting, because it was still Happy Valley.  And we were insulated because of our location.  We were insulated because the media at that time was kind of characterized by the three major TV stations, ABC, NBC, and CBS.  There were very few other choices.  Of course, our local newspaper, "The Daily Collegian," and whatever the town newspaper was, was far more local in its scope than national, let alone international.  I had a fair number of political science courses that touched about -- touched on things that were going on elsewhere in the world, but it still seemed so very, very far away.   >> In the modern day, we have instant access to a whole variety of communication, and even with this instant access, news online, and the abundance of written material, we still have people that don't find themselves connected to the modern -- to the political world.  Do you believe that people read newspapers back then, or watched the nightly news regularly, or more often than tonight?  Like, in the college environment, how well did people understand what was going on around them in that time? >> Not well at all.  I think that there was still kind of an implicit sense of trust at that time, so that we trusted the TV channels.  We trusted the newspapers, until Mr. Simpkins helped me see that trust, perhaps, needed to be proven, and simply not given.  But I cannot remember a lot of discussion about the news in 1967.  There were other things that were discussed, but they were far more localized to campus and the town, and certainly not the faraway world outside of the realm of Happy Valley. >> So would you say the atmosphere of Happy Valley itself was just, you know, far more localized in terms of everything, not just news?  People stayed within their boundaries, so to speak, in terms of what they would concern themselves with? >> Yeah, I think rather than boundaries -- the boundaries that were there were kind of self-imposed.  And so, there were not hard-and-fast boundaries.  They certainly were not parameters that had mathematical specificity.  You know, as you get closer to graduation, your boundaries tend to expand, and Happy Valley was a soft Happy Valley.  And I don't mean in terms of integrity, or courage, or anything else, but it had had very few hard boundaries.   And so I had friends who were very, very much involved in national news, but they were very much in the minority.  I had other friends who just kind of floated along with whatever was happening, and I'd say that I don't remember the university being a source of news.  And maybe that wasn't its role.  I think in 1967, the university was very happy with its role in -- relative to the student, it was en loco parentis, which means that the university was the parent of the student in state college in University Park.  So everybody was kind of happy with what was going along.  I can remember walking by the Hub, where Students for a Democratic Society would be picketing, and there'd be -- I don't know, 10, maybe 20.  I had the opportunity to visit the University of Pennsylvania where that number was close to 300.  So I don't know whether it had to do with proximity to what was going on, or availability of what was going on.  I think there was still a very deep-seated sense of trust for the institutions of our world, and so there didn't seem to be a need to probe. >> You mentioned that the university -- the phrase you used was en loco parentis. >> Yes. >> Did -- so the university saw itself as, like, the parent figure for the students, and some of the dorm regulations of that time that I have taken a look at really do reflect that.  Did students see themselves as under this, like -- the university being the parent?  Did they want to be a part of that, or was this something forced upon them? ^M00:09:46 >> I don't think it was forced.  It was simply the rules.  One of the things that I and several of my colleagues did is that we were trying to write -- rewrite the rules so that women could be in fraternities on Sunday afternoon.  I'm not sure I have all the facts straight, but on a Sunday afternoon, between 12:00 and -- yeah, between 1:00 and 5:00, or 2:00 and 5:00, or 12:00 and 5:00, that they could be in a fraternity without a chaperone.  The fraternities had house mothers in those days -- without a chaperone, although they couldn't -- they had to be in the first floor.  The curtains all had to be open.  And I remember taking it to the Dean of Women, who was just terrified that this would happen, that they would allow this to happen, and that -- she said, "You know, this'll be the end of Penn State."  The Dean of Men was a little more sanguine, and said, "Well, if you can get it passed, you can get it passed."  But I went back to Penn State two years -- in 1969.  I returned for Homecoming, and when I was present under my fraternity, we had a rule that women could not put their foot on the orange steps going upstairs.  And I went upstairs to go to the men's room, and there was a woman on the second floor, sitting on top of the cigarette machine, drunk.  But I almost had a heart attack, realizing that, under the old rules, this would've gotten us probation and everything else.  Under the new rules, there was -- you know, it was not frowned upon or against the rules.  So things changed very, very significantly in that time.  I never want to characterize change as right or wrong, because change typically reflects what's going on in our society and our culture.  And it was relatively harmless, what she was doing, but the sexual mores had changed.  It was the love generation.  So Penn State, in that case, was very much reflective of what was going on in our overall society.   >> In that time, do you remember Penn State being as diverse as it is today, or was it even more diverse, in terms of where the -- >> Far less diverse.   >> -- do you -- >> At that time, there were a lot of kids from Pennsylvania high schools, specifically, who were the first person in their family to have ever gone to college.  And it was very white, because that was reflective, I think, of our culture at that time in Pennsylvania.  It was very white, very middle-class, if not lower-middle-class.  It was a very nice place. >> -- the -- did the lack of diversity manifest itself in the staff, too?  Did going to college -- do you feel like it broadened your perspectives, in terms of being exposed to different cultures and ideas, despite Penn -- >> Yeah, absolutely.  And the interesting thing is, about the lack of diversity -- is that the guys specifically, who are not conversational -- there would be lots of B.S. sessions, at night especially, where a bunch of guys would get together and just have a discussion.  And I remember discussions -- which seem really ancient now -- about -- a lot of the guys wanted to marry virgins.  It was still -- that was still a perspective.  That was still the way the rules were written, and that's pretty much the way things were.   >> So with -- that's very interesting.  So first -- so these discussions, are they just, like -- were they, like, friend groups that would meet, or just, like, a random -- a bunch of random people would get together and start talking? >> Yeah, it was not the group or team environment that we see today.  So it'd be -- I remember very specifically hanging out in the fraternity house, because it was nothing but guys -- you know, 48 guys.  And the conversations just evolved, but the lack of understanding of the world at that time was the norm.   >> Going off of something you mentioned earlier with the Dean of Women saying that, like -- >> Yes. >> -- rules would be, like, the end of Penn State, what -- and then, also, you mentioned just now that men wanted to marry virgins.  So how did the perspective on women -- how do you -- how did you perceive it in 1967? >> I'm not sure how you'd define the word perspective, but I think it was -- >> The role of -- the role of women in society in 1967, at least on Penn State's campus. >> -- yeah, it was, I think, very traditional, because the women were just part of that same cohort of people who had never been to college before.  And in those days, a lot of them were training in home ec -- training -- studying in home ec, teachers, nurses, but it was unusual to find a woman in a poli sci class.  And so, they weren't second-class citizens -- they weren't second-class citizens at all, because there were three guys to every woman.  So they were -- they were very much in demand, in a lot of ways.  But they were just as ignorant as the men about boy/girl things, at that time. >> And I understand a lot of this is cultural, but -- so if there's -- but you said it's rare to find one in a poli sci class.  Do you feel like this is more of a -- like a self-segregation kind of thing, where they're choosing to go into these fields, or that's kind of what the university was pushing them towards? >> I think both.  I think there was -- the tradition was part of the culture, and it was reflective of the world outside of Penn State.  And so, there was demand for those kinds of people, and you had talked about boundaries before.  There, again, were soft boundaries that -- you know, people were allowed to do whatever they want, but it was just unusual to find women in general arts and sciences.  And general arts and sciences typically prepared people for law, medicine, specifically so that they had a lot of flexibility in the coursework that they had.  But I don't think there was prohibitions in the rules.  I think the prohibitions came from the culture, both inside -- I mean, the university was very reflective of the employment environment.  I think if we had been at NYU, it would've been far different, but this was Pennsylvania.  A lot of kids from small towns, first time in college, and it was -- you know, the glass ceiling was certainly there, but I never heard the term.  And I never, as I think about it, know how it would've been broken back then.  I don't think Penn State would've broken it, but I think women coming to Penn State certainly did. >> Thank you.  Transitioning a little bit -- you were a member of Alpha Sigma Pi.  You had -- >> Phi. >> Phi? >> Yes. >> Sorry. >> That's all right. >> You were the president of this, correct? >> Yes.  >> What -- so can you elaborate a little bit?  What was fraternity life like, both in Alpha Sigma Phi and just on campus in general? >> There were 56 fraternities back then.  It was, for many, the hub of any social life.  There were 36 sororities so that the Greek system really was very, very strong at that time.  I think it was ideal, because we had all of these diverse -- white diversity kids coming who needed a place to learn life lessons.  And the fraternities did a very good job of that.  They also started, or continued, some of the bad practices that Penn State is suffering from now. ^M00:19:46 It's never been stopped.  When I was the president of Alpha Sig, I prohibited the use of wooden paddles.  As soon as I was out of office, it was reinstated.  There are just a lot of things that went on.  We had some Korean war vets still in the college who had a particularly mean streak, but on balance, I would say that the fraternity system at that time, and what it offered to the university and its members, was just outstanding.  And there was a real strength -- in a lot of ways, was not only the backbone of social life.  It was the backbone of shared life.   >> What percent -- not -- I don't know -- need exact percentages, but were the majority of students at Penn State involved with Greek life in one form or another? >> No.  One of the problems was that -- is that there was no alternative housing.  So now, there are lots of apartments and places to live that are not Greek, or not university-owned.  Back in the '60s, that was lacking, so there was a real necessity for some people to live in fraternities.  I'm sorry, I think I lost your question.  I apologize. >> No, no, no, keep -- keep going on that.  That's actually very interesting. >> It just -- it was just very strongly self-sustaining.  There was something called the Inter-fraternity Council that self -- not self, that managed the Greek system.  It was very, very strong.  I was an elected member.  All fraternities had representation.  I was an officer.  We took it very, very seriously.  That being said, there were always violations.  There was nothing smarter than an 18-year-old boy, and there's nothing more stupid than an 18-year-old boy.  And making that transition can happen instantaneously.  And you had kids who may have never had a drink before, may have kids who -- have kids who never kissed a girl before.  There was just a lot of learning, and like in any population, be it a town or a city, or a college, there was a certain number of people who are just not well-adjusted, and don't know how to behave properly.  By and large, the fraternity systems helped people learn how to behave properly.  You can look at the strength of my fraternity -- I'm -- until several years ago, was still involved as the president of the alumni association.  Some of my best friends are from my fraternity, or some of my best friends now are from other fraternities who I met at Penn State.  So it has a real legacy.  It's not for everybody, and some people have to learn that lesson the hard way.  But it was a very real strength in university back then. >> When were you elected president of your fraternity? >> 1966, I believe. >> So you were in your fraternity for a few years before you became the president. >> That's correct. >> Was there a distinct change, in terms of how you perceived the fraternity system, between being a member and actually being the president, or interacting directly? >> No.  Things really changed in '68 and '69.  Penn State caught up with the young person's world in those years.  So my perception of -- as a member, and being president, I don't think was different.  Quite frankly, it helped me learn about leadership.  You know, I was 5'11'', weighted 150 pounds, so I couldn't punch somebody to get them to do what I want.  We had a fine system, but there were checks and balances with it.  So I had to learn how to get my peers to do what was best, often when they didn't want to.  That's always tough.   >> Yes.  Transitioning a little bit more -- so you had mentioned prior that you were the social chairman of the Inter-fraternity and Pan-Hellenic councils. >> Yes. >> So one of the things you mentioned in your bio previously was that you got to work with some of the big names in music that came to Penn State at the time as a result of this position.  What was that experience like, and then how was interacting with the university? >> It was a wonderful experience.  The first group we brought in -- we actually -- a colleague of mine, a friend who lives here in Florida near me, we were running the concerts.  So the first group we brought in were The Supremes, and they were as hot as the sun at that time.  And I realized as I was thinking about our discussion that they were the same age that I was.  You know, they were in their early 20s just like I was.  And when they came to Penn State, they didn't quite really know how to behave.  And we had a locker room all set up with them, and beds, and they wanted to go bowling.  So my colleague took them bowling.  Well, there were 1000 people lined up to get into the concert.  He walked right by them with The Supremes to go bowling.  The second was Bill Cosby.  Now, he was in his late 20s.  It was before he had his troubles.  But I got to spend three hours with him in Joe Paterno's office between concerts, just talking, and we had some food from The Lion Inn.  And again, it was he and I, and we talked about -- I'll never forget this.  We talked about playing kickball in fifth grade, and, you know, you kick the ball as hard as you can, and it goes two feet.  But you can get a home run out of it, because people throw the ball around.  That showed up in his second concert.  He sat on a stool and did two completely different concerts.  The third were The Temptations, and I would -- I had graduated by then, but I was on a pass from the Army, and I went up for their concert.  And we had a local group called The Magnificent Men from York, who were warming up and singing.  And all of a sudden, these five tall, cool-looking black guys in matching suits, and hats, and shirts came in and started jamming with them.  And it was far better than any concert you'll ever see.  So it was an incredible experience.  Now, the only thing I regret is, we had a chance to book The Rolling Stones and didn't.  But it was just -- you know, here I am, 21 years old, being exposed to some of the -- at that time, and some -- recognized still as some of the great talents.  And to have that responsibility was unbelievable.  The first concert we did with The Supremes, we sold 14,000 tickets in 45 minutes.  And we went to the Dean of Men and said, "Well, we'd like to do a second concert on Sunday."  He said, "No, no.  The rules are you can't do concerts on Sunday."  And we said, "Well, actually, we sold that concert out."  And he said, "Okay, no problem.  We'll make do."  So the university -- I don't want to say was supportive, but they certainly were not a roadblock, and there was very little interference from them. >> Was -- when you were bringing these people in with the council, was this all basically you guys, and the university was just kind of there to make sure nothing went wrong? >> Yes.  Yeah, they had no role at all, really.  We used -- the venue we used was Rec Hall.   >> Something else -- so you also had mentioned in your bio that you were a parliamentarian for undergraduate student government. >> Yes. >> So whereas with the Inter-fraternity Council, it was you guys doing your own thing with the university's body, you know, being there, kind of as the -- you know, the parental figure, I guess, but interacting very little.  Being a member of undergraduate student government, you are interacting very directly with the university.  What was your experience like there? >> I think it was a time when the en loco parentis tended to affect the relationship between the university and student government, but it was changing. ^M00:29:52 And so, as parliamentarian, my job was really to simply make recommendations on procedural issues.  That being said, I had the opportunity, certainly, to participate and be part of what was going on.  So that was the beginning of an evolution where the student government was becoming -- I don't want to say powerful.  That was certainly not the word, but more recognized and recognizable as an independent entity.  And at first, the university was somewhat reluctant to enter in that kind of a relationship.  But as things evolved, the university learned that it was better to have a partner than somebody who was working against -- two parties working against each other. >> Did people participate or get involved significantly in local student government elections?  Or, actually -- no, that's two questions, but -- so first, did students get involved in student government?  Like, was it significant? >> No.   >> Not in any capacity? >> Not at that point, no.  Quite frankly, the reason that I was selected as parliamentarian is that I organized the fraternities to vote for a particular candidate who was a fraternity man.  So my early lesson in politics was, if you give, you get.   >> Did -- transitioning out of student council, the actual local, like, township, like the Town of Penn State has a local government.  Did students in any way get involved with the town, and the town's government, beyond just, you know, interacting with the town economically? >> No, not to my recollection at all.  In fact, I think that there was a real energy from the town to not have student involvement.   >> Did the town see itself as its own unique entity, and the students were just kind of there? >> Yes.   >> If you had to describe the culture of the town of State College, how would you describe it? >> Then? >> Yes. >> You know, I think that the students were certainly a necessary evil, but the town understood that, without them, there would be hardly any town.  I remember having a friend who owned a men's store when I returned several years after graduation, telling me that, in his experience, the time that I was there -- and it had nothing to do with me.  But that era, the late '60s, was the best time ever for him in State College.   ^M00:33:13 ^M00:33:24 >> You had mentioned earlier that there were a few -- like democratic -- were they protesters outside of the Hub, or were they just -- like, were they war protesters, or were they just kind of, like, there to get support for their party? >> No, this was Students for the Democratic Society.  So they were not traditional political parties.  SDS was a strong movement throughout the country.  They were protesting -- I don't remember what they were protesting.  It -- I'm sure it was something important, and being Happy Valley, it was pretty much ignored. >> So, yeah, with it being the '60s, you know, the Vietnam War was on a lot of people's minds at that time.  Was there any significant student -- what was the student body's view on Vietnam?  Was it disgust?  Were there protests? >> I don't remember ever discussing it, and I discussed a lot of things.  I was kind of in a lot of different -- what you would call friend groups now.  I think especially in 1967 -- it's one of those situations where everybody trusted the government, and so everybody trusted that the right things were being done the right way for the right reason.  Historically, now, we have learned that nothing could be further from the truth, but nobody was asking those questions.  So groups like SDS were asking those questions, and they weren't getting any answers, nor would they.  So the Vietnam war -- I was going to -- I knew I was going to be drafted because of the number I had, but it was -- it was, like, way far away, and nobody knew what was going on.  And I actually had read about it, but it just -- it was not part of the real reality at Penn State.  Now, I'm sure there are people who took a much more serious view towards it.   I think in retro -- I don't know, in retrospect, if I had or I hadn't, it would've made anything different.  I was still drafted, and ended up in the army.  So I didn't want to go, but was ready to serve. >> When you were drafted, what was the draft process like? >> Very, very simple.  You got a letter, said report somewhere at 7:00 in the morning.  I went to a facility in Philadelphia, where I had my physical, and that night, I was on a train to Fort Bragg, North Carolina.  So it was -- >> That's efficient. >> -- pretty efficient. >> Yeah.  We had mentioned in an earlier conversation -- and we can kind of tie this into what we had talked about earlier.  But the news at the time, in terms of what people understood -- when you -- you had mentioned earlier something about how news -- at least, like, even in the military, people didn't understand what was gong on, necessarily, all the time.  And even at that, sometimes it was sanitized.  Can you elaborate on that? >> Well, I ended up in the head -- in the headquarters of the army in Europe, where that kind of news really had a tremendous impact on what we did.  But I'm trying to remember -- there's a -- an army newspaper.  I don't remember what its name was, but there was not a lot of stories about Vietnam.  When you watched television, as stories became more and more top-of-the-hour news, it still was like television.  You saw people firing automatic weapons, you know, in the jungle, and it was infrequently that you saw the enemy.  And I -- because I worked with a lot of the very senior officers, they would never discuss the war publicly, but because I was around them, I would hear them discuss it privately.  And many times, they were not supportive of what was going on.  They would never say that, because it was the army, and you don't do that.  But it was just -- again, there was a lack of availability of news.  I was living in Germany, and so I could read some German, but there was always news in German newspapers.  But it just -- it just seemed surreal.  And I lived in the barracks for a while, and I think I told you this.  Five out of seven nights -- we would live in big rooms.  Five out of seven nights, we'd be awakened by somebody screaming, or reacting to their service in Vietnam.  So it was kind of a paradox.  You know, it was always there, but it was never top of the news for us.    At one time, we were in a German -- what they call a like a cerne [phonetic], which was just a group of buildings.  Local German students kind of blocked all the entrances and exits so we couldn't get out.  And, you know, there was food in there.  We made do.  We knew it was coming.  But even then, the discussion was not so much about their actions and the war as just, you know, this is a pain in the ass.   ^M00:39:51 ^M00:39:59 >> Interacting with -- how -- what was it like interacting with the locals in Germany from the perspective of an armed serviceman in the United States? >> There was not a lot of crossover that -- I'd lived in a German house for a while, rented an apartment, and talked to the landlord's son and daughter, who spoke English and, you know, were interested in things.  But the woman's husband had been a Nazi in World War II, and he never spoke to me.  And often, I'd come home, and he'd be in his living room.  And I'd be going up the stairs, and I'd say, you know, [foreign language] or whatever, and say his name, and he just totally ignored me.  So I don't think there was a lot of love between the Americans and the Germans.  It was more of a business relationship, that we have to be there, and the Germans were happy that we were there, because then they didn't have to pay for it.  And they didn't have to have the soldiers, but it -- the Americans stuck with the Americans, and the Germans stuck with the Germans.  Now, there were obviously examples of crossovers, and that was especially in the male/female area, but it was pretty much a business relationship.   >> You mentioned that every few nights, you would have someone, you know, awaken you from their experience.  So this is, like, PTSD, right? >> Yes.   >> Was that understood in the -- in your time, or was it more just, deal with it on your -- your own ways, your own style, there's not going to be any kind of support for you? >> I don't think we knew it was PTSD, but, you know, these are guys we're living with.  We're talking to them all the time.  I had a very good friend who was a tail gunner on a chopper.  He never talked about Vietnam, ever.  And if we started -- I'd start to ask him a question, he would just shut down.  So we knew these people.  We knew that they had a terrible time.  There were some guys who couldn't wait to tell us their story, and others who just never mentioned it.  So I don't think the term PTSD existed for us, but we were sensitive to their pain, and, you know, there was never any anger.  Or there'd be, you know, a flash of anger because you're waking up at 3:00 in the morning with screaming.  Lights would go on.  Everybody would settle down and go back to sleep. >> So the concept of, like, formalized counseling was basically out of the question.  If anything, you were each other's counselors. >> Yes, to my understanding.  Now, there may have been those who sought formal counsel unknown to the rest of us, but, yeah, I don't ever remember somebody saying, "Well, let's get a group of us together and talk about this."  No, that never happened, at least in my world. >> When you returned home after the -- your involvement with the army, what did you perceive your home life to be, a -- like, your home town, or wherever you were?  What was their perspective on the war?  Were you treated any differently because you had been involved?  >> Not to my knowledge.  I mean, I reconnected with college and high school friends.  I don't believe I was treated any differently.  It's hard to tell, because I only know how I was treated.  It wasn't like places where you would come home and go through an airport and be spat upon.  I never had that kind of an experience. >> Understood.  We're going to get close to wrapping up here in a little bit.  Overall, what would you say -- if you were going to describe the culture of the mid-to-late '60s, what would you say the culture, the atmosphere was at that time? >> Tumultuous.  It was hard, because I certainly had a loyalty to the army and the United States, but knew from my friends who had been there that Vietnam was wrong.  Certainly, we have learned in historic perspective, it was terribly wrong.  I've had a chance to do some reading on the treatment of others, and just how horrible it was by the Vietnamese.  But the culture within the country -- there were a lot of people who yelled and screamed without any knowledge of what was going on, and painted things with a very, very broad brush.  And there were others who were very sensitive to what was going on, and thoughtful, and, you know, it was at a time when we just, as people, as young people, especially, had no real power.  And, you know, when you get a million people in Washington, D.C., and speeches and everything else -- you know, now we learned that President Johnson very much felt that pressure, but at the time, we had no understanding of that.  And, you know, now you read that Robert McNamara knew the war was wrong almost from its outset.  We had no sense of that.  And so, the lines of communication were just nonexistent, and like now, those bonds of trust that we have for our institutions -- now it's the FBI that has really been diminished in terms of our trust.  It was the same thing then.  That feeling of trust in our institutions was almost nonexistent, and people were lost.  People were angry.  People tended to go to things -- I went to the first Earth Day in Philadelphia, and, you know, it was a great theory.  But there were just a lot of people wandering around, and I think that kind of characterizes that era.  There were a lot of people wandering around, not sure where they were going, not sure what they believed in, not sure what they wanted, but they were pissed off.  And they wanted more.   So it was a -- it wasn't scary.  It was just really disappointing.  And then, as the love generation started to get roots, and things like Woodstock happened, people began to understand that there was a latent power available, but still were not clear about what to do with it.   >> Thank you.  The last section I'd like to go through is, I'm going to list several -- one at a time, major events that happened, at least in 1968, and I would like to give -- if you have any insights to share, or what your experience was living through that event, or how you found out.  I'd like you to share that now.  The first one is North Korea capturing the USS Pueblo. >> You know, it's certainly interesting.  I was thinking about history.  I have a friend who was in army intelligence, and in the FBI for 25 years.  And, you know, we read about Lloyd Bucher, and what transpired with the capture of the Pueblo.  What we didn't know, and many people still don't know, is that they captured a tremendous amount of confidential, really top-secret material.  And that -- you know, you kind of say, "Okay, that's bad."  Well, what I learned is, is that my friend spent two days -- 48 straight hours shredding material, because the shredding capacity that they had on the Pueblo was not sufficient.  Now, he wasn't on the Pueblo, but he was in other areas, and he never has told me where he was.  And so, that event did tremendous damage to the United States, and we'll never know how much, because everything was secret.  So when -- the interesting part, too, to me, is history is typically an event, and the important part of history is how we respond to it, and what we do about it.  And so, when that event became personalized for me, and I learned what I learned, it had a greater effect on me much after the event itself. ^M00:49:54 So it's -- and it's really not even my history.  It was his history, but he was my friend.  And he gave me some insights that were very interesting. >> Thank you. >> You're welcome. >> The next one is the Tet Offensive.   >> That's another similar thing.  I never realized that the Tet Offensive occurred in 36 different cities.  When I recall the news -- and again, I was in the army, and we certainly heard about it.  But again, it became personal for me when one of my fraternity brothers and I met after our service, and he told me that he spent two days calling in mortar fire on his own position, so that they were just mortaring the North Vietnamese.  And I -- and his life was in danger.  Now, obviously, he was safe.  The other thing about that is, is that it really showed us the moxie that the North Vietnamese had, and there are people who tell me -- I don't know -- that that was the beginning of the turning point of the war, and that's when they started to win.   >> The next event is the assassination of Martin Luther King, Jr. >> It's still hard to accept.  It was such an affront.  It was so un-American.  It did so much to race relations in the United States, it's amazing that we've recovered to the degree that we have.  And it just shows the deep-seated hate that existed in the country then, and, you know, it gets frightening to understand that, in that era, it became a solution.  And I'm hoping in this era, it doesn't.   >> Do you remember how it was announced?  Do you remember hearing about it? >> No, I don't.   >> Do you remember the assassination of Robert F. Kennedy? >> Yes.  Again, kind of the end of a dream, and even if you know -- even if young Americans didn't vote for him, didn't believe in his political ideology, didn't believe in the Kennedy mystique, it was the end of an era for us. >> When you say end of an era, can you elaborate more on that? >> Well, it was Camelot, when his brother, John, was elected president, that -- there was so much hope.  You know, here comes the new broom to sweep clean, and, of course, that was stolen when John was assassinated in the early part of the decade.  But there was still hope for Bobby, and then, of course, it ended.  And, you know, it's hard to understand why a guy named Sirhan Sirhan would shoot Bobby Kennedy.  You know, now we can call it Muslim extremism or whatever, but it's just hard to understand why, and who this guy was.   >> Thank you.  The next event is the athletes taking a stand at the October Olympics in Mexico. >> Right. >> Do you -- >> Tommie Smith and John Carlos raising their fists.  I don't know how I feel about that, even today.  In a society that places such a value on winning, they had the right to do it.  I think it made an impact.  I think it probably solidified the boundaries between black and whites, but it kept the spotlight on race relations.  Or maybe it's not race relations is the word.  Maybe it's the lack of race relations.  But it shone the spotlight on the issue. >> Thank you.  And the final event is when Apollo 8 was the first manned spacecraft to orbit the moon. >> It was a rejuvenation of some sort, that -- remember, Kennedy said we're going to have a man on the moon.  You know, maybe it was kind of an unhappy recollection, but it showed that we still had the ability to do what we set our mind to.  And I think it kind of got us out of the negative trough that we had been in the 19 -- in 1968, especially.  That -- you know, a lot of things happened, and it's so hard -- the things happened so fast sometimes, it's hard to put them all in perspective, and to say, "Gee, that was great," or, "That was horrible."  And you just sometimes get so down about the negative things that you just kind of shake your head and say, "Well, so here was a positive thing, that the guys orbited the moon."  It was, for many of us, outside the realm of our understanding how something that technical could get done, and it, I think, created an enthusiasm for America again. >> Did you watch the live broadcast of the lunar surface? >> Yes. >> When -- were you -- do you remember the atmosphere around that?  Was there conversation regarding it?  What was the conversation like? >> I was on leave in Greece, and the night before this happened, staying in a very expensive hotel where it was 50 cents to sleep on the roof of a hotel in your sleeping bag.  And that's what we did.  The night before -- or, the day before, I was sitting on the wall -- on a wall in the main street of Heraklion, Crete, and one of my fraternity brothers walked by.  Now, that's a highly unusual place to see someone, and we chatted.  That night, we went to a Greek restaurant where we were doing the circle dance, and throwing our glasses against the stone wall, and everybody was pointing up at the moon.  The next day -- that night, actually, we got on a ferry boat back to Athens, went back to that same luxurious hotel.  And the next day, the woman who was the owner of the hotel, but typical Greek woman, I'm sure in her 70s or 80s, wearing all black, came and unlocked the television.  And we were watching it.  It was being broadcast in Greek, but we could hear the underlying English.  All of a sudden, she stood up, turned off the TV, and locked up the TV.  And, you know, there are 20 of us sitting in the room watching this, and it's over.  And so, finally found her son, and said, "Why did she do that?"  He spoke English.  She didn't.  Said, "She just thought that was Hollywood bullshit."  And so, it was a very interesting reflection on me, on America, and just about how people felt about us and the world.   >> Did the son believe that? >> He wasn't there, and I didn't ask him.  There were a lot of Americans who believed that. >> At what point -- was there a point when Americans, like, actually started doing, like -- I'm sure the majority of Americans accepted that, but was this, like, a widely-held notion at the time? >> Being in Greece, I don't know.  I mean, I heard when I came back that there were Americans who believed it.  Europe in 1969 -- '68 and '69 was full of Americans, just being hippies.  So, you know, whenever you were somewhere, you bravely talked to the Americans.  And, you know, you hear what they had to say.  You know, was it real?  Was it realistic?  You never knew. >> Thank you so much for your time.  I have one final question for you before we wrap up, and that is, what is one suggestion that you would offer to current students at Penn State? ^M01:00:05 >> I read something recently that said four keys to success are this, and it only affects a certain part of our population.  But number one, if you're smart, number two, work hard.  Number three, ask a lot of questions, and number four, be just a little bit contrarian.  But don't expect Penn State as -- take Penn State as a gift.  It's an opportunity.  There are tremendous, tremendous, tremendous opportunities in the real world.  A lot of companies say that they want to hire Penn State graduates because they're well-socialized.  They know how to deal with people.  So enjoy your four years, but work hard.  Too many one -- too many answers to one question. >> That's perfectly.  Thank you so much, Skip.  This was a wonderful experience.

Interview by Zack Kalp

>> Oh. Hello? Can you hear me?

>> Yeah, I got you OK. >> OK. I think you were cut off just on that last second. What was the last thing you said there? >> Yeah, I was just saying that I'm not sure of the format that you want to use, but I assume you have some questions that you want to ask. >> I do, yeah. So the reason that you had to call in is because I'm using this piece of software that lets me record this conversation as like an interview, as like an official interview, that I can look back on and take notes on. >> OK. >> If that's acceptable. >> That's fine. >> OK. Excellent. So I've been provided by my professors with like a series of like required questions, which I'll probably just, you know, get to in time, but I thought maybe I could just start there if that's all right. >> That's fine. >> OK. So first off, we've got some basic information. So what years did you attend Penn State? >> OK. Well, my name is Charles Lutz. I graduated in 1967. >> OK. 1967. And so why did you choose Penn State to go to college? Was there any particular reason? >> Well, I'm a Philadelphian boy and I grew up in the city, and I had been accepted at Penn State and Temple, which I have to say were the only two universities I applied to. >> Yeah. >> And my father wanted me to get out of the city, so he encouraged me to go to Penn State. But ironically we really didn't have the money for the room and board. >> Yeah. >> So my father said if I would take my first two years at the Ogontz campus, which is now Abington I guess. >> Oh, OK. >> That he would buy me a car, so it was a deal I could not refuse. >> That's a pretty good deal, yeah. >> Yeah. And he paid $100 for a '54 ford and I used that to commute for two years from home. >> Oh, wow! You said a '54? >> Yeah. He paid $100 for it. It was 10 years old. >> Oh, OK. That sounds like a pretty good deal. ^M00:02:38 [ Laughter ] ^M00:02:40 >> It was a few years ago. >> Yeah. Yeah. OK. So I've got some more questions here. So what did you end up majoring in here at Penn State? >> I graduated as a political science major. >> OK. Yeah. >> However, I should say that my goal ever since I was a child had been to get into law enforcement, and believe it or not, Penn State did not have a criminal justice program in those days. >> Oh. >> So I figured that something related to government would be, you know, the closest I could come, so that's what I majored in. >> OK. Excellent. That's actually my major as well political science. >> Yeah. I noted that, yes. >> Yeah. Penn State doesn't have like a pre-law program - like an official pre-law major - which I guess some other universities did, so I kind of like, you know, found the next closest thing as well there. >> So was that your interest? In getting into law? >> Yeah. It's one of those things, you know, just trying to like - you obviously did this very well, but to have a political science major and then also be able to get a good job afterwards, which I think you have a very distinguished career. You're definitely proof of that, so I'm happy to be talking to somebody who's gone through that. >> Well thank you for that.  >> Yeah, of course. So in terms of your studies, were there any courses or particular professors that made a lasting impression on you that you still think about? >> In all honesty, no. >> Yeah. >> I have worked, however, for the past - I don't know - 25 years with the criminal justice program at Penn State. >> OK. >> And I have become friends with John Kramer, who's a retired professor [inaudible] in criminal justice, so he's kind of my hero as it relates to Penn State. >> Oh, OK. So you're still involved with the program you said, so do you... >> Yes. Well, it's actually now what they - it used to be crime, law, and justice alumni advisory board and now it's transitioned I guess four or five years ago into a sociology and criminology visitors board, so I'm still >> Oh, OK. Gotcha. So my questions that I've been given take a bit of a turn here to culture. >> OK. >> What kind of music did you like when you were in college here? >> Well, I guess got into kind of soul music. >> Yeah. >> Temptations and Miracles. >> Oh. >> And that sort of thing back in that day. >> Yeah, I know. The Temptations are excellent. >> Yeah. >> I think they performed here not too long ago at the Bryce Jordan Center. >> Really? >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think they have two original members and then the rest it's a whole new gang now, and I heard they were really good.  >> Well, I also have to mention for the record that my two best friends in those years actually went to Temple University. >> Yeah. >> And we used to go and see James Brown live every year. He would play in a place in New Jersey and we would go see him. >> Wow! Some of the videos I've seen of James Brown he must have been great to watch in person. >> He was a remarkable performer, yes. >> Yeah. OK. In terms of - so obviously you traveled to see James Brown. Did you have any other sort of like notable connections to the - like where did you get your news? Did you use newspapers? Of if you were to get news, where would you obtain that? >> I would say most of my news would come through newspaper. Obviously we didn't have any social media or internet back in those days, so that was it. >> Right. Right. Right. >> And, of course, the Daily Collegian. >> Of course, yeah. Actually, so part of the course is that we've had to look at past Collegian articles from that time and it's pretty impressive how in-depth and just the scope of the paper at that time, so I'm just kind of impressed by that. So in terms of news happening at the time - let's see, what does this say? OK. Here's how the question is worded. I'll just read it to you. >> OK. >> There was so much occurring in the late 1960s such as the first moon photos from space or student protests or the presidential election of '68.  What were your interests at the time for you?  >> Well, I guess I had my first kind of political awakening. >> Yeah. >> In those days. And I have to say I was a fan of Barry Goldwater. And, you know, I was too young to vote obviously in that election. >> Right. >> But that was the first time I really got interested in any type of political campaign. >> OK. And so that was at Penn State then? >> Yes. >> OK. >> But let me just say and I know you'll probably get to this, but, you know, the big events of that day was of course the Vietnam War. >> Right. >> The assassination of Martin Luther King. I mean these were obviously very prominent events in that era. >> Of course. >> Actually the Vietnam War was going on through my years at Penn State. But I was in the Army ROTC program at the time, so I obviously wasn't involved in the protests. But I can remember having to walk to class up in the main campus in my ROTC uniform past the protesters. But, you know, I mean it really at that time was not a big deal to me. >> OK. >> I know just from reading that there were, you know, tensions between service members in the United States and people who protested the war. ^M00:10:10 So on Penn State you didn't feel that sort of tension? >> I didn't take it personally. >> Right. >> And, you know, at the time I just tried to ignore it because I didn't see how it would benefit me to be confrontational anyway, so I just tried to ignore it. >> Right. >> You know, I have a different viewpoint today in retrospect about that whole era in terms of the protests and so forth. I don't know if you want to hear that or not. >> Yeah, I would be. I'd be very interested in your view on that now. >> Well, I mean I know that there were probably no doubt many people among the protesters who were sincerely interested in peace. >> Yeah. >> And, you know, were anti-war in general. However, in more recent years I couldn't help but notice that despite our invasion of Iraq, Obama's invasion of Libya, our invasion of Syria, you don't see any protests on campus. >> Yeah. >> And I try to, you know, reconcile that in my mind as to what has changed. >> Yeah. >> And there's really only one thing that changed between that war and these wars and that is that today there's no draft. >> Right. >> So I mean - and this may sound - I'm not bitter at all believe me. But it just seems to me that a lot of the protests were not anything to do with peace and love. It was I don't want to go. >> Right. >> I don't want my boyfriend to go. I don't want my son or daughter to go. >> Right. >> Today there's no drafts, it's all volunteer military, so nobody is personally threatened. Thus, there's no protests. >> Right. >> So I think a lot of it was disingenuous. I think they used this peace and love nonsense for their own benefit and they weren't really sincere about that. They just didn't want to go. >> Right, so it's more selfish motivations than... >> I think so. I mean, you know, I'm sure there would be people that would argue with me on that, but that's my view. >> Yeah. I think that does hold up. I mean when you do look at the differences no draft. And then there's also some differences in how the government handles the media exposure as well I think. >> Well, that's a good point. >> But no, I absolutely see your point, because if you're being ordered to go somewhere, you know, you're naturally going to be a little more quizzical and inquisitive about it. Yeah, that is interesting; comparing military involvement today and then because you're right. The war in Iraq, you know, people talked about it all the time during the presidential elections, but, you know, you don't see students. A lot of students don't even understand why we're there in the first place, so... >> Yeah. Well and even today people are struggling with, you know, the Vietnam War. And I think again, my view is the reason we have trouble coming to terms with it is because we didn't win it. >> Right. >> I mean I'm not of the belief that we lost it because we pulled out. >> Right. >> It was the only war we hadn't won and I think that had an impact on many of the people who fought there. >> So was there a sense that it was almost a given that the United State would win at the beginning just because of how powerful we were in the world. >> Yes, I think. To me I had every confidence that, you know, we couldn't lose I mean because we never had. >> Right. >> And again, we didn't. We pulled out. >> Right. Right. >> Let's see, where are we here? Let me just make sure. I think we've covered most of the required questions here. Just kind of off that thread, do you think that students coming out of PSU today or maybe, you know, a few years ago are much different from students who graduated from this university in 1968 and in that era? Do you think there's a big difference there?  >> Well, I guess there's really only two bodies of students that I've come in contact with in recent years and that is as I mentioned the criminal justice students. >> Yeah. >> And I'm also kind of a charter member of Army ROTC Alumni Interest Group. Although I haven't been active in that in the last couple of years. But I did for many years. And I have to say that the students that I have met in the criminal justice program I think are, you know, good decent people looking to do good in the world. And as far as the Army ROTC kids, every time I get concerned about the future, you know, I look at these guys and girls in the Army ROTC and I say, "Hey, it ain't so bad." ^M00:16:52 [ Laughter ] ^M00:16:54 Because there's some really wonderful people in both of those studies.  >> That's nice to hear. Is there anything that you experienced at Penn State that you wish students that are here now those students that you were talking about that you wished that they also experienced? Something that's changed. Anything that comes to mind? >> No. You know, it was kind of difficult for me having gone to an annex campus for two years. >> Yeah. >> Because when I arrived at Penn State I was a junior. I went to the main campus. I was a junior. An obviously, you know, as a junior I wasn't going to rush a fraternity for a year and I think I missed out on a lot of campus life. So I think that the annex campuses are wonderful in that they give many more students who couldn't otherwise afford four years at the main campus it gives them an opportunity. And, of course, I was very fortunate to have that available to me. But I do think if you do have the opportunity to spend four years at the main campus, you can really get involved in campus life. And I think looking back I kind of regret that I didn't take advantage of more extracurricular activities. I kind of just focused on my studies, which isn't a bad thing. >> Right. >> I'm not the brightest guy in the world, so, you know, I had to study. But I'd kind of focus on that. But at the same time, I did have free time I could have made better use of, so I think students should try and do that. Take advantage of everything you possibly can when you're in college. You don't get a second shot. >> Right. Right. >> Look, can I go back to Vietnam for a minute? >> Yeah, absolutely! Yeah. >> Because I think I mentioned in my little write up there that, you know, that was kind of the most important thing in my college career. >> Right. >> And, you know, being in the Army ROTC program the reason is that, you know, when you're preparing to go to war, it kind of grabs your attention. >> Right. >> And so I kind of, you know, focused on that. And a lot of people, of course, had bad experiences in Vietnam. I was very fortunate. I came back in one piece. >> Yeah. >> And I thought it was a very positive, in fact, a very life-changing experience for me. ^M00:20:00 In fact, I kind of joke these days. People ask, "Where'd you grow up?" I say, "Vietnam." And there's a lot of truth to that because, you know, when I was in college I was only responsible for myself and I didn't do a very good job of that and here I end up in Vietnam and I have guys saying, "Lieutenant, what do I do now?" And believe me you grow real fast. >> Yeah. >> And that kind of shaped my career in law enforcement as well, because for the majority of the time I was in Vietnam I was an advisor to a Vietnamese infantry division intelligence unit, and I loved the work. I liked working with the host nation's military. And I tell you I could have been very happy making a career out of the military. >> Yeah. >> But I had my goal of getting into law enforcement. And when I got out of Vietnam, I had just a two year obligation, or inactive duty in those days, so I applied for the Drug Law Enforcement Agency at the time. And the only reason I did that is because they had an operational program overseas. And I think even today the Drug Enforcement Administration is the only agency that has an operational program. You know, every law enforcement agency - FBI, Secret Service, Customs, whoever, ICE - they all have liaison officers overseas. >> OK. >> But DEA they actually have agents that work with the host nation and make cases and collect intelligence and develop informants and things like that, so that's why I went into drug law enforcement. >> OK. >> So again Vietnam kind of shaped my whole career. So it's kind of ironic when I got back from Vietnam I really never looked back for many, many years. But now, as I reflect back on it, I realize how important that was in my personal development. And the reason I'm going to some length in talking about that is because I know in this project that you have there'll be a lot of people who will speak about the negatives of the war. >> Yeah. >> And there is another side to it. >> Yeah. >> And I just wanted to make that clear. >> Yeah. Thank you very much for talking about that. I mean you're right. We talked about the horrors of war and some disturbing photographs, but, you know, the leadership side and being able to grow in that environment that's definitely an aspect to talk about. Do you think that's like a unique way of looking back on Vietnam? Have you talked to anybody else about your views on that time? >> I have a couple of friends of mine who I'm still in touch with who I worked with at various times or in my tour of duty there and they do share the same feeling about it as I do. So yeah, there are many of us. We just don't have a forum. We don't need one. >> Right. >> So you never hear us speak, but we're there. >> Yeah. >> And I don't know, you know, I mean we're here. Let me tell you one other thing. >> Yeah. >> That you probably never - I don't know. How much time do we have? Because I don't want to go over. >> Yeah. No. I think I'm technically limited to one hour for the project. >> OK. >> But just keep going. I mean this is... >> Well, it's just kind of - and again, I know you're talking about those days. >> True. >> And as part of those days one of the big events was May Day demonstrations on the national mall in 1971. >> OK. >> And they had, you know, a number of disparaged anti-war groups that had joined together determined to shutdown Washington. It was actually planned for a week following John Kerry, you know, who later became senator and then secretary of state. It's when he and some of his group had thrown their medals down on the Capitol steps in protest of the wars and he kind of used that to launch his political career. >> Yeah. >> Well, what people don't realize - it's kind of funny really. I was a brand new Drug Enforcement agent in Philadelphia. I had finished training in December of 1970. And the day - I guess April 30th they called all of us agents into the office in Philadelphia and said, "We need you to go down to Washington and infiltrate the protest organizations." The reason being that Nixon had already decided he was going to pull their marching permit. >> Yeah. >> But he wanted to have some documentation to back him up if it ever went to court. >> OK. >> So they had about 200 DEA agents from up and down the East Coast assemble at the State Department and we were given bent pennies to identify ourselves. We weren't supposed to have any credentials. We couldn't carry any weapons. >> Yeah. >> They just gave us a bent penny. >> Wow. >> So that if we were caught, if we were stopped by a cop, we could show him that and they would know that we were an agent and not a protester. ^M00:26:39 [ Laughter ] ^M00:26:40 And our job was to infiltrate the groups and then the next day document their drug use. >> Oh. >> And, of course, it was - and again, it kind of goes back to this thing were they genuine protests? I can tell you that huge demonstration it was a party. >> Yeah. >> And there were drugs everywhere. >> Yeah. >> So it was not a very difficult assignment, but, you know, as a new agent I did what I was told. >> Right. >> And we documented, of course, on that Sunday morning the police ran everybody out and we had to document our experience, observations or drug use and went home. >> Yeah. >> But I thought it was kind of ironic that I ended up doing that. >> Wow. >> And it's something that people they have no idea. It's a piece of history that no one has ever heard of. >> Yeah, I've never heard of that before. >> So I just thought that was an interesting sidelight. >> Absolutely. >> And... >> So this - oh, yeah. Go ahead! Go ahead! >> Well, I was going to say and the last thing I wanted to mention of all things. >> Yeah. >> You know, back in the mid-90s I was in charge of all - I went back to Asia in charge of all of DEA's Southeast Asian operation. >> OK. >> And at that time the Clinton administration in normalizing relations with the Vietnamese. >> OK. >> This was not an easy thing to do because there were so many wounded warriors from the war. >> Yeah. >> And MIAs and that sort of thing. >> Right. >> It was a very difficult thing to do politically. >> Right. >> The State Department looked for some issue with which they thought we could cooperate and kind of start to build a relationship with the Vietnamese. >> Yeah. >> And they picked drugs. So, of course, I was Mr. Drug based in Bangkok.  >> Yeah. >> So I ended up making eleven trips over to Hanoi of all places and I'm a Vietnam veteran. >> Yeah. >> I go back to Vietnam but to Hanoi. I made eleven trips working with the government there. >> Wow. >> And eventually we were able to set up a DEA office at the American Embassy in Hanoi. >> OK. >> So again, it was kind of ironic, you know, being a Vietnam veteran. >> Yeah. >> And then to come back and normalize your relations with them, so to speak. >> Right. Wow. >> But it was an interesting experience. And one last thing, I tell people I was in a bar one night in Hanoi and I'm sitting there and there's a Vietnamese who started talking. He spoke pretty good English and at some point in our conversation I asked him I said, "Well, so what do you think of the war?" >> Yeah. >> The guy looks at me and he says, "Which one?" I mean their whole history has been nothing but war. ^M00:30:00 >> Yeah. >> Again while we are as a nation kind of obsessed with Vietnam. >> Right. >> To them it was just another war. >> Wow. Yeah. >> A perspective that a lot of people don't have or don't realize. >> Right. Right. Because if anyone in the U.S. says or asks or says the word Vietnam, most people don't think of the country first, they think of the war first. >> Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And they're very nice people. >> Yeah. Yeah. So going back, I have so many questions now, of course, because you just told me some very interesting stories there. So going back and helping the same government that you had just been fighting, I mean like were they happy about it? Were people on their side, you know, welcoming this DEA office. >> Well they were very welcoming to us I think for several reasons - one, DEA internationally has a very good reputation. >> Yeah. >> And we also have money, so we're able to help them to, you know, help the police units to buy equipment here. >> Right. >> And things like that, so obviously they were interested in that. >> Yeah. >> Of my eleven trips there was only one negative thing I ever saw. I mean every time we would show up to Hanoi the director-general of the national police would take me out for dinner. >> Wow. >> And they treated me like royalty. >> Wow. >> I put on the first - I say I. DEA put on the first training school at my request in Hanoi ever. And, of course, at the graduation I was the speaker, and during my remarks there was a little scuffle in the back and they actually pulled some guy out of the room. >> Oh. >> And after I was finished, the general came over to me and said, "Mr. Lutz, I apologize." You know, and I didn't even realize what had happened. >> Yeah. >> But he told me that the fella, his brother had been killed in the war. >> Oh. >> And he just kind of flipped out and they had to take him out of the room. That was the only incident in all of the time I spent over there. >> Wow. >> So they were very - and I'll tell you we had an ambassador there. I know you're a political science major, so you're probably interested to hear some of this. >> Absolutely. >> The ambassador was a guy named Pete Peterson from Florida. He was a representative U.S. congressman, and he was a prisoner of war with John McCain actually in the Hanoi Hilton group for many years. >> Wow. >> When he got home he ran for congress. Well, he led the charge on normalization of us with the Vietnamese. >> Wow. >> So you talk about irony. I mean this guy was a prisoner of war. >> Yeah. >> He gave up his congressional seat in order to be eligible to be appointed the ambassador to Vietnam. >> Wow. >> And, of course, I worked through him to get our DEA office established there. >> Yeah. >> And quite a guy he was. He even ended up marrying a Vietnamese Australian woman, who I got to know. >> Wow. >> I mean there was a whole, you know, interesting history of how we came to become what I think is a pretty good relationship today. >> Right. >> And, of course, during those 20 years we had been estranged from them. And ironically the Japanese, the Koreans, the Australians who had all fought with us there, they were not held back and their businessmen went in and they owned the place and our businessmen couldn't get in. >> Oh. >> So after we were able to establish these better relations with them. >> Yeah. >> It opened up the door to our business and I think, you know, our economy is benefiting by it. >> Right. Wow. That has to say so much to both sides that, you know, you and this other Peterson, you know, people that were directly involved in the conflict are now there to offer an olive branch. >> Yeah. >> That's remarkable. Do you think you had like an advantage working there? Like do you think it was better to have people that were involved working? Like do you think you had an advantage?  >> You mean former people. No, I don't think it was an advantage. I think they were willing to look past that. >> Yeah. >> I mean they suffered much more than we did in terms of fatalities and destruction obviously. >> Yeah. >> But I think they were willing to look past that. And again, I think it had to do with the fact that war was something they had lived with their entire lives. If it wasn't the Japanese, it was the French. If it wasn't the French, it was the Chinese. >> Yeah. >> If it wasn't the Chinese, it was the Americans. I mean, you know, so I guess you could say they don't hold a grudge. >> Yeah. >> I mean they may politically. It's to their advantage obviously when you're negotiating with somebody to hold that out. >> Sure, yeah. >> And say, "You need to make concessions because look at what you did to us." >> Right. >> But I think in their heart of hearts they have looked past that. >> Right. Well, I mean I think, you know, talking about how we covered Vietnam in class, I think that's a side that really needs more attention and that people should really be paying attention to much better nowadays, and I'd like to thank you for adding that to this interview. >> Well, I know we might've gone a little bit off topic, but I hope you can take something from that. >> Absolutely. >> With your project. >> Yeah. No, that's absolutely on topic. Yeah. Well, thank you very much. I mean is there any other stories or anything else you want to say? ^M00:36:37 [ Laughter ] ^M00:36:39 I'm all yours. >> Well, I was just thinking that I guess the other major issue that people have with Vietnam. >> Yeah. >> Is why in the world were we there? >> Right. >> You know, we had no business being there. It wasn't in America's interest to be there. >> Sure. >> And I take exception to that. >> Yeah. >> You know, because I think unless - and you're at a disadvantage people your age because you didn't live through the Cold War. >> Right. >> And it's difficult to put yourself in that era and look at it as many of us did. >> Yeah. >> We felt truly threatened by communism. >> Yeah. >> By the Soviets, and in the case of Vietnam, particularly by the Chinese. >> Yeah. >> And I can tell you that the domino theory was not just a theory, it was a real possibility. >> Right. >> And it's something that we needed to - we had friends like Thailand, you know, the Thais, the king, Mongkut, sent two war elephants and gave them to Abraham Lincoln to fight in the Civil War. ^M00:38:09 [ Laughter ] ^M00:38:10 >> Wow. >> So we have many friends in Asia and I think with that comes a responsibility, particularly when you're friends are threatened. >> Yeah. >> But let me just say, you know, people say, "Well, we shouldn't have been interfering because it was just a matter of changing borders." In other words, there had been a convention that had decided that Vietnam would be split in two. >> Yeah. >> And so we were really there to uphold that demarcation, OK? >> Right. >> Now, I guess, you know, people have argued that, well, it was just a question of rewriting borders and things like that. >> Something internal. >> It was an internal situation within Vietnam. >> Yeah. >> And we shouldn't have been involved. >> Right. >> OK. I think about World War II, OK? >> Yeah. >> We were attacked by Japan, OK? And we had a right to go to war against them.  >> Right. >> But in Europe the Germans never interfered. All they were trying to do is rewrite the boundaries in Europe. >> Right. >> You know, they never threatened us. I mean they might have sunk the Lusitania, but in terms of actually threatening to invade the United States, I mean that never happened. >> Right. >> But yet we went to war against the Germans. >> Right. >> We did so to protect our allies and our friends, and I look at Vietnam the same way. >> Yeah. [Inaudible]. ^M00:40:00 >> So I think too much is made of that, you know, questioning why we were there. I think we had good reason to be there. So anyway, that's my view. >> Yeah. >> And I'm sticking to it. ^M00:40:17 [ Laughter ] ^M00:40:19 >> Well, I won't debate you or anything. I mean I think that's definitely valid. I mean, of course, people at the time, you know, talking about World War II brought that argument up. There was debate whether we should enter or not and they said, "This is a European matter," you know, "We're over here." >> Right. >> But, you know, nowadays nobody in retrospect says, "Well, the U.S. should have stayed out of it." >> Yeah, exactly. >> Yeah. >> Exactly. But again, Vietnam is always look at differently. >> Yeah. >> And it goes back to what we talked about early in our conversation. >> Yeah. >> So anyway. >> Yeah. >> All right, Zach. Well again, I hope that helps you.  >> Yeah, of course. >> Are you a junior? A senior? What? >> Actually, I'm a senior, yeah. >> Senior. So what are you going to do next? Going to law school? >> Yeah. So actually I'll be here. I added another history major on top a little late, so I'll be here for an extra semester.  >> Oh, OK. >> But then, yeah, I'm going to start applying to law schools and see where that gets me. >> Yeah. Well, good luck to you. And I don't want to see you turn into a defense attorney.  ^M00:41:30 [ Laughter ] ^M00:41:31 >> I'll do my best to stay clear of that. >> Anyway, Zach, very nice talking with you. >> It was a pleasure. >> And all the best to you in the future. And if you do think of any other questions, please don't hesitate to call me. >> Absolutely. >> Or email me. Whatever is fine, OK? >> Absolutely. Thank you very much, sir. >> You're quite welcome. Good night. >> Good night.

Interview by Lauren Nogay

>> OK, I'm going to start by saying that my name is Lauren Nogay and I'm connecting this interview on March 1st, 2018.  Just so you know, this is being recorded and it should last between 45 to-- 45 minutes to an hour.  Could you please state your name, the years you attended Penn State and your major when you were here. >> Yes.  My name is Lynn Mack-Costello.  At the-- At the time I was Lynn Mack.  I began Penn State in the fall of 1968 and graduated in December of 1971.  And during that time, I started off as a poli sci major and then switched into public speaking or speech communications which is now communication arts and sciences. >> OK.  Why did you choose Penn State? >> You know, it's interesting because I-- I had not thought about a huge school like that, but I have been part of a debate program in my high school and went down to a summer debate program at Penn State.  We were housed in East Hall and just fell in love with the campus.  And I've always felt that the school calls out to people. >> You said you changed your major, was there a particular course or professor that sort of inspired you to charge or was it more of a-- or in general-- >> Yeah, there's-- >> -- was there a course or professor that really made a lasting impression? >> Well, there actually was.  I mean I got involved in the speech and debate team right off the bat.  And now you're required to take Speech 100. >> Yes. >> Correct?  OK.  At the time, it was Speech 200, public speaking class.  And I didn't take that until fall of my sophomore year but I loved the professor, Mrs. Hila [assumed spelling], I still remember her name.  And so, I think that combined with the-- my involvement with public speaking and debate just kind of crystallized what I wanted to do.  So, that is when I switched. >> OK.  In your short biography, you kind of talked about a lot of the involvement you had on campus and you've also mentioned your involvement with the debate team.  So could you tell me a little more about that? >> Well, that was a fun time because at the time there were two separate programs, one for men and one for women.  Because the-- At that time the whole concept of universities and colleges was-- it was called in loco parentis, that they were acting in the place of parents as it pertain to women.  So, at the time, all women had to live on campus.  We had very strict visitation hours in the dorm.  We had a night curfew.  I believe freshman year was 10 and maybe 11 on weekends.  And then, you know, we gradually got involved with the Association for Women Students which is one of the two major campus organizations at the time, and start to get some of those restrictions change.  And I believe I digressed a bit from your point.  What was the original question? >> It was just add, just in general talking about your involvement while you were here-- >> OK. >> -- and what you were involved in. >> OK.  So that-- those sorts of restrictions got me involved in the Association for Women Students.  I was representative from each of the residence halls and then I gradually became more and more involved and was elected as president of the association into my sophomore year and continued that for two years.  Then the speech and debate was always something that I was very interested in.  My engagement with AWS also gave me entrees where-- to some of the other organizations, the Undergraduate Student Government, meetings with the president of the university, and involvement with a lot of the administrators on campus. >> I'm interested a little-- to know a little bit more about your time as president of the Association for Women Students.  Obviously, that no longer exists. >> It doesn't.  We actually-- Go ahead. >> So, I was just wondering, what were some of the most important issues for you regarding women on campus here and you can even answer that in a more broad sense, women in America or young women in America. >> OK.  That's a really broad topic and I'm probably not the person to talk about all of that.  But, at the time, like I said, when I started on campus, women were required to live in the dorms.  We were very protected.  There were dorm mothers that lived in the residence halls and kept track of things.  And so we started-- And as I said, this is a fledgling time as a women's movement as well.  And so I think everybody was becoming more and more aware that maybe the university shouldn't be acting as our parents, that we needed to, you know, have other freedom.  And, you know, our view was part of the requirement of women living on campus was, A, there was no off campus facilities, B, what would we do or how can we take care of ourselves if we live off campus.  And that it was just the university's way of maintaining full enrollment on campuses or in the dormitories.  And it was interesting because they always overenrolled.  And so in the fall, there would be, you know, the-- there were basement rooms and everything that were just filled to the hilts with girls because they expected, you know, a good number of them would be dropping out and heading home.  But anyway, so through the AWS, we started to work on things like relaxing the visitation hours.  There was actually I think that on-- I think it was like one Sunday a month we were allowed to have guys on the floors in the rooms but the door had to be open and the rule was you sit on the floor because [inaudible] knows we were just young things.  And I think, you know, girls today would just cringe at that concept.  There were no intercollegiate athletics for girls at that point in time.  So, what we started do, first was to change it so we didn't have to check in with the housemother every night.  We eventually, I think probably by the fall of 2070-- I'm sorry, 1970, had convinced the administration to get key cards.  They were dimpled keys.  And so, all the women's residence halls were changed so that we could admit ourselves after hours.  They had-- still had to lock the dorms at night.  And then we started petitioning for women to be able to move off campus and eventually it was allowed so that-- freshmen still had to live on campus but other women move off campus.  We did a lot of things because 1971 was the 100th anniversary of Penn-- girls or women on campus as students.  And so we had a big celebration that spring, week long.  We had also speakers come in from around the world.  Well, around the country and different place and things.  And so it was pretty exciting time.  And then our AWS was involved with the national organization which was the Intercollegiate Association for Women Students.  And through that, I eventually became the vice-president of that and then later on the executive director.  Through that, we were working at the national level to-- with respect to women's rights.  Some of our advisers were very much involved with lobbying efforts in Washington, DC.  I personally testified for passage of the Equal Rights Amendment before several state-- >> Oh wow. >> -- legislatures and also testified before Congress on Title IX.  Title IX which of course eventually gave rise to women or universities getting financial support for women athletics.  So, yeah, some really interesting things.  Obviously, we didn't win on the Equal Rights Amendment front, but that was also still a-- So many people-- pardon me-- became more aware of issues through that national movement to try and seek passage of the Equal Rights Amendment.  And I think to all of that, that eventually, I know as a matter of fact that that got my interest going in having a legal career.  So-- pardon me. >> So, in that sense, you would say sort of your time at Penn State, your involvement in Penn State really helped you define what you want to do career-wise? >> Absolutely.  The opportunities that were afforded me and just the experience of running an organization like that, you know, where you have a collect-- There are so many different-- such a range of different points of view and how do we make progress in areas, how do you achieve consensus on different issues and things like that. ^M00:10:17 So, yeah.  There were a number of opportunities that the university made available to the head of USG and myself, including sending four of us down to Washington, DC to meet the secretary of-- at the time it was Health, Education and Welfare.  His name was Finch.  So four of us went down, another woman in AWS and myself and had the Undergraduate Student Government, and one of the, I guess one of the vice presidents.  And we had a private meeting with him because he was interested finding more on what is happening on college campuses, what's the mood.  Because at that point in time and now we're talking late 1970, maybe spring of '71, actually probably a little bit earlier than that.  It may be-- have been the spring of '70.  We're talking Kent State and also the Vietnam riots around the country had just reached fever pitch.  There was a huge-- I remember when we drove into Washington, DC, just going through buses and buses lined up of students that were coming to protest Vietnam in DC.  So it was really-- and that's why I say kind of-- in my view '68 was kind of the beginning of all that.  And that's when so much happened that germinated everything that was become.  And so it's really a very cathartic time.  I remember sitting up on the office then in the second floor at the hub, which doesn't even exist anymore and, you know, meeting with some of the other undergraduate leaders.  And that was the time when Jesse Arnelle became the first African-American member of the Board of Trustees, which was-- you know, because we had the Black Liberation Front on campus.  There was Students for Democratic Society, which were the-- the more radicalized people.  My approach was trying to work within the system to affect change.  You know, so it-- so many dynamics going on.  Spring of 1970, and at that time, we were on trimesters. >> Yes. >> So, resident semesters.  Everything had gone just crazy.  I mean there were constant sit-ins and vigils in front of Old Main and inside Old Main.  And eventually the campus, they didn't cancel classes but they allowed you-- because everything was just nuts.  They allowed you to take a class that's pass/fail.  And so people just stopped going to classes because everybody was out and-- I just remember the whole lawn in front of Old Main being covered with people and tents and I think it was the people's university had kind of set itself up.  And, you know, so it's quite momentous.  And then of course there was the-- right in the wake of the Kent State shootings, which I don't know if that means anything to you. >> Oh yes. >> OK.  Well, Penn State was considered the next target. >> Yes. >> And I can still very visually remember, there was one night, there is-- in the main auditorium of the hub, there was just a big demonstration and, you know, people were called out that, you know, the National Guard was camped out near Beaver Stadium.  And we-- Ted Thompson was the president of the USG at that time and I myself were on the stage kind of monitoring the whole situation and because one speaker would get up and, you know, do his speech and we got to burn down the president's house which is what is now the Hintz Alumni Center on campus. >> Yes. >> That's where Walker lived at the time.  And so-- And you could just-- I can still feel that the energy as people kind of move towards the door and then somebody else would get up and say, no, we got to do things differently than Kent State, and we got to be peaceful, you know, and it just-- you know, that's-- and you can feel that energy sweeping back into the room.  And it would back and forth like that for couple of hours.  And eventually, the crowd decided we would be different from Kent State.  And we had a candle light march around campus.  But the camp-- the streets were lined with National Guards and with their guns, you know, at the ready in case things got a little crazy.  And so, you know, that night we're at the beginning of that march and it was just an amazing sensation to see that we weren't going to be, you know, find ourselves in the same situation as Kent State. >> That had to be very scary as well though with Kent State? >> Oh, yes [laughs].  Yes, it definitely was that [laughs].  You know, because you just don't know when you've got a crowd of, you know, a couple thousand students, what's going to happen, you know? >> Or what somebody else could do that could affect you? >> Precisely, precisely.  So, yes, a really interesting time.  And just the-- finding out about this thing is this class that you're taking and getting your email just got me thinking about so many things back then.  It's hard to believe it was 50 years ago [laughs]. >> So, you were talking about how, you know, Old Main lawn would be full of people.  What would you say was like the percentage of people sort of involved in this sort of thing among students? >> You know, that's a great question, Lauren, but I don't think I could assess that, you know, because-- >> It's a hard one. >> You just have the sense of everybody out there.  And, you know, there'd be rock music playing and, you know, this was in-- on the hills of Woodstock and things like that.  And everybody was in multi-hued clothes and, you know, the fashion sense even in 1968 was very different because, you know, the hippie movement was just developing.  And I remember-- I had been working with a Girl Scout troop in town in state college my freshman year.  And they had gone to Mexico and brought me back a leather vest that had these long tassels hanging from it.  So that was my hippie outfit and, you know, wearing that headband and things like that.  You know, and what's interesting is girls didn't wear jeans then.  Can you imagine a campus now where girls were either wearing shorts or big bell bottom pants or long flowy skirts?  But the skirts that we did wear were quite, quite short as I recall.  I remember living in east hall and wearing just a jacket and a long scarf and my legs were bare, you know.  There's a huge parking lot where-- what is now the creamery and the business buildings and staff were.  And we had to bend our way across, you know, through the-- sometimes the snow would be so high they'd have to use snowplows to kind of create on the tunnel or on the sidewalks to create a path for us.  So, it could be quite interesting going across that open terrain. >> What building did you live in east? >> Hastings. >> OK.  I lived in east when I was a freshman as well. >> Yeah, I guess a lot of freshmen do.  My daughter, my older daughter also went to Penn State, and she's out in west hall because at that time they had the engineering field-- the interest dorms and she's [inaudible] off at engineering.  But I was in Hastings for two years.  I was in Bigler for that debate workshop that has been done there for a week.  And so that was my sense, but can say campus was.  And then I moved off campus for my junior and part of my senior-- well, I was left in my senior year.  They ended up graduating two terms early. >> Oh wow.  So, you talked about the meeting you had in Washington, DC with Mr. Finch you said? >> Yes, [inaudible].  I believe his name was Finch. >> Was that just-- or you-- was it just Penn State students or did you have representatives from other schools? >> I don't know if there-- if he was meeting with others.  But the time that we were with him is just the four of us and himself and I believe one of his aides. >> OK.  That just-- that just interesting, why he would have perhaps asked representatives from Penn State specifically to come. >> Well, yeah, and I don't have any recollection if I knew at the time.  I suspect it was because we were seen as a campus that was likely to explode after Kent State. ^M00:20:05 And because I recall it was a very hastily arranged thing and the weather was quite sloppy.  And so it may have been because we did turn the tide and didn't have the right on campus that everybody-- like I said they brought in the National Guard already.  That they may have felt we were looking at things a little bit differently.  I don't know. ^M00:20:31 ^M00:20:35 >> So, what role do you feel like campus activism much like what you participated in how to rule on the larger political climate of the late '60s and early '70s?  What do you think changed as result or state [inaudible]? >> Well, yeah.  I think a number of things were done.  I think the-- I think there was some effort.  I hope the administration at the time agreed that we-- We're trying to work with the university to make change, affect change.  It was while I was there that the first student representative to the board of trustees was allowed.  The university senate also invited a couple of students to participate in some of their meetings.  And why Penn State in the middle of nowhere became such a focal point of so much of this energy is really kind of an interesting thing.  And I can't really tell you why.  I mean I'm sure there are professors who were there at the time who might have some theories about why that was.  You know, because-- everybody is-- view at that time was-- we were just as, you know, little college town in the middle of the-- >> Yeah. >> -- the farm, in the hills of Pennsylvania.  So, with nothing, you know, nearby.  So, it is really a very interesting question.  Of course we as now had huge populations from-- of students from Pittsburgh, Philly and New York.  You know, so what is it that we came in with that made us, you know, so focused on nationwide and worldwide events?  Remember too that the, you know, I think Vietnam was very much on the minds of everybody.  I remember the first Vietnam War that-- you know, they started the lottery system for the draft because people were not enlisting because they didn't want to go to Vietnam.  But yet all of us came out of high schools where we had lost [inaudible] high school who had already gone to Vietnam and may have lost their lives, or came back into some really changed people.  I remember one of my best friends married another fellow from our class in high school.  And, you know, they tried to make it work for a while, but he just couldn't focus on anything.  I mean that, he has to eat and all that.  So, we were aware of that and we have-- well we had the-- Nixon's election was fall of '68.  And I remember we were all down in the TV room because of course we didn't have TVs in our rooms [laughs]-- >> Yeah. >> -- at the time.  You know, watching the election returns and, you know-- and then he beat out George Montgomery [assumed spelling].  So, Montgomery, or was he later.  Goldwater. >> I think it was Goldwater. >> Pardon? >> I think. >> Yeah, it was Goldwater.  So-- and then they-- so in order to get enough people or men to fight in the war, they had to-- they created the draft and it was done by lottery.  And I, again, remember being in that TV lounge the night that the numbers were drawn and I don't know if you'd studied anything about the draft.  But what they did is they took each birth date, I think it was boys who have been born between 1945, '46 and 1950 in that initial draft were eligible for the draft.  And so they had this little plastic things falls.  And they put a birth date and so all 365, I don't think they use February 29th.  Each date was in that.  And then they mix those up.  And then they started, so draft number one, they pulled up and it was some date in September.  And so, anybody with a birth date, who was born on that date was now more than likely going to be called up to the draft.  And then, they went through the whole list.  I know one of my brothers-in-law was-- he got a very low draft number.  My husband got a very high draft number, which is maybe why he is my husband.  But every-- you know, the nation's attention was on, this is a new novel way of forcing men to go into the military, so that we have adequate troops for a very unpopular war. >> You talked about watching the news on TV, would that be sort of like a bunch of students sort of gathered around the TV to watch, or? >> Exactly, yeah.  Yeah, I remember the TV lounge, I don't know if that even exist anymore in Hastings or any of the dormitories.  But that's where you watch TV or they might have had a couple down at the hub.  We eventually got a small one up in the AWS office.  But yeah, the women would go in there.  Men were allowed in the TV room, but nowhere else in the dorm.  And, yeah, so we've watched the news, the reports every night coming in from Vietnam and people were-- you know, girls was just gathered around. >> Did you read any print news or mostly from the TV? >> You know, the Daily Collegian was pretty much our print news and everybody read it.  There were always copies in the dormitories.  I guess we're supposed to call them residence halls now.  But yeah, so-- And of course, it was free and they always had very good coverage of local and national events. >> In that vein, what were some of the things that really interested you particularly that were going on, that can include culturally or politically? >> I guess to an extent the music.  I wasn't a huge music buff but that was so much a part of the culture at the time.  But I got very quickly engaged in some of the campus activities.  And so, that really impacted my interest.  I didn't-- I was very, I guess in some ways, although liberal, conservative in terms of not, you know-- I didn't do drugs, you know, like other students did, even though I had very liberal views on a lot of things and still do.  So, you know, that meant I didn't head off to Woodstock and I didn't go to-- I didn't go all of the frat parties.  And, you know, I guess a lot of things don't change much.  But, I guess we were safe because we had to check into the dorms by curfew.  So, yeah.  I was very much engaged in what-- a lot of what other organizations on campus were doing, whether they were my cup of tea or not, I just felt as a student leader, I had to be informed about them. >> So you kind of had a very local mindset and you really were interested in what was going on specifically on campus and in state college. >> Oh, absolutely, yeah.  Absolutely.  You know, if we got women the permission to move off campus, was there going to be any place for them to live.  Now we had to look at that side of things, too. >> Did you meet with any sort of like the mayor of the state college or the board of the state college? >> Oh, that's very funny.  And I'll tell you why.  One of my professors in the Speech Communication Department was Paul Haltzman [assumed spelling] and his wife, I believe, was actually on the city council or she may have been mayor for a time at that time.  And, Ingrid Haltzman, I remember her name, just a lovely woman.  And Dr. Haltzman would have a few student people, you know, in the department come over very often.  You know, they'd had dinner and I remember they introduced me to Bigelow tea, not that that means anything to you.  But Ingrid took an interest in me because she was on the city council and like I said may have been mayor at a point in time.  And I was, you know, for whatever reason, deemed as one of the student leaders on campus. ^M00:30:04 And so, we maintained a friendship even after I moved out here to California, which was much, much later because they had moved up to the San Francisco area after Paul retired.  And I remember visiting them.  I remember going up there again after Ingrid had had a stroke and I didn't move out here until 1977.  So, in that perspective, yes, I did meet with some people from the community.  I had a good relationship with a lot of my professors who, of course, all lived in the community. >> How would you kind of then early characterize the PSU administration at the time?  Was it-- Did you like them or did you have complaints? >> Oh, we always had complaints.  You know, they made us live on campus.  We didn't-- >> Yeah. >> -- want to.  You know, we wanted to be able to bring to our room whom we wanted to and that's the royal we, not just myself necessarily.  Yet we-- I think whether it was just by dumb luck or whether it was a strategic move, we found ways of working with them to try and affect change so that we weren't always butting heads.  I remember having a number of meetings, the president of the university who-- after-- Eric Walker retired early on in my life there.  And I know I was president of AWS when they brought in the new president because there was a picture of the collegian with us-- with Ted Thompson and I, putting the dink on him, the freshman dink was we-- you had-- it was like a little beanie the freshmen were supposed to wear.  And there was an old story that if you went by the Obelisk, a freshman went by the Obelisk without there dink on them, it meant they weren't a virgin.  There's a little bit of old historic lore for you.  And I don't know when the freshman dink concept went out of style but it wasn't soon thereafter, you know, that was just not-- you know, wearing a little beanie around, no, thank you.  At any rate, so-- and I'm just trying to think, it was not Bryce Jordan, it was-- >> Was it Thomas? >> Yes.  Yes, it was, thank you.  And, that's who came in.  Boy, you're good. >> I've been doing some research around the time and what makes me ask that question is a lot of the research-- a lot of the stuff I found, it seemed a lot of students were very critical of Eric Walker and-- >> Oh, yes, very much so.  That's why we wanted-- or why some wanted to burn down his house.  Yeah.  And he represented really the old guard.  He's been in there for quite some period of time.  And, I mean, there was a real threat at that point in time.  There was one night, I think, when a bunch of students put his car in a little creek by the-- that used to be by the house.  And, you know, you just could have a sense of what would have had happened that night had people gone out and burned down the president's house. >> Yeah.  Yeah. >> So, yeah.  So yeah, there was a real threat there and, you know, when I say that some of us were working with the system and trying to work with the administration to affect change, that didn't mean everybody did.  I mean, there was a lot of anger.  Part of what it was at the time is Penn State had a lot of military contracts for development. >> Yeah.  I got that impression from the [inaudible]. >> So, in-- Yeah, I think they call it the water tower. >> Yes. >> It's more of a-- water tunnel. >> Yes. >> And, so there was a lot of research being done and, of course, you know, there were those who felt that that's just helping the military industrial complex and that Penn State should not be engaging in that sort of thing.  You know, with Vietnam and, you know, some of the other things around the world going on, that was very much a focal target.  There's even a newspaper that came out called the Water Tunnel. >> I thought-- That was actually what I was referencing.  I found a few copies of it in the archives. >> OK.  Well, there was actually a physical structure of [inaudible] Water Tunnel-- >> Yes. >> Well, that's where they were doing a lot of the experimentation and research.  So, yeah.  Oh, so you found that, that's very cool. >> Yeah.  I work in the library, so. >> Fantastic.  OK.  Well, do you go back to some of the old collegians from that period of time, they had my paper-- my picture and paper articles all the time.  They were very careful about getting news out of things on campus too.  There was something-- I think when I was elected, they sent me copies of press releases from papers all over the state.  You know, which was kind of interesting.  You'd never see that now. >> I know a lot of those copies of the collegian are available online as well. >> Oh, OK.  Yeah, I went through looking for some debate stuff two years ago when the Communication Arts and Sciences Department was reestablishing the debate program.  You know, and found some pictures with some of my old debate colleagues. >> OK.  We're getting pretty close to time, but I have a few closing questions. >> Absolutely. >> So, what's one suggestion you would offer to current Penn State students? >> That's a great question.  And I've not thought about that.  I've had the perspective of teaching there both face-to-face and for the world campus.  And so-- but of course that was 10 years ago.  Oh, my goodness.  And I'm sure the dynamics of students there have changed.  I think it's important to be sensitive to the past not just totally discarded, because what happened then is-- and what changes were affected in the late '60s, early '70s impacted how the university has been able to grow and change.  You know, looking for other sources of research grants as opposed to just relying on military for example, establishing firmer town and gown relationships because we are now sending more women to live off campus.  It was a small [inaudible] little town back in the day.  I mean, you go back to-- I mean, you look-- go through state college now and all of the housing everywhere, all the apartments, the-- allowing women to move off campus enabled the university to grow and I mean, in significant ways in terms of not having to provide housing anymore that opened up more housing.  And yeah, I think the world of Penn State and I really believe the [inaudible] but it has-- the ability to be there as a student is such a gift in terms of being able to take advantage of its resources and develop themselves into, you know, future leaders in whatever field they choose. >> OK.  And what would you say was your fondest memory here at Penn State? >> Oh, my.  Truly there are so many.  Fondest memory, I can give you really funny one. >> Up to you. >> Pardon? >> Absolutely up to you what you choose. >> Yeah.  Well, what was interesting is as women were allowed to move off campus, a new organization formed which was-- first it was called TIM, Town Independent Men.  But then it changed into ARHS, Association of Residence Hall Students.  And so a lot of my colleagues were other student leaders.  And so we would have parties together.  I remember my first exploration into bath tub punch.  Yeah.  That was ugly.  Balloon farm and, you know, whatever they put into it was all poured into the bathtub.  And that was in one of the residence halls because-- >> Wow. >> -- the ARHS people lived there.  Shortly after-- well, no June of-- was in '72 I suppose, graduate spring of '72.  Two of my friends from ARHS got married and I was in their wedding and I was actually just emailing with them yesterday. ^M00:39:59 So some long lifetime friendships have developed from Penn State.  So I guess that bathtub punch is my funny one.  I don't remember too much about the evening and that's probably a good thing.  Then-- but in terms of other moments, I think one that just came rushing back to me is for the required public speaking class.  I remember people had to do three types of speeches.  And I remember one which probably impacted me significantly was about a woman-- you couldn't get an abortion in Pennsylvania at that time.  They had to go up to New York and this woman was talking by her abortion.  And what a moving thing that was to think of, you know, a-- sad that you even have to think about that.  But-- so you have to go to some back alley place, you know, and no doctors were available to assist with this at that time, and just being so moved by that speech and its implications.  And that probably even further hardened my resolve and interest in the women's movement. >> Yeah.  Is there anything else that you would like to discuss at this? >> Oh, you know, it's interesting because your call inspired me.  Time Magazine just came out with a special edition on 1968.  So I think about because I-- and it really brought back a lot of memories.  Obviously, Martin Luther King and Bobby Kennedy were assassinated before I graduated high school but it was in 1968.  And, you know, then the flight around the moon, that was the first time--it's like these dichotomies of things happened, you know, the horrors of the war and the protest movements of about, you know, we can say the blacks were trying to be-- develop more freedoms and the whole progressive movement that the Kennedy's had represented.  And then our, you know-- and, you know, being the total opposite of what Richard Nixon was and what it represented, more of the military industrial focus.  Juxtapose against these great advances in-- at and-- we [inaudible], you know, an orbit around the moon, anything now.  But at the time that was-- that was when they first had captured a picture of what the planet Earth looked like from space. >> Yeah. >> And just had-- it just created a whole new perspective on what the universe was.  You know, so the dichotomy being the potentials, the hopes, the possibilities versus, you know, the anger and everything that was going on on the other side of the spectrum.  I don't know, an interesting time and I got to thank you and whoever developed the course for the opportunity that, you know, kind of recollects some of these things. >> Well, thank you for agreeing to do this.  It's very kind of you to give up some of your time to talk with me and to participate in this project. >> But I didn't even get to find out anything about you.  You're a senior? >> Yes, I am. >> And you're planning to do what? >> I'm going to graduate school. >> In? >> Library Science. >> Oh, fantastic.  Where about? >> Actually Kent State. >> Oh, interesting.  Well, I'm sure that thing-- dynamics have changed substantially. >> Yeah. >> I have an occasion to work at Wake Forest University.  One of my colleagues came from Kent State and just a very interesting woman.  And my sister-in-law is-- has been a librarian most of her life.  And, you know, how even-- and it's not just books anymore, all of the-- >> Wow. >> -- the digital, you know, versions of everything, that should be in that very-- I would say an exploration for you. >> Yeah, I'm very excited. >> Very good.  How long a program is it? >> Two years. >> Oh, OK, great.  Well, Lauren, if I can answer any other questions or if in retrospect things come up, I don't know what you have to do at this point.  Do feel free to let me know. >> OK.  Thank you very much.  I'll keep in touch. >> Oh, good, very good.  I'd like to hear what happens with this project and the conclusion for the class as a whole. >> Yeah.  A record of our interview will be posted online and I can send you the link to that so you can look at it. >> OK, very good. >> OK. >> All right.  Well, I wish you well and thank you. >> Thank you for your time.  Nice speaking with you. >> Yeah.  Nice talking to you, Lauren.  Take care. >> Bye. >> OK.  Bye-bye.

Interview by Quinn O'Neill

>> All righty, we are good to go, Ms. McKeon.  

>> Okay, good morning.

>> How you doing?

>> I'm good.  How are you?

>> Doing good, doing good.  It's a Monday, so as good as I can be I guess.  So I guess we'll start off with just the interview questions, sound good?

>> Sure.

>> Okay.  Sounds good, let me just get these up.  So what years did you attend Penn State?

>> I attended Penn State from March of '67 to March of '71.

>> Okay, nice.  So I'm not sure how much you know about the class that I'm taking, but it's the history of 1968.  So we're just going to be talking a little bit today about what events kind of occurred during the time that you were at Penn State, more specifically the year 1968, because it was such a transformational year in American history.  So next question:  Why did you choose Penn State for your university education?

>> Because my mother went to Penn State and graduated in 1944.  And my sister was at Penn State when I was applying.  And we grew up loving Penn State based on what my mother's experience had been.

>> Penn State family, nice.  

>> Yes.

>> What was your major at Penn State?  

>> I was a liberal arts French major with minors in Spanish and education.

>> Interesting.  And you now work in finance; is that it?

>> Yes.  

>> Okay, nice.  My brother was a finance major, so that seems a very cool field.  And I'm also in the liberal arts college.  I'm a political science major.  

>> Good for you.

>> Was there one particular course or professor at Penn State that made a lasting impression on your studies?

>> There was a professor but he was not in my major.  He was actually a professor of geology.  His name was Dr. Latman [phonetic].  He's kind of famous.  He took a very dry subject and made it very, very interesting.  He was a wonderful speaker and had a great sense of humor.  And while geology is not my field and I only took one course, it was more his presentation style that helped me when I got out of school and had to make presentations.  That really was a good example to me, how to keep people's interests.  

>> Okay, yeah, I've always found that the best way to make a class interesting, when a teacher can take a really boring subject and actually make you interested in it.  I know especially me, sciences aren't my strong suit.  So a teacher that could do that [inaudible].  Okay, so the next question is a little drifting way from your studies, but what kind of music did you like?  Because '60s and '70s were an era that had some pretty classic music coming out of them and a lot of different genres.  So if you could just give me a kind of synopsis on what kind of music you like/liked.

>> Well, I liked all kinds of music.  But, you know, Motown was very popular at that time.  And Temptations and those kinds of bands.  Beatles, of course.  Chicago.  The Eagles.  So my tastes were varied.  While I was at Penn State, I got to see in person Janis Joplin.  Who almost blew out my eardrums.  The Temptations and actually also Lou Rawls, those are the ones I remember. 

> Really?  That's really awesome.  And that's funny that you mentioned Janis Joplin.  Because we had speakers come into our lectures, and the first guy who came in was a folk music professor at Penn State Altoona.  And while he was at Penn State in 1968, he was in a band and they met Janis Joplin when she came to play.  He mentioned it too.  But another main focus of our studies is kind of the effect that the media had on current events back in 1968.  So where did you get/obtain your news while you were a college student?

>> Well, of course, the Collegian, the Center Daily Times.  Coming from New York, I also read the New York Times as much as I could.  And also something that was very popular at the time was Life Magazine.  And they had a lot of photojournalistic stories about what was going on in the world.  

>> Interesting, nice.  

>> And of course, you know, we also had nightly news, you know, on TV.  

>> Yeah.  That's really interesting.  We did an assignment earlier in the year.  We all had to pick a certain day in 1968 that we were to analyze the daily Collegians from headlines.  It covered all different aspects of the world, you know, from international to local to just student government.  So it was really interesting.  Okay, so next question.  There was so much occurring in the late 1960s, such as the first moon photos from space, or the student protests, or the presidential election in 1968.  What were your particular interests at the time?

>> Well, I would say all of the above.  I mean, I was one of those people who set my alarm to watch the moon landing.  And so I was certainly interested in moon photos.  And student protests were interesting.  Because Penn State in those days -- you know, without the immediacy of the media you have today, news would travel to us about other campuses very slowly.  We were two years behind the times.  And so we didn't hear all that much about the student protests.  We did hear about the Columbia University students taking over the president's office, that was a big deal.  But there weren't that many protests in 1968 that I was aware of at the time.  Most of the protests came after the Kent State shootings in 1970.  But, you know, we were certainly tuned into the Vietnam War.  It was a big deal because we still had the draft, and a lot of the young men that I was in school with were concerned about the draft, particularly if they had low draft numbers.  You know, they would watch the body counts on TV, and, you know, not want to finish school so that they would be subject to the draft.  And people talked about, you know, running off to Canada and becoming a conscientious objector.  So there was a lot of focus on that.  And then of course, the presidential election was iconic with Nixon running.  So all of those were things that were on our minds. 

>> Yeah, definitely.  There were so many different kind of like parts of society that were touched by different events that took place in 1968.  

>> 1968 was my first year that I could vote for president.  So that's why I felt this important duty to understand what was going on and who the candidates were.

>> Yes, that's definitely very true.  That's kind of like the last election was a lot of my fellow classmates -- I personally couldn't vote, I wasn't 18 at the time.  But I'm a political science major, so I would've loved to have voted.  That's such a turning point election, and I guess time will tell to see if this one is too.

>> Right.

>> So what were your -- behind all the interests you had, it seemed like you were a student of many interests who was just kind of eager to learn.  But what were your motivations in your interests and your major?

>> Well, again, friends affected by the draft were, you know, part of my interest of the student protests and what was going on in the Vietnam War.  My major was actually inspired -- French, was inspired by a high school teacher.  I happened to have a good ear for language.  And she was a very inspirational teacher.  And that was how I got involved in that.  And then of course, in those days, women always took education courses because that was something you could fall back on.  Because women were accepted in fields like nursing and teaching.  And Spanish was an interest because, again, it was a second language and I had a good ear for it.  In terms of music, I always liked music.  I was a piano player.  I became interested at Penn State in musical theater.  And I did audition for a couple of things, although I did not make it.  But, you know, it was certainly something that I became interested in and to this day still enjoy.  Certainly sports.  I had -- coming from New York City -- not that much exposure to sports.  And I became an avid football fan.  And one of the best courses I took at Penn State was a course on rules of the game.  And it was rules of all the major sports:  basketball; football; soccer; tennis.  It was a great course, very interesting and makes me a better spectator today. ^M00:10:33 >> Yeah, that's pretty interesting to see that they had classes that were kind of -- I hear of my friends taking certain gen eds that seem so specific or so kind of like an issue that you wouldn't think a class would be taught on.  And it's interesting to see they kind of had those classes that were more sparked by interests.

>> It actually satisfied a physical education credit that I needed. 

>> Oh, really, nice.  Killing two birds with one stone there.

>> Yeah.

>> So the next question actually, seems like you almost already answered it with that, but was there an interest that you developed at Penn State or before you arrived on campus maybe spurred by your experience at Penn State?

>> You know, I can't really think of anything else other than that what I've mentioned.  I mean, you have to understand that in 1968, there weren't as many opportunities, particularly for women, to get involved in things.  You know, there weren't as many sports for women.  The activities were not as varied as you have in the big array that you have today.  So you know, I was involved in sorority.  I was involved in music.  I was working part-time while I was going to school.  And we also were savoring the experience of being in school.  I think that one of the problems today is you have so many things that you kids want to get involved in that you almost overcommit and then you can't really enjoy any one thing. 

>> Very true.  A lot of people that I know who just came in [inaudible] and spread themselves too thin.  But it's funny you mention the fact that -- not funny, but women opportunity -- opportunities for women being so low.  Because we've taken a look at a lot of primary sources from 1968 over the past eight weeks in class.  And one that we keep coming back to was the policy for housing for women at Penn State.  I think I believe it was 1963.  And it was just the rules were so stringent for women and they just weren't applied to men equally at all.  It was basically that women had to be indoors or in their dorms I think it was by 10 or 11:00.  They couldn't have any guests.  They couldn't live off campus.  It was just really sexist and ridiculous.  

>> So imagine my experience when I got there in March of '67.  Those rules were still in effect.  We had to be in the dorms at 11:00 on weekdays, 12:00 on weekends.  Men were only allowed in the lobby to say good night or to pick you up.  A woman had to have one foot on the floor at all times.  You couldn't sit cross-legged on the couch, you know.  I mean, the rules were very strict.  To by the time I graduated, there were coed dorms.  My roommate's boyfriend was living with us 24 hours a day.  I mean, women didn't really move off campus that often, particularly if you were in sorority.  You know, there weren't as many apartment buildings as there are today for people to move to.  And so women mostly stayed in the dorms and maybe moved out their senior year.  

>> Okay.  That's really eye opening.  So it seems like it changed at lot for women while you were at Penn State.  What did you do for your personal like housing situation?

>> Well, personally I did not like the fact that the men were in the bathrooms.  You know, just didn't like coming out of the shower and not knowing who was standing at the sink, you know, that was uncomfortable.  I was very young when I started school.  And I grew up with two sisters, so this was an eye-opener.  And so I was not crazy about it.  I think the way it's done today where, you know, maybe men have their own bathroom, I don't know.

>> Yes, we do.

>> It's a little bit more comfortable for everybody.  And you know, the rule changes, some of them were good and some of them were, you know, a little bit too liberal.  But it's like any pendulum that swings, it usually over swing and comes back somewhere closer to the middle.  

>> Yes, definitely true.  Was there -- were there protests or kind of just people complaining about this when you first got to Penn State when those rules were in effect that caused it to change?

>> I don't think there were protests.  I think just it was, you know, a different time and people started requesting or -- you know, I guess not requesting, people just started breaking the rules.  And then there were too many people breaking the rules for them to really enforce it I guess.  And again, we were behind the times compared to what other schools were doing.  So I think it became apparent to the powers that be in administration that they had to loosen the rules a little bit.  I mean, I don't remember there being any demonstrations for that.

>> Okay.  It seems like just kind of people changing with the times.  Because, I mean.

>> Yeah, maybe student government, you know, had a role in that.  

>> Very true.  I'm actually on student government here, so it's kind of crazy to see the way -- I was involved in student government in high school too, but the student government in college just has a lot more sway and power and it's a lot more work.  So it's interesting to see that you can really have an impact, you know.  

>> Well, and I think that's changed too.  I think that in 1968, it was more a position of, you know, a popularity contest rather than having a real role or seat at the table.  

>> Yeah, that makes sense.  It was more oversight as time goes on.  But the next question is, what is one suggestion that you would offer to current Penn State students?

>> Well, kind of twofold.  One is to take time to develop the personal relationships, because those relationships may last your life.  So it's important for your lifetime.  I mean, so many kids on campus that I see, you know, really don't even have conversations.  They're walking together but they're all on their devices.  And you know, you're sitting in a group but everybody's texting one another, you're not really having in-depth conversations.  And when you're in close proximity like that, that's the time to develop friendships and deep relationships.  It's just too surface to be texting.  And I text all the time, but, you know, to people with whom I already have those relationships.  So I feel like maybe some of the relationships today are too superficial or surface because you don't really take the time to get to know people at a more in-depth level.  The second -- and you know, certainly in college, learning to team is a really important skill for use in the outside world.  Practically everything you do now is in the team.  And if you can't work and play well with others, you're going to be left behind.  But you know, going back to my point earlier about all of the opportunities that you get to enjoy and taste as students today -- you know, I've had several mentees that have managed a full schedule, and I marvel at how they do, you know, with a heavy work schedule for school but also with fun, with Lionettes, you know, with many other interests that they have.  But some -- one of the ones I had, one of my mentees, was so strung out because she was trying to do so much, that she was really ineffective at everything.  And was driving herself a little crazy.  And that's a good life lesson.  Because when you get to work, you need to be able to take on a heavy workload and make yourself, you know, worthwhile, useful, worthy.  But you also need to know how to manage your time and how to ask for help when you need it.  And I fear that tasting too many things in your opportunities there, you never really get to have a good experience in any one of them.   ^M00:20:19 >> Yeah, very true.  That's something my parents tell me every day.  Because I'm one of these people who I find myself stretching myself too thin.  Just looking forward for my next three years here, I need to kind of figure out where my priorities lie.  

>> Yeah.  I mean, look, school is a time for experimentation and to try different things and get out of your comfort zone, all that's well and good.  But then you need to sort of narrow down the scope.  So, you know, freshman year, yeah, you try a lot of different things.  I mean, I have a great niece who's at Penn State.  She's always lived in landlocked places and she decided to go out for crew.  And she's thoroughly enjoyed it, and she's become a good crew person and so on.  So that's a great thing to learn that she would never have come across before.  But, you know, she had to limit her involvement in that because of other things now that, you know, are more pressing in her schooling.  So you know, you need to learn how to balance.

>> Yeah, that's very sure.

>> You said, was that your great niece.  What year is she at Penn State?

>> She's a sophomore.

>> Okay, nice.  Because I have a few friends on that crew team here.  That's interesting.  So that wraps up with our standard set of questions but I've prepared a few follow-up questions to just ask you regarding certain aspects of 1968 in certain parts of our interview.  So we'll just get started with those if you are ready.

>> Yep. ^M00:22:03 >> Okay, so what significant events that occurred in 1968 do you remember the most vividly?  So these events that we're talking about -- that I'm asking about are kind of like the assassinations of Martin Luther King Jr. and Robert F. Kennedy and the moon.

>> Yeah, that was horrifying.  Because we had lived through the trauma of the Kennedy, you know, John F. Kennedy assassination, and we thought that was a once-in-a-lifetime experience that would never happen again.  And then here you are five years later and you have Martin Luther King, you have Robert Kennedy, and you start to think, you know, the world is coming apart.  So that was certainly something we were all upset and concerned about.

>> Yeah.  My dad's the same way about an issue, say it was just horrifying.  So I prepared this question too but after our conversation, I know you kind of your position on this was -- it definitely surprised me to know that there weren't as many protests on campus.  But did you participate in any demonstrations/protests on campus that challenged the current status quo?

>> Again, not in -- I don't remember them in 1968.  I mean, I know that during the time I was at school, the SDS students, the democratic society -- I forget the acronym for the other one.  Anyway, the weathermen [phonetic], they came into campus, and because we were so basically docile, they stirred things up.  They were outside agitators.  They weren't students at the school.  But they were going to different campuses to try to rile up campuses to get them to protest.  And so there may have been some minor ones, but, you know, they really didn't get a lot of publicity.  And they were considered, you know, not the right thing to do.  But then of course, when it started to affect the student population in 1970 with the Kent State shooting, that's when we had protests.  And those protests were peaceful.  That was the first time I understood what fake news was.  Because we had a peaceful demonstration where we all had candles in our hands and lined them all up to the library.  And we had some speakers.  And it was quiet.  It was peaceful.  It was, you know, more like a funeral procession.  The New York Times printed the next day that we had riots all over campus.  

>> Really?

>> And we said, where was that?  We were there, it wasn't there.

>> You were in it, that's ridiculous.  

>> Yeah.  So fake news is not new.  

>> It's a continuing trend.  Okay, so the next question.  1968 was a very transformational year for the world as a whole.  But was it a pivotal year in your life?

>> Sure for a lot of the reasons I've already mentioned.  But you know, I started Penn State when I was 16 1/2.

>> Really?  Why so young?

>> Well, I skipped eighth grade and I finished high school early.  We were on the trimester system, which is why I started in March 1967.  So I was very young.  I'd never been away from home.  I didn't go to sleep-away camp.  You know, I lived a very sheltered life.  I came up to Penn State.  And, you know, I was a freshman when everybody even in the freshman class had two semesters ahead of me.  So, you know, I was very green.  And so, you know, this was a whole new experience in many social regards, not just learning to study and manage my time and all of that.  I mean, I was a pretty good student, but I had to learn how to study differently in college than I did in high school.  By 1968, drugs started to become more prevalent on campus.  So you know, people would come to class stoned.  People would be in the dorms stoned.  You know, you'd smell it in the hallways.  And this was very shocking to me.  I was not interested in that.  And, you know, some of my friends got caught up in it, and it was isolating for me because I wasn't a part of that scene when it became very prevalent.  So that was kind of an eye-opener for me.  And then, you know, in those days, abortion was not legal.  Of course there were people who got themselves pregnant and, you know, would try to get an illegal abortion, and so that was an eye-opener.  So there were lots of new experiences for me.  

>> Sounds like it.  Well, thank you for sharing that aspect.  Because it just kind of opened up the door to a bunch of issues that you always kind of hear associated with that era, but never hear stories like that.  Yeah, especially the -- a lot of the culture that we talk about in class of late '60s, early '70s, is the drug culture and counterculture of the era, which was just huge -- played a huge role.  It kind of was in all aspects of society.  You see it in presidential elections -- sorry, I'm just -- sorry, there was just a pop-up on my screen.  But yeah, that whole drug culture was really a huge factor in the 1968 presidential election where Nixon calls for law and order and an end to all these riots and an end to all the drugs that were being used throughout society.  So to see that on a personal level with you at Penn State is really eye-opening.  Because I'm sure that was a huge shock to someone who's just come to college and drugs I feel like were just being introduced to the younger generation at that point; is that correct?

>> Yes.  And again, you know, it may have been earlier elsewhere, because we were somewhat behind the times.  But you know, I mean, in 1968 is when it became more prevalent and then continued the rest of my time on University Park campus.  

>> Definitely.  Well, thank you for sharing.  And the final question I had prepared is -- I wrote these a while ago, so it says how have things on campus and in society changed since 1968, but I'm going to alter that to ask, when was the last time you came to campus to visit or to see family or friends? ^M00:29:52 >> We actually have a home in State College.  We're there for every football game.  We're there for Thanksgiving.  I will be up in April for some meetings.  I chair the Development Council for the College of Liberal Arts.  

>> Really?

>> Yeah.  So I'm involved.  I also have had four mentees in the past.  I don't have one right now because of some other pressures right now in my life.  So yes, we're up on campus a lot.  And so there have been huge changes in not so much the scope of campus -- because the land was there -- but how it's been used.  When I was in the school in the year 2010 I think it was, they thought that the Shields Building would be the center of campus.  

>> Really, Shields?

>> Shields.  It hasn't quite gotten that big.  But, you know, certainly there are lots of changes.  The beautification of the campus has been wonderful in the last 10/15 years.  And it's still a great place to visit and a beautiful environment. 

>> Well, yeah, it certainly sounds like you're a great alumni.  

>> Well, our family -- between my husband's side of the family and mine, we now hold 17 degrees from Penn State.  So I'd say we're pretty committed.

>> I'd say so.  Man, that's awesome.  Have you seen things change for the better, do you think?

>> Oh, absolutely.  I mean, I've had the opportunity to attend some classes.  One with a granddaughter and one -- several when we have the meetings with the Development Council.  Very often we have breakout sessions and we have some of the current professors teaching us a class.  And it is fascinating how much more interactive the professors are now than they were when I was in school.  They were much more talking heads.  Not that they weren't smart and they weren't good at what they did, but I think professors in today's day and age consider the students more like customers.  And so therefore, they want to engage you and think of ways to make courses more interesting and memorable.  And so I think that's been certainly something for the better.

>> Definitely.  So those are all the prepared questions that I had for you.  But after speaking with you, you just sparked my interest a lot in terms of your personal experience and career.  Do you mind if I just ask you a few follow-up follow-up questions?  

>> No, that's okay.

>> This will only take a few minutes.  So what did you do after you graduated from Penn State?

>> After I graduated from Penn State, I went to work immediately at Liberty Mutual Insurance Company.  Because when I went into college, I thought I'd come out a French teacher or I'd work at the UN.  And teachers were no longer being hired.  There had been a real need for teachers when I went into school, but by the time I got out, there was a glut of teachers.  And so I went to the UN and they wanted me to type in three languages, and I told them I didn't type.  So I ended up getting hired by an insurance company because they were looking beyond -- some of the other employers who said, well, you're a teacher, you'll go back to teaching as soon as the market opens up.  And I had figured out in my student teaching that that's not something I really wanted to do.  So I worked at Liberty Mutual for a couple of years, and then I changed jobs and went to work for a food company in their insurance department as an assistant to the insurance manager.  I ended up spending 13 1/2 years there.  Had all kinds of positions there, and ended up as an assistant treasurer, responsible for insurance benefits and corporate communications.  So it was a great job because I didn't have to move jobs, because every two years I got a new position.  You know, kept my interest.

>> Yeah, that's a nice kick.  

>> Then after that -- I'm sorry.

>> No, I was just going to ask -- because I know -- I saw you're a CEO of what, is it a financial services company?  

>> Yes.  We actually are a program administrator for financial services companies.  

>> Okay, nice.  That's a really interesting career path.  Because definitely the way -- what I love about the college of liberal arts -- because sometimes I have friends who will I'll tell them that I'm a political science major and they'll kind of write me off and say it's easy, that I'm not an engineering major taking all the physics and stuff.  So it's kind of nice, I think liberal arts just opens up your career options a lot because you're open to so much in the curriculum.  And I think you're the perfect example of that.  You know, go make what you can of your career.  So it's really inspiring.

>> Well, that's one thing about liberal arts, is again, you learn about a lot of different things.  You learn to be adaptable.  You learn critical thinking skills.  All of that is usable in the workforce.  Look, I went to school at a time where my father encouraged me to go into business.  And I said, oh, dad, I'll never be in business.  I mean, I'm just not interested.  And I regretted not taking more business-related courses.  Which is why I helped develop the business minor in liberal arts.  Hold on one second. ^F00:36:13 ^M00:36:22 Sorry, just got a dry throat.  Anyway, as somebody who did a lot of hiring in my career, I loved to hire liberal arts majors because they weren't pigeonholed into one-way thinking. 

>> Did you say you helped develop the business minors through the liberal arts school?

>> Yes.  

>> Oh, that's awesome.  Because I'm actually thinking about pursuing that minor.  So thank you, not only for the interview but for that. 

>> Well, I think it's a great way to get a smattering of business and figure out if that's something that you're interested in.  And even when you get out of school, even if you start any kind of startup business or you go into politics, I mean, everything has a business component to it.  You still need to know how to make a budget, how to spend money responsibly, you know, how to borrow, how to hire, fire.  I mean, all of those are skills that you will need during your lifetime. 

>> Yeah, definitely.  So I think that wraps up all our questions.  Thanks for answering mine there at the end that weren't too 1968 related.  But just thought when I have the opportunity to speak with such a dedicated and experienced alumni, you know, take advantage of it.  But I'd like to thank you, Ms. McKeon, for all your help.  Sorry about the technical difficulties today.  I got here to the library and I was ready to go at 10:25, but I wasn't exactly sure how the program worked.  So I just had to get a quick little run down of how it worked and glad we got it all figured out.  But sorry for the confusion there.

>> Okay.  Well, I'm glad we got it done.  And if you have any follow-up questions, feel free to give me a call or send me an email.

>> Will do.  Hope this hasn't taken too much time out of your day, Ms. McKeon.  

>> Okay.  Well, good luck to you.  What do you do with this now?

>> So I will have to import this onto my computer.  Because I'm on a Mac in the library.  And then I have to write a I think it's a seven-page paper on your -- I kind of have to analyze the interview, talk about key components of experience here at Penn State, and your thoughts on the 1968 culture and different aspects that we are looking at.  And I think we covered all those.  So I will do that.  And then that'll our biggest project for the class, the key component.  So if you want, I can -- I'll be writing it over the next few weeks.  If you want, I can send it to you.  And you could look at it, make sure I'm not throwing any slanderous terms about you in there.

>> Okay, okay.

>> Don't worry.  But I'd love to send it to you and see what you think of it.

>> Okay, I'd be happy to look at it.

>> Well, thank you very much.  And I think you can hang up whenever, and you should be good to go. 

>> Okay, take care, Quinn.  Thank you.

>> Thank you very much, Ms. McKeon.  Great talking to you.

>> Same here.  Bye.

>> Bye. ^E00:39:53

Interview by Christopher Howe

^B00:00:03 >> Okay, so it tells me that we are recording. Can you still hear me, Bruce? >> I hear you fine. >> All righty, I think we're good. So would you mind just stating your name and any other relevant information that you think would benefit the audience, Bruce? >> Sure. My name is Bruce Miller. I'm a 1971 political science graduate, and I live in Naples, Florida, paradise. Except the Penn State campus in spring is heaven. >> There it is. I was hoping you'd say that. ^M00:00:46 [ Laughs ] ^M00:00:47 We love that. Okay, so now that you've introduced yourself, I'm just going to read the part of your bio that you submitted that was under Penn State experience. And then you can just jump in from there. Does that sound good? >> Sounds great. >> Okay, so I'm quoting you. I was on University Park campus from 1962 to 1966, and again from 1970 until '71. You dropped out your senior year, enlisted in the US Army for four years and returned to campus to get your degree in 1970. This was the time of often violent student protests to the Vietnam War. It was also a time of the beginning of rapid social changes such as the anti-war movement, LGBT rights, women's rights, greater racial equality, et cetera. The social fabric of America was changing rapidly, continuing into today. ^M00:01:51 ^M00:01:54 So that is a good introduction to -- well, our oral history that we're going to do here. So on that note, Bruce, do you have anything immediately that you wanted to talk about based on those subjects that you included in your bio? >> Yes. I'd like to talk about LGBT equality. >> Okay. >> Excuse me, I have a scratchy throat this morning. So let me just say that in 1962, when I was the freshman on the University Park campus, I came out to myself as a gay person. And at that time, the university frowned upon gay and lesbian students to the point where they were designated as having mental issues and provided -- not required, but provided -- counselling for gay and lesbians. Obviously, on a campus of 20,000 students when I was there -- it's a little larger now, more than double -- there were still a lot of gay and lesbian students, and there were certainly social events that we could attend. But for the most part, I was closeted on campus because the attitudes were not safe if one exposed themselves. >> Sure. >> And so I did not do that. But after four years, when I dropped out my senior year, because I had no idea what I was going to do on graduation, and went into the military for four years -- which I spent in Germany as a military policeman. Obviously, after eight weeks of Army basic training and eight weeks of specialized military police training and then three and a half years in Germany as the military policeman, I had matured a lot since I was on campus as a student. When I left the Army in 1971 and returned to campus to finish my degree, I had to go a whole additional year because I changed majors to political science when I returned. And so I had nothing but poli sci courses. I had all the other requisite courses. I had nothing but poli sci courses for the rest of my undergraduate studies, in which I did very well. At the time on campus, the anti-Vietnam War protests were going on. There were lots of speeches on the mall. And sometimes parading around campus or downtown. The anti-war movement was very big and Penn State students were engaged in it, but not to the extent that they were on some of the more liberal campuses like Cal Berkeley. >> Right. >> But nonetheless, Penn State students were engaged in the anti-war movement. One time, there was a speech on the Old Main mall -- it was an anti-war speech so I wanted to go listen to it. So I went and I was wearing my Army fatigue jacket. This would have been the March/April timeframe. So wearing that Army fatigue jacket tells me that it was a pretty cold day. And I was sitting on the park bench facing on the mall, facing Old Main and the lawn, listening to the speakers. And some people came around with movie cameras and took photos of me sitting on the park bench. That was the mood on campus, because at that point the administration was taking photos and live film of students engaged in the anti-war protest just in case they got out of hand. >> So that was the university that came by and actually filmed you? >> Yes, I'm assuming it was part of the administration at the time. >> That's interesting. >> I don't think they were TV networks. I think it was part of the university. >> And do you know if anything ever came of that? >> No. Nothing ever came of it. I didn't see myself on TV, which is one of the reasons I assumed that it might have been the university. It may not have been, but that was an assumption on my part. In the meantime, I had made friends on my return, remembering of course now, after four years in the military, I'm approximately eight years older than freshman, right? >> Right. >> And four years older than seniors on campus. And certainly much more mature than most of my fellow students, because of my experiences. >> Can you elaborate on which ways that you felt that contrast in your personal development and demeanor compared to the other students? Like in what ways did you get that feeling? >> Well, I know when I left campus, I was pretty immature. I just wanted to get a degree because that's what you did and you went and got a job and worked and that's what you did. But I didn't really have a full grasp of socioeconomic integration in society. I grew up in a lower middle-class family, so my parents were not professionals. I did not get very much guidance from them, other than the study hard and get good grades. >> Right. >> But when you're a military policeman especially, you're handling some difficult situations at times and you'd better do the right thing. And I had good training to do that. So the decisions I made I think were on a much more mature level than some of the decisions other students were making. ^M00:10:05 And I'm not judging anyone. I'm just saying I felt I was better equipped to handle certain types of situations. >> Sure. Sure. >> And that led me to -- I met with some of my gay friends with the anti-war movement going on. We decided it was long overdue that the university recognize LGBT students and not consider them students with mental issues, and press for rights. And so we formed what became the university's first university-recognized student group called Homophiles of Penn State, with the acronym HOPS, H-O-P-S. >> Okay. >> And we did that. We applied for a student charter, and it was granted and we gave as our purpose to educate in the areas of LGBT matters and equality and social events. And general communication among other LGBT students on campus. >> Right. >> The university granted the charter and we were very proud to be the first LGBT group on campus ever. And so we ran ads and had the Daily Collegian run stories on a new group that was coming on campus called HOPS, H-O-P-S, without telling them what it meant, Homophiles of Penn State. And we said on a certain date, the whole university will know about this new student group. And then the Collegian kept building on it and building on it, because they didn't know what it was either. And there were lots of articles guessing what it was and yada, yada, yada. >> So I'm assuming that there were a lot less organizations at the time. >> There were. >> The hype around this organization beginning was really -- it was the word around campus, you know? >> Well, it was the word around campus. Everyone was saying, "What is HOPS? What is HOPS?" So on the appointed day we told the Collegian we would let the entire campus know. So what we did, we had blue and white balloons with HOPS on them tied to all the posts on the mall going from College Avenue up to Petie. And we had a meeting with the Daily Collegian and we announced that HOPS stood for Homophiles of Penn State and we were the first university-recognized and chartered student organization for LGBT rights. >> And what was the reaction? >> The following day, the university revoked our charter. >> The university didn't know? Is that what you're saying? >> They should have known, if they had read what was on our application, that we were an LGBT organization. So I'm not sure what the breakdown was there. But once we went public, the university had a knee-jerk reaction and cancelled our charter. >> A classic administrative thing, I'm sure. >> Oh, it was done by the head of student affairs at the time. And I have forgotten his name. >> Do you mind if I ask one other quick question about that? >> Yes, go ahead. >> I was curious, this answers it partially, but I just wanted to get a little more feedback from you on what sort of feedback you got from the university when first presenting the idea for HOPS. How much of a struggle it was as well. >> That was not a struggle at all, Chris. Because to become a chartered student organization, you just simply went to the hub and you got the form to become a chartered student organization and you filled it out. And then you waited to see if the university would accept it. >> Okay. >> And that's what we did. Well, after the charter -- go ahead. >> Well, I was going to say -- I think you're about to say it too -- but now I'm really curious to see how things played out after this knee-jerk retraction from the university. >> Yes. So the Daily Collegian was outraged that the university would withdraw the charter when we were pushing for LGBT rights and that is it. And the right to socialize together at our own room in the hub like other student organizations. And they did editorials and articles and interviews of us, et cetera. And in the meantime, we staged sit-ins in the president's office in Old Main. >> Oh, wow. >> And Dr. Oswald came to West Hall for a meeting with students in West Hall, and that's where I spent my freshman year, in West Hall. And so we staged a sit-in at his meeting there as well. And he simply backed the university's position. I'm sure he was involved in the decision. And so what happened next was we were getting nowhere fast, so the ACLU -- I don't think I told you, I was president of HOPS. And we had a vice president, secretary and treasurer. So we had four officers. >> Okay. >> So the ACLU -- and again, I was prepared to lead the charge because I felt I was more mature than most other students. And I was not afraid of the administration. Intimidated, maybe, but not afraid. And I was a senior and I thought I'd be getting out soon anyway. It wound up I was awarded a full scholarship to do a master's, so I stayed on in the master's program. But the ACLU approached us and wanted to file suit against the university. But in order to do that, they needed two students to be party to the lawsuit. After all, they were bringing it on behalf of HOPS, and the likely candidates to do that would be the officers of the corporation. So I was one of the two students whose name was on the suit against Penn State. We won the case after a protracted battle. We were not allowed to discuss the settlement. And the university gave us our charter back. But that did not happen until late 1971 or '72. I'm a little foggy on the timeframe. >> You were off campus by that point then? >> Yes. I graduated in March of 19 -- let's see, '62, '66, '70. March of 1971 I graduated. I did one semester of my master's at Penn State, and then I went to Washington DC and found a job I just couldn't turn down and then moved to Washington. But I maintained my ties with the students at HOPS, and it existed for many years. I don't recall how long, because over time I got more involved in Washington, in the Washington culture, and less involved in the student group that I had helped to form at Penn State. ^M00:20:05 >> Now I have to ask about the March graduation. Was that considered early, or was graduation earlier at the time? >> No, that was not an early graduation for me. We were on -- I don't know what you're on now. We were on -- I think they were called semesters. There were three a year. >> Okay. >> I think you're on two a year now. >> Two a year, yep. >> Yeah. Yeah. We were on three a year. And so graduations were I believe December, March and June. >> That's interesting. >> I think that's the timeframe. So yeah, I graduated in March. Because remember, I got out of the Army in March and I only needed to do one year of poli sci courses to get my degree, which is what I did. >> Do you mind if I ask while we're on this slightly unrelated subject from LGBT, what was your major for your first three years, I think you said, before poli sci? >> I started out originally in pre-med. >> Oh. >> But I was not very strong in chemistry and physics, so after a year I got out of pre-med and went into DUS, Division of Undergraduate Studies. I think you still have that there. >> We do, yes. >> Yeah. It's for students that don't know what major they really want. And I don't remember what my last major was. It could have been business perhaps, before I dropped out and went in the Army. >> Now, okay, I want to touch on the Army too and your decision to drop out. Because it seems like there's a lot of interesting stuff that might be involved with that. But I want to finish with the first topic that we were on with HOPS and LGBT rights. So one thing I'm curious about hearing you talk about is what was the campus and student body I guess mindset and the climate surrounding LGBT rights at the time, when all these other movements were going on simultaneously? Anti-war, women's rights, African American rights and so on. So did students think that the LGBT movement was more important or less important? Or just right there on the same level with all those other movements going on? >> The number one movement at the time from my best recall is the anti-war movement. That was big nationwide. The black movement at Penn State, while there were black organizations, there weren't very many of them. And I don't believe they were very aggressive either. Penn State is a conservative university even today. And for a lot of students, they just simply were not activists. As a matter of fact, one of the questions you had asked me -- and we'll get to that a little later -- is how the activism differs today from then. And I get back to Penn State twice a year. I was vice chair of the For the Future campaign, the last major campaign for Penn State where we raised over $2.1 billion. And so I got to all the colleges on campus and met with all the deans and all the development people, and I spent a lot of time on campus. And I don't remember student activism when I was back on campus. So if there's anything going on now, I really am unaware of it. >> That's an interesting point you bring up. And like you said, we'll get to the comparison later. But one of the assignments that we had to do for this class which this reminds me of is look at a Daily Collegian from the time period. >> Yes. >> It was from I think February 1968, or maybe it was January. And one of the articles was the USG, the student government that's now UPU -- >> Right. >> They were looing into ways to stimulate student activity and combat what they called "intellectual lethargy." >> Yeah. >> And so they didn't come out and say it, but it seemed to me while I was reading it that what they were talking about was the fact that activism was so stifled comparatively on campus. And they wanted to -- at least some elements in the student body -- wanted to try and bring levels up to meet the national standard. Am I on the right track? >> Yeah. I think the way you quoted USG is absolutely right. Penn State has never -- yeah. >> Do you recall that term being used? Okay, I'm sorry. Do you recall that term being used on campus, intellectual lethargy? >> I don't recall that specific term, but it's a very great definition of the times. >> Okay. >> There was little going on on our campus. When the anti-war movement was big, especially on the west coast and in the Ivy schools, Penn State had its anti-war, like I said, speeches on the mall. And that was pretty much it. There really was not a lot of student activism except for that. And even that was not at the level it was on some of the other university campuses. ^M00:26:27 ^M00:26:30 >> And so do you have any thoughts on why that might have been the case? You already said that Penn State at the time, as far as you could reckon, was conservative and still is to this day. Do you have any idea as to maybe why that was and why that is still? >> I do. I think that there's a large portion of the population that are first-generation students at Penn State that do not come from wealthy families, that have strong work ethics. And they're there for one reason and one reason only, and that's to get a degree with a few beers on the side. >> That's right. >> And also, it's a lot different today, I believe. The academic standards at Penn State are much higher today than they were when I was there. >> Really? >> Oh yes. I mean, for University Park campus especially. I'm not 100% sure of this, but I think for the most part, most of those students are high two's or 3.0 projected minimums. And so the quality of the student is intellectually superior today than it was when I was there. I'm sure that's right. The college of the liberal arts, which was my college, was really mediocre at the time in most of its departments. Today of course, under Dean Welsh, the college of the liberal arts is one of the best liberal arts colleges not only at Penn State in the university, but in the world, in the country. >> You'll be glad to know that as a liberal arts student, I may be a little biased, but I tend to agree. And I can see reasons why that is the case even today. The rigor and -- one thing I really enjoy here when you compare it to other campuses is the fact that the teaching method seems so objective. There's very little opinion coming in from one side or the other. Which I really think it shows Penn State's value of free speech and deliberation and discussion and those types of values. >> Absolutely. >> So I'm sorry, I kind of interrupted your train of thought there, and this is about you, not about me of course. >> Well, it's comparing generational changes of students. And for that, I'm happy to contribute. >> Right, and that's what I was really -- >> I mean, I love to go back to football games and see the student section, and especially the white-outs. It is a happening. I mean, I'm so proud of Penn State students, not just at the football games, but everything they do with all the other organizations on campus. Including a very strong LGBT center on campus now in Bucci Building. >> That's right, yeah. ^M00:30:29 >> I'm just very proud of what the university is doing and how progressive it's become since the dark days when I was there. >> And I'm sure you and your organization, HOPS and others like it at the time, had so, so much to do with that. And I can see why it would be great to look back and see what really your generation and you and your friends personally spearheaded. ^M00:31:01 ^M00:31:04 >> Yeah. You know, Chris, I look back at that and I'm very glad of where it's come to at this point. And then yesterday in the mail my husband and I got a letter from a Penn State LGBT student who was awarded our scholarship. We have an endowed scholarship in LGBT. We have quite a few endowed scholarships at the university. But we have one in LGBT. And he wrote this letter and said he -- ^M00:31:48 ^M00:31:53 Excuse me. >> Take your time. >> He broke into tears when he got notice of the scholarship because the day before he was called all sorts of homophobic slurs on campus and didn't know how to deal with it and was struggling with how to deal with it. And he said he was glad there was other support for him, especially from alums. So there's still problems on campus, but we have come a long way. >> And that is very evident that we have. So you were talking about football games. I'm going to reorient the conversation a little bit. You were talking about football games and coming back and you know, remembering all the great memories here on campus, and just the fun social life aspect of it. So that brings me to one of my questions that I had wanted to ask you. So if you don't mind and can think of an example, I'm interested to hear one of your most vivid, memorable memories of what might be called a good story from your times here on Penn State. You know, maybe something that was grand fun or risky, adventurous. And you know, something maybe that you and your friend group maybe should not have done. Because as we know, this was a time period of really pushing the limits and breaking boundaries and those types of things. >> Well, I've thought about that question a lot. And in my first four years there, I truly was immature. And I didn't spend as much time studying as I should have. And Penn State, as you know, has a reputation as a party school. And there's so much to do socially. So my grades weren't the best. But when I returned from the Army and got involved in the formation of HOPS, one of the best and worst times was raising the level of consciousness about LGBT students on campus. And it was fun because in HOPS we had students at that time age 17, 18, all the way up to -- let's see, at that time I would have been about 26, 27 years old. And we had wonderful meetings and planning meetings and how we were going to roll this out and how we were going to make the biggest splash. And you know, that was the deal with the balloons on the mall and the hints to the Collegian that things were going to change. And we weren't going to tell them what. They'd have to wait like everybody else. The way we did that, that was a lot of fun. The downside was after the big splash, I don't think we expected the pushback that we got, nor the backlash that we got, not just from the administration. But the Collegian for months was full of letters to the editor on both sides of the issue. And those against LGBT rights, some of them were pretty crude. >> Now I'm interested, if you remember off the top of your head, were there any that maybe had -- I'm sure there was all sorts of vulgarity and crudeness as you put it. Do you recall there being any sort of constructive conversation surrounding it? There may have been opposing sides, but it wasn't necessarily just slinging slurs and just knee-jerk pushback, you know what I mean? >> Yeah. No, there were. There were thoughtful commentaries from professors on campus, from students on campus. You'd have to say liberal professors and students. Remember, this was the '70's. This was a long time ago. LGBT rights was just getting started after Stonewall in New York City. >> Right. >> And so for this to happen at Penn State, this was a big deal for a lot of people. So there were. There were a lot of positive articles and letters and commentaries, not just in the Daily Collegian, but of course the SCDT, the State College Daily Times, they report on what goes on on campus as well. And they got involved in that. And some of those city council members, the Bureau of State College City Council members, some of them wrote nice letters in support. I mean, what was so interesting is -- like it is in any type of unusual situation, even today does fake news ring a bell? There was so much misinformation and stereotyping that I understand why people get upset. It didn't make it right, and they obviously needed to be educated. But that still exists today, and every once in a while you'll see it in our national culture as well, right? So not everything has been settled in the way of LGBT rights, black rights, women's rights, human rights. There's still a ways to go. >> Right. And so I'm curious, do you see a -- well, what was your -- I have an idea obviously. But what was yours and HOPS' main message, main platform? And do you see a difference in I guess the LGBT movement of today versus the LGBT movement of your time and your movement? >> Yes. It's at a higher level. For instance, in our day, we were just beginning to educate the public and have the ability to socialize with other LGBT people. Today, in Bucci Building, the LGBT Student Resource Center, LGBT students can go and socialize with other LGBT students. ^M00:40:20 Not just socialize, but study together, go to events together. They have available to them what we only dreamed about back in the '70's. >> Right. >> And they have the university's support, and we did not, clearly. And so it's come a long way, and there is a big difference. And back in the '60's and '70's, even though HOPS was public, became public, I maintained as low a profile as I could, and so did the other officers and members of HOPS, because of the threats that were made against us. I was never the victim of a crime against me bodily. Epithets, yes. But it's totally different today. Most LGBT people can hold their head up high on campus and are not afraid to do so. And I think most students in general today support LGBT people as equals. >> Were there any instances back in '70-71 of HOPS members or maybe even LGBT group members that weren't a part of HOPS becoming or being the victims of any sort of crime at that time? >> A couple of students were beat up. Nothing really serious. That's serious enough. That's bullying. >> Right. >> But not to the point of hospitalization or maiming for life or anything like that. >> Okay. Well, I'm personally glad to hear that. >> Yeah. >> We've come a long way even from that. Because that in itself is -- well, what was suffered at the time, even if it wasn't to that extent, still wasn't anything that people should have to go through. So I want to segue a little bit towards -- I want to look at your military career a little bit and the endeavors. And since we're on the subject, how did being gay affect your military career and the enlistment process and boot camp training process? Did it play any part? Did you have to keep it under wraps? What was the situation surrounding that? >> 100% under wraps. I mean, I could have simply said on the application that I was gay, right, and I would not have been allowed to go in the military. But I wanted to serve my country, and I didn't think being gay should have anything to do with that, so I did it and I took the chance that I wouldn't be discovered. >> Did that scare you at all? Or did you feel fairly confident in your ability to manage the two things? >> Yes, I felt very confident in my ability to manage it. >> Okay. ^M00:44:03 ^M00:44:06 So going forward from that, looking just at the military aspect of it, what exactly influenced you to drop out when you did? Which just in and of itself is a big life choice to make right in the middle of college, to drop out for any reason. But in particular to join the military. And especially given that that was right at the height of the Vietnam War. What was your whole decision making process? What led to the final choice? What feelings were you having at the time? >> Sure. So I weighed alternatives, and I wanted to go into the military for two basic reasons. Number one, I didn't know what I wanted to do after graduation anyway. And I should. I should have known as a senior what I was going to do. And number two, I wanted to serve my country and mature at the same time, and because I was aware -- we had student recruiters on campus of course. And I think they're still there today. I was aware that overseas programs existed. I had two years of high school German and two years of German at Penn State. I was fluent in German. So I could serve my country, avoid going to Vietnam by enlisting for four years. I would have been drafted for two for sure if I'd dropped out of Penn State. Enlisted for four, got Germany as the guarantee, didn't know what I was going to do. But because I had almost enough credits to graduate, I was put in the MP program. >> Is that where they put people that are maybe -- I guess the way to word this would be people that they're more certain of their intellectual and leadership capability. Is that a higher level, the military police? >> Yes. >> Okay. >> Military police is one of the occupations. The security -- I forget what the security forces are called. But security was another area where they would put people with a lot of college credits. There were certain jobs that required a certain level of education, if you will. Manning a machine gun was not one of them. So yes, so that's how I became an MP. I didn't have a say in that. They put me in that field, they, the US Army. >> You said you're fluent in German. Did that come in handy often? And did you have an official capacity as, I don't know, a translator? >> Well, actually yes. I was not a translator. But I used to go out on military police patrols in Stuttgart, Germany where I was stationed and work with German police. And my partner could not speak German, but I did. So the German police and I would communicate and then I would translate into English for my partner what we were doing on certain trips. >> So that really did come in handy. That's good to -- I actually took German in high school too. So now you've got me thinking. >> Yeah. Well, I loved the fact that I spoke German. Mostly I did not speak German. I used to go to the Constutter folk fest and the Munich folk fest. And because I was fluent in German, I knew some German songs. And in Stuttgart especially, at the Constutter folk fest, they'd get to a point in the program, the umpapa bands are playing and everyone's singing in German and drinking beer and eating pretzels and chicken and just having a grand time. And I'll never forget this one time the master up on the stage of the band, the umpapa band, asked if there were any GI's in the audience that spoke German or knew any German songs. So I had had enough beers at that time. I raised my hand. He brought me up on the stage and I sang and led everybody there in Munchensteit Einhaufdreihaus. At that time I knew the whole thing, beginning to end. And I had a wonderful time, a great ovation when it was all over. I mean, things like that. I helped Germans that broke down on the Autobahn a couple of times. And I'll never forget, one guy told me in German of course, not English -- he was very glad that I stopped. He said, "This is unusual, an American stops to help me. None of the Germans will stop to help me." [Laughs] And then finally, a month before I was scheduled to get out of the Army, I had bought a new car about two months earlier and I was going to ship it back to the States. And I'm in downtown Stuttgart on my personal time, not as a military policeman. ^M00:50:33 And I had two German friends with me. And went through an intersection and was hit broadside by a lady in a big Mercedes. >> Oh no. >> And the German police were on the spot immediately. I mean, by the time I got out of the car, the German police were there. And the woman ran up to the German police and she explained to them that I ran a red light and it was my fault. And she just went on and on and on. >> No, no, no. I bet you corrected that, didn't you? >> When I answered back -- and by the way, I knew both of these German policemen because I worked with them -- that was ironic. But when I answered her in German, I said, "Excuse me. Einschuldigen, bitte. That is not what happened at all. You were the one that ran the red light and I have two witnesses here." And she immediately backed off and she said, "I apologize." And that was it. So I will never forget that. But she gave it the old college try. >> Bruce, you have just singlehandedly reinvigorated my desire to learn more German. And I thank you for that. And those just sound like absolutely wonderful experiences. And it's amazing to me that they're still so vivid, that you can remember them so well. That's how big of an impact I'm sure they must have had. >> They were great. >> They must have been. So this just popped into my head. What was the LGBT climate like in Germany at the time? Of course, you couldn't -- I mean, for all that was dear to you, you couldn't participate in any of it or really think about it, you know. But I'm sure in the back of your mind you were looking at the climate, looking at what was going on. Was it starting to emerge yet in Germany at the time? Or was that long, far off? >> In Germany, there were private clubs. And you either had to be gay to go to the club, or you had to know someone that was a member of the club to get you into the club. Okay, so I was fluent in German, and I can read. And we didn't have internet back then, but there were bookstores. And so I found out where the gay bars were in Stuttgart and I could go there and I would meet other GI's at these bars. And these bars, not all the bars were private. In other words, you didn't have to have a membership. You could just go and have a drink and socialize, just like you do in any bar. But some of them were private. And after I made German friends, gay German friends, some of them took me to the private bars as well. And there were some bars in some cities, not Stuttgart -- excuse me -- but in Frankfurt there was a huge bar. And if you go there on the weekend, there would be hundreds of GI's, gay GI's in those bars. >> No kidding. >> So while we ran the risk, obviously, of being caught, as long as you know, you did what everybody else did -- you went and you had a drink and you socialized, and then you went home. So we didn't give it much thought. We would just go to the bars where fellow gay GI's would go. So it wasn't that big a problem then. It was only a problem if someone came out. They were discharged immediately and dishonorably discharged. >> Right, of course, at the time, right. >> At the time, yeah. >> I actually didn't know that you'd be dishonorably discharged. So that was new information. I knew of course you would be discharged immediately. But wow, they really, really frowned upon it, didn't they? >> Of course. Like I said, if I had put -- they ask you on the application to join the military, "Are you gay?" And they ask you if you're homosexual. And if you say yes, that's it. You don't get in. >> Right. >> That was then. I don't know how it is today. I think it's different today, because I have heard on television that there are tens of thousands of LGBT servicemen. >> Well, I think today now it's perfectly acceptable to be. I don't know about the other orientations, but I think gay is completely allowed as far as I understand it. So yeah, even in that respect, huge steps have been made. It reminds me of -- this is totally off topic, but you know, minor as well. I have heard that the ancient Spartans I believe actually, their most elite, feared unit was entirely homosexual. And the thinking behind it was, "Okay, so if best friends, if brothers can fight so valiantly along each other's side, then with the even stronger emotional ties of lovers, think how much more effective the fighting capability would be." And apparently, it really worked. It was the most feared unit in all of Sparta. >> I did not know that. >> It's just an interesting, random tidbit that I have floating around in my head. >> Yeah, well thank you. >> Sure. So switching back to the State College area, were you aware of I guess any underground gay bars in the State College area while you were here? Did those exist? >> It wasn't underground. It was right out in the open. The My-O-My on College Avenue, right across from the wall, was a gay bar. >> Can you say the name one more time? >> Yes. It's My-O-My. >> My-O-My, okay. >> My-O-My, yeah. >> Got it, thank you. >> You're welcome. And so after I turned 21, that's where I would go. And then there would be usually when the bar closed -- I forget, 1:00 or 2:00 in the morning, whatever time that was -- there would usually be parties at some of the people that were in the bar -- they'd throw parties afterwards on weekends, not weeknights. And they were either fellow students or university professors. And we'd have parties after the bars closed on weekends. >> So wait, we have to touch on that a little more. There were actual university professors that were participating in the -- well, I don't know what you want to call it, the gay social activities and social scene as well. Is that what you're saying? >> Yes, yes. >> And did you have one of these professors for a class ever, and then see them at one of these parties? >> Yes. >> Tell me more about that, if you remember. >> Well, I was taken aback because I had no clue. But he actually hosted several parties and I always got an invitation. And we always talked. He was a philosophy professor. And so we would often get into opposing views just to challenge each other. But he was very good. He was bright. I would say brilliant. >> I never would have thought something like that. I'm really glad to know that. And yeah, philosophy professors are fun, aren't they? >> Excuse me. Yes. ^M01:00:03 Well, I never had much fun in philosophy classes. [Laughs] >> Let's see, I'm just looking through my questions here. >> Sure. >> I'll pause for a moment. Well, you keep talking about -- I'm sorry if it seems like I'm jumping back and forth between topics, but you've already just given me so much information that it's almost overwhelming. So I want to cover as much of it as possible. >> Sure. >> You mentioned that you wanted to join the military to mature and to gain life experience. And you said that repeatedly. Would you almost consider it a rite of passage, if you will, into true adult life I supposes? You know, a change from adolescence into adulthood? >> You know, I would. Because, like I mentioned earlier, I said I partied too much at Penn State initially. So I went from growing up in a lower middle-class family in a very small town, not being worldly, right? And then going to Penn State and partying way too much my first four years, having a great time and getting an education at the same time. And then going into the military where I matured as a human being. And then when I returned to campus, you know, it was a totally different experience. I felt I was in control, and I was not just being led around. So that's a big difference. There comes a point in everyone's life when they, I hope they feel they're in control of something, and hopefully their life. >> Yeah. That's a big thing. You know, I've been thinking a little bit. Ever since freshman year -- because I'm with you, the first year, it's all just about messing around. And frankly, messing up too. But every year since then, I've had a kind of similar fleeting thought about what would military life be like, and how could that improve my life? So I'm really interested to here all of this about your experience. So on that note, I'm curious -- go ahead. Go ahead, go ahead. >> No, I was just going to say the military is much different today. I mean, back then we had Vietnam. Now there's Afghanistan, Iraq, Yemen, who knows where else. From my perspective, really I look at college students today and I think, "I'm not so sure they have it as good as when we had it in the '60's and the '70's." Those were wonderful, carefree decades. And that's when the culture of the United States went under a rapid change. And I just don't mean the drug culture. I'm talking the drugs, the war, LGBT, black rights, women's rights. It was the '60's and '70's when all this stuff bubbled to the surface. And I look today and I look back on campus and I think, "Well, I guess everyone is just studying at a much more academically-known university and doing great things on campus and graduating and getting great jobs and getting out in the workforce. Well-educated and taking care of their families and life is good." But I do have a nostalgia for the '60's and '70's as well. >> So what did -- I want to ask quickly because I also want to touch briefly on the drug culture as you know, it was a huge part of pushing the limits of society at the time. But before we get to that point, I just want to get these two questions in about your choice to join the Army. What did your family think, and what did your friends think at the time about it? And then also, was it what you thought it would be like? >> So my family was okay with it. They didn't have any issue with it. They just were concerned I'd be sent to Vietnam. >> Of course. >> And even though I had a contract, a four-year contract to serve all my time in Germany, one of my friends high up in the military said, "You know, they could have cancelled that at any time and sent you to Vietnam. There's nothing you could have done about it." I said, "Well, I really didn't think about that." >> Scary thought. >> And my friends understood, because my friends I think also knew that I was ready to move on and get something more mature before I really decided what I wanted to do with my life. And that was the Army. And am I glad I did it? I'm absolutely glad I did it. And if the situation were the same again, I would hope I would make the same choice. Because it was wonderful living in another culture, speaking the language, becoming more of an internationalist, if you will. I'm very proud to be an American, but there is another world out there. And too often, Americans think they're number one and every one else is second- or third-class, and I've never been like that. And my experience in Germany has taught me to appreciate and value different cultures. So I'm very glad I did what I did in the way I did it. >> That's fantastic, Bruce. And thank you for your service, too. >> Thank you. >> And so moving on to the drug culture, as I mentioned before. Well, I don't know how much input you can have on this or not. I don't know what your activities were, we'll put it that way, and what you want to talk about. But mostly what I'm curious about is, what was your opinion on the drug culture? And what did you think of the lifestyles that tended to come with that culture at the time? >> Well, when I was on campus, if you say drugs you think of Haight-Ashbury in San Francisco. I mean, that was the place that got national attention for all the drug use. And all the various parts of the culture -- the drug culture, had many facets to it. And if somebody had one marijuana, did that make him a druggie? I don't think so. But the Haight-Ashbury section of San Francisco was known for constant use of drugs. Now on campus, marijuana was pretty freely available. And you would tend to get it at parties. I was not really into drugs. I never even smoked cigarettes, which my doctor is glad to hear. So not smoking cigarettes meant doing drugs, at that time marijuana. It was not something where you'd use a needle. You smoked the thing. >> Right. >> But I did experiment. I had three experiences with marijuana, and every time I threw up. So I knew that was a signal to me this was not for me. So I was not really involved in that. And I would say the people I associated with were not really part of a drug culture. They were casual users of drugs. They were not hung up on drugs. ^M01:10:04 So I don't remember it being a big problem at Penn State, although every once in a while you'd read in the Collegian that somebody was busted. But I don't think it was an overwhelming issue at Penn State back then. >> Okay. >> I don't even know if it is today. >> I really can't comment on today. I'm not sure either how it would be classified. I know that it's prevalent, but I don't know if problem is the word that would be used. >> Yeah. >> I don't know. But it's interesting, the Collegian article from '68 that I did read, one of the bottom corner stories was that three were busted on marijuana charges actually not far from my current apartment on the west side of campus. But it sounds like from what you said, that you didn't have to be a hippie with long hair and you know, flowing garments and flowers and everything to be a drug user. But to be a heavy drug user, you more than likely were a hippie or something along those types. Is that accurate? >> Well, I'm not sure that's accurate, Chris. I mean, I had hair down over my shoulders at one point. When I was a freshman, I didn't. I had a buzzcut. >> That's what college will do to you. >> I know. [Laughs] I did have hair on my shoulders, and I wore bell bottoms. And I didn't have the really high platform shoes, but I did have some fairly high platform shoes. >> No kidding. >> But so did everybody else on campus. But it didn't mean they were drug users. That's the way people dressed. >> Okay, I didn't really know what the social distinctions were necessarily. So I kind of, I don't want to say -- well, it is relevant to the times. I'm just kind of curious about what the attire was like and the music that people listened to. And you know, the little stuff that's easy to forget with all this big other stuff and movements and all the less positive things going on, you know? I'm kind of curious what the day-to-day culture was like. >> Well, you see, when the Beatles were big, the Beatles had hair down on their shoulders and wore bell bottoms and platform shoes. And that's what the college kids were wearing. It didn't last long, maybe a year, maybe two years at most. But there was this little window when the Beatles were big that that's what everyone was wearing. And I mean everyone on campus. There's got to be some video somewhere. >> I would love to see them. I really would. Do you know if that transferred off campus at all? So what I'm asking, was it an age group thing as well, not just a college thing? >> Yeah, it was mostly a college age group thing. ^M01:13:31 ^M01:13:34 >> Interesting. Interesting. I'm trying to think, what was -- hmm. What was the longest hair? I have to ask a fun question. What was the longest hair that you ever saw on campus? And was there a certain point after which that it was no longer fashionable? Like could you wear your hair too long at the time? >> No. You couldn't wear it too long. But that long hair with the bell bottoms and platform shoes, that was probably, like I said, a two-year trend at the time. And that's enough time to let your hair grown down to your shoulders, but for most people it didn't go beyond their shoulders. But there were hippies on campus. And their hair would be down the middle of their back. >> Wow. You see that every once in a while today, but at least in my experience I wouldn't associate those people with anything remotely resembling the hippie movement. >> Exactly. >> Yeah. So let's see, we could talk about that one all day, but I want to make sure we stay on track here. What were and are your thoughts on the tactics that were used by the new generation of student radicals? So I guess primarily that would consist of the new left. Especially a poli sci major as you were, I'm sure you were really interested in the theory of it as well, not just the tactics. But I'm curious about both. >> Well, we're talking about the new generation of student radicals, so by that do you mean today? >> Well, maybe that wasn't the best wording. I was more curious about the radicals of the time in the late '60's, early '70's. >> Oh. Oh. >> But I did want to do a comparative analysis too, after we lay the groundwork. >> Okay. So back in the '60's and early '70's when I was on campus, it seemed the only way you could get attention for whatever issue you wanted to address, if it were ignored by the administration, is to protest. And the two main forms of protest were sit-ins and speeches with loudspeakers on the steps of Old Main and on the lawn there. >> Where would you get that equipment? Was it rented out by the university? >> No. You had to bring your own equipment. You had to get your own. No, no, this was anti-administration. >> That's right. So that wouldn't make much sense for the university to provide it. I just can't imagine where students would be getting such types of equipment. That's a big commitment to purchase something like that, wasn't it? >> Well, they had handheld microphones that looked like cheerleader things. I don't know if they're all that expensive. And remember, when we talk about students on campus, there's also a large number of students off campus and people in the community that were sympathetic to whatever cause you were supporting. And you'd raise money, fundraisers, if you will, to get the equipment you needed. We did our message, the HOPS message, with balloons, blue and white balloons, and sit-ins. But it's not very expensive to get the attention of the administration. >> Right. >> Now the new generation, for the first time in a long time, I felt really good -- horrible at the tragedy at that school shooting in Fort Lauderdale. But really thankful that the students mobilized to try and do something about guns in our society. And they're having results. And I can only hope that the college generation of students are going to pick up on that and do something about it. That tells you where I stand on the NRA. But it was refreshing to see how quickly the movement took traction after those shootings, after those murders, and gained traction. And I just hope it doesn't die out. You've got to keep the pressure on. >> And it is incredible to see the effect that people can have. You know, it doesn't come -- well, it almost never comes from the government. It never comes from idleness. It's always a mobilization of people. People can do more than they think they can do, in my opinion. >> Absolutely. >> But one thing that I do want to ask is, do you think that the climate of protest and peaceable -- although sometimes today not always peaceable assembly -- do you think we've pushed the limits a little bit too far today? Or do you think maybe we have forgotten some of the key tenants of thoughtful and intelligent deliberation? And how that mixes in with the protest atmosphere -- does that make sense? ^M01:20:25 >> Yes. Well, human rights should be foremost in everyone's thinking on every issue, whether it be climate change and education for future generations, immigration, guns in society. That's a reflection on who our society is, on what our society is, by what we allow and codify into law of what we can do as human beings. And over time, societies change and changes need to be made legally to keep up with society's changes. They always lag. There's always a lag time. I get it. But who has more rights: a student trying to get an education in eighth or ninth grade and the right to be protected, or someone who bears arms that can get them easily regardless of mental condition? It just makes no sense. >> It's tough too, because some things are actually written into law and physically protected in our laws and even our constitution. And other things that very arguably should also be protected are not. And so it's just a constant -- I mean, you and I are both aware it's just as constant struggle between what is and what should be. >> That's right. And there is always -- there always is a tipping point. And the Fort Lauderdale massacre might have been the tipping point to change some of the gun laws in our country. But only if the people continue to press for more strict gun laws. And that does not mean taking away people's guns. It just means there has to be responsible legislation. >> Sure. And so just to keep us on track here, I want to ask a little bit about SDS and Yippee activity on campus during your time here. I'm assuming you're familiar with both of those. I think it's for Students for a Democratic Society, and the Yippees. >> I have to be honest with you, I used to know what SDS was involved in. I have forgotten. And as far as Yippees, it's something I was never involved in and never really understood. >> Yeah. We had to read a really good book for this class by Mark Curlanski called 1968: The Year that Rocked the World. And it was a really, really great book. It just covered everything that was going on in the United States, but not just the United States. Everywhere else too. Czechoslovakia, the Soviet Union, Germany, Africa, France, China, everywhere. I mean, I recommend it to you too. It would probably be a really good look back on the history that you experienced from a different perspective. But anyway, they talked a lot about SDS and the Yippees. And I kind of got the same feeling from the Yippees that it seems you did. I couldn't quite figure out what the purpose of the organization was and what it was they were really trying to do. Because they really did fuel a lot of activism and a lot of change, much of it positive. But they never really seemed to be message-specific. Does that make sense? >> Were the Yippees peace and make love, not war -- were those the Yippees? Or were those the hippies? >> I was about to say yeah, that was the Yippees, until you added the hippies back in there. So now I'm a bit confused. I think the Yippees were definitely more political than the hippies, from what I could gather. Hippie was more lifestyle. >> Yeah, that's correct. >> And Yippee was a political movement. >> Yes. >> And I think you're right. I think they were the ones that coined, "Make love, not war." >> I think so. >> They did a lot of other -- I remember during the 1968 election, they wanted to nominate a pig. I think he was Mr. or Sir Pigasus for president. And there was a big scandal that went along with that. I don't know if you remember that. >> No. >> Speaking of the '68 election, do you have any recollections of really anything that was going on in the election process? Maybe the 1968 Democratic Convention? Oh, also Bobby Kennedy's assassination. That's important to this. So Bobby Kennedy as well as maybe the difference between him and Eugene McCarthy and what the Democratic candidates brought to the table. >> I was not very political back then. And from 1966 to 1970 I was in Germany. And so when the assassinations occurred and the riots occurred, I only knew what I saw on television. And I was thousands of miles away. So yeah, I just was not a political person back then. >> Okay. So it wasn't really on your radar at the time? >> It really was not. >> That's understandable. But do you recall the several assassinations and having any certain feelings about that? Maybe you answered that about Bobby Kennedy. Because you weren't political, it didn't necessarily mean as much to you. But what about the assassination of Dr. Martin Luther King? >> I remember that as well, and I remember the riots that followed that. I probably remember that as much as I remember the assassination of John Kennedy. I was actually a freshman in a rotzy class at the time out in Wagner Building when Kennedy was shot, John Kennedy, in Dallas. And it was a TV class, and all the monitors went blank for a while. And then they came back on with live news about the assassination. And we were allowed to leave the class and just go. So yes, that I'll never forget. >> I cannot imagine how that must have felt. I'm sure it was comparable to the feelings had on September 11th. I was only four years old at the time, so I just barely, vaguely have any sort of recollection of it. But I'm sure that they were comparable situations. Maybe 9/11 was more so. I don't know. The president getting assassinated versus the United States being attacked -- they're both pretty far up there on how heavy of a situation they are. >> They both are, yes. Go ahead. >> Yeah. John F. Kennedy, he was a very well-loved president. And when he was assassinated, it was -- I would say it had a numbing effect on society in the short term. Walter Kronkite, you may have heard the name -- >> Of course. >> Was a well-respected TV reporter. And that's the channel we used to watch all the time. And he's the one that would do the nightly news stories on the Kennedy assassination. ^M01:30:16 And then 9/11, that was also numbing and chilling because you don't know what else is coming in the short term. Because I was in Washington when that happened, and the Pentagon got hit too. So yeah, and the world seems to have gone downhill rapidly since then. You know, today honestly I'm not an optimist when it comes to not having future wars. I don't know what's happening to worldwide society, but like I said, the '60's and '70's were idealistic, except for the Vietnam War. The world seems in much worse condition today than it was in the '60's and '70's. >> And in other ways, I find it interesting. I agree with your point. And in other ways, it seems almost silly some of the things domestically that we get upset about, compared to the total chaos and craziness that was going on in 1968 and around that time back then as well. Politically, socially, it's not that things now aren't just as serious in their own respect. But man, you didn't have the kinds of violence and vulgarity and aggressiveness -- now we don't -- that it seems that you had back in the late '60's, early '70's. Correct me if I'm wrong. >> Well, the big difference between then and now, the world was changing socially. The social fabric of the world was changing so quickly in the '60's and '70's that a lot of people adopted a live and let live philosophy. That was the mood of the time. Today, society is in two basic camps: a Democratic camp and a Republican camp. And I know lots of people today that won't talk to each other they disagree with them. And I think that's a tragedy. I don't know how we ever got to this point. >> Well, I would hazard to venture a guess, but I am right there with you, Bruce, in that respect. And only since you said it, I will admit that it seems like you and I for the most part, you're more left-leaning views and I personally identify more with right-leaning views, and here we are having a fantastic conversation. And we even got into a little bit of discussion about some of the current political debates that are going on right now. And we treat each other like civil human beings and it's just crazy to think that other people -- you know what I mean? It's crazy that we've gotten, like you said, so far away from treating each other like human beings. >> Yeah, I don't get it. I'm just curious, is it that way on campus? >> Well -- >> Does the left ignore the right and vice versa? >> You experience a little bit of it here and there, and there certainly is hostility among students. But I'm actually glad you asked that because I have been so, so impressed and I feel so blessed by the education that I've gotten. The professors are -- like I was saying earlier, they are so objective in how they approach things. >> Yes. >> And there's no -- I mean, it's a college campus and a college administration. So you can certainly see that it might be a little bit more left-leaning. And there's examples of it, and you can see it. But it's not like there are people afraid to voice their opinions if they are more conservative or libertarian. Or if some people are far left, like communist, whatever, I mean it's just all about the free expression of ideas. They even have a poster that they have up in the liberal arts building, the liberal arts college right now, that says -- it goes through the list of things. It says -- what does it say? You know, "LGBTQ students, you should always feel safe here. Muslim students, you are always welcome here. Women students, you should always feel empowered." But the thing I think is interesting, it even says, "Conservative students, your opinions are valued here." And so far I haven't experienced that that is a lie, personally. >> Are you saying conservative opinions are not received well? >> No, I'm saying that they are. >> Good, yeah. >> I'm saying that on the poster that they have, the school printed up there, when it says, "Conservative students, your opinions are valued as well," that that is actually true. >> Good. >> And comparing it to other universities where there is such hostility between the two groups and such ridiculous things that you read about going on, we don't have that here, I can assure you. >> Well, that's good to hear. >> Yeah. You can tell that's something I'm passionate about. >> That's good. >> I'm really -- well, I think you and I align on this and agree. We've gotten too far away from treating each other as human beings with civility and loving one another, regardless of our opinions. >> Exactly. >> Well, Bruce, I'm glad to hear all of that that you just said. And so far this has been an extremely stimulating conversation. We're beginning to run out of time, I'm sorry to say. So I'm just looking through to see if I have any other really important or noteworthy questions that I want to ask you. Do you have anything else, while I'm looking, that you think is important to add or that you really want to talk about? >> Well, not really, other than to say that I'm honored to be part of this oral history. And I'm actually very glad I was on campus back in some very interesting times, nonthreatening times, except for the Vietnam issue. But beyond that, I have a deep affinity and love for Penn State and Penn State students, faculty and staff and alumni. I've volunteered my services to the university for a long time because more than not, I agree with what they're doing at the university. I'm very proud of Penn State students when I read about all the great things they are doing today that would never have been possible back when I was a student. And a lot of it has to do with the funding that's now available so students can travel abroad, experience other cultures. That's just one example. Or participate in some very high-level courses and research at the university, even as undergraduates. So I'm just very happy to talk to you, Chris, and get to know you, limited though it is. Because you are a Penn State student. You're obviously very bright and articulate. And I'm glad to know that future generations of Penn Staters -- I hope you will agree with this -- will help ensure that once students graduate and become alum, they'll continue to support their university so that future generations can also be proud of their future as Penn Staters and that of their ch

Interview by Kylie Doran

>> Now.  All right. >> OK. >> OK.  Did you get my email?  I sent you something like, I don't know if the Penn State people sent this to you, some kind to participant agreement? >> I don't know that I got it or if I did a while ago, I would have sent it back. >> OK.  All right.  Well, I sent them-- I sent it into you in the email like only like half an hour ago probably. >> Oh.  I don't know if I've gotten that, let me look. >> Oh, OK. >> Oh, OK.  Just-- I have just wanted to confirm that you'll be free today.  We aren't-- That's an earlier one, isn't it? >> Yeah. >> I'm attaching the form, here it is. >> Oh, OK. >> And I will be glad to sign this. >> OK, awesome.  It-- >> And what do I-- how do I do that?  I don't see anything.  I volunteer, copyright, right? >> There's no like place for you to sign. >> I place no restriction on access to you, so this information I read and agreed and blah, blah, blah.  I mean, I can try-- no.  I-- No, there's no place to sign. >> OK.  I guess it's fine if you just-- >> I can orally say I agree? >> You like that.  Like you don't have any questions about it or anything? >> No. >> OK.  Just-- I just had to like get that out of the way.  So, so yeah, I have a bunch of questions here to ask you and so those are just given by the class and then some of them I think are kind of like more interesting.  So I guess I'll try and start with the ones-- the more basic ones, and then we can go to the-- >> Sure. >> -- more specific ones.  And we have like an hour that we can chat, so hopefully, we can get through all of them. >> OK.  So what years did you attend Penn State? >> From '63 to '67. >> OK.  So you graduated in '67? >> Yes. >> OK.  Why did you choose Penn State for your university education? >> It was the only school I even applied to.  I-- It was really different back then.  My dad was in the Air Force, I had gone to high school in Germany.  I just came back to the states for my senior year. I went up to Penn State for a football game and it looked like what college was supposed to be, and I applied to Penn State, period. >> Nice. >> But-- >> Your dad was stationed in Germany in the Air Force? >> Yes. >> My dad was also, that's so funny. >> Oh really?  Where were you or what did you-- >> You know, so my parents lived in like Kaiserslautern for-- >> That's where I lived. >> Oh my gosh, that's so funny. >> Yes.  I went to Kaiserslautern American High School, K-Town. >> Yeah, that's-- K-Town, that's what they said, but they moved to Nebraska before I was born so I never actually got to live in Germany unfortunately. >> Oh, OK. >> Yeah. >> It was great place to go to high school.  It's really fun.  It was a very small school.  I loved it. >> Oh cool. >> But that was another thing, transferring my grades, because I had gone to a school that Penn State obviously had never heard of.  All my grades got transferred as C's. >> Oh. >> So, I did well my last year and I did well on my SATs so they accepted me, telling me basically that I would flunk out. >> Oh my gosh. >> However, I didn't. >> Yeah. >> Did your parents always kind of like expect or want you to go to university or was that just kind of something that you decided you're going to do? >> That's interesting.  I loved school.  And when I was a senior, my father said to me, "Are you thinking about going to college?"  And I said, "I'd love to keep going to school."  And he said, "Well then, you need to take the SATs."  So I took the SATs for the first and only time in the fall of my senior year in high school.  It was really so different then, like when-- I'm old enough to be your grandmother obviously, and my daughter, when she went-- I mean, it was-- there was such pressure on applying to 10 schools and taking the SATs and taking, you know, what do you call them, like cram classes for them and all this, but we didn't do any of that. >> The whole time? >> So, it was really different but I loved school and I-- it was-- I went and both of my daughters went, so I guess it was sort of expected but I don't-- we never talked about it.  It was not like as a freshman in high school, somebody saying, "No, you know, you need to study because--" you know, we never got any of that. >> Right. >> Do you think like most of your friends also went to college like because they like school or did a lot of them not go to college?  Like was it-- Do you think you were kind of the norm? >> Yeah.  I-- My senior year when I came back to the states, I went to a Catholic school, Bishop Egan in Levittown. >> Oh yeah. >> And everybody there was college-bound.  A matter of fact, I think four kids in my class had 1600s on their SATs.  It was definitely very academic and everybody, it was-- everybody went. >> OK.  OK.  So what was your major when you were at Penn State? >> Well, I switched a bunch of times.  I started in physics and switched to German because I wanted to be in Liberal Arts College and figured I could get by with enough German till I figured out what I wanted to do. >> Yeah. >> And I ended up getting a BS in Psychology but had more credits in history. >> OK.  Why did you decide physics when you first started? >> I thought I wanted to be a nuclear physicist in Penn State and have a reactor. >> Yeah?  Oh my gosh.  Do you think like-- So what kind of urged you to switch to Liberal Arts?  Like why did you want to be part of the Liberal Arts College? >> Well, because I liked-- there were so many-- the science program was so restrictive and it was so programmed and there were so many labs and there was no time to read or like sort of broaden your horizons.  And I wanted a much more general Liberal Arts kind of education.  So, I knew I wanted to switch to Liberal Arts. >> OK.  Did you ever use your German after you graduated? >> Not really, no. >> OK.  What about like psychology, did you kind of pursue that like throughout your career or did you kind of switch career paths? >> [Laughs]  I worked first in a psychiatrist office for a year or so.  Well, when I first-- my first job I got after college-- OK, it's very complicated.  My parents moved to California.  I went to California after I graduated and applied for a job as a juvenile probation officer.  So I had to take civil service exams.  And while I was doing that, I was substitute teaching.  And then my husband, who I had been dating my senior year, came out, we got engaged and I moved back to Pennsylvania.  And then I worked at a publishing company, editing books.  And then I worked for a psychiatrist.  And then I got pregnant and I stopped working. >> OK. >> So, well, I worked until I was like nine months pregnant and then I stopped working.  And I didn't do anything until about 10 years later, I went to Law School and then I practiced law. >> Oh, wow. >> Yeah, all over the place. >> Yeah.  That's interesting. >> Do you think there was one particular course or professor that had a lasting impression on your studies or on your life? >> Because most of my classes were huge, I didn't really ever have a particular relationship with the professor, the two professors who made-- or teachers who made the biggest impact on me were high school teachers.  One was a math teacher and the other was a history teacher.  And the history teacher, because we were in Germany, he had a PhD in history and he taught my American history class and he was phenomenal, and my real passion is history and politics.  So-- But nobody-- I don't think I ever talked to a professor out of class in the four years I was at Penn State. >> That's so funny. >> Do you think most people were kind of the same, like where most of the class is really big?  Was it-- >> Yes.  And that was another part of the problem with physics.  I was in an advanced calculus class and there were 400 people or something in the class and then you would have like a graduate assistant once a week that you could ask questions as well. ^M00:10:01 I never knew what was going on, and I hated it.  I mean I was-- most of my classes except for some history classes I took and a couple religion, like comparative religion courses, were-- those were the only two courses that were really small.  Even my 400-level psych classes had over a hundred people in them. >> Oh my gosh.  That sounds so fun. >> Yeah.  Well, it was just very impersonal, you know? >> Yeah. >> But I would take weird history courses like ancient Roman history and that would be like 35 people and I love those classes. >> So, those were like your smallest classes, around 35 people? >> Yeah. >> Even your German classes had a lot of people? >> Well, I only took German for-- I think I was a German major for two-- we were on the trimester where we had three 10-week semesters.  So I think I only was in-- had German as a major for two trimesters.  So I really only took two classes and they were-- I, you know, tested out of the beginning classes but they still were over a hundred people, yes. >> Wow. >> And you spent most of your time doing lab stuff-- >> Mm-hmm. >> -- and just being in the language lab. >> Yeah.  That makes sense. >> OK.  So you said you were really interested in like history and politics.  Where did you get and obtain your news about like politics like global news and stuff like that?  Like what was your main news source? >> When we were at Penn State, they-- Happy Valley was the totally appropriate term, the joke was they could a drop a bomb on New York and we wouldn't know about it for months.  Nobody, nobody-- Like I was in the sorority, I don't think anybody was aware of what was going on in the world.  Towards the end, like my senior year with the Vietnam War, things started to-- I mean what I remember about the Vietnam War was in the hub, they would have tables set up so we could sign Christmas cards to send to the soldiers.  But I-- It was sort of before the real demonstrations began, I became much more politically active and involved after I graduated.  And, you know, with just the women's issue, the equal rights amendment, the Civil Rights Act, I started reading, you know, Betty Friedan and Simone de Beauvoir and-- >> Yeah. >> -- just got, you know, Gloria Steinem, that sort of thing, I was much more into the women's movement and then the Civil War, I mean, the Civil Rights, you know, the assassinations of Martin Luther King and Bobby Kennedy and John Kennedy was killed in the fall of my freshman year.  And it was like unreal.  I mean it was like you couldn't actually believe that anything like that could happen.  I mean it just was unreal.  And I guess the closest thing you would think of now would be like 9/11. >> Right. >> The way everybody react then, that was sort of what the Kennedy assassination was like, and then Martin Luther King and then Bobby Kennedy, and it was just like what is happening in this country?  And I think that's-- all of those things just sort of got me to be much more politically active.  I became a committee woman and marched but I haven't marched much until this year.  And I've been in like 10 marches since the election. >> Oh my gosh. >> Oh god, it's driving me crazy.  I can't even look at the news anymore.  It's giving me an ulcer. >> Yeah, I can relate, totally.  I was going to ask you about what's your opinion about some of the recent like protests and things that are happening now and like how do you think this compares to a lot of the protests that were happening in the '60s?  Like do you see any parallels and do you think you're more involved like now than you were then? >> I am more involved now than I was then.  I think they're great parallels.  I think they're amazing parallels.  The-- I think one of the things that's really struck me recently were the kids in Florida protesting, and young people finally saying, "We've had enough with this gun and when are you adults going to protect us?"  I-- That to me was more like the anti-Vietnam War things, where the young people were the ones who finally said, enough of this.  The Women's March, I thought was-- I was-- I've lived in Pennsylvania but we have a house in Colorado and we come out here every winter and ski and I was out here last year when the Women's March was on.  So I went down to Denver and marched there and it was the most amazing feeling to see-- to be with other people that I knew felt the way I did, and that they were willing to stand up and say, you know, this is bad and we have to speak up.  And I think that was very much the '60s.  I think different colleges like Berkeley or some place like that, the-- there was much more student activism and I-- you know, the years are foggy for me.  But I know, you know, I remember students taking over buildings and the SDS, friend, you know, but I think that was, you know, year-- a couple of years after me, you know, they were kids that were in college the next four years.  I ended up working on the McGovern campaigns.  I, you know, I never liked Lyndon Johnson just because he was so different from Kennedy and he just seemed so crude.  But he got the Civil Rights Act passed, you know?  It was just-- I really think I was in college probably four years before it really got to a point where students were standing up and demonstrating.  Still, few people were going to Vietnam and then you had-- you know, they were all being deferred.  Once it got to a lottery where it was a crapshoot and anybody could go, I think students got much more vocal about their just not liking and not understanding why we were in this war. >> Mm-hmm.  Do you-- Were you kind of surprised at how big and widespread something like the Women's March was? >> I was thrilled.  Surprised, yes because I think Americans have gotten to the point-- like I look at my daughter who's in her 40s and she's totally apolitical because her comment is "Oh, none of this is ever going to change," you know, it's going to be-- I mean I think Trump may be an awakening for her but it was like, they're never going to say you can't have an abortion.  They're never going to say-- you know, they're never going to not let people vote.  And I'm going, you've got your head in the sand.  I mean this is-- You know, I just-- I've read a couple books about just-- like "The New Jim Crow", I don't know if you read it.  Pardon me? >> I've heard of it.  I haven't actually read it.  It's on my list now though. >> It is the most depressing, amazing book talking about the way black-- particularly black men are incarcerated at a rate just so out of proportion to first of all what they've done and secondly, just what happens to them and how it completely ruins their whole social structure.  They can't-- If they're on-- If they're in public housing with their families, they can't live there, so they never can go back and be with their kids and their wife.  They-- You know, they have so many charges in many states that can't get a job and it's just-- it's insidious.  I mean I don't know, I've just been lately reading a lot of things about how blacks are still treated in this country.  And it's like, how can we be going backwards? >> Right. >> But, you know, anyway, it just-- I just feel like I must write to my senators five times a day. >> Yeah. >> I think they've learned to ignore me.  But, yeah, I just feel like all you can do is-- I give more money to environmental causes now than I used to, I give more money to planned parenthood, I give more money to politicians, I mean, like you get asked to just give money to support, you know, I get them for Democrats anywhere and I think, you know, I'm going to give money to people I can vote for, not for-- not to, you know, yes, I would like to change what's going on in the Senate and the House but people and-- ^M00:20:00 I feel the people in the states where these people are running should be the people who are paying.  Now I realized that all the money in politics now is a joke but-- >> Yeah. >> So, I'm supporting Casey and I'm supporting a woman who's running, Chrissy Houlahan, who's running in my district.  I'm working with Fair Districts PA to try to give the Pennsylvania legislature to change the way districts are drawn and to do a constitutional amendment basically to rewrite and have an independent committee, a nonpartisan independent committee actually draw the maps.  It will be interesting.  But it's-- we only need one more person in the House to have a majority, so it really might pass.  I mean we're working on that but-- >> Yeah-- >> So I'm just being as politically active as I can be. >> Yeah.  Do you think your political activism has kind of increased as you've gotten older?  And like do you think it's a kind of a generational difference?  You were talking about your daughter and how she might kind of take it for granted that things will always be this way.  Do you think because you lived through such a tumultuous time in the '60s, do you think that's one of the reasons why you kind of become more politically active? >> Yes, I do.  I think in the '60s like right after I graduated for college, I was writing white papers for candidates who were running for the Pennsylvania Congress of the Pennsylvania House.  And I was working on a couple of campaigns, then I became a committeewoman.  And then we moved from our first house to another house and I was left politically active then because my daughter was in school and I was involved with her school and volunteering there and I was on a couple of not-for-profit boards.  So, that sort of ended up being what I was doing and then late, I got off my last board about four years ago.  Well, I'm on a board of Penn State but I got off the last not-for-profit board that I was on in my community.  And then with this full action, it was like, OK, we-- the people have got to start standing up and writing letters and demonstrating and arguing and doing what they can to fix this. >> Right.  Do you think-- Like you were talking about your concern with environmental causes, like women's rights, racial equality, and a bunch of-- like you talked about gun control, do you think that all of these were interests that you had when you were still at Penn State or did they develop like at Penn State or afterwards? >> I think afterwards.  I was-- I literally was at Penn State and was involved in a sorority.  I was going to classes, it was like a bubble, it was like a cocoon.  It was so-- I think-- Well, first of all, I think the Liberal Arts College is so much better now than when I was there.  I think Susan Welch, she's just-- has been amazing things for that college.  And the professors that she's brought in and the whole Paterno Fellow thing, I am-- I think that's just incredible.  And the kids that-- There are so many more interesting ways to study.  like I would go to a class, I had my text or if depending on the course, whatever, you know, I read it.  I took my test, move on, you know, must be involved with now just lectures and this kind of thing.  It's so much more intellectually stimulating and I just-- I really would love to go back to college. >> Yeah. >> It's just-- I don't know.  I've been lucky I've had so much free time in my life that I could read and I've always been a reader.  And like after 9/11, we would watch football game-- a Super Bowl game at somebody's house and the women were in the kitchen talking and we decided we knew nothing about the Middle East.  So we formed a book group and for two-and-a-half years every month, we read a book about the Middle East.  And then we moved on to-- we sort of had the Middle East up to our eyebrows and then we moved to religion and we were doing comparative religion, and then we went to early American history, and then the Second World War and, you know, we've just-- it wasn't-- we've been reading books about the black experience in America lately.  It's just in this absolute-- and we have been doing this since 2002. >> Wow. >> And we read the book a month and it's been like an education.  And it's the kind of thing-- I remember when I first got out of college and I had Brook and I was home and I had all this time because she slept 18 hours a day.  I would start-- I was reading philosophy and then it was like I really-- I would read something and I think, darn, I wish I had read that book before I read this book.  And it was like I wanted a professor to say, here's how you read them, you know, this is the order you want to approach this from.  And, you know, so I have always missed school and I took history courses in colleges around Philadelphia just for fun. >> Yeah. >> But it-- I don't know, I think-- I just think you guys are so lucky.  And I'm so proud of Penn State for becoming what it's become.  I think it's a hundred times better college than it was when I was there, which is great. >> Mm-hmm.  Yeah.  I have a question.  How do you think like the Penn State community has kind of stayed with you throughout your life?  Have you always kind of felt that you were a proud Penn Stater ever since you graduated?  Have you still kind of been in touch with the community?  It sounds like you kind of have. >> I think I've become prouder more in the last, say, 20 years.  When I graduated, you know, we went back to Philadelphia and the people I was hanging out with-- like my husband grew up in the Philadelphia area and, you know, one guy went to Brown, one went to Harvard, one went to Williams, you know, the women went to the sister colleges, then it was like, OK, I went to Penn State.  And I really felt like that was sort of embarrassing.  I don't feel that way at all anymore.  And I've realized people go to schools and it's-- they're not necessarily smarter and it was-- Now, I'm very proud of Penn State and we-- everything we own has Penn State on it somewhere.  And I think I became more involved like actually contributing to the school.  And we have a Paterno Fellowship-- Scholarship and we've done some other contributions for the college but it was after the whole big Sandusky thing, and we had-- My husband was in the business school there and he-- we had two scholarships there.  And one of them was just our scholarship and the other was a trustee scholarship.  And I got a call from the guy who was-- he's no longer at Penn State though.  He was the development guy for the business school in the Liberal Arts College and he called because I had sent emails to the university.  I sent an email to the board, telling them I couldn't believe the way they had treated Paterno.  And I wrote to-- an email to the business school, saying I did not want my name or our name on a scholarship that said trustees, and I wrote an email to the Board of Trustees, telling them I thought they were discussing.  And I got a call from Mark and he came down to meet me and we talked about it and he said, you know, we'll do whatever you want, but the trustee scholarship makes more money for students and you're not hurting the Board of Trustees, you're hurting the students if you-- which was-- so I said OK.  And then I said, well then, I want to give money to the Liberal Arts College in Joe's memory. >> OK.  I would actually ask you about like kind of what the whole football experience was like.  I read your little bio that you provided and you talked about going to football games.  I was also going to ask you kind of the, well, I guess your opinion of the Sandusky scandal and like kind of how Penn State has recovered since then.  So, how do you think like Penn State's football and I guess Penn State in general has kind of handled like before, during, and after the scandal? ^M00:30:09 >> I wasn't really happy with the way it was handled.  I couldn't believe Paterno was fired on the phone. >> Yeah. >> I think that was a thing that really got me.  I still can get weepy talking about it, because he was so much more than a football coach.  He really-- I just think the way he was slandered and that people could believe that a man who would do everything he could to turn college kids into citizens and fathers and respectable human beings would-- people would believe that he was complicit in child abuse.  I-- It just really upsets me.  And the football building, we went back for football games because it was a way to get back to see your friends who didn't live near us.  A matter of fact, we still go back for two games a year and one couple was in Florida and the other couple was in Michigan.  And we go to two games a years so we can see each other.  It was-- I, you know, I think Paterno did-- well, first of all, Paterno did what the NCAA came out and said people should do.  He reported it to his higher-ups and it should have been taken care of, the fact that there had been rumors and that nothing was done was ridiculous.  I mean how they thought it was going to be-- disappear, I don't know.  I think it was handled very badly by the administration.  The thing that's fascinating is the only case that Sandusky was found not guilty on was that case.  So, you know, the money the university spent, I think they got to the point where they were paying anybody that said anything just to get them to go away.  As far as football goes, I went to football games because football games were fun, not because-- and because I've met Joe Paterno a couple times and he was just the most amazing man.  I don't-- You probably-- He was probably dead before you got there.  He-- We were in Nassau on a business trip one time and we were walking in an airport to size of a, you know, a big living room.  And I said-- I go, "Is that Joe Paterno sitting at that table?"  And he goes, "No."  And I said, "I'm sure that's Joe Paterno."  So he goes there and talks to him, comes back, yes, it's Joe Paterno.  We were in the waiting-- in the lobby kind of thing, he was there and there was an older woman with a little girl and she had paper bags with handles that she was-- had her clothes and stuff in.  So we're going to get on this little puddle-jumper plane.  And Paterno goes over and carries her bags for her, helps the little girl up the steps onto the plane, and comes back to us after they've taken off and he wanted to know when we graduated, how Penn State was, blah, blah, blah.  He had just sent the team off, they had one-- it was in '86, they had won the national championship and they were going on a cruise somewhere and he was going home.  And then I met him again at a fundraiser for Special Olympics and we bid on his box, and we bid-- you get the box if you bid this amount and somebody put down another price afterwards so he came up to me afterwards and said, "They shouldn't have allowed that to happen."  And that couples have paid more picked this weekend, you can come to any other, you know, any other home game you want to come to.  So it was just like, he just was a special person and I am-- I was very upset with the university.  Since then, the football team is fine and Franklin is doing a good job.  I really liked-- I'm not even going to remember his name, the coach that came in who is now the coach of the Houston-- >> Oh, O'Brien. >> Yeah, O'Brien.  I thought he was amazing.  I thought that team that stayed was amazing.  And I think that's when I started to realize that Paterno had created an environment that allowed these young men to stand up for what was right.  And I was really sorry to see him go.  I understand why he went but-- And I think Franklin is fine and he's doing a good job and the football team is doing well.  And it never to me was about winning, it was about what he stood for.  Sandusky, I think, is a scumbag and I can't believe he's still appealing crap.  I'm-- You know, he's sick.  The whole idea that he started The Second Mile and used it to throw over kids he could abuse makes me nauseous.  But I think it's-- I think most people are beyond that.  I don't-- I think there are lot of people who think badly of Penn State as a result of the scandal.  But there are enough scandals popping up everywhere now to sort of go around. >> Well-- >> I mean Michigan State, it was that doctor. >> Yeah, yeah, exactly. >> So, right, there's always going to be ugly.  I was just sad that Paterno got slandered through it. >> Yeah. >> But Sandusky going to prison was perfect but-- >> Right. >> -- you know, whatever. >> Mm-hmm.  I mean speaking of scandals, I also wanted to ask you about Greek life.  So I know you said you're in a sorority when you were in college and I want to hear about kind of what Greek life was like back then versus kind of what you think about what Greek life's-- everything that's happening right now, if you could, well, share everything and-- >> Well, I've been following because my husband is an alum who's in charge of the House Corporation for Phi Gamma Delta, so we definitely hear about everything that's going on.  It's very different.  When we were there, first of all, girls had curfews and had to be in the dorm by 11:30 and I think two weekends or three weekends a year, there was a 2 o'clock.  There were no coed dorms.  The sororities all lived together like if you were in a sorority and you had 80 girls, you had a floor-and-a-half in the dorm. >> Mm-hmm. >> The fraternity, he went to a fraternity social, there was beer on tap, that's all that was ever there.  There was never hard liquor.  It was just beer.  We noticed the change as we were going back that kids started-- they got rid of kegs for some reason so kids were buying cases and they'd sit there with dates when we would go to the house and see how fast they could get through a case of beer, and it was like, this is disgusting.  I mean we used to dance and play games and, you know, it was much more social, not just drink to get drunk kind of stuff. >> Yeah. >> I mean people certainly got drunk but it was never-- that was never like the object just to get drunk. >> Yeah. >> And now, there's so much alcohol and drugs.  And when we were there, marijuana, nobody had been exposed to marijuana.  My senior year, a couple kids who had gone to the University of the Americas in Mexico came back with pot.  And I think that was one time at one party where somebody had pot.  So it was really, really different.  Girls weren't allowed to live off campus.  It was just much-- It was fun and it was safe and it was Happy Valley. >> Yeah, [inaudible].  Do you think-- Like what do you kind of think would be the solution to all of the scandal and issues with Greek life that are happening right now?  Like you talked about different restrictions that were in place, like do you think any of those would be helpful now?  Well, there were also health mothers.  There were older, you know, middle-aged, older women who lived in the fraternity houses. ^M00:40:03 So, you didn't have all these-- I mean I don't know how much sex goes on but girls are upstairs in the guys' bedrooms, you were never allowed up on the second floor.  It was just-- It was-- The university was being charged with being a parent and they wanted to get rid of that in loco parentis thing because they became liable for all these things that were happening.  So they started saying, OK, these are young adults, they're-- you know, they're of age and they let them go.  And I just think there's a whole-- Well, first of all, I think what they've done with the sororities is going to kill the sororities because you get one floor in a dorm, 30 girls can live there.  I think Theta has a hundred and some girls now, the rest of them live wherever but not together. >> Yeah. >> To have-- We had a suite where we would have our meetings.  Now, there's a big empty room that you can put up chairs and have your meetings when you schedule it with the other sororities that are in the building.  I went back a couple years ago with my big sister's class when they were there for their 50th and we went down and looked at the beta suite and we said, this is horrible, this is not a sorority, you know, there's no way you form bonds when you don't even live together.  The fraternities, I really like watching things that have happened to the Phi Gamma house which is-- I don't know what it is now, it was one of the better houses when we were there.  The kids are totally irresponsible, I mean we go up there and their light bulb's out, it's like you guys can't change a light bulb, you know?  They went through a thing in the '80s where the house literally got destroyed by people knocking holes in walls and just not taking care of anything.  And now, they say it's hazing to have the pledges clean the house, so they can't be required to help clean unless the brothers do it too and it's like, how is that hazing to clean a house?  You know, it's hazing to get people drunk and, you know, have this beta die on the floor, but to clean a house?  That sounds to me like, take care of your house at home, I would assume.  I just think people-- parents-- too many of these kids are just from families where there's never been any requirement to be responsible.  I-- My daughter is a coach at the local high school, and these kids, what they do and the parents-- if they get in trouble with parents, just get them out of it instead of letting them suffer any other consequences for what they do.  And I think it's horrible.  How you fix the Greek system, I don't know but I'd hate to see it go, I mean, I think when I was there, it was a wonderful way to have a group to make the school smaller.  And this-- it was 20 or 22,000, 5,000, 25,000 something students when I was there and there's like 40 now.  So, I was up there last year when classes were changing and I was near the hub and it was like, oh my god, this is like being in a New York subway.  I don't know how you find a group to make you feel like you belong to something when it's that big.  And I thought fraternities and sororities did that and I thought they did it in a constructive positive way.  I mean I remember when I was there, I got yelled at for going to clean the suite in blue jeans one time because Staters didn't wear jeans.  And it was like, I'm supposed to come in a ball gown to clean the suite?  I mean, I'm dusting and vacuuming, right.  But there was-- the offices and the older sisters were like our mothers.  I mean, you know, they were keeping people in line.  You behave a certain way because you represented a group and that's gone.  I mean that's completely gone.  There's no leadership.  There's no-- I mean the whole society has changed.  The things that kids see or know now as little kids are things that I was completely obviously of until I was in high school or college, you know?  It's just like I remember having-- I was in 8th grade and having a nun have a fit because Perry Como had the Rockathon and they were kicking their legs up and had on shirt skirts and I'm thinking, oh my god, they must be rolling over in their graves for what's on TV now. >> Yeah. >> It's just a different world.  It was so much more innocent. >> Yeah. >> And it was so much more carefree.  It's almost like too much ugly that everybody's exposed to and I don't know how you protect children from that but it's sad. >> Yeah.  In your biography, you said that your time at Penn State was kind of a time of happiness and innocence.  Do you think that's still the case in 2018 and do you think it should still be that way? >> I think it would be a lot better if it were.  Do I think it is?  No.  I mean, you know, all the stuff about rape and, you know, just total alcoholism as far as I'm concerned, it's-- and almost a-- I can do anything because I can get out of it kind of attitude and I'm not sure that's at all just Penn State.  I really think it's more of this generation which is why I was so heartened by the young high school kids in Florida finally standing up and saying, would somebody do something about this mess?  And so maybe I'm generalizing.  And I think part of it is with social media, you see everything anywhere immediately.  When I was growing up, you know, everybody watched the same three TV channels.  The news, you didn't hear about a rape or kidnapping in Kansas if you lived in Pennsylvania.  Now, every ugly thing that happens is right out there in everybody's face, so it gets to the point where you feel like that's normal.  And I remember them talking about in the Vietnam War when-- where they were showing all the body counts and they said, it gets to the point where you don't even react because it's what you see every day.  So it becomes the norm.  So, you know, 5,000 people were killed, yeah, you know?  And it's not real.  Somehow, it-- Like I remember watching on TV when the towers came down and it was like watching "The Towering Inferno".  I saw it and I thought, this is some stupid movie that's on TV, you know?  I couldn't-- But it becomes-- I just think you become hardened to ugly things when that's all you hear and see.  And I think it's sad that your generation have had so much of that.  We just didn't have that.  I mean we really were, you know, [inaudible] lately, I mean it was-- everything was easier, much, much easier.  And I guess I think that's why I feel like I have to stand up and fight against things that I think are ugly. >> Yeah, that makes sense.  You say in your bio that your time at Penn State was about being exposed to new ideas.  Do you remember like specifically what new ideas you were expose to in college? >> Well, lots of things.  I ended up taking art history courses, I knew nothing about art, and I loved it, and went to Europe after I graduated with an art history major who-- I did the history and she did the art.  So, different religions, I remember taking a religion course on Hinduism, I didn't know anything about that.  It was an easy time to just anything that looked weird or different or interesting you could do.  And it just made me much more intellectually curious. >> Right.  And that's something that you think you kind of carried with you during-- >> Oh yes, definitely. >> And you also said that your time at Penn State was about forming lifelong friendships.  Do you think that there are a lot of people from Penn State that you still consider your good friends? >> Oh, absolutely.  Remember the two couples that we talked about, but I have a friend who lives in California and I email her all the time.  There are a bunch of old sorority sisters who live in the Philadelphia area and we get together once a month on Mondays for lunch.  Yeah, and Bill has friends, that his best friend from college is one of the guys that we see when we go to football games. ^M00:50:05 And we've traveled with them and yeah, they were-- I made lifelong friendships that are very, very important to me. >> Right. >> Were most people that you met like through your sorority or were you involved with other like organizations on campus?  And how common was it for people really to be involved in organizations that were not Greek life but just other student organizations? >> I think it was rarer than it is now.  I met some really interesting young men when we were there last time and now-- neither of them were in a fraternity and they were in a million clubs and they were Lion's Paw guys.  We went up to Bell Tower in Old Main.  I think it's very different now.  And I think that any group that makes Penn State smaller so that you can form those friendships is a good thing.  And my-- A couple of my sorority sisters, one or two, were involved in the campus government stuff.  I was the pledge trainer, I was completely into Theta.  I am-- My friends were there, I partied with them, I do really take classes with anybody particularly but all my volunteer things-- like we had spring carnival which they don't do-- spring week which they don't do anymore, where we work with the fraternity and we have a thing in the fall, so we-- you know, like homecoming floats and stuff like that. >> Yeah. >> So that's what I did, you know?  It was that or I played a lot of bridge. >> OK.  Also, you mentioned that you liked The Beatles, like, do you still listen to them or has your husband [inaudible]? >> I-- My music taste has not changed.  It's really pitiful.  My daughter will go on and on about all these people and I'm like, "Who's that?  Who's that?  Who's that?"  She goes, "You can't not know who this is."  I said, "I have no idea who that is."  So yeah, after the '60s, I pretty much stopped music. >> Yeah.  Let's see.  One of my last questions is what is one suggestion that you would offer to current students at Penn State? >> Enjoy every minute of it.  It is the best four years of your life.  I mean I had jobs that I liked.  I am very happily married.  There-- You never will have as much free time.  You will never have as much ability to control what you do every day.  It is a gift.  It is a really gift.  And I would just hope that everybody up there knows how lucky they are and takes advantage of everything the university has to offer. >> Mm-hmm.  All right, is there anything else you want to add just about your Penn State experience or anything in general? >> No, I think I blabbered all along-- >> It was really interesting actually, like everything you're saying.  Are you-- >> So what are you doing?  What's this course?  What is this course? >> Oh it's-- So it's "A History of 1968", like is kind of the title of it and it's just-- >> OK.  I just watched the thing-- somebody just sent me a link to the meeting with the head of the History Department and the assistant dean of the Liberal Arts College and the president talking about this class, the '68.  Yeah, so I-- That-- It's sort of fascinating. >> Yeah-- >> Are you in that class? >> Yeah, I'm in the class right now.  It's actually-- It's really, really cool because we don't really have many like traditional type of assignments, like we had to write a paper, we had to look at a 1968 like copy of "The Daily Collegian" like I mean "Daily--" >> Right. >> -- kind of like analyze some of the articles which is really interesting, I was reading about like protests to get the student bookstore on campus, which I had no idea that there was never not-- there was ever not a student bookstore on campus. >> Right.  It was down on College Avenue. >> Yeah, exactly.  We still have that one but now thankfully, there's one on campus too, so-- >> Oh, OK. >> And then, so every week, we have one day where different professors from different departments come in and they kind of talk about like whatever like region or topics that they are focused on and then how that kind of relates to 1968.  So, we've had different people every week.  And it's really interesting because I think-- I'm minoring history, so I have taken a bunch of different history classes but I think a lot of them usually focus on like Eastern or Western Europe or the United States so I never like knew too much about like what was going on in Africa like in '60s that-- that's like something that we learn about in class which is really cool. >> Oh that's fun.  Well, that's-- When I-- That was the course I took when I first got out of college was an African history course going over. >> Yeah that's-- >> Because I knew nothing about Africa. >> Yeah.  I think that's like one huge part of history that I feel like I've never really gotten to study. >> Well, it was-- And it's gotten so much more complicated even when I was doing it back in the '70s.  Every time you read it, they-- the country had a new name. >> Yeah.  Yeah, exactly.  That's what the history class is talking about, like the different, like ethic conflicts and how different countries are still trying to split off and stuff like it's very complicated. >> It is complicated.  But, well, I wish you lots of luck.  And what year are you? >> I'm a senior. >> Oh, OK.  You're almost out. >> I know, it's crazy.  Like the one you're talking about like enjoying it, I'm like that's all I want to do is just these next two months just soak in everything because I've got to go on to the real world I guess. >> Yeah.  Well, I remember, I could have graduated in December of my senior year and I switched from a BA to a BS so I had to take two more science courses so I could stay-- >> Yeah.  Got it-- >> -- because I never wanted to leave. >> Yeah, I have like two majors and two minors now.  I'm like adding things-- >> Oh goodness. >> And it's become all the science, so yeah, this is going to be my-- the end of my fourth year coming up, so. >> Well, I wish you luck.  Do you know what you want to do or where you want to go? >> I have like so many big like plans and dreams, I guess.  Like, so I'm double majoring in anthropology and Russian but I minored in-- >> Oh wow. >> So I have all these like languages that I've been studying and I think I want to do something with linguistic anthropology, like something about recovering dying languages.  So, it's something kind of really specific but-- >> Oh, that sounds like really interesting. >> Yeah.  I really want to go to-- look, so I've been writing my thesis right now for Paterno Fellows and I have been like doing all this research about indigenous groups in Siberia, like this is so interesting, like I really want to go to Siberia.  So I don't know what I'm going to do actually like directly after graduation.  I got accepted to Teach for America so I might to move to work on like a Native American reservation after graduation as a teacher.  I'm still like not sure.  I'm kind of figuring everything out. >> Well, it sounds fascinating.  I wish you luck. >> Thank you so much.  I really appreciate that you took the time to talk and have this interview. >> Well, I'm-- I was very happy to do it and you made it very easy and fun. >> Thank you so much. >> You're welcome. >> -- awesome like interesting things.  Everything that you were saying, it was like totally relatable.  Are you going to the march that-- on the 24th I think, march with guns-- >> I'm going to be in Colorado, so no.  There's-- I've been-- I can't tell you.  I-- After the Women's March, I've been on environmental marches, Marches for the Dreamers, Marches for Against the Tax Bill, I mean it's-- I have never marched so much in my whole life.  I've never given so many letters in my whole life and some calls.  So, you know, I don't-- sometimes I think it makes a difference but [inaudible] is just-- was just reelected and he's a nightmare.  But I'm hoping Casey wins the election.  But there are times like they're really targeting him, so we'll see. >> Yeah, definitely.  Keep your fingers crossed. >> Yeah, believe me, fingers, toes, everything. >> Yeah, exactly.  My mom is also one of those people who writes letters to [inaudible] like every single day. >> I know, he does-- And he sent one, he says, "Thank you so much."  And I've written back to him and said, "Don't thank me, you don't do anything I ask." >> Yeah, exactly.  Oh my gosh. >> -- letters, he drives me nuts.  Anyway, maybe I'm going to be up at school a couple times this-- I'm going to be up in April and again in May and so maybe I can run into you.  It would be fun. >> Yeah, that would be really cool.  I'd love to talk to you again and see how things are going. >> OK.  Well, good luck to you. >> Thank you so much. >> You're welcome.  Bye-bye. >> All right, have a good one. ^E01:00:05

Interview by Nichole Kanady

>> Okay.

>> So, my name is Nicole Kanady.  If you could state your name for the record, please.

>> Yes, Louise and my maiden name is Devoe [assumed spelling], last name is Piazza.

>> All right.  And just for the record we are recording right now.  And just to kick things off, what years did you attend Penn State?

>> I attended 1964 through 1968.

>> All right, so you graduated right, during?

>> I graduated right in the midst of '68, yeah.  Yeah.

>> Interesting time.  So, we were talking a little bit about this before, but why did you choose Penn State for your formal education?

>> Well, I had applied to Middlebury and got wait listed.  And I had applied to Syracuse, which seems to me was sort of like Penn State.  So, my dad had gotten his doctorate at Penn State, and my parents had gone up many times to take courses there.  And we just really liked the Corner Room, which was you know a hand out there.  And so, I think I just felt comfortable going there.  And my parents were both teachers, so they didn't have a lot of money, you know so there were some issues with that, too, with money.  Yeah.

>> The Corner Room is still a great place for many college students today.  I'll I love the Corner Room there.

>> Yeah, it was a really great place back in the day, and probably still is.  Yeah.

>> Yes, it still is.  So, what was your major at Penn State?

>> I started out thinking I was going to major in French, but I really didn't have the, you know, speed in the speaking skills, so I just decided to major in English with an education minor.  Which I did.  So, I had English and then education minor so I could teach.  And as I say, my parents were both teachers.  My father was an English teacher, my mother was a reading teacher.  So, it seemed natural for me to go into teaching English.

>> Yes.  Yes, those are all amazing courses, and I loved the education department at Penn State when I was formerly an education major.

>> Well, I must say, they were gut courses, they were very easy courses.  So, it was not a struggle to take those courses.  

>> Speaking of courses, was there a particular course, or a professor that just had an influence, or a lasting impression on your studies?

>> Well, a couple times I had to drop out of school, once my father died during my sophomore year.  I had to drop out then.  I had to make up summer work and various things to you know reach my, to graduate on time.  Which I did.  There were a couple of people.  One was an elderly lady who was my advisor.  And she really pulled strings for me to get back in.  And then I had an English teacher, also who was an advisor, who actually turned out to stalked me after I graduated.  But in those days there was nothing we could do about that kind of thing.  So, anyway, he did help me get back in and I guess, you know those two people probably were, my advisors, and so you know, they were the ones who helped me most, you know.

>> Yeah, it's amazing how advisors can have such and imprint on studies and just education over all.  So, in the course, history 1968, we looked at many news sources, such as "The Daily Collegian" from that time period.  And so, with that, where did you get, or where did you obtain your news.

>> Oh, now that's an interesting question.  I guess "Daily Collegian."  I must say, I wasn't terribly interested in the news at that time.  I was in a sorority and I was really busy with that.  And I was trying to find a husband and I didn't.  But you know so there was a lot of other stuff going on in my life.  So, I wasn't paying a whole lot of attention to the news.  I knew the groups like STS and you know campus groups that were agitating and protesting.  But I was never any part of that, so.  But I guess I don't know where I got my news.  Probably "The Daily Collegian."

>> What kind of music did you like or listen to/

>> Music?  Well I went to a lot of when we called jammies, which were fraternity parties.  I don't know why they were called jammies, but they were, and.

>> That's a great name for them.

>> Yeah, jammies.  So, you know a lot of inebriated people, and drunken parties, and various things.  I have some pictures of those.  So, music.  The Four Tops were big then, like "What Becomes of the Broken Hearted."  I particularly remember some of the songs were getting a little racy, like I don't know, "Louie Louie" and you know some songs were kind of on the edge of you know breaking with the norms.  So, some of those people you know like Joan Baez and people like that who were breaking things, breaking the codes.

>> Breaking barriers and boundaries.  So, what were your interests here at Penn State?  You talked a little bit about this before, but what were your particular interests throughout your time at college?

>> Well, once I got into the sorority, I had various jobs in the sorority.  And I was on a Panhellenic Camp Council and I used to go to Panhellenic Council meeting.  And then my best friend in my sorority was a music major and so I got involved with the chorus, you know the chorus.  I'm trying to think of what other things would have been interesting.  I mean, I studied pretty hard, you know.  I turned out, you know Magna Cum Laude and Phi Beta Kappa.  And so, probably my studies were, other than finding a husband, were my main goals.

>> That's always a good thing when your studies are part of the mix.

>> Yeah, and my friend and I pulled up the average of the sorority which was fairly low.  So, we helped sorority, the average of the sorority.

>> So, what do you believe is the most important skill you obtained during your time at Penn State?  You talked about your time in leadership in the Panhelli Council and how your studies were very important to you.  But I'm just curious, what important skills you obtained during your time at Penn State.

>> Well I have to say my student teaching, which was the spring semester.  We had trimesters then, so you know, I had ten-week trimesters.  I was student teaching which really got me proactive in teaching.  And also, I got a job in the area where I was student teaching.  So, I guess you'd have to say that the skills were important.  Yeah, I'm trying to think of anything else.  I must say I was not a big proponent of phys ed, but I think I had 10 different types of sports while I was there.  I can't say that I had great skill in any of them.  But I just remember, you know, some of them were fun, like bowling and ice skating.  You know, thinks like, skills I already had, so.

>> So, ice skating was a class during your time at Penn State, or?

>> Yeah, what happened was we had to take a sport every trimester. 

>> Oh, every trimester?

>> Yeah, so a different one.  So, like I had basketball, lacrosse, volleyball, swimming, tennis, archery.  Did I say lacrosse?  Ice skating, bowling, you name it.  I mean I had nine different sports.

>> Oh wow. 

>> Yeah, it was pretty painful, actually.  If it was a sport you liked that was fine, but if it was a sport you didn't like you were just stuck.

>> Wow, that's amazing.  I can't imagine.

>> And I had, I lived in West Halls, over there by the Rec Center, and I had an 8:00 ice skating class and I had to go all across the campus walking to get to ice skating by 8 a.m.  So, I definitely remember that.  I don't know where the ice skating is right now, but that was it.

>> Yes, so what was your favorite class.  I don't believe it might have, if it's not the phys ed class, what was your favorite class?

>> No, it was not phys ed.  But I probably American history courses.  I really, I probably would have majored in history if I had not majored in English.  And of course, I had to take you know science courses, and I tried to take the easiest ones I could because not my interest.  But you know, I'd probably have to say the history courses, really.  I liked those a lot.

>> Does any history course stick up to you in your memories?  I have a history.

>> Just think American.  American history.  Yeah.  That stuck out more.

>> Yeah, just overall American history?

>> I think so, and I've always really been interested, so, in that.

^M00:10:02

>> I took an American history course here, we have to take several as a history major, but it is quite interesting, especially thinking about the history of memory and this is just the idea of doing an interview such as this is amazing.

>> Yeah.  I don't think we ever would have thought of doing anything like that when I was there.  But.  I had, since my dad died in my sophomore year at Christmas time I had to work.  So, I worked in the dining hall.  And I'd go over before dinner and you know help serve the food.  And I tried to get other little jobs, typing for people.  I was a pretty good typist.  And I would type papers for people, you know that kind of stuff.  I had to make some extra money.  

>> I would say that's a skill in and of itself.  Just with time management and trying to keep everything going smooth.

>> Yeah, yeah and really, I mean it was, I'm an only child.  So, it was just me and my mother, and I worked in the summer, waitressing.  You know so I really had to help you know, with the tuition and all that bit, so.  I didn't really mind.  It wasn't terrible.

>> So, going back to that conversation about courses, and courses you enjoyed, did you have a favorite professor, do they still stick out to you?

>> I think only that one that stalked me [laughter].  When I was living in Philadelphia he would come down, and you know, he just, you know he was a very good English teacher I must say, and you know I probably remember him.  And then I remember the teacher who taught geology because he was quite a character.  But not, you know, nothing really else sticks to my mind much about teachers, so.

>> The professor who was a geologist, you said that he was a character.

>> He was.

>> Was his?

>> He was funny.  It was a lecture course.  It was a gut course.  And he was from New Jersey.  And he always was dissing New Jersey, and you know saying how awful New Jersey was.  And I just remember he was quite a colorful character, Dr. Latman [assumed spelling], yeah.

>> Did it help you cover the material with that?

>> Did it help me with geology?  I mean I remember certain kinds of rock formations, but that's about it.  

>> But he sticks out to you, that's good.

>> And I did have a course, this is very strange.  I had a course in Chinese history because I had been out of school. I couldn't get courses I wanted, and I think it was the only one that was left, was Chinese history.  So, I ended up taking that course and I remember virtually nothing, nothing from it.  I don't know if they still even teach it.  So, you're a history major?

>> Yes.

>> Yeah.

>> Going back to our conversation about skills, do you believe that other students graduated with the same skillset as you did?  Like other education students?

>> Yeah, I think so.  I think, you know, Penn State did a pretty good job of preparing you, you know, preparing teachers.  I think in those days there were three things a girl could become.  A secretary, a nurse, a teacher.  That was about it.  So, I was not going to be a nurse, I knew that.  And I'd been a secretary at various times in my life.  But, teaching just seemed like the only thing that was available to me and I would say probably 80% of girls went to college with the thought of finding a husband.  I mean it with the Mrs. degree at that time in the mid-60s.  That was why you went to college.  You tried to find a husband.  And really, I'm serious.  I mean, that was, you weren't really that much of a student, at least most girls weren't.  Most were just I'm going to find somebody to marry, and that's it.  And I'll just get through school somehow.

>> Wow, you said 80% of girls?

>> Oh, yeah.  I mean that was it.  You know, you didn't necessarily to college to learn a skill, or come out.  You know, the only thing you wanted to do was have some sort of job so that if your husband died, you could, you know, earn money or whatever.  But it was a very different world.

>> Wow.

>> Very different world.

>> Wow. 

>> Yeah, no it really was.  And you know, very limited.  We had very limited possibilities for women.  

>> We had to read for the 1968 course, we had to read "The Woman's Requirements for Housing on Campus."  And it's a big book than it is today.  Is there anything that sticks out to you with?

>> Well, I've got the booklet that I got before I went to Penn State.  And we had a house mother who lived in our dorm.  And we had to be in by, I think it was 11 or 11:30 on the weekends.  We would all stand around kissing our dates.  And the bell would ring, and that was it.  We had one phone on the hall for about, I don't know 40 girls.  And if the phone would ring, it was in the hall.  They would call you and everybody would know in the hall that you had a call.  You had no privacy with that.  The unfortunate thing for me was that my next door neighbor in the dormitory turned out to be my high school boyfriend's sister.  And so, I had to watch my behavior, because she would report everything to her brother.  Yeah.  So, there were things like that, and then what else do I remember?  I had two lesbians in my hall.  I had never heard of a lesbian.  I didn't know what a lesbian was.  And we had gang showers in McGee Hall and the lesbians you know would watch you showering, and that kind of thing.  I don't know if you're a lesbian or not, but in those days.  I had no idea.  I didn't know what a lesbian was.  You know I just had no idea.  And the other thing that sticks out to me I had a good, they did try to match me up with a good roommate, that worked.  It was really compatible.  We were encouraged, we had to wear, we couldn't wear pants to dinner.  

>> Wow.

>> We could only wear skirts.  I'm telling you, this is weird huh?  

>> Yeah.

>> I mean, and we were told that a co-ed smoked in her room but she never smoked outdoors.  And I have this booklet.

>> Was smoking big during your time at Penn State?

>> Very big.  

>> Okay.

>> Very, yeah, and in '64 was the Surgeon General's report came out, you know against smoking.  But you know, people really didn't pay much attention to it at that time.  So, you know, a goodly number of people smoked then, yeah.

>> So, it was very common?

>> Yes, it was very common.  We could walk up to the dairy creamery I think we called it which was on, I can't remember the name of the big road there, that goes through campus.  I don't know it was near the agricultural, you know, department.  But we could walk there from our hall.  So, we would, you know go up and get ice cream.   It was a very small dairy.  I think it was called the creamery.  At Penn State, you know, football of course is big then.  And I think I went to most of the games.  I did date one football player.  And Jerry Sandusky, he was on the team at that time, when I was there.  Joe Paterno was assistant coach.  I never knew Jerry Sandusky, but I know he was on the team.  

>> Right.

>> Yeah.

>> So, if you could change one thing about your experience at Penn State, what would it be.  Or would you change anything at all during?

>> I guess I would change for me not having to drop out twice.  And I think it was good that I went as a sorority.  You know there were some negative stuff about that, I'd probably do that again.  Probably major in English, but I think I would have liked to have had more opportunities, you know, to do other things.  So, I would change that.  I would change opportunities for women.  

>> Right, I'm sure that's a common theme of; it's just amazing.  I'm still floored about even in the late 1960s of the majority still being in it for an Mrs. Degree.  And wearing dresses and skirts to dinner.

^M00:20:00

>> Yeah, no pants to dinner.  No pants to dinner.  Now, by the time I left in 1968, it was like all the rules went away.

>> Really, okay.  

>> We didn't have a house mother.  And we still had a curfew.  And my best friend would always lead me in the back door if I was late, she'd come down and let me in.

>> Oh, that's nice [laughing].

>> You know, so it was just a very different world.  And it's hard if you, you know, didn't grow up during that time to imagine how restrictive things were for women.  When I got my first credit card, I couldn't get it in my own name.  I had to get it in my husband's name.  I still have that one.  

>> Wow.

>> It was really, really restricted; really restricted.

>> So, you mentioned by the time you began to think about graduating, the rules were starting to change.  Did you note the difference in the younger classes then from what you had experienced?

>> Well, I think since I was in a sorority I only knew the girls who joined the sorority.  And they were probably a special type of person.  I don't think they were hippies.  They weren't protesting.  Nobody was protesting that I knew the whole time I was there.  I couldn't tell you one person.  So, these people that entered the sorority were probably pretty conservative and they wouldn't be like free love or something like that.  So, no, I did not really run into much myself.  

>> That's interesting, because we always think about a certain era, and just labeling this one type of person on this one era.  So, it's interesting to hear about maybe a different side of this era, one that doesn't always get talked about.

>> I was not, I was not then, nor was I ever a hippie.  I think a lot of that didn't really permeate Penn State because it was so isolated in Pennsylvania.  You know, it wasn't near a big city.  And I think things came late; later.  I was like a little cocoon.  The Happy Valley, you know.  

>> Yes.

>> Yeah.

>> Quite the cocoon.

>> Yeah, it still is, I guess.  

>> Yes.

>> Right?

>> It still is.  

>> Yeah.

>> In my opinion.

>> Yeah, and yeah, and I would say of the girls in my sorority, about half found someone to get married to and got married right after college.  

>> So, how do you think that, or do you think that the assassinations of Martin Luther King and Bobby Kennedy in the spring of your last semester at Penn State?

>> Well, I have vivid memories of Martin Luther King.  I was student teaching, and I was living in this dumpy city called Conshohocken, which is near Philadelphia, which I understand has become nice now.  But then it wasn't.  It was very creepy.  We had roaches all over our apartment, I mean it was just very, very bad place.  So, one night I was teaching, I think 8th grade with my student teaching job and I was out at a teacher parent meeting on the night that Martin Luther King was killed.  And I, since I was out, I guess someone went through town and let the air out of all the tires in Conshohocken.  And the only way I avoided that was that I wasn't there.  You know, I was out at a teacher meeting.  So, I remember that vividly.  Yeah, I remember that vividly.  Bobby Kennedy, I think I was pretty much, I had graduated and my mother took me on a trip.  And you know, so I'm not sure what day he was killed, was it June?  Bobby Kennedy?

>> It was in the more middle of springtime I believe. 

>> Because you know, Martin Luther King was April 4th.

>> Yes.  

>> I mean I know that.  But it seemed to me like Bobby Kennedy was June, but you know, I probably repressed that.  I could look it up here, I'm online.  The whole, the whole, like it just didn't affect me a lot.  I mean, of course, I knew it was happening, but I was more interested in like getting a job.  And you know, moving to Philadelphia with some girls.  And getting an apartment. And you know so I was kind of into that mode.  Let's see assassination was in June of 1968, June 6.  And I probably was just about to graduate, or I had already graduated.  And we had graduation at Beaver Stadium. 

>> Oh, wow.

>> You know if you want to feel like a nothing, graduate in Beaver Stadium, I mean really.  

>> Just being completely surrounded.

>> It didn't exactly make you feel warm and fuzzy.  But, yeah.  So, June, when did I say?  June 6th, June 6th.  Yep.  Another thing was that that was California, that happening, I think California.  So, you know it wasn't, you know, close.  I remember the riots for the presidential election that year, that summer.  But in terms, I think probably the first Kennedy's death affected me, and affected the United States much more than, you know, than anything else.  I think it started a whole trend of assassinations.  Yeah, so, it seemed to affect me more that Robert, or you know, Jack Kennedy's death affected me more.  

>> That, yes, it was a terrible, yeah, it was a terrible assassination.

>> The whole, I mean the whole period was just awful, when I look back on it now, but as I was living through it, I wasn't as aware of it I guess, I don't know.

>> So, what is one suggestion that you would offer to current students at Penn State?

>> I would just you know tell them to study hard and take advantage and you know get yourself into some profession that you really like and that you think you could stick with it.  Because I went for a field with my English teaching, and went in a number of other directions.  But it did equip me to, it equipped me to make money and support myself, you know, as a career.  Yeah.

>> And you felt Penn State really helped you with that?

>> I think so, I have very, very good feelings about the coursework and the quality of the teachers.  And, you know, it was not an Ivy League, but it was a good place, good university.  Yeah, I mean I didn't feel cheated, you know, I didn't feel that I didn't get a good education.  I did.

>> Yes, that's good.  Do you still feel a lot of Penn State pride with that?  

>> I do.  I do.  And I got my master's degree at University of Maryland.  I have absolutely no feeling whatsoever for the University of Maryland, but I think because of the things that happened to me during my college career, good and bad.  And you know, I really, I have very strong feelings for Penn State, you know, I do.  I feel very proud, and always follow the football games, because my husband follows the football games too.  But he didn't go to Penn State.  So, it was a good experience.

>> What was it like to attend the football games as a student during that time period?

>> Well, it was great fun.  I mean we all went, and of course toward the end of the season, it really got cold, very cold.  I just remember sitting there freezing.  And in those days, you'd wear a suit, I have a picture of myself, double dating with another couple, and I'm in a, you know, a suite.

>> Oh wow.

>> And a raincoat.  And that's, you know, that was kind of it.  I mean you kind of dressed up a little bit for the games.  You might have a corsage, or you know, it was a little dressy event.

>> A corsage?  

>> But one time, a corsage, sometimes, but homecoming.  It was homecoming, you know sometimes you have a corsage, or somebody would give you one.  Anyway, I remember one time we won and I was caught up in this euphoria of a bunch of people just running from the you know, from the stadium back to where I lived in West Hall picking up cars.

^M00:30:06

And you know, just kind of acting out and I didn't want anything to do with it, I was like oh my gosh, you know what is this?  So, it was like very high spirits.  But in those days high spirits were not probably that great.  Just lifting up cars is not the worst thing that can happen.  So, but it was very much rah, rah.  It was very, you know, you were deathly into the football culture.  You know.

>> Was that a uniting culture, the football culture?

>> I think so, I think so.  In my West Dorm, I don't know why but there were a lot of football players that lived there.  And so, I got to know, you know, some of them.  And they were the kind of, you know, they were jocks.  They were jocks definitely.  But, no I have very good feelings about Penn State and my husband and I went back for a couple games a few years ago.  And my husband really loves football, so he really enjoys it a lot, yeah.  So, I don't know maybe we'll go back and go to another game.  

>> Yeah, that is something, yeah.

>> True, at the tailgating, like the number of people who are tailgating, and there was nothing like that in my day.  Nothing.  Nothing like that.

>> That's very interesting that dressing up for football games, dressing up.

>> Yeah, yeah.  I may dig up a picture me and my double date and the guy that I almost married, but didn't and my senior year, if I can dig that out, I'll send it in, you know send it in.  Yeah, I mean it was the same thing on airplanes.  I mean when you went somewhere on an airplane, you like dressed up to just about the best you could dress.

>> Oh?

>> Yeah.   

>> This just has me curious how would people dress for class, then?  Would they dress up?

>> Well, there was a big company called Villager.  And it was a wool skirt, a wool sweater, and a Peter Pan collar.  Knee stocks because we didn't have pantyhose.  I remember buying sweaters down, men's sweaters because it was so cold at Penn State.  But, yeah, so skirts, sweaters, knee socks, loafers.  You might have a pair of jeans, or maybe you had two pairs of jeans you would maybe wear on the weekends.  You wouldn't wear them to dinner, though.  And I went to, I dated a guy from Princeton, so one time I went to Princeton, and I know I wore a suit, you know for the football game.  It was just different.  Very different.  No flip-flops.  

>> So, it sounds a lot more formal then.

>> A lot more formal, yeah.  

>> Wow.  Okay, that's really interesting.

>> And another thing that changed during that time was that you went from black and white photos to color photos.  So, in between that period from '64 to '68 I start out with black and white for my sorority shots.  My last year I had color.  And that was true of weddings.  That was also true of weddings.  You know, black and white, and then when I got married in 1971, it was color.  

>> Wow.

>> So, that was another thing that changed.  

>> Wow.  It's such, was that a big thing then, towards the end of your?

>> I guess it was.  I guess it was a big thing, yeah to go from black and white to color.  Yeah, and no pantyhose.  I mean really?  Your knees would just get so cold because it would be between your knee socks and your skirt.  They would just get chapped.  Your knees would get chapped [laughter].  So, some of those things I remember just being so cold up there.

>> Yes.

>> So cold.

>> This is just curious because I know whenever the first snow comes here at Penn State we always play in it.  When it snowed and it got so cold, would you and your friends in the sorority play in the snow?  Was it a nuisance?  Did the university ever close for snow? 

>> You know, I don't remember ever playing in the snow I think probably it fell into the nuisance category.  And there were a couple of times when school was called off.  Not many.  There was a big power failure at one point, I remember and also it was in a fire in my dorm.  We had to move out, had to be, I was outside all day in my nightgown.  This was summer, thank God.  So, I had to go, we moved to a different dorm.  But basically, I mean the cold was something that you just, and I'm sure you feel the same way, you just had to put up with it.  And it was so biting and you know, painful.  Yeah, and I don't remember playing in the snow, ever, or seeing anybody play in the snow either.  One thing I will say I think it was a very safe campus.  

>> Yes.

>> Very safe.  Yeah.  I don't know if it still is.  Is it still safe?  Is it safe there?

>> I would say Penn State tries very hard to create a safe environment.  And of course, strive to make their students feel safe as well.  There's a blue light system, where if someone is walking alone at night and they want a campus officer to walk with them, they will press a light and stay at that location, and campus is very lit up at night.  There are of course, places to improve on, there always are.  But I feel safe on campus.

>> Well, we had the campus police, you know, then.  And I just never felt, I never felt threatened, I was never raped, or, you know nothing like that.

>> You remember the campus police?  Did you see them often?  I know I usually see them for football games usually.  When did you see them?

>> I think they were, just kind of you knew that they were there and if you needed help, you know, somehow you would get a hold of them.  I don't think there was a call system, I don't remember, but one thing that wasn't very good at Penn State was the health center.  It was called Ritenour, I don't know what it's called now.  But they just, they weren't very helpful.  The health center at that time.  I don't know how they are now.  My roommate had a burst appendix and gallbladder.  And she practically died.  Just because you know, there wasn't good, I don't know what you say, emergency medicine then.  Yeah.  And if you went over there and you had a cold, well you know you may or may not get something, or you might not get the right thing.  There just wasn't, it was not a good health service at that time.  So, and you know, again, I don't know how it is now.  So, there were a lot of, you know, things that went on that I never knew what they were.  For instance, like bulimia, that I didn't know existed.  Anorexia, I don't think I knew that existed either.  Then, I had a roommate who went to study abroad, and there was one girl she was with who was throwing up, you know, who was bulimic.  But you didn't see or hear much about that.  There may have been other, you know other people.  But it didn't seem to be a big deal.  And in terms of ethnic.  I mean there just weren't a lot of black students.  There were not.  There were just not.  I don't' think they were discriminated against, I just think there weren't many of them.  I don't think there probably were any Hispanic students, then.  

>> So, that lack of diversity, that was not really a conversation that you were having with other people?

>> Never.

>> Right, okay.

>> Never.  Never came up.  And the sororities were stratified by race and ethnicity.  So, you had your Jewish sororities, you had your African-American sororities, you know, that's just the way it was.  

>> It's interesting, just because diversity is a very important topic, a very important idea that Penn State has.

>> Sure.

>> So, it's just interesting to see how that has evolved over time.  

^M00:39:58

>> Well, the thing is that the region that Penn State pulled from you know was you know Pennsylvania, not terribly high level of black people.  So, it was more the surrounding you know where people were from Scranton, or wherever they were from.  There just weren't a lot of black people, then, so you didn't have to think about it.  It never came up.  

>> It's interesting how that conversation has evolved over time.  So, is there anything else that you would like to discuss during this interview, during this time?

>> I think I've really given you a lot of probably strange, weird information, but at that time it wasn't weird.  But you know, you would hope that someone would ask you out on Saturday night, and if someone didn't ask you out, you would just be miserable, and people in your dorm would know that no one asked you out.  And so, you would hope that someone asked you out, even if it was a jerk, or not an exciting person, because you just didn't want to be in your dorm on a Saturday night.  It was horrible.

>> You just wouldn't go out by yourself, or with friends?

>> No, no I don't think so.  Stay in the dorm.  You'd just stay in there, in your room, study, or whatever, but the only thing of course that we had to drink was beer and we you know, on the weekends you go to fraternity parties and drink beer, and I think most people lived on campus were in, fraternity you know, fraternity houses.  So, you know, for a Saturday night, boy you better have a date, and.

>> Wow.  I'm blown away by that.  Wow.

>> Yeah, yeah.  I remember going out with some real awful people because they asked me out, so it's better to go out with an awful person than not to go out at all.  

>> Wow.

>> Really strange.  Yeah.

>> That's, wow.  Well, I thank you so much for your time.  For taking the time and just scheduling all of this.  

>> Well, it was fun for me.

>> Thank you so much, I enjoyed talking to you and I will let you know how the project turns out.

>> Good.  I'd like to, I'm in touch with this person who comes down to see me in Washington, Denay [assumed spelling], and also with Chris Gammel [assumed spelling].  So, you know, I've been in touch with them.  And met with her, and so I'm hoping.  I'm actually taking a course right now on the sixties.  And we were kind of hoping we could get somebody to come down from Penn State.  So, I don't know if that's a possibility, but we're going to work on that.  So, if you decide you want to come down [laughter] you know.  So, you are, where do you live?  Do you live on campus?

>> I am actually a local of State College.  

>> Oh, okay.  Okay.

>> I live with my parents.  

^M00:43:35 ^M00:43:39

>> Well, that's you know, saves money.

>> Yes it does.

>> Saves money.  Well, listen, I hope you have a great time the rest of your time there at Penn State, and make the most of it.

>> Thank you.  I appreciate that.  Thank you so much for talking with me today.

>> Okay.  I'm glad we got it worked out.

>> Yes, me too.  Bye-bye.

>> All right, bye-bye.

^E00:44:05

Interview by Noor Al-Ahmad

>> Now starting the recording. So, my name is [inaudible] and I'm from Kuwait. I'm a freshman at Penn State and I'm a political science major currently. And we're just going to go through this interview talking about your experience at Penn State when you were here in the 60's. So, yeah, go ahead. Just what's your name?  >> Okay.  >> Yeah, what was your major? And you know.  >> Well, my name is Elizabeth Shabel-Ramadass [assumed spelling].  >> okay.  >> When I joined as a freshman, I was Elizabeth Shabel. And then, I got married between my BA and my MA. And I became Elizabeth Ramadass. Back in 1960, I majored in political science. Originally, don't laugh, I wanted to be a spy.  >> A spy?  >> A spy.  >> Well, that's very fitting for the time.  >> And because of that, I thought I had a double major, because I had taken enough courses in Russian to have a Russian major. But I didn't realize I had to declare it. So, I never had it on my transcript. But I was studying political science and Russian. And.  >> Yeah, just to clarify, can you tell me what years you attended Penn State?  >> I began in September of 1960. I got my Bachelors degree in March of 64.  >> Okay.  >> And then, I enrolled in graduate school. And I got my Masters degree in 66.  >> Okay.  >> And then, I didn't come back until 71. When I returned to work with a special educational opportunity program that I had helped to start. And those students started at Penn State in 68. But we'll go into that later.  >> Okay. Yeah, I mean that's very interesting. But to start from the beginning. I mean, with your interest in spying and then Russian. Why did not specifically choose to attend Penn State? I mean, what attracted you to this campus at that moment in time?    >> When I was young, I had been in an organization called Rainbow Girls, which was daughters of masons. And we used to have a summer retreat at Penn State every summer. So, I was already somewhat familiar with the campus and I really liked it. Also, I wanted to go to a large school, because I figured the larger the school, the broader the interests that would be available. And the third reason was, of course, Penn State was, at that time, well subsidized by the Pennsylvania Legislature. And so, the tuition was much cheaper than a private school.  >> I see. But there wasn't anything specifically within the demographic? Or even, I mean, like relating to your interest in, you know, your double major aspirations, like with Russian? I mean did that have to do more with your background or was that inspired when you came on campus or something you saw on campus?  >> It was. There weren't very many state supported institutions except for the teacher colleges and I didn't want to be a teacher. So.  >> So.  >> I mean, it didn't have anything to do with my background. Nobody in my family had ever gone to Penn State. My father had gone to Gettysburg College. I didn't want to go to a small college.  >> Okay.  >> And so, I began in 1960, living in the dorms. In 1960 girls had to be in by nine PM.  >> Yes, yes, I've heard about the curfew, the ridiculous curfew.    >> And we were allowed 11 o'clock on weekends. And two or three times a year we were allowed to stay out until midnight.  >> But you also. I mean, you mention in your biography that every once in a while the girls would manage to sneak out, because they felt like.  >> Oh yes.  >> Yes.  >> It wasn't hard to sneak out. We would sign in. And then we would go out the side door and you would leave it propped open with just a small stick. And the only thing that you had to fear was fire drills, because then they did a bed check. And that's what [inaudible] primarily bed check.  >> So.  >> But usually somebody heard about them in advance and warned us.  >> Right. So, it was sort of like a student organized, like a grouping. Like you all were very aware of the nature of these ridiculous rules. But was it something that was specific to your groups of friends? Or was it something that was wide spread?  >> Everybody did it.  >> Everybody.  >> Not everybody. But a very, very large number of students did it. They were also very strict about what you could have in your room. You were not allowed to have a coffee pot or a space heater or anything electric. They said it took too much electricity.  >> But in terms of the differences, you know, the gender differences between how, you know, the freedom that women on campus were allowed to have versus, you know, their male counterparts. Was that something that, you know, girls were, like girls on campus were very aware of? And they wanted to purposefully sort wanted to rebel against at the time in the 60's? Or was that [inaudible].  >> Not really. We knew that like. For example, girls were only allowed to smoke in their bedroom or in the dining hall or class. But you're not allowed to walk around campus with a cigarette. Guys could smoke anywhere. But we just figured, well, you know, we're women and they're men and that's the way it is. We didn't really have a much. The women's movement didn't pick up until the 60's.  >> Okay. So, was that? So, it wasn't. I mean, because I've gotten reports, I've heard things about Penn State at the time. That it wasn't quite so. The student body wasn't quite so radical that they had sort of accepted the way things were, as were saying. And that the radical students were very much a minority at the time. So, I guess.  >> Well, the radical students were a minority. But the radical students were, at that time, not interested in gender differences. They were interested in, like the students for a democratic society. And the various civil rights movements. They were interested in racial equality.  >> Right.  >> But gender didn't sort of hit the fan until the next decade.  >> Until the 70's. So, not even in the late 60's?  >> Late 60's.  >> Okay. So, more so after you got your MA and had returned in 71. Would you say that that was where you saw a more, like greater awareness, in terms of gender disparity?   >> Well, in 71 when I returned, I wasn't even thinking about gender disparity. I was thinking about the way that black students were treated at Penn State, because I was working in an educational opportunity program.  >> Right.  >> And it was, it focused on race.  >> So. Okay. So, I see what you're saying.  >> Prior to returning to Penn State in 71, however, I was working for the Pennsylvania Human Relations Commission. And we were very aware of the changes that had occurred. In 19, the 1964 Civil Rights Act, prohibited discrimination based on gender. But it didn't apply to state agencies. So, it wasn't until that was amended to apply to state agencies that my friends and I were able to take advantage of it. When I got my first job working for the state, I, by an accident of getting a guy's paycheck, who was less qualified than me, I found out he made 50 percent more money than I did. And when I challenged this. I was challenging it based on my qualifications. And my boss said, but he's a man with a wife and family to support. And I apologized for not thinking of that. So, I mean, it took a while for people to really grasp that it was wrong.  ^M00:10:13 >> And what you're saying is you grasped it more so when you were in the workforce, rather than when you were attending Penn State as an undergrad [inaudible].  >> Right.  >> Okay.  >> Correct.  >> So, going back to your experience at Penn State, was there? I mean, you said that your focus was more so on race and racial inequality. Was there a specific course or professor that made a lasting impression on your studies, in terms of those things?  >> The person who made the lasting impression on me was not a professor. It was Reverend Arthur Seyda, S-E-Y-D-A. He was the Lutheran campus pastor. And I was a Lutheran student, active in the Lutheran Students Association. But I never heard of Lutherans being radical. And he brought a new flavor. He led the boycotts of the barber shops, because at that time black students couldn't get their hair done in the barber shops or the beauty shops. It was for whites only. And, in fact, a lot of the black students had to travel a couple of hours to find a place where they could get their hair done. The other thing is he signed students up to go on Freedom Rides. And we had long discussions about that. I was afraid to go on a Freedom Ride, because, not because of getting hurt, but I was afraid that it would interfere with my chances of becoming a spy for the CIA.  >> Of course. Of course.  >> So.  >> Yeah. So, was there, ending with that particular culture, I mean was there a specific. I mean, in terms of media and how students interacted with media. Was there like music or a TV show or a movie or something at the time, whether it be related to campus or off campus, that like somehow led you to see something differently? The same way that you described Reverend Seyda as having done. I mean do you think that the media culture of the time was particularly influential on your experience?  >> Not really. We very, very rarely saw television. It was different in those days. We weren't allowed to have TV's in our room. And the only TV in the dorm was in the student lounge. And that was only turned on when they decided that there was something that we should see. We heard radio more than TV. But we all had such different class schedules, we didn't have a whole lot of time to be listening to radio.  >> Right. Classes and everything.  >> I heard of Kennedy's assassination on the radio.  >> But what about. So, you weren't exactly exposed to. But when you say that, you know, they eventually put a tele, TV in the student lounge and they decided there was something.  >> Well, they always had a TV in the student lounge, but they would only decide when they would turn it on. Like they had it turned on for the presidential debates between Kennedy and Nixon. I don't recall it being on very often. Now, they had [inaudible] got the New York Times. And I used to go there and read the New York Times. And then, we also read what we called the Center Daily Crimes, which was the Center Daily Times. But it was mostly just reporting thefts and break ins and vandalism and stuff like that. >> And the Collegian didn't really. Did that have any influence on you? Because at the time the Collegian.  >> No. At that time, the Collegian was very right winged.  >> Right. So, you couldn't. You didn't really go to it for your information, or you know.  >> Oh absolutely not. The only thing you used the Daily Collegian for was to find out where there were concerts.  >> So, music then, right? Music, perhaps plays and then theater. I mean, was that something that?  >> Oh the music. The availability of cultural things was incredible at Penn State. There were always concerts. And the only thing was getting in line early enough to get a ticket, because there were always more students who wanted to go than there were tickets available. But they had fantastic concerts. Joan Baez sang there one time.  >> Really? Wow.  >> And actually I have autograph on an album cover.  >> Wow that's cool.  >> And then, the theater, there were different types of theater. The theater I liked in the, now I can't, in Old Main in the basement there was like. I don't know what you call it. I don't know whether you would call it alternative theater. It was just plays that had two or three people in them. And it was pretty avant-garde type plays. It wasn't the typical plays that you put on in a big auditorium.  >> Right.  >> I enjoyed those very much.  >> I mean, I imagine with only two or three characters, it must have. I mean, the subject of the plays must have very intense and personal. So, what were the. I mean, can you think back to any of the content of those people's, or, you know, those characters? What the conflict in those plays was?  >> It was almost 60 years ago. I don't remember that long.  >> Right. Of course. Of course. But, you know, with so much occurring in the late 1960's and even early 60's, such as, you know, the first moon photos from space or, you know, the incredible student protests that eventually broke out, or the presidential elections and/or Kennedy's assassination. I mean, what were your particular interests at the time? And how did you express them on campus?  >> Well, I was. I was sort of an anomaly because I had been raised in a family that was predominantly republican in their leanings. And most of the friends that I made were very leftist in their thinking. And I realized I was too. It just took me a long time until I actually changed parties. But I really was, was more involved in international, learning about other countries. I belonged to the Friends of India Organization. And the Cosmopolitan Club, which was international students and American students that enjoyed being with them. And I would say, as a result of that too, I became drawn into the Civil Rights movement.  >> So, I mean.  >> The, you know, when Goldwater ran for president, most of the students had buttons that said, Goldwater in 1864.  >> Nineteen 64 or 1864?  >> Eighteen 64.  >> Okay.   >> I mean, they felt that he was completely out of tune with the times. That he belonged in a different era.  >> I see. But, you know, being, especially I think.  I mean with your aspirations to become a spy, of course. But also with your interests in political science in the 60's, did you at the, did you feel a moral or ethical responsibility to attend these sort of, you know, these group meetings with international students? Students, who I assume were very different than you were. I mean, where did that need arise from? Was it mostly just seeing people and realizing perhaps, you know, maybe you weren't aware?  >> I think it was just [inaudible] in me. I mean, actually Penn State wasn't my first exposure to any civil rights activity. I had participated in a protest in North Carolina when I was, oh my goodness, 12 or 13 years old. And I never. I never approved of discrimination. When I was in elementary school, they, we had a lot of Puerto Rican students. And they were not allowed to intermingle with us. They were always put on one side of the room with an empty row of chairs between us. And even in those days when they were not allowed to put Valentines in the Valentine box, I always made sure I gave them Valentines. And things like that. So, it's, it's just from the time I was little I just. My grandmother was probably a big influence on me. And she always believed very strongly in the inherent equality of everyone.    ^M00:20:37 >> And was that closely related to your. I mean, was that part of the, your religious background?  >> No.  >> No. Okay.  >> Lutherans weren't. Lutherans per se were not that into civil rights. They were one of the last denominations to start having black preachers and black congregants. There was a small group of light skinned black people that would be Lutherans. But they were in their own church. And they were not in an integrated church. Other denominations, such as Presbyterian, integrated far earlier.  >> So, I mean it's quite strange, your case, because you definitely seem like, you know, quite, like you definitely stepped out of, you know. I mean, because you described Penn State at the time, I mean with the Collegian or, you know, in terms of gender equality or even, you know, with barber shops and Freedom Rides, like you talked about. I mean, more so a conservative campus than it was, you know. It wasn't like everyone was swept up in a collective movement for change. I mean, is that what you saw?  >> Oh, no, no, no, no. Penn State was, for the most part, rather conservative. I would say the number of students that were involved in the more radical activities were probably less than five percent of the population.  >> And how did you interact with those students as a political science major? I mean, did you.  >> I was drawn [inaudible].  >> Yeah, continue. Sorry.  >> I found them to be people who, who thought for themselves instead of just accepting whatever was said to them.  >> Just like you did. So, did you feel, did you feel a particular affinity to them? Did you feel like you were one of them? Or did you distance yourself from those people, in terms of, you know, people calling you radical or with your friend groups or something?  >> I think. People didn't call me radical. They. I was a little bit odd. But they didn't consider me radical at the time. And I probably wasn't radical at the time. I was at the edge of the fringe crowd.  >> So, I wanted to ask you about the multiple student associations that you were a part of. Like, you mentioned the Christian Association, the Muslim Student Association, the Friends of India, the Cosmo Club. And how did your sense, I mean, if it did at all, how did your sense of political urgency change? I mean, did that spur, you know, your interests away from spying and into political science more? Or how were your interests driven?  ^M00:23:40 ^M00:23:44 >> I'm not sure I even thought it through. I always found it very fascinating to learn about other countries. And when I. During my sophomore year, I had moved into the Slavic Center, which was a former home management house, which was used for girl students studying Russian. And because we had a nice large living room, a lot of the organ, well not a lot of the organizations, the Cosmopolitan Club and the Friends of India met there. And through the Cosmopolitan Club, I met a number of the Muslim students. The leader was Farooq Fauzi [assumed spelling]. He was a very devout Muslim. And at the same time, he was very, very open minded. And he started the Muslim Student Association. I'm not sure what year he started it. It was probably the early 60's. And.  ^M00:24:54 ^M00:24:58 A lot of things were going on in Africa at that time.  >> Right.  >> All of the countries were getting or had already gotten their independence. And people were very, very proud of their countries having overthrown the colonial powers.  >> And did you see, I mean, in regards to that new found pride and appreciation in their culture. I mean, on campus, did you see, was there. I mean, to that attitude of pride, of ethnic pride, did you see that most students were indifferent? That they reacted negatively and lashed out? Or that they were supportive and [inaudible]? I mean, what did you see in terms of the general acceptance.  >> Generally indifferent. I didn't even realize it was going on.  >> Okay. And do you think that had something to do with, I mean state colleges geographic location? And, you know, in contrast to say Columbia or Berkeley or, you know, those other colleges that had [inaudible].  >> That had [inaudible] to do with it. And also, there were virtually. I don't think I met any African students who were undergrads. They were all graduate students. And for the most part, the undergraduates hung with undergraduates and the graduate students stuck with graduate students. And so, there was very little interaction between them.  >> So, mostly [inaudible].  >> People like me that were involved in organizations that they were involved in.  >> Yeah. So, with those organizations, I think I find your interest in Russian language particularly interesting, for the time especially. I mean, I don't know, I would suspect that might have had something to do with your aspirations to be a spy. And, you know, the Cold War sort of, you know, political climate, maybe you felt, you know, interested in sort of the other side, right? The commie side, I suppose. I mean, where was your interest in that, in that, how did that begin?  >> I'm sure you. How did it begin? It began out of necessity. I went to a small high school that didn't offer Spanish and French and those languages. And I found out my freshman year that you would take a language placement test. And the students, who had studied like French for four years, would sandbag and start off in French one. And it was very difficult to make an A when you had, had to compete with students who had already had about four years of the language. So, I said, well I'll take Russian, because very few high schools offer Russian. In fact, in my Russian class there was only one girl who's high school had offered Russian. But what I found out is a lot of people spoke it at home.  >> So, did you find that it was, I mean for the time in America especially, did you find that people tended to conceal their Russian, their ability within Russian language? I mean, did you ever feel, you know like [inaudible].  >> Well, it was like this, Russian. Just studying Russian made you suspect to a certain degree. One of our teachers said, if you ever have an enemy subscribe to, buy them a subscription to Pravda or Izvestia. And that way all of their neighbors will consider them to be a communist and blackball them. If you want to have privacy when you're on a train, open up a Russian journal and nobody will speak to you.  ^M00:29:10 ^M00:29:14 >> So.  >> But the Russian teachers, for the most part, were descendants of people who had fled communism or people who had themselves fled communism. And so, even though they taught the Russian language and Russian culture, they, Russian literature, but they were very, very, very anticommunist.  >> [Inaudible] to anticommunist. But. So, was that something? So, that was something you saw on campus as well with the Slavic Languages Department. I mean, were they, did they have that very clearly as their sort of, you know, we're not associated with this, nor do we wish to.  ^M00:30:04 >> I don't think so. I don't think people in campus in general paid that much attention to any of that.  >> That's really interesting. Just because you hear, the 60's seems to be such a [inaudible] time for, you know, virtually the whole world. And yet, I guess would say college, I think especially in terms of its geographic location and it's, you know, virtual separation from a lot of. You know, it's not exactly in a. It's not the type of environment that you would see in a city. So, I guess the same assumptions you would have for the rest of the world in the 60's don't really apply to Penn State, in terms of radicalism.     >> Right, just a small percentage of the student body.  >> And seeing as you, I mean, you said you graduated and got your Masters in 66, right? So, the.  >> Right.  >> So in 64, which you mentioned you graduated your Bachelors, you got your Bachelors in 64.  >> Correct.  >> [Inaudible] a lot of student protests sort of arose for the need of, you know, free speech and sort of breaking out from the curfews that were set for female students in dorms. I mean, did you notice a sort of, were people sort of, you know, more on edge because of that? Did administrators sort of, with, especially with Jesse Arnelle coming, coming over later on and talking about, you know, the facts that you didn't see any progress being made, in terms of, you know, racial progress. Did you see that people throughout the 60's, especially towards the latter end, started to get more and more, you know, wound up, I suppose?  ^M00:31:51 ^M00:31:58 >> Well, I'll put it this way. I. After I got. Well, even before I actually. No, after I got my Masters degree, I started working in the poverty program. And became involved with a group of students, who wanted to go to college, but didn't have the money or the grades or the SAT scores to get in, for a variety of reasons based on discrimination. And through the efforts of their leader, whose name was David Paterson, a high school student, nine of them from Harrisburg were given special admission. And I think this, my memory is bad now. I think it was probably June of 68 that they got that. And when they arrived on campus, the headlines in the. Now, at this time, the undergraduate student body was over 20 thousand students. But the headline in the Daily Collegian said, blacks invade campus.  >> Wow.  >> Nine students was an invasion.  >> Yeah. And, and.  >> And at the time that I started in 1960, they would ask incoming freshman what their race was. They stopped doing that. But in order to pair people up for roommates, they used to say, what race roommate would you prefer?  >> Right.  >> And sometimes that got a little bit strange when a black person would ask for a black roommate and a white person would ask for a black roommate. And they'd get paired together. And they'd say, how'd this happen?  >> But when you talk about, you know, things like black student invasion, which, you know, quite extreme. Did you see that, you know, in terms of, in terms of, because you were associated with a lot of international students and international organizations, right? You mentioned that.  >> When I was in Penn State. But after I got my Bachelors degree, I took a job at the local level in Harrisburg. And there I was involved with all aspects of the community. But in my assignments, I, because of my youth, I was made the leader of several of the black youth groups that were forming.  >> And how did they? I mean, with the, with those forming organizations, how did they sort of react to your presence with them? Were they, you know, supportive and?  >> After they got to know and trust me, they, they, they highly loved me.  >> Right.  >> It took a while to establish that trust.  ^M00:35:10 ^M00:35:14 >> But I suppose, you know, with, when we're talking about international students and students who were either, you know, black or white. I mean, what was the sort of, what were their voices? So, you talk about [inaudible name], who was, you know, you mentioned opened or established the Muslim Student Organization. I mean, were their voices sort of lost in the midst of all the other commotion that was going on? Or, or were their voices quite prominent? What did you see?  >> Well, they had no, they had their own agendas. They had no interest in standing up for the rights of African American students. Just as the African American students had no interest in standing up for the rights of the Muslim students. Both of them had a hard road of hope. And actually in a lot of the movements that were going on, the late 60's saw the emergence of the anti-Vietnam War. And the protestors that were involved in antiwar activities rarely had anything to do with the protestors who were involved in civil rights activities. And the antiwar protestors were just as likely to discriminate against African American students, as the people that were pro-war. I mean, it was really weird.  >> Yeah. I mean, you described sort of a segregation even within these radical movements, which was [inaudible].  >> Yes.  >> Which is interesting. But so, you're basically saying that there really wasn't much of, you know, I suppose cross sectional experiences. People who were. I mean, because when we're talking about Vietnam, especially when the draft, right? People opposing the draft and the war in general. I mean, did you see any sort of solidarity amongst male students, whether they were black or white or neither. I mean, was there none of that? Did they still separate?  >> There was not much of it. There were a handful of students. There was one family, the Klebson [assumed spelling] family, that were very heavily engaged in antiwar protests and also very heavily engaged in civil rights protests. Their daughter, Pamela, was one of the Freedom Fighters that was attacked by the dogs and the fire hoses in Birmingham. But they were the exception rather than the rule.  >> Right. So, I mean, when they. Did you, did you ever hear anything from male students on campus about Vietnam? Or, you know, what they expected was their duty [inaudible].  >> Oh we had a, we had a pretty. See, I was in a. There was a Baptist preacher, either Baptist or Methodist. Reverend Bob Boyer, who sort of was the adult advisor to the people that were. I wouldn't say antiwar. The people who were conscientious objectors. And he did a lot of CO counseling. And he trained a lot of CO counselors. See at that time, you had a mandatory draft. And you had to declare yourself to be a conscientious objector and have it sustained by the draft board. And originally, you know, back in the early 60's almost everybody who said they were a CO was given CO status. But then, as the war escalated and more and more people were claiming to be CO's, some of whom were and some of whom just didn't want to go to Vietnam, then they got a lot tougher.  >> And did you see in your time, in your time at Penn State, did you sort of see throughout, you know, your beginnings as a freshman towards, you know, the time where you got your, where you finally eventually got your Masters and perhaps came back. I mean, did you see a sort of shift in the way that people, you know, thought of Vietnam and the war in Vietnam in students or faculty or, you know, any of the friends that you happen to make. I mean, were students actively talking about it or? I mean, did you see like in the beginning perhaps that students didn't care as much and then.  ^M00:40:14 >> I think by that time, I was so involved in the movement that I wouldn't be a fair person to ask. Because the people that I associated with were all active in the movement. And I feel fairly certain that that did not represent a majority of the student body by a long shot.  >> Right. But when did you say that you started associating with these groups heavily? Did that begin right at, right when you started? Or later on?  >> No, no. It was a gradual thing. And I don't think I was really that involved until probably when I was working on my Masters degree.  >> And what, what? I mean, when you describe, what sort of involvement would you have had? Protests? Or, you know, boycotts? Or, I mean, what was the nature of the movement at Penn State?  >> I was subscribing to I.F. Stones publications and spreading information. It wasn't so much active protests, as it was enlightening people as to what was going on.  >> And do you have any, did any of those experiences stick with you? When, I don't know, perhaps you would, you know. I mean, I'm assuming most of these were students, but [inaudible].  >> I would say they all stuck with me.  >> Can you tell me about one? I mean the most memorable one. Or one you're inclined to share.  >> Well, well first of all, when you get into the, the antidiscrimination, the civil rights part, by the, by 1969 I was working for the Pennsylvania Human Relations Commission as a civil rights investigator. And that basically, with a few times when I went into other things, was my career until I retired. I went, you know, from Pennsylvania to D.C. into the federal government. And I retired after working in Equal Housing Opportunity and HUD for about 25 years.  ^M00:42:40 ^M00:42:45 >> So.  >> I changed my voter registration from republican to democrat.  >> Right.  >> I did CO counseling when I lived in Harrisburg.  >> So, going back to that sort of separation in between, I mean that existent in the 60's, you know, with the sort of communists being oust and shamed for their beliefs. I mean, did you see any of that on campus? Were people. I suppose I'm just trying to, you know, get any sort of memories that you might have of political interactions or, I mean, even banners or assignments or anything that you saw that really pointed to how extreme people's beliefs at the time might have been.  >> I never saw any banners or things like that. The one thing that sticks out in my mind. There was a group of students, graduate students from the Soviet Union, who came to study at Penn State for about a year. And my girlfriend and I made friends with two of the guys. I think they were from Azerbaijan. And they had heard about jazz. But they had never listened to jazz. And so, we took them to our bedroom to play some jazz records. And they were watched pretty closely by their monitors. And we were sort of watched pretty closely by some of the Russian language faculty. And both sides burst into our room screaming at us. The Russian monitor was afraid that we were up there trying to convert the Soviet Union students towards capitalism. And our teachers thought the students were trying to convince us to be communists. And all we wanted to do was listen to music.  >> Right. Yeah. So, essentially. Yeah. I mean, that's, that's really interesting. Thank you for sharing that. Just because I think that also reflects the nature of the campus. The way that you describe it, as people who just wanted to go about their daily lives and make friends and, you know, maybe go to parties and. I mean, very similar to what it is today.  >> Probably yeah. I understand the, that the percentage of African American students is back to approximately what it was prior to the Special Educational Opportunity Program. So, the change was only temporary.   >> That's unfortunate. But, you know, speaking from my experience, you know, I think, I've seen more diversity here than I expected. Certainly, I mean, everywhere I go it's kind of never as much as I would like for it to be. But, you know, I think. I think I was just glad to see people who look like me. I can't imagine what it must have been like at the time, you know, for African American students or otherwise, who might have felt like they were completely unrepresented. Like they had no place or voice and perhaps finding that voice with students like you, who would listen and interact with them. The same way that you did with the Soviet students. So, that's quite inspiring. But just to sort of, I mean, ask, is there any suggestions or advice that you would offer to current Penn State students knowing all you know and sort of looking at everything in hindsight?  ^M00:46:49 ^M00:46:53 >> Well one thing that bothers me is the, well the Penn State of today is educationally higher than it was when I went there. And you can get an incredible education at Penn State. But when it comes down to just learning to live with and understand people who are different, it's just not happening. It's not. It's like everybody is in their own universe and they could care a less about anybody else. I like the [inaudible]. They do raise a lot of money for charity. And they do wonderful things. But it seems like there was more activism on campus back in the 60's than there is now.  >> I mean, I.  >> And there was a lot in the 60's.  >> Yeah. So, you encourage more activism then?  >> I would encourage a lot more activism. And find out what's really going on and forget about what political party your parents were and what they taught you. Read about what each party stands for and is doing. And make your own decisions.  >> Absolutely. I mean that's what you come to college for, right? Is to sort of educate yourself.  ^M00:48:31 ^M00:48:35 So, yeah.  >> Well, ultimately.  >> Yeah.  >> There's a. Students should take much more advantage of study abroad activities. Study abroad activities are so enlightening. I know a lot of students can barely afford tuition, let alone the extra cost of living in another country for a semester. But they really should look into it and try to do it.  >> Well, I for one am definitely going to be taking that to heart. I mean, I'm still a freshman. But definitely in the future. I'll make sure to, I'll make sure to go abroad and definitely your encouragement will make it a certainty for me. But yeah, I mean if there are any sort of lasting remarks you had? Or anything else you wanted to share, you know. That's pretty much all the questions that I have.  ^M00:49:29 ^M00:49:33 [ Laughter ]  ^M00:49:35 Alright. Great. I think.  >> I think I've come full cycle when I, when it comes to Penn State Football. When I was a freshman, I used to go to all the games. By the time I was a sophomore, I thought they were idiots that were interested in football. And I don't think I went to hardly any games my sophomore, junior or senior year. Maybe one or two. And now, I don't, I watch all the games on TV.  ^M00:50:10 >> Well, I mean, actually I should probably start getting into football, because I know. I mean, it's such a big part of the culture here. And I imagine it was just as big a part in the 1960's. So.  >> Oh yeah.  >> Actually, that's actually really interesting. I mean, was. I mean, were the stadium. Because I know that the stadium was a little different then, right? And the sort of arena that people gathered around was perhaps a little smaller. I mean, is that, is that something that you've noticed any change in? Or has it been relatively constant?  >> It's been relatively constant. Sure, the stadium is larger. But the student body is larger.  >> Right. Yeah. So, yeah. Thank you for your time. Thank you for talking to me. It was very interesting.   >> I hope I have provided you with some insights that you didn't have before. I don't know if I was helpful or not.  >> No, definitely. Your experiences are, I mean, so interesting. And I feel like I haven't delved into them enough. But I mean it, I'm just so grateful for. I mean, because your case is particularly interesting stepping away from your background and your parents and discovering your own political identify. And finding your own niche, so, in a matter of speaking. It's really inspiring and I hope to do the same. So, thank you.  >> I come. I'll be there to mentor political science students who are getting close to graduation, juniors and seniors. I don't know whether they'll be any sophomores in it or not. They do. The Political Science Department does this once a year in April. And students meet with alumni who were political science majors when they were at Penn State. And we talk about their career interests and things that they might want to consider. And things [inaudible] and things like that. Maybe I'll get to meet you on April 19th.  >> Yeah, I'll definitely look for that. I didn't know you were coming. So, I'll definitely be there. I'll see you there.  >> I'll be there the 19th, 20th and 21st. The 19th for the mentoring. And then the 20th they're having some kind of finale to a fundraising effort that they had. And then the 21st, I don't know if you're aware that Susan Welsh is retiring after 27 years as the Dean of the College of Liberal Arts. And they're having a banquet to honor her. And I adore that woman, so I want to attend that.  >> Alright. Well, I'll definitely see you there. So, thank you for your time.  >> Okay.  >> Thank you.  >> Alright. Bye-bye.  >> Goodbye.   

Interview by Daniel Morrissey

^B00:00:15 >> Hello. ^M00:00:17 ^M00:00:28 Hello testing, one, two, three, roger. >> Hello. >> Yup. >> OK. >> Perfect. >> Go ahead. >> Finally be doing this. >> Yeah. >> How's your morning going? >> So far pretty good. >> Good to hear.  So basically we're just going to-- I have bunch of questions about, you know, your common late '60s, 1968 themes.  And my question is basically just-- is around Penn State and your experience at Penn State, you know, what those factors going around like the political climate, the protest, generation gap, those kind of things. >> OK. >> Yes.  So if-- before we jump right in, the first question I have for you is just how would you describe the political atmosphere around campus during your time at Penn State overall? >> Well, it was actually-- it was a changing political atmosphere.  I started school in 1967, in the fall of '67.  And when I got to school, the-- I would say the campus was a pretty quiet place.  I remember having-- my mother bought me four button-down Oxford cloth shirts, one in yellow, one in pink, one in blue and one in white.  I had these four jacket, I had a tie, I had a couple pairs of khaki slacks.  I didn't have jeans at that time.  And it was '67.  You know, Vietnam, of course, was starting to become a big deal but it hadn't quite got there.  I do believe it was before Sergeant Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band.  And it wasn't until I would say '68, '69 that the-- that there was a noticeable awareness on campus of Vietnam.  And, of course, civil rights was an issue.  But, you know, we know-- I don't really recall any demonstrations regarding civil rights, but I do remember that there was a lot of political activism and that was burgeoning at that time.  It wasn't until 1970 when the Kent State shooting occurred. >> Yeah. >> And that was in the spring term of 1970.  And, of course, in those days we're on the trimester.  So we had three ten-week terms. >> OK. >> In the spring term of 1970, Kent State occurred and there were campus riots all over the country.  I don't really recall Penn State having any riots but there's certainly were vocal demonstrations and we were given the option, the entire school was given the option of taking your midterm grades and then spending the rest of the term attending seminars, you know, medit-- they're meditating on the war, contemplating on peace and many, many people opted to do that.  I opted to do it.  But to be quite frank, I didn't do a lot of the seminar attending or meditating.  I play golf during those last five weeks. >> Yeah.  So you kind of touched on it but will you say that there was a star contrast in the kind of political activism and just how present politics was and, you know, politics in a broad sense including Vietnam, you know, including that kind of stuff. >> Go ahead, I'm sorry, continue. >> That there was a bigger presence like you said around '68, '69 and not just earlier in the '60s but really anytime in your life up to that point. >> Well, in a couple things.  One is there was a real transition in the '60s from the old-- actually a transition from what life must have been like in the '50s, you know, for college students.  And in the '60s, it was a very conservative atmosphere from-- and I'm not talking about college now. >> Yeah. >> I'm talking-- before when I was in high school, it was extremely conservative where I went.  And as I was indicating to you when I first got on campus in 1967, it was also conservative.  Things started to become more radical as time went on.  Now I'm not the greatest witness for this because I was not an activist and I spent most of my time, you know, playing golf and enjoying a social life outside of fraternity life.  Now, you know, fraternity life was also interesting.  When I first got there in 1967, basically it was extremely difficult for a freshman to get a date unless he was attached to a fraternity. >> OK. >> And so even though my friends and I had came to school with four very close high school friend and five of us had agreed that in the second year in our sophomore year, we would get an apartment because at Penn State at that time and I don't know if it's still the case, all freshmen had to live in the dormitories. >> Yeah.  So that's the case. >> And of course in the '60s, all dormitories were-- no dormitories were coed. >> Yeah. >> I don't know if that's still the case, but we had all agreed that we were going to be independence and that we were going to go in an apartment that we didn't want to pledge and we didn't want to have any part of fraternity life.  I was willing to stick with that promise but my four friends who are going to be my roommates got extremely frustrated with the social scene and we all rushed fraternities.  We rushed fraternities, we've got bids in the same house and we were ready to pledge when one my very closest friends had seconds thoughts because the guy who was now going to be the pledge master had been somebody doing rush.  My friend had bidden $400 playing pool and it became very clear to my friend that the pledge master was going to take out that 100-- those hundreds of dollar out of his hide during the pledge, you know, pledging period.  And so he depledged immediately and I depledged immediately.  And then it took-- my other three friends, I would say probably two or three weeks, it was after the first cleanup after the first horrendous all night party that they depledged as well.  And so then the next year, we're all roomed together and we stayed roommates for-- until we graduated.  But it-- I was a political science major. >> Yeah. >> And I couldn't stand political science, I like history more than political science but I had it in my head that in order to go to law school political science was the way to go, so I stuck it out in political science.  But I was not a political activist under any circumstances.  I was-- I read the New York Times everyday and the Daily Collegian everyday but I did not get involved in political activism. >> That's-- I actually-- I applied to Penn State as a PolySci major because I intend on going on law school after and then I switch to history because I was just like-- I like history classes better.  It's fine. >> You know what, you're very, very smart.  And the truth of the matter is every elective that I took in history, I aced. >> Yeah. >> And every single political science course-- I took nine political science courses, I got one A and eight Bs. ^M00:10:02 >> I would love to talk about just being a history major, PolySci all day but one thing, you know, you brought up having a partner with your friends going off Campus as a sophomore I know for this class we've looked at the regulations put on dorms and specifically the women on Campus and that, you know, they had to live on the dorm all four years at point in the '60s.  I know that that was in large part changing right around the year.  So-- >> Yeah.  That changed.  When I got up there, the freshman had to live in the dorms but I know that I met my wife, the woman who is currently my wife and became my wife right after I graduated college.  I met her at Penn State and I know that she and her friends rented apartments.  I think in their junior year. >> OK. >> And my wife is-- you know, my wife started at Penn State the same year that I did.  So I think by '69, I think '69 or '70, they-- probably in '69 I think, once you are finished your freshmen year, I think you're permitted to live in the dorms.  I live off campus rather.  Now, the sororities, however, were all in the dorms. >> Yeah. >> I don't think there were any independent sorority houses off campus. >> Yeah.  That's still the case which is kind of crazy. >> Yeah, [inaudible]. >> But did it seem like women were kind of-- it seem like there was a gap, gender gap on campus because in terms of opportunities, maybe, internships jobs, that kind of stuff? >> I had no idea.  My wife was a speech and hearing-- speech pathology and hearing major.  And she never had any difficulty in getting place in graduate school, getting-- or getting jobs. >> OK.  Like you said you're political science major, did the kind of events of the times come up a lot in class and do you think being a PolySci major at that time affected how you were looking at everything going on. >> I'm going to say that you would not have known anything what's going on in the world in the political science classes I took. >> Really. >> Yeah. >> Wow, that's very interesting. >> Yeah, I now took a 400 level of history course in Vietnam.  And that was, you know, obviously quite relevant. >> Yeah. >> And I actually wanted it.  I knew that I didn't want to go into the service to serve in Vietnam.  And so therefore I felt obligated to learn about it so that I would have some, you know, some good reasons for not wanting to go. >> Yeah.  When it comes to Vietnam, I was thinking that being on campus at Penn State must a be weird spot to be in because you have your, you know, kind of typical college protesters and you have, you know, your rebellious college students that you think of but at the same time Penn State especially back in the late '60s had a huge ROTC purchase.  So was it-- >> Yes. >> Was there a clash there or was, you know-- >> You know what, not that I witnessed, not that I witnessed.  Now, I had a very close friend in high school who went to the University of Wisconsin at Madison. >> Yeah. >> And that place a tinderbox.  That was a hot bed of student activism.  And I don't know whether they had a Roche program or not there, but if they did, I would imagine that that would-- it would have been conflict but I really don't recall any conflict at Penn State. >> But there were-- did it seem like there were a lot of guys there for ROTC.  And I mean did they seem, you know, ROTC is big here now but were-- it's not like the US has major combat operations, you know, really outside Afghanistan or some other Middle East countries.  So did those guys think about or ever talked about, you know, the fact that they were heading to Vietnam pretty soon? >> I never met a person that was in ROTC-- >> Oh wow. >> -- when I was at Kent State. >> OK. >> I mean I knew they were there, but in my dorm every-- there was-- there were no-- the people that I was friendly with, nobody was involved in ROTC. >> So you would say that when it came to Vietnam, the Campus as a whole was more against the war?  In-- >> And I-- Yeah.  It's hard to say that.  It really is hard to say.  I didn't-- no, the culture was changing-- >> Yeah. >> -- as a result of the war.  So there was a lot there.  You know, when I first got to Penn State, and never you're going to heard of marijuana, didn't know anything about it.  I barely experience that during my four years there because I was very concerned about getting busted and not being able to go into law school.  So I was a law abiding citizen.  But when I got to Penn State, I had a hair cut, you know, and it wasn't a crew cut but you could see my ears.  After my freshman year, you couldn't see my ears.  My hair was hanging down over my collar as were all my friends and those who could grow mustaches and beards.  Grew mustaches and beards and there was a lot of people that I associated with where all into peace because they all didn't want to have to go into the service.  And, of course, we had student requirement and then we were fortunate enough.  But at least I was fortunate enough to get a very high lottery number when the lottery was instituted.  And I think-- I don't remember if that was-- I think that had to be in 1970 that the lottery was instituted. >> So with deferments for the most part dropping off and basically ending after 1967.  You know, that kind of catches you right in the middle of it.  So it was-- >> No, no, the student departments stayed.  You got is anybody that was attending college full-time qualified for student deferment.  Yes. >> OK.  But what I was going to say is the-- so it was very evident that the counterculture movement was not only present but growing, would you say every, you know, every-- >> Oh yeah definitely, definitely.  Definitely.  And you got to remember there was The Beattle.  When I first came to Penn State, the music that we were listening to was Motown.  We listen to the Temptations, Smokey Robinson and the Miracles, Smokey Robinson and the Miracle.  The Four Tops, the Supremes.  I wasn't crazy about the Supremes, but we love the Tops, loved the Temptations.  And that was in 1967, a little bit of Simon and Garfunkel.  I was actually into folk music myself, so I was into Peter, Paul and Mary, I was into Simon and Garfunkel, Phil Ochs, there was a singer songwriter and a big protester of the war.  Tom Paxton also but I didn't really listen to the Beatles until Sergeant Pepper's came out.  And I don't think Sergeant Pepper's came out until like, I think, '67 maybe '67, '68. >> Yeah.  It was 1967' White Album and Abbey Road followed up. >> Yeah. >> It was Abbey-- >> And that was the last-- and then "Let it Be".  And I think it was probably '69 and '70, but with a drug culture, the marijuana culture, people were listening to Jefferson Airplane. >> Yeah. >> Movie Blues, Dave Mason' "Traffic".  You know, the musical-- the culture changed. >> Did-- You mentioned marijuana, did you-- things like LSD, others like developed drugs.  I mean, even other harder-- did you see that or was it, you know? >> I had friends who experimented with LSD.  And, you know, then they also experimented with speed when they were pulling all nighters for, you know, final exams. >> Yeah. >> But I did not get involved in any of that. >> Yeah. >> And in my house, you know, in our apartment I didn't really see any of it.  It might be the guys that were participating were in other people's apartment. ^M00:20:03 >> Because, you know, that drug culture was rather new, did it seems like Penn State or, you know, State College Police, whatever, did it seem like they were prepared for the enforcement of that kind of stuff? >> You know, that's a very good question.  And I don't really know the answer to it.  I know that-- I know that one of the-- one of my friends who was a, who was going to go to law school and will actually wind up going to law school happen to have the misfortune of being in a department that was rated by Narcs and a huge stash of hash and grass was found near my buddy who was sleeping.  And it wasn't his.  And he, you know-- needless to say, he was extremely frightened but nothing came of it as far as-- and as far as he was concerned.  So, yeah, I don't really know the answer.  I'm sure there was a lot of paranoia just because I think that when you smoke pot, you can become paranoid. >> Yeah. >> But it was-- yeah.  It was pretty-- I would say by the time I was a junior, it was prevalent.  And so, therefore, I can't imagine that there was very strict enforcement. >> Did you-- there are a lot of live music back on campus like between people just, you know, small student groups playing themselves but even getting, you know, figure names, obviously not The Beatles, The Stones, stuff like that. >> No.  You know what, well, we had-- we had Simon and Garfunkel, we had Blood, Sweat & Tears.  Smokie came up, Smokey Robinson and the Miracles, Chicago played trying to hit.  You know, all these with the big music events and they were all held at Rock Hall. >> Oh, wow. >> Yeah.  There was no Bryce Jordan Center then.  And so, the major performers came to campus and played.  There was at least one solid, you know, big time concert a term.  And now as far as the-- you know, as far as student music, students playing, I assume that there are-- things were going one in the bars. >> Yeah. >> But, I never went to the bar.  I didn't-- I turned 21 about, I would say a week before I graduated, and I was a very young looking 21-year-old.  And I never had-- I never had an LCB card and they were, you know, they-- I think the bouncers were pretty strict about, you know, at least when it came to boys.  I'm thinking they let the girls in but when it came to boys, I think they were pretty strict and not allowing them to come in.  So, when I was-- I didn't really go to a bar at Penn State until the summer of the year I graduated because my wife was still up there and then I was 21.  And then, yeah, there was a lot of music. >>Yeah.  So, we've talked about the political environment on campus, the rise of counterculture and the drug scene on campus while you're here, you talking to, you know, potentially like high school friends or people at other schools, do you think Penn State was, you know, pretty inline with other schools around the country during that time? >> I would say-- It's already hard to say like I said it was nowhere, it was nothing like Madison, like University of Wisconsin at Madison. >> Yeah. >> I had a buddy that went to American University in Washington DC.  I think that they were far more advanced than Penn State was.  I have friends who went to Temple in Philadelphia.  And again because they were in a major city, I think that they were far more advanced as well. >> OK.  Sorry. >> When I say advanced, I mean advanced is degenerates is what I'm talking about. >> Oh, OK.  So, yeah, you said you didn't personally get involved with any sort of activism.  And so the people around you like how-- like-- I mean even people around your apartment building like, you know, not just your friends but were there a lot of people seemingly, you know, active and into politics and into current events. >> No.  They really weren't.  There were slugs and by and large, they-- after-- I would say by the end of my sophomore year, they were way more into grasp than they were into anything that was going on in the world. >> So, in your opinion, the counterculture almost lost touch with what it kind of started about and it became more about the drugs and the music and the partying then, you know, that piece mentality that, you know, kind of begun with. >> Well, I'm not-- you know, I don't think-- I actually don't think that there is a-- I don't think that one beget the other. >> OK. >> I think that people that were concerned about the war concerned enough to actually do something about it or try to do something about it, I think that that have nothing to do with the drugs to be honest with you. >> OK. >> I think that the drugs became-- you know, when I say drugs, I'm really talking about marijuana.  And I think marijuana just became popular with-- as a part of the pop culture as opposed-- in my view as opposed to political activism. >> And that was something that will you say you've never really encountered before coming to Penn State? >> Oh, yeah, definitely not.  When I was in the high school, there was been-- nobody even talked about marijuana.  And Marijuana was refer, was the gateway drug to heroin. >> Yeah. >> People were sacred to death of drugs.  There was absolutely zero illegal drugs in my high school experience. >> And so do you think that the timing of your 10-year at Penn State in Happy Valley, do you think because you're at the school during such a transcendent time, do you think that has affected the rest of your life and like how? >> It-- I'm going to go with no.  And it hasn't really affected.  Now, not really, it hasn't.  I-- as-- like I said, I was a relatively-- I didn't go to football games past my freshmen year.  I paid attention to football but I didn't really care that much-- >> Yeah. >> -- about the games.  I played golf.  I had a serious girlfriend.  I'd make sure that I-- my grades were good enough so that I could get into Law School.  I was really-- I would say, no, the Penn State experience really did not, it was fun.  It was great, it was great being on my own.  And you know, living without parents in the house, that was fabulous.  It was great being able to play poker any time you wanted to and go to bed any time you want to.  That kind of freedom was terrific.  But that wouldn't-- I wouldn't had that freedom whether I went to Penn State in '67 or '57 or '77. >> Yeah.  Do you see any parallels in the political climate and just between, you know, the late '60s or early '70s and, you know, 2016, 2017, 2018 with the-- just the divisiveness that you kind of see everywhere? >> Well, because I don't remember, nothing was as divisive as the war-- at that period in the '60s, nothing.  And the student activism in the '60s does not compare to the-- whatever these students are doing today.  And I'm not entirely sure what they're doing today, never.  We-- In 1968, Martin Luther King was assassinated. >> Yeah. >> June of '68, Bobby Kennedy was assassinated and Martin Luther King was in April of '68.  In March of '68, Lyndon Johnson announced that he wasn't going to run for a second full term. ^M00:30:01 Eugene McCarthy ran in the New Hampshire primary back in I guess in February of '68 and had an upset second place finish.  You know, he did way better than was anticipated, so there was great upheaval and in politics and, of course, it was all centered on the war and civil rights but at that point, mostly a war.  And kids, because of the draft everybody had the potential to have skim in the game. >> Yeah. >> And therefore people went out of their way to make sure if they could that the world would change so that they did not have to go away and being killed or maimed in Southeast Asia.  I don't see that today. >> Yeah. >> Yeah.  Things are [inaudible] and I have no idea what's going on in campus.  One of the things that I find extremely disheartening is what I have seen in my own children who are going to-- or adults now but-- and you know all fine but nobody cares about history, nobody cares about learning about history.  And that's fairly troublesome to me.  I don't know how things are at Penn state.  By the way, I'm involved with the Richards Center for 19th century history. >> OK. >> You know that that I'm the chairman of the board of visitors for the Richard Civil War Center. >> OK.  Yeah, I'm not too familiar with it, but-- >> Yeah.  Well, that's out in the history department.  And what area of history are you most interested in? >> I'm only a freshman so I mean definitely American history because I do want to go to law school after so I feel like that would help the most. >> Yeah.  That one makes sense. >> Yeah. >> Well, you'll run-- you'll come across the professors that teach 19th century history no doubt, and 19th century American history important. >> Yeah. >> And that's-- I've been very active at Penn state working with the History Department, working with the Richard Center which is in the-- it focuses on the civil war and the long 19th century. >> Yeah.  So-- I mean, you talked about-- you know, you think the problem now is that kids don't really care about history and stuff so I mean, you know, I definitely do see that, but-- >> I can tell you this, all right, I have a partner in my own law firm. >> Yeah. >> And I've hired younger lawyers, younger lawyers over the last 30 years.  They are by and large the ones that will raise, and went to high school in the '80s, '70s and the '80s, are ignoramuses when it comes to history. >> Yeah. >> You know, there was a time you couldn't graduate high school.  In Pennsylvania if you didn't take American history in 11th and 12th grades, that apparently is not required anymore.  And that's sad >> Yeah.  And I'm from New Jersey and I know that they get around their history requirements a lot and in favor of like other things which I was never in favor of.  But back to Penn state in 1968, did it-- were students kind of all on board with McCarthy and, you know, Kennedy before him?  Did it seem like people were missing election-- >> When you say Kennedy, what Kennedy you're telling me, you're talking about John Kennedy? >> Yeah, no, sorry Bobby Kennedy before he got assassinated. >> Well, Bobby Kennedy actually announced his intention to seek the nomination after Jim McCarthy won the New Hampshire primary. >> Yeah. >> He was not a candidate at first and he kind of allowed Gene McCarthy to become his stalking horse and when he saw that-- how vulnerable Lyndon Johnson was then he decided to announce.  Yeah.  I would say the sense on campus was definitely; at least my sense on campus was that the students were supporters of anybody that was going to get us out of the war. >> So did it seem like there are a lot of people on Nixon side of things or was that not at least vocalized as much? >> I never-- I would say I know that they-- there was a young republicans, you know, there-- >> Yeah. >> -- it was a chapter, whatever they're called, the young republicans.  But now I would say that my sense of it was that most people favored the democrats in the '68 race, most people favored the democrats.  Now, keep also in mind that in 1968 you had Kennedy assassinated you still had the, it was before they revamped the rules, the nominating rules.  And so, you still had the smoke filled room back room political maneuvering to get the nomination, then Hubert Humphrey was the, got the nomination and 68 conventions, specially the one in Chicago, the democratic convention was, you know, was a hellscape.  So there was a lot going on.  There was a lot going on during that time. >> Yeah the-- >> And nothing like that-- >> The real-- >> And Bush called--  >> Sorry. >> Yeah go ahead. >> The really mainstream, you know, whether student protest like Chicago or even stuff like woodstock, did you know people going to those things or, I mean I've asked-- I would ask now did you see it on people's Instagrams and you know-- because you're-- you see stuff like that whenever people go to these major events, but did, did you see people, you know, Woodstock, Chicago, even a lot of the other stuff, out on the west coast did you know people really going out to that stuff and-- >> I have not-- none of my friends, none of my friends. >> OK.  I don't have-- I don't have too much left for you.  I mean you touched the-- you touched at the begging that the civil rights protests and conversation was not really as present at Penn state-- >> Yeah.  I didn't get the-- you know I'm sure there was some activism.  And I am sure that there were-- I'm sure there were liberal attitudes towards civil rights, but civil rights by-- I remember the Voting Rights Act was in 1965, Lyndon Johnson but by 1967 civil rights, you know the civil rights legislation was pretty much baked into the cake.  I don't know what the African-American community, student community, was it Penn State?  I don't have a-- I know there were African-Americans definitely there but for example nobody in my dorm when I started in '67 everybody was white.  Except, I think I had one football player who made it, an African-American but, I'm sure it was an issue but it was not nearly the issue that the war was. >> Do you remember at the time ever even thinking about the lack of diversity or was that just-- so, you know, almost not a priority at that time for people, like it just wasn't on people's minds, you know. >> Well, you know, it certainly wasn't on my mind but Penn state, they're-- I don't think, I don't think that there was any discrimination at all in the admissions process of the Penn state. >> Yeah.  Yeah.  I think-- I think that's all I have for you.  I mean if there's anything else you want to talk about or say, get off your chest, feel free. >> Out of my chest.  Yeah.  It's about time in so many years.  Now, actually I'm sorry, I'm sorry that I was the slug that I was because I can't give you any of the juicy stuff. >> No, no, it's fine. >> Because I didn't witness it. >> No, you were very helpful. >> I could make it up, but that probably wouldn't be fair to the-- it wouldn't be fair to the goals of-- taking an oral history. ^M00:40:08 >> Yeah. >> So you're interested in going to law school, that's great. >> Yeah, yeah, definitely. >> That's definitely my niche, you know, history, law, politics is definitely a path I would. >> Good.  Well, I wish you a lot of luck.  And what-- do  you-- did you have Professor Blaire yet for history? >> No, no, I have not. >> OK.  Well, he's the guy that's-- he's the director of the Civil War Center and he is terrific. >> Yeah.  I'll definitely look into that at some point.  I mean I wasn't familiar with their coming in but I'll definitely, I'll definitely check it out because it's definitely something out like-- >> And what is this project that you're doing?  What is this about and for what course? >> So there's actually a class on 1968 this semester as a 50th anniversary of it.  So, yeah, our big project for the course is to do an oral history with an alumni from the time.  And, you know, kind of week by week, we just break down the whole year on a world scale, so, you know, not just college campuses in the US and Vietnam, but we also talk about, you know, the-- like situations in Nigeria and student movements in China and France, you know, stuff that doesn't-- we don't usually talk about or see as much, so it's very interesting. >> Yeah.  That sounds great.  And is that a, is that a 100-level course or-- >> Yeah, it's a 100-level, 197. >> Yeah.  Well, that sounds great. >> Yeah. >> Do you have to write a paper? >> Yeah.  I have to write a followup on this. >> Yeah.  Yeah.  I wish you a lot of luck with that. >> Thanks. >> What do you have coming up?  What's your next history course?  What are you going to take? >> That's actually a good question.  I have to meet with my advisor at some point in the next couple of weeks to see what I'm going to take.  I don't-- I actually don't know.  I mean, I'll take probably whatever my advisor says should be next up.  I definitely-- even thought I don't intend on focusing it-- focusing on it from what I want to do, I definitely do want to take some more, more like ancient history, even medieval history just more for fun, if anything-- >> Yeah, I know. >> -- because I don't have as much background in those time periods. >> Yeah.  That's great.  Yeah, there was a professor who I think his name was Speelvogel [assumed spelling] who I don't believe is around anymore.  And I think we used to teach a course in like with-- I think we used to teach the renaissance and then he also taught medieval history in sort of a 100-level course, that was great.  It's fascinating stuff.  Now, I'm sure you're going to want to take constitutional history. >> Yeah, definitely.  Yeah.  There is that and then there's-- I think there's a class that's just called like introductory history of law, so I definitely, definitely will be taking that at some point.  There's-- There are a lot of history classes now that have very law centric focus, more like 300, 400-level classes, so I'll definitely be taking those in a couple of years. >> Well, that's great. >> Yeah. >> All right. Well, Daniel, if you think of anything that you want me to make up, call me, go ahead and do it. >> Definitely. >> And it was-- if you think of something that you needed to ask me that you didn't, don't hesitate to call, OK? >> All right.  Thank you very much.  This was good. >> And by the way, where in Jersey did you grow up? >> I'm from Bergen County. >> Oh OK. >> Yeah.  Right outside the city. >> All right.  Well, good luck to you. >> All right, thanks.  Have a good day. >> All right, you too.  Bye.

Interview by Elondra Stubbs

>> Hi.  My name's [inaudible].  I'm a first-year freshman student here at Penn State.  I'm a division of undergraduate studies major here.  And I am currently talking with [inaudible] Santino, right?  

^M00:00:21 [ Inaudible ] ^M00:00:24

>> Say that one more time?  

>> Yes, it's Trucilla [assumed spelling] Sabapino -- S-a-b as in boy a-p-i-n-o.  That's how I always spell it when people ask me.  

>> Oh, that's good.  That's nice.  And what do you do currently right now?  

>> Right now I'm a college professor, assistant professor in music at Kutztown University of Pennsylvania.  I've been there since 1994.  So I've been there about 24 years.  I'm in the music department.  I teach voice -- that's my primary teaching duty, private voice, studio voice.  And I do some classes -- Voice class I and II.  And I teach all of the diction courses.  And occasionally I'll teach Introduction to Music.  

>> Oh, that's awesome.  Actually, what made me want to, like -- what interested me about you when I was, like, reading was that, like, I used to sing in the choir growing up --^*  

>> Really?  

>> -- in high school.  Yeah.  And Kutztown, I don't live too far away from Kutztown.  I come from, like, Montgomery County.  

>> Oh, okay.  

>> [Inaudible] area.  So yeah, I wasn't, like, too far away with school.  So it was, like, pretty interesting.  So I thought that was cool.  What made you want to pursue a music degree, like, at Penn State?  

>> Well, I always -- I always liked music.  I took piano when I was young for that, from the time I was five until the time I was around 15, which was really fortunate because now I can accompany my students reasonably well when I teach.  And they've held me in very good stead all these years.  But I didn't start out in music at Penn State; I started out just in liberal arts.  I hadn't declared a major.  And I took a calculus course my first semester, which sounds crazy.  But I had had advance mathematics in high school.  So I was kind of searching around for what I wanted to do.  And I took the math course, but I also auditions for the choir.  And I got in the meditation chapel choir, I think it was.  Dr. Case was the director at the time.  And I did okay in math, but it really wasn't something I wanted to do.  And then my brother, who was also at Penn State at the time and he was a few years ahead of me, was singing with a group called the Penn State Singers under the direction of Raymond Brown.  And he said that the Singers was look for another soprano.  So I made an appointment and decided I was going to audition for the group.  So this would have been winter semester.  We were on a three-semester system then -- fall, winter, spring.  They were ten weeks each.  And the classes were, like, 75 minutes long three days a week.  Whoa.  Really heavy-duty stuff.  So I went up and I auditioned for him.  And I was a fabulous [inaudible] reader.  And I really sing well even though I wasn't formally trained.  He looked at me and he said, "When are you going to start taking voice lessons?"  And that was it.  So I actually switched into music my sophomore year.  And I took from him -- from my entire career at Penn State when I did my BA and my master's there, he was my primary voice teacher.  And he was a terrific guy, just terrific.  And we stayed in touch for the rest of his life.  I think he died in 2001 or 2002.  And wonderful man, taught me a lot.  And he gave me so many opportunities to perform.  I was kind of, like, his star soprano at the time, so I got to do a lot of the shows with the choir.  And he had this wonderful group called Penn State Singers.  And once I was into my master's degree, he would feature me and showcase me a lot with -- as a soloist with Penn State Singers and with the University Chapel Choir.  So it was a wonderful experience.  

>> That's awesome.  

>> Yeah.  

>> So I guess, like, after college, like -- or as you were furthering your education, like, is that when you, like, started to, like -- like, you started to know that you wanted to, you know, teach other people, like, how your, like, mentor, like, your professor, like, had kind of guided you in that way?  

>> I wouldn't say so, not really.  After I got my master's in June of 1970 and I taught for a few years.  And one was a small college in Cresson, PA.  I think it was called Mount Aloysius Junior College.  And I then I taught at the Penn State Altoona campus for a year.  And then I went back for my doctorate.  And believe it or not, I went to Ohio State -- oh -- and got my doctorate at Ohio State.  But I was always a Penn State fan.  In fact, and I hope your listening audience will not shame me too much, I would always cheer for Michigan when Ohio State would play Michigan because I was a Penn State girl always.  

>> That's awesome.  Yeah, I guess we'll talk about Ohio later [Laughs].  

>> Yeah, we don't want to talk about OSU right now, do we?  

>> Oh, no.  At least you know -- me and you both know, we know where you stand.  

>> Yeah.  

>> And future listeners, too.  And I guess, like, since, like, as music has always been, like, you know, part of you're life and, like, really important, what was, like, your favorite music in college or, like, you know, what was --^*

>> I was always classical.  You know?  At Penn State we did operas.  And everything we did was classical.  I did very little Broadway, very little musical theatre.  I've studied, you know, Italian art song, French art song, German art song, English art song, some opera, some operetta.  So it's a very eclectic mix but primarily in the classical venue.

>> Even, like, when, like, you were in class, you weren't studying, like, and, like, there was, like, things going on, on campus or, like, you know, a big rock star just came out, like, you really weren't into, like, rock or anything?  

>> No, no.  I would enjoy it.  I would listen to the popular music of the day.  And there were some things that I liked.  But it wasn't -- wasn't my thing.  Although, and this is hilarious, my brother was in a rock band at Penn State and was there for a great amount of time.  He used to play -- started playing at old [inaudible].  I don't even know if that's there anymore.  And he was at Penn State for quite a few years even while I was there during my master's.  In fact, we both graduated the same day with our master's degree.  And he got his in music education.  And mine was master of fine arts in music.  So I thought that was a really cool coincidence --^*  

>> Yeah.  

>> -- that we both graduated the same day.  

>> Yeah, that's awesome.  

>> But I was always in a classical mode, so to speak.  

>> You know, that's kind of, like -- I wasn't really expecting that, actually.  So it's, like, because usually, like, I guess when you ask that question, like, everyone's like, "Oh."  Like, you know, rock or, like, pop and, like, you know, the Beatles.  

>> No.

>> That's interesting.  

>> I could appreciate the Beatles, but I was never a huge Beatles fan.  I mean, if you want to know what I did for enjoyment for classical music, which sounds really peculiar -- people are going to die laughing when they hear this one -- but I used to like to listen to organ music.  And I could sit there with my eyes closed and I could visualize the pedals -- the foot pedals.  And I have absolute pitch.  So I could tell what the melody line was out of the pedal point in the organ.  It's hilarious to tell people that.  They think, "She's really weird."  But that's what was relaxing to me.  

>> Yeah, oh my gosh, that's awesome.  

>> Yeah, you have to know musicians, we're weird.  We're weird people here.  Very strange.

>> But no, like, it's cool.  And a lot of people, I think, you know, miss out or, like, just, like, don't appreciate classical or, you know, the art that totally goes into making music.  And, you know, just like what goes behind it.  

>> Right.  

>> And all that stuff.  So that's cool that you said that.  What is it?  I guess you still listen to classical music and, like, are really into it?  

>> Oh, yeah.  

>> You know, [inaudible] at your desk grading, then you just, like, listen to it all the time?  

>> Do I listen to classical music all the time?  

>> Yeah.  

>> Not so much now.  When you're teaching it five days a week and when I come home now at night, I rarely listen to anything unless I'm listening to a particular song that I'm going to teach to a student.  I like peace and quiet when I get home.  At Kutztown, my -- the person who has the office next to me is a saxophone teacher.  So I hear him teaching the lessons all day.  And then I'm teaching my voice lessons in another room.  And then person across the hall from me teaches trumpet.  So when I get home at night, it's like, "Peace and quiet, please."  

>> That makes sense.  

>> It's really funny.  I mean, it's funny in a good way.  Because you're just inundated by sounds all day.  And another person across the hall is a piano teacher.  So when I walk out in the hall, I hear trumpet, piano, saxophone.  

>> Yeah, like, music all day.  

>> Cello.  It just wafts forth in the air.  So by the time I get home, it's like, "Peace, nothing."  

>> That's nice.  It's like Pandora's box, and then it's, like, of musical instruments and then you just, like, go home and --^*

>> Right, right.  I go home and it's just like, "I don't want to hear anything except the sound of the television."

>> Yeah, that makes sense.  I guess if I was in your shoes, like, I would agree and just, like, want to just relax.

>> Right.  

>> So, like, when you were, you know, deciding on colleges and, you know, things like that, correct me if I'm wrong, your brother was older than you, right?  

>> Yeah, Mark -- my brother Mark, he's almost four years older.  So I think he started at Penn State in winter of '62.  

>> Okay.  

>> And then I started in fall semester of 1964.  So he was about two -- two or three years ahead of me.  

>> Got you.  So what made you, like, choose Penn State?  Was it your brother?  

>> It was my brother.  That was it.  That's the only college I applied to.  I knew I was going to get in because my SAT scores were high and I was second in my class.  

>> Oh my gosh, wow.  

>> So that's it, Penn State, that's where I'm going.  So there's this little hick of a small town called Wind Gap in Pennsylvania.  And going out to the big college, and I think -- I can't letter how many students were enrolled in '64, but it was huge back then.  And I look back in time now, if I was so bold from this little 17-year-old nerd from Wind Gap, PA going to this big, big school but I was fearless, I wouldn't do it now.  Now if I had my brothers, looking back in time I would have gone to a smaller college.  But back then it was just so great to get out of the house and be free.  It was wonderful.  Plus, my brother was there.  So.  

>> Yeah, that's, like, comforting.  

>> Mm-hmm.  

>> What is it, where is Wind Gap?  Like, what part?  

>> Oh, God, let me think.  It's in the eastern end of the state where -- at the foot of the Poconos.  There's a small, little collection of towns -- Wind Gap, Kennerdell, Bangor, Rosetto, which is an Italian enclave.  It was back in the day.  I'm about -- Wind Gap was about 20 miles from Bethlehem, which is where I live now.  So it was on the outskirts of the Lehigh Valley.  So right now where I live I'm about two and a half, three hours from Penn State, I think, if I had to drive out.  But back when I started then they didn't have Interstate 80 in.  And it was an ordeal to get out there because we had to get off at Lewisburg, where Bucknell is, and then take these winding roads to get up to State College.  So it was no fun back in the early '60s when I was there.  

>> Oh, wow.  So it's like when you're getting out, like, you really mean, like, you guys were getting out.  I know it's, like, you know, once you're out there, you're out there.  You don't come back unless it's break.  Okay.

>> I -- my parents couldn't come out and pick me up every weekend or anything like that.  Once we were there, we were there, and that was it.  Plus, it was so hard to get there at the time before they put the interstates in.  Now it's, you know, we zoom out there and that's that.  

>> Oh, yeah.  I can imagine.  So --^*

>> Yeah.  

>> -- I guess I have to ask you this, if you remember, where did -- when you first -- like, as a freshman coming into Penn State, do you remember where you lived?  Because I know --^*

>> Yeah.  They were called the Pollock Dorms.  

>> Pollock.  Yes.  

>> Yeah, yeah.  Pollock Dorms.  And that was my freshman year.  And --^*

>> Do you remember which building?  

^M00:14:48

>> So that one I don't recall.  But I rushed a sorority my freshman year.  

>> Okay.  

>> And there were about six of us on that floor of that Pollock Dorm, and I don't remember which one.  We all rushed sororities, and we all got in different sororities.  And I got into Pi Psi.  And Pi Psi, their suite was in Heister [assumed spelling], is that what they call it?    Heister Hall.  H-e-i [inaudible] or Heister Hall.  So I didn't have to move far my sophomore year.  I just went into Heister Hall because the Pi Psi suite was there.  And then I lived in the dorm with the Pi Psis for the rest of my undergraduate time.

>> So you just moved buildings within Pollock?  

>> Yeah, I just moved buildings.  So it wasn't as egregious for me to move.  But my one friend was in Kappa Kappa Gamma, and my other friend went into Chi Omega.  The South Halls, I think.  

>> I'm sorry, repeat that?  

>> I can't remember, is Chi O and Kappa?  I think it was South Halls, I could be wrong.  Yeah, I think it was South Halls.  

>> Yeah, so actually, now that you mention that, I live in Pollock, actually.  

>> Okay.  

>> And, like, a lot has changed probably [Laughs].  I don't know when the last time you were here at Penn State.  When was the last time you were here at Penn State?  

>> I'm sorry, what?  

>> When was the last time you visited Penn State?  

>> I have to think.  We went out -- I judged a local pageant.  I was a judge in the Miss America Scholarship Program.  And I judged -- I judged at Penn State.  No, it wasn't.  It was Penn State.

>> Was it?  

>> It was -- I can't remember the local title that they were giving out at the time.  And I know it was winter because my husband drove me, and it was a hellacious drive because it was snowing out.  And I remember that.  And I really can't recall the last time I was out there, it might be ten years now or a little bit more.  

>> Okay.  And I was --^*

^M00:17:00 [ Multiple Speakers ] ^M00:17:02

>> How it's, like, set up now with the living, so there's East Halls where, like, all -- it's, like, all freshmen dorms and there's, like, 14 different buildings.  Yeah.  And then I live in Pollock.  

>> Okay.  

>> And I live, like, right near the dining commons.  And Heister and, like, all those buildings are still very much there.  

>> Okay.  

>> I think I live in a building that was built in 1964.  So it was probably, like, the new renovated building when you first got there.  And South Halls is still, you know -- it's, like, they're renovated.  Some of them are renovated.  And that's where all the sorority housing are.  

>> Oh, okay.

>> That's where they all live.  So that's cool.  

>> Yeah.  East Halls was there when I was there, but it wasn't as big as you say it is now.  I can remember it being there.  I don't even know if I ever went up there, but I know East Halls was there when I started.  And the music department was near the creamery.  

>> Yes, it's still kind of --^*

^M00:18:13 [ Multiple Speakers ] ^M00:18:15

It's, like, near Forum Building?  I'm not sure.  

>> Yeah, the Forum.  

^M00:18:20 [ Multiple Speakers ] ^M00:18:22

Right, right.  

>> Actually, I'm also a tour guide.  So last week I just gave a tour to arts and architecture students, like, accepted students.  And that was pretty cool.  

>> Uh-huh.  

>> It's not something, like, I know too much about.  So it was, like, nice, like, getting to, like, learn things from them and, like, you know, learn things on my own and, like, just, like, show them around.  Because, like, it's not something that, like, you know, everyone, like, exactly, like, knows about, if that makes sense.  Because, you know, Penn State now is, like, kind of taken over by, like, engineers and, like, [inaudible].  So, you know, which I think is, like, kind of unfortunate.  Because, like, I feel like music is still important.  And, like, you know, the arts, you know, it's kind of -- I don't know what it is, but just over time, like, you know, it's like we still appreciate it but, like, not in the same way, if you know my meaning.  But I guess just to get back on track, like, with Penn State --^*  

>> Sure.  

>> -- how was it as, like, a young college female on Penn State's campus?  

>> Different.  When I started we had hours.  You had to be in by 11:30 on the weeknights and 1:00 o'clock on Friday and Saturday morning.  And that was it.  And you had to sign out the sign-out sheet, if you were going to leave and write down where you were going.  Because God forbid anything would happen, people would know where you were.  And that's how regulated it was the first two years I was there.  And that was it.  And if you were going to stay out on the weekend later than 1:00 o'clock, you had to get special [inaudible] become public safety.  Because I remember once we were at a Penn State Singer's party, and I had to ask to be allowed to come in at 2:00 a.m. instead of 1:00 a.m. because we were at my voice teacher's house, who he was the director of Penn State Singers and I wanted to stay longer than 1:00 o'clock in the morning.  And that's what you had to do.  

>> So I'm assuming -- but correct me if I'm wrong -- guys didn't have to do that?  

>> You know what?  I don't know.  I honestly cannot recall.  I don't know if the guys had to sign in or out.  But in a way, if you think about it, it really was a nice way to be protected.  Because if your date knew you had to be back at 11:30 on weeknights and 1:00 on the weekend and you had a lousy date, you could say, "I'm sorry, I have to get back to the dorm by such and such a time."  So it really was a great way out.  

>> That's funny.  Did you use that excuse --^*

>> Yeah, it really was.  

>> Did you use that often?  

>> No, I didn't date that much.  So it was hard to say.  It was nice.  It didn't bother me.  It was protection.  People knew where you were.  And if you were having a lousy time, you could just say, "Hey, it's time to go."  But I'll tell you this, at 10 of 1:00 in the morning in the bright lights of the lobby of the dorm was massive make-out sessions as people were kissing their dates good night.  And that was always hilarious.  Times sure have changed, haven't they?  

>> Yeah, yeah.  They have definitely changed.  

^M00:21:32 [ Multiple Speakers ] ^M00:21:34

Let me see if I, like, understand.  Like, in the building that you lived in, it was only girls?  

>> Oh, yeah, only girls.  There was no cohabitation whatsoever.  And there was resident that lived in an apartment on the bottom floor.  And she was the one that kept her eye on everything.  And as the girls -- as you would come in weeknights or weekends, you know, you had to make sure that you were checked in.  And that was that.  

>> And so did all the -- correct me if I'm wrong, all the guys lived off campus?  

>> No, there were men's dorms there.  

>> Oh, okay.  

>> Yeah, we all had our own separate dorms.  But girls, you live on one floor and guys on the other.  I don't know when that occurred.  But back in the day in '64 and '65, I mean, it was very strict.  It really was.  We had to dress for Sunday dinner.  

>> You guys had, like, Sunday dinners, like, coordinated by your building?  

>> Yeah.  We'd go over the dining halls in the Pollock Dorms.  And you had to wear a dress and heels and hose.  

>> Whoa, that's crazy.  

>> Oh, yeah.  

>> Wow.  

>> And during the week the dress regulations were a little more relaxed.  But you couldn't walk over there on a Sunday afternoon looking like you just rolled out of bed in a pair of PJ bottoms.  Yeah, it didn't exist.  

>> Yeah.  I guess, like, you being a professor at Kutztown and you just -- I mean, I guess, like, you see all different kinds of walks of life.  

>> I see everything, every combination imaginable.  

>> Exactly.  

>> So it really has changed.  So -- and of course, you know, the clothes, everything was so different.  

>> Yeah.  

>> We'd wear nylons and heels -- not high heels.  But you'd wear skirts and hose to classes.  It was just totally different.  I haven't worn a pair of hose in at least a decade.  I mean, I wear slacks to teach, and I don't wear dresses or anything anymore.  It's more casual.  I mean, I don't look like a slob when I teach.  

>> Yeah.  

>> But it's just different.  It's just totally different atmosphere now than it was back then.  

>> Oh, yeah.  

>> We lived -- we lived in a more elegant time in a way.  

>> True.  

>> And because it was more regulated, people had better manners, they were more respectful.  Nowadays some of the students I see, I really wonder what in the world has gone wrong?  

>> Yeah.  

>> But we'll leave it at that.  

>> No, I hear the same things from, like, my parents.  You know?  Because even, like, just, like, them growing up with, like -- you know, and them being, like, you know, raised differently and then, like, trying to pass a gun on us and or they just, like, see the changes in society.  It's definitely like, "What happened?  You know?  Who dropped the ball?"  

>> Right, that's right.  Who dropped the ball?  

>> So I guess, like, besides, like, you know, the dorm -- like, visiting and residence life on campus, how was, like, student life?  [Inaudible], like, you know, the Hub?  

>> Oh, God, the Hub.  I loved the Hub.  We used to call them warm walks.  When it was cold out, you'd walk through the Hub and get warm.  

>> Yeah [Laughs].  

>> And there was a big time to meet in the Hub -- I hope I remember this -- was after fifth period.  Now, you have to remember we were on a tri-semester system and the classes were long.  And I've been racking my, I think fifth period ran, like, quarter of 1:00 until 2:00 o'clock maybe?  Or was that fourth period?  I don't know.  But it was a congregating place for around 2:20 in the afternoon.  If you wanted to see anybody, you went into the Hub and everyone was hanging out at that time.  That was the prime time to hang out.  

>> Oh, yeah, that's so actually interesting that you say that.  I work at Starbucks in the Hub.  

>> Do you really?  

>> Yes [Laughs].  And every time it's a busy time after, like, 10:00 a.m. it seems like because that's when, like, everyone's, like -- it's not, like, just those people who have, like, the 8:00 a.m.'s or the 9:00 a.m.'s; it's like now everyone's up and awake and alive and, you know, lunchtime is approaching.  I guess, like, definitely, like, 11:00.  If it's not busy by 10:00, it's busy by 11:00 and noon.  And it just gets busier and busier through the afternoon.  But I guess, like, the Hub hasn't changed as in, like, providing, like, you know, just, like, entertainment and, like, you know, you know, like, the latest about, like, different clubs on campus and, you know, things like that.  Speaking of clubs, were you involved in any clubs?  

>> Well, clubs?  Not really.  

>> Besides the Singers or?  

>> No, not really.  I was -- I had so many musical activities.  I was singing in choir, I was singing in Singers.  And I was in a sorority, in a social sorority, and that took a lot of my time.  And I was pretty much of a bookworm and a studier.  So if I wasn't singing, if I wasn't at the music building or taking my classes, I was studying.  And that was it.  That was my life.  Music and studying.  And I actually had, would you believe, bowling at Penn State.  And imagine now, this is in 1964, there was no transit on campus.  And I had bowling in Rec Hall at 8:00 o'clock in the morning Monday, Wednesday, and Friday.  And I would have to leave the dorm in Pollock Dorm at 7:30 because it was a 20, 25-minute walk up to Rec Hall.  And I remember that distinctly, especially on cold days.  It was no fun.  

>> Oh, yeah, no.  I don't even like walking that far [Laughs].  

>> Oh, yeah.  And for me to get to the music building from Pollock Dorm, that was --^*

>> Oh, yeah.    >> -- that was a 20-minute walk.  That was a haul, it really was.  Especially in the winter when there was snow and it was cold.  

>> Yeah.  

>> And there was no bus system.  You hoofed it or you didn't go.  

>> Yeah, that's true.  So, like, did you ever, like -- I guess, like, you would say, like, Penn State was a pretty safe campus and, like, you never felt, like, you know, like, any, like -- or besides, like, living, I guess, you never felt any, like, discrepancies or, like, discrimination, like, against, like, you just, like, being a female or, like, you know, anything like that?  

>> Not really.  I was so naive.  

>> Yeah.  

>> And I lived in my own little world of music.  And it was just different.  And I never really noticed any kind of discrimination against women as far as I was concerned at the time.  I'm sure it existed, but I was not aware it.  Not in my little bubble.  And that's what it was, it was a safe little bubble.  So no, not really.  

>> I guess, like, looking back, like, do you, like, now see, like, oh [inaudible], you know, just, like, I don't know how, like, they just, like, treated, like, girls differently on campus.  And it's like, "Well, guys never had to do that."  And it's, like -- you know, it's just like, you know, that standard -- that, like, that double standard.  Like, or sexism, if you will?  Like, you know, do you now, like, look back and you're like, "Oh, wow, like, that was really unfair."  But, like [inaudible].  Like, I guess it's, like, not something that, like, when you're in it, like, you don't really, like, think about it.  

>> Yeah, that's exactly right.  At the time I'm sure it existed, but I didn't really think in terms that way.  I was there to get an education and that was it.  

>> Yeah.  

>> I didn't really think beyond that at the time.  It was I want to get at it -- I don't want to get -- I want to get my education, I want to get my BA.  And I knew I was going to go right on to master's.  There was just no question in my mind.  So that was it.  That was my goal, and that's what I did.  

>> Now, so were you -- like, outside of, like, the college realm, were you, like, I guess familiar with, like, I guess just everything going on off campus as in, like, politics and, like, you know, the different, like, issues going on around that time?  

>> Not really.  When I started in '64 -- now, I know this interview is about world of 1968 and how things started to get torn apart.  But I would say the first two years I was there my freshman and sophomore year, which would have been '64/'65, '65/'66 we were still in la la land.  Even though the War in Vietnam was started to crank up.  At that time I wasn't aware of much.  It started to change when I started my junior year.  And I can't tell you exactly what it was, but there was sense of unease.  We started locking our doors.  And it was different.  It was just a different atmosphere.  

>> Yeah.  

>> I would say my junior and senior year is when I started to sense disturbances and being uncomfortable -- not uncomfortable but things weren't right.  And that's when the war really started to escalate.  And one of my sorority sisters -- and I will never forget this; her fiancee -- and she had this incredibly gorgeous engagement ring.  Her fiancee was in Vietnam and got killed.  And I can remember her sobbing.  And all of us were -- her closest friends in the sorority circling her.  I never forgot it.  

>> Yeah, like, it's, like, one thing for something to be, like, going on around you.  But then it's, like, when a loved one is involved in what's going on around you, like, it hits close to home.  

^M00:32:29

>> It was -- it was really something.  But, again, I was so young and I thought this is horrible, but I wasn't close to her.  I didn't interact with her because she was -- I think she was a senior and I might have, like, a sophomore at the time.  So we never had a connect.  But I remember that scene.  It's, like, certain things in your life you remember vividly.  And that I remembered vividly.  And I'll never forget that.  

>> Yeah.

>> But other things -- the war was going on, but you have to remember, old nerd here, music.  I would go up, I would do my thing, I would sing.  I was active and participating in all my musical activities and what was going on in the world around me really didn't intrude that much.  Certain things did but more I would say when I did my master's.  Because I went right on.  So from '68 to '70 is when things really were heating up in Vietnam.  

>> I guess, like, you just saw -- I'm sorry if I keep cutting you off.  Go ahead.  

>> No, say what you want.  What were you going to ask?  

>> Like, so I guess when you first started, like, as a freshman you go in, like, fearless and, like, just kind of, like, wanting to, like, fly and, like, be free like a bird and flap your wings.  But then, like, as you, like, moved on in your college, like, experience and, like, went on to get your master's at Penn State, you just saw, like, a change in, like, you know, the vibe of just, like, everyone being cautious.  And, like, you know, you can fun but not too much.  

>> That's a good way to put it.  That's a good way to put it, being cautious.  It was just different.  You were aware of the unease and the unrest in the country and the protests.  But it never touched me as much as it did some of the other kids.  And you have to remember, too, Penn State is in the middle of nowhere.  

>> Yeah.  

>> It wasn't Berkeley, it just was different.  And we had SDS there, I remember -- Students for a Democratic Society.  And I'm sure that there were protests, but I never protested anything.  I was too busy with my work.  I just didn't.  Although I remember -- and I think this is when I was doing my master's and it was really weird, we had a meeting of all the music students in the recital hall.  And our department chairs came up and talked to us about what was going on in campus and how we should conduct ourselves and behave and not participate in protests or, you know, destroy property or turn over a Volkswagen or anything like that.  And I remember that it was really weird.  And we just sat there going, "Yeah, okay, okay.  We're not going to get involved."  

>> Yeah.  

>> And I -- I remember that.  And what else stands out?  Not -- I'm trying to think.  Just I left -- my last semester at Penn State I was study abroad.  So I was in Italy from around April until June of '68.  

>> Okay.  

>> And I didn't get back to the States probably until, like, the end of June '68 or beginning of July because I was not at graduation -- my graduation in 1968 because I wasn't home from Europe at that time.  But it seemed that things got more heated from '68 through '70.  That's when things got nastier.  

>> Yeah, yeah.  

>> And I remember -- yeah.  I think -- and I think I have in the back of my brain somewhere at the height of the protest, some group and I don't know who it was, they broke the windows in an auditorium, these big glass windows.  

>> Oh, yeah.  

>> That -- that I remember.  And I don't know what year it was, but I remember that.  Some crowd got crazy and destroyed some of the property.  But I don't think the protests were as bad at Penn State as they were in some other colleges.  That was my recollection.  

>> So would you say that, like, besides, like, your sorority sisters, like, all your friend, you guys were -- you guys were all music majors or, like, something, like, musical in that aspect?  

>> You mean in the sorority?  

>> No, like, outside the sorority, like, your friends.  You guys, like, they were all -- excuse me -- singers or, like, music majors?  

>> Yeah, primarily.  You know, I was close to some of my sorority sisters, but I had my own circle of friends in the music department.  And I hung out with them, you know, as much as I stayed in the sorority.  And I had a really good friend who lived in State College.  And I used to spend tons of time with her, I would stay at her home, oh, I can't tell you how many times.  She was really one of my best buds at Penn State.  And --^*

>> Do you guys still keep in contact or no?  

>> Unfortunately, she passed away two years ago.  And I don't really want to talk about it.  

>> Oh yeah, no, no, no.  We don't have to talk it.  I'm so sorry about that.  On a lighter note, I guess, do you, like, still at all, like, by any chance ever, like, keep up with, like, the updates about Penn State or, like, you know, if you see something on the news, like, about Penn State, you're kind of like, "Let me listen to this," or anything like that?  

>> Not really.  I follow Penn State football a little bit.  I followed it this year because I was so excited.  I thought, "Oh, they might be ranked to go for the national championship."  And then, of course, they lost to Ohio State and Michigan.  Crap.  But I was -- I was there when we won our first Orange Bowl under Joe Paterno.  I think that was '69.  I remember that game distinctly.  I was there when they won both -- well, I was at that time when they won both of the national championships.  That was pretty, pretty great.  It was some of their undefeated seasons.  But I remember that first Orange Bowl as clear as a bell.  

>> Yeah.  

>> It was so exciting.  I think they won by one point.  I even remember who the quarterback was.  I think it was Chuck Burkhart -- that was his name.  And it was just a thrilling, thrilling game.  I can remember I was home at the time.  My brother and I were screaming -- screaming -- watching it on TV.  I was so excited.  I think Penn State won by one point.  It was really something -- or two points.  It was a really barnburner.  They pulled it out at the last minute.  

^M00:40:07

>> That's so cool that you got to witness that.  So have you, like, came up for a football game?  Or, like, no, it was just kind of, like, not the thing after because you got, like, busy?  Or?  

>> No, I think I went to maybe a handful of football games while I was there.  Again, I was never really into it.  And when I did my master's I had an apartment, and I'd watch it on TV occasionally.  But, again, not a real big fan at the time.  Actually, more of a fan after I graduated.  

>> Oh, yeah, true.  

>> Which sound crazy.

>> No.  But, like, a lot of times, like, that happens where, you know, you're just kind of, like, living through it, like, you know?  I don't know.  I guess me as someone who talks to prospective students and acceptance students, it's like, you know, you're trying to, like, reel people in -- like, you know, students in.  And then it's like, "Okay."  And you get used to, like, once you get accepted and you're here and, like, kind of get used to, like, the swing of things.  And, you know, then you're kind of, like, over, like, the whole we are and everything.  And then when you leave, you find, like, more of a appreciation of it.  

>> Yeah, that's exactly right.  

>> Especially when you connect with, like, other Penn State students, it's like you have something to relate to, you know?  Instead of like, "Oh, small talk, like, what's your favorite color?  Oh, what's this?" it's like, "Oh, you want to Penn State?  I went to Penn State, too.  Oh my God, let's talk about it."  And then you end up having two hours' worth of conversation about Penn State.  

>> Right.

>> So.  And who knows?  You guys could have had the same friends or, like, mutual friend, you know?  

>> Uh-huh.  

>> Yeah, I hear, like, it's not the first time I've heard that before.  So I think, like, some people do.  And then sometimes people are, like, just content with, you know -- but I don't like to think about that.  Because I think Penn State's an awesome school, which brings me to my next question.  

>> Sure.  

>> So why did you choose Ohio State?  

>> Because they offered me money.  

>> Oh, okay.  That makes sense.  

>> I went out, I auditioned, and they offered me a teaching associateship, teaching assistant.  And I said yes.  And when I got home, University of Maryland had called me.  But it was too late.  And I had already accepted Ohio State.  So that's where I went for my doctorate.  

>> Did you apply to Penn State for your doctorate?  

>> They didn't have the doctorate that I wanted.  I have a doctor of musical arts.  And at that time in the mid-1970's there weren't a lot of schools that had that degree, but Ohio State did.  So that's why I went there.  

>> That makes sense.  So it's not -- like, if it was up to you, if Penn State had what you wanted, then you would have continued your education [inaudible]?  

>> I probably would have stayed, but they didn't have the degree program at the time.  So it was off to OSU.  That's where I was from '75 through 1980.  

>> So I guess then things, like, started to, like, get different, like, you know, or, like, become different with a different, like, era, different decade.  Like, could you explain, like, I guess maybe the different dynamic or how they were similar or, like, compare them in any way between the two difference campuses, like, Penn State and Ohio State?  

>> Well, Penn State was definitely a better-looking campus.  I always thought -- boy, I'm going to get into trouble here -- Ohio State was not as physically appealing as Penn State.  I always useless used to like Penn State walking up -- we used to call it the mall with all the trees where you walk up to Pattee Library.  

>> Yeah, we still call it that.  Yes.  

>> You still call it the mall?  That's incredible.  And it was so beautiful.  

>> Mm-hmm.  

>> And Ohio State just didn't have anything like that.  And at Ohio State I just felt like a fish out of water, and I truly did not enjoy it there at all.  It was just, I don't know, different.  

>> Yeah.  

>> But I persevered, I got the degree.  And that was that.  But I'll never go back there --^*  

>> Yeah.  

>> -- for any reunion or anything.

>> Yeah, that's true.  Like, you just weren't, like, connected to Ohio State like you were --^*

>> No, I never was, never was connected there.  

>> You know, once you bleed blue and white, you just keep bleeding blue and white.  

>> Yeah, that's true.  That's true.  That's very true.  

>> So, like, I guess, like, since you were in a sorority at Penn State, Thon was still, like, a big thing, right?  

>> What was still a big thing?  

>> Thon.  

>> No, we didn't have that.  

>> Oh.  

>> That came later.  That was later.  Much, much later.  When I was active in the Miss America system, I had judged a local pageant.  And the young lady who won as a Pi Phi.  And that would have been around 2000 maybe, 2001, 2002.  And she was active in Thon.  I remember that.  But we weren't -- we didn't have anything like that back then.  

>> Yeah.  Oh wow, that's awesome.  That's, like, so weird, though.  Like, the competition or, like, that you judge or, like, you're participating and then, like, the winner is, like, from -- you know, you guys are technically sisters.  And it's just, like, so weird.  It's so cool.  

>> It was -- it was weird.  Because we had -- we were at a dual pageant in the Lehigh Valley area.  And she won and I went up to talk to her.  And oh she said, "I'm in Pi Phi."  I said, "Oh my God, so was I."  And we bonded immediately.  And then my husband and I mentored her for about a year or so because she was in the pageant system.  And it was really kind of nice.  

>> Yeah.  

>> I gave her my sorority pin as a going away present.  

>> Oh.  

>> Yeah.  

>> Awesome.  

>> I had my sorority pin and I had converted it into a lavalier that you could wear around your neck.  And after she competed, I gave it to her.  

>> Oh, that's so awesome.  That's so special.  That's definitely, like, a moment I would [inaudible].  

>> I still keep in touch with my very, very best friend from the sorority, and she lives in Washington, D.C.  And in fact, she's the one who told me about this -- this class.  And she was the reason that I signed up for it.  So I think she's going to be interviewed in person.  

>> Oh, that's awesome.  

>> Yeah, yeah.  So I'm still very good friends with her.  She lives in Washington, D.C.  And I haven't seen her in a while, but we keep in touch.  At least we call each other once in a while.  We send Christmas and birthday cards and all of that stuff.  So.  I used to be more in touch with some of the other girls a while ago, but now it's just my one friend.  I really don't know what's happened to a lot of them.  

>> Yeah, sometimes life just gets in the way.  

>> Yeah, it does.  And I keep thinking once I retire, if I ever do, I'm going to look some people up and say, "Hey, how are you?"  

>> Yeah.  That's so cool.  I guess, like, that's, like, you know, one thing, like, that's good with technology, it's, like, you know, as much as it's, like, wreaking havoc amongst young people, you know, it brings people together, too.  

>> That's true.  That's very, very -- that's very true.  I can research almost anybody now and find out where they are and what they're doing.  

>> Yeah.  Exactly.  What is it?  I guess, if you don't mind me asking, do you have any, like, kids or?  

>> No, no.  I didn't get married until I was 49.  No kids.  I knew I didn't want kids from the time I was 16 years old.  And I thought that's not my path in life.  So I was very true to myself and that was that.  I went on, I got my degrees, I taught, met a great guy, got married.  And I wanted to get married before I turned 50.  And I got married October of '96, and I turned 50 in December.  So I made it under the wire.  

>> [Laughs] That's awesome.  

>> Yeah, so --^*

>> It's funny that you brought that up because nowadays it's like I guess women feel like, "You know, before I'm 30, like, all of this needs to happen."

^M00:49:08 [ Multiple Speakers ] ^M00:49:09

Like, you know?  And it's, like, it's nice.  I really -- oh, man.  That -- you just kind of gave me, like, you know, some --^*

>> Who the heck wants to get married before they're 30 and have kids?  Get out and live, women.  Get a life, work, do something.  And then when you find the right person, you get married and settle down.  But I think there should be a law that you don't get married before you're 30.  You got to have that decade to find out quote "who you are" and what you want to do in life and get out there and live a little bit before you get -- I don't want to say tied down because I guess that's not really appropriate anymore or politically correct to say.  But that was always my philosophy.  Enjoy your life for a while.  

>> Yeah.  

>> And back in my day this was the rule, right?  You would get engaged -- no, you'd get pinned your junior year, engaged your senior year, and then you would get married.  And that was it.  

>> What's pinned?  

>> You would raise your -- and it was like you spend four years in college and you get married right away, what are you going to do with the education?  

>> Yeah.  

>> Take a feather duster to it?  I mean, come on.  But you have to remember it was still -- you know, we were just getting out of the '50s and the whole women's lib movement hadn't really started so.  

>> Yeah, that's true.  

>> I think I was a libber before women's lib came into fashion.  So.

>> [Laughs] I guess, like, what was -- let me think.  How old were you or, like, you know, what age, you know, when the color TV's came out?  

>> Oh, gosh, let me think. [Laughs] That's tough.  I can remember, let me see, black and white TV's through the '50s and '60s.  Well, I don't think there were very many TV shows that were in color until the mid '60s.  And since we had no TV's, I don't think I ever watched TV while I was at Penn State.  I watched TV when I went home in the summers.  And I don't think we had -- you know, we didn't have a color TV.  I don't even remember when I had a color TV.  

>> Yeah.  

>> Probably not until the mid to late '70s.  But it was just different then.  And we had no -- you had three channels growing up, that was it.  ABC, NBC, and CBS.  And that was it.  That was it.  Now I look at our TV at home, we must get, like, 500, 600 channels.  It's like, "Oh my God."  

>> And I guess, like, did the ^ITDaily Collegian^NO played a factor?  

>> We used to read the ^ITDaily Collegian^NO.  And, you know, there was no Internet, no cell phone.

>> Yeah.  

>> You wrote letters to people.  You didn't send an email.  And it was totally different.  Computers were just starting to come in when I graduated with my master's in 1970.  I lived in a rooming house that last year of my master's.  And one of the girls in there was in computer science.  They used to call it COBOL or something weird like that.  Punch cards?  Punch cards.  I mean, that's how antiquated it was for us.  

>> That's funny.  

>> But that's the way it was.  It's absolutely incredible.  If you had to go back and live through the '60s, you would die laughing.  That's how bad -- not bad -- but how different it was.  I look at these kids now and it's like, "Oh, if you had a clue."  And they don't.  They don't have a clue, not one.  Some of them.  

>> Yeah, like, I feel like if, you know, somehow I was transported back in time, you know --^*

^M00:51:21 [ Multiple Speakers ] ^M00:51:23

I'm like -- I don't know.  I'm not, like, attached to my phone as, like, some people are.  You know what I mean?  I'm not, like, on it 24/7, have to have it near me, like, all the time.  Like, I can be away from it and, like, enjoy time with people and, like, you know, just, like, talking to people and, like, you know, I'm like -- I'm that type of person.  So, like, I, you know -- like, I even, like, you know, become nostalgic of just, like, how things were.  But, like, no, this is, like, taking it back.  And I believe I would do fine.  But I know those people who probably -- like, I can envision some people right now that, like, I'm friend with, that it's like, "You will not live."  But, like, I feel like if that's, like, you're only choice and, like, all that you're used to, then, like, that's, like, you know, all that, like, there is to offer, then you have to, like, work with what you have, you know, and appreciate what you have.  

>> Right, right.  

>> So.  But I guess, like, just, like, one last question before our interview ends, our time ends.  I guess -- I know you said that you don't really -- like, before, like, learning about this class or anything, you haven't, like, really, like, kept up with Penn State.  But I guess with things that you have been, like, updated about before [inaudible], like, I guess, like, you see a lot of [inaudible].  Like, have you seen, like, a lot of change?  And, like, do you feel like Penn State's moving in, like, the right direction as far as, like, just, like, you know, improving themselves and, like, Penn State's image and, like, you know, stuff like that?  Like, not just their image but what they have to offer to students.  

>> That's so hard to say.  It's like comparing apples to oranges now.  What I experienced back in the '60s and mid '60s until 1970 when I graduated, it's like a different time.  And to compare them is not really in a sense valid.  It's the difference between getting dressed up for Sunday dinner at that time the way I did compared to what you see now with people wearing pajama bottoms to classes.  And it's just -- it doesn't compute.  

>> Yeah.  

>> The time flow just doesn't go there.  

>> So where Penn State is now is light years just ahead in many ways from where it was when I was there and in many ways not.  Because the closeness and the interaction of people I don't think is there the way it was when we were there.  It was just different.  Not that it was better, but different.  And I think where Penn State really needs to heal itself is everything that happened with Paterno having to leave his post when they had the scandal there.  I can't even remember the guy's name now.  Sandusky.  

>> Yeah.  

>> And that -- that dealt a major blow, major blow to the university.  

>> Mm-hmm.  

>> And it's taken this long for them to recover.  And I don't know how long it will take for it to really --^*

>> Yeah, especially from, like, all the things happened last year, too, with the fraternity.  

>> Yeah.  And that's -- that is so sad.  And why?  Why did that even happen?  What the heck goes through these kids' minds that this poor soul was so injured?  And you just leave him there?  Oh, it's absolutely appalling, just appalling.  

>> Yeah.  

>> So it's really not my Penn State anymore, is it?  It's this Penn State.  My Penn State was 50 years ago.  But we had our own problems.  

>> Yeah.  I'm glad that you said that.  Like, that's huge.  Because, you know, like, you know, my Penn State is different than your Penn State.  Like, you know --^*

>> It is.  

>> So I guess, like, just to -- like, for a takeaway, like, what would be, like, just, like, you know, something that you want future Penn Staters, like -- when looking back at this recording, like, what you just, like, want them to know and just, like, take away and, like, you know, from, like, just I guess college experience in general and, like, you know, just what, like, you know, your main message would be to them about, like, you know --^*

>> Be a decent human being.  Look out for others.  Do good works.  Be charitable.  And help other people.  That's what I would say.  And there's a lot of good there.  And you just -- you have to be the best person you can possibly be.  And the important thing is look after your fellow man and woman.  

>> Yeah.  That's awesome.  That's amazing.  So I just want to thank you, Tru, for, you know --^*

>> Oh, you're welcome.  

>> -- sharing your time with me.  And just, like, you know --^* 

>> I wish I could put you in a time machine and take you back to 1964 for a day.  

>> Oh my gosh.  I wish.  

>> You would -- you would have a blast.  

>> Yeah.  

>> Fortunately those time machines don't exist, do they?  

>> Yeah, you only see them in the movies [Laughs].  

>> [Laughs] That's right.  Only in movies, that's hilarious.  Well, it was a pleasure talking to you, too.  I hope you got a few insights.  

>> Yeah.  Oh it was, like, it's nice, you know, like, just talking to you and, like, getting your insight because you are the one who lived through, you know, that era and, you know --^*

>> Yeah.  

>> So this is amazing.  And I just, like -- thank you so much for helping me [inaudible] others.  

>> You're welcome.  

>> And I hope you have a good night.  

>> Go Lions.  

>> Yeah [Laughs].  Oh, wait, before we go, before I end this, I guess, like, I should do one quick we are.  So on the count of three -- one, two, three.  We are.  

>> We are.  

>> Oh [Laughs].  

>> Penn State.  

>> Yeah.  We are.  

>> Penn State.  

>> [Laughs] Thank you.  

>> You're welcome.  

>> Hey, have nice night.  

>> Bye.  

^E01:00:11

Interview by Kevin McMahon

>> Okay, my name is Kay Salvino. I am a 1969 graduate of Penn State, the College of Health and Human Development. I am a past-president of the Penn State Alumni Association and a past trustee of the university, and I am a very active alumni volunteer. 

>> All right, I'll start with the questions.

>> Yes.

>> My first question is what years did you attend Penn State?

>> I was here from the fall of 1965 until June of 1969. During that time, we had trimesters. So there were some people who weren't here as long. In other words, they went straight through, but I went the regular time, from September to June.

>> Why did you choose Penn State for your university education?

>> There's a couple reasons I chose Penn State. One of them is very practical, and that's location. I was from the Philadelphia's suburban area, and it was relatively convenient. Not as convenient as it is now. He used to take about 4-1/2 hours to drive here, and now it takes about three. So the roads are much better than they used to be. One was location, and one was reputation. I wanted to be not too far from home. I wanted to have a good education. My parents could not really afford a private university. 

>> What was your major at your time here? 

>> It was individual and family studies, which is the precursor of human development and family studies. 

>> Was there one particular course or professor that made a lasting impression on your studies? 

>> Yeah, and when I read this question, there was actually a course that was different than the professor. The course, I think, that made the biggest impression on me was my speech course. I think it's something that I have used really the whole time during my professional life and my volunteer life. You have to learn how to speak to people. You have to speak in front of crowds. It really taught me a lot. The professor that I think left the biggest impression on me was Dr. Latman [assumed spelling]. He taught geology, G-Sci 20 is what we called it, and he was a favorite of many people on campus. It wasn't in my major, but it was a great course, and I really loved it. And he went on to become president of a college, I think, out in New Mexico, a smaller college, and he came back about six or eight years ago to give one of his famous lectures, and it was really great, because the room was full of people who remembered him and wanted to hear it again. 

>> What kind of music did you like to listen to at the time? 

>> This was an interesting question. Do you know what a Jammy is? 

>> Is it some kind of instrument?

>> No, a Jammy is a party. It's a -- Jammies are what we used to call the parties that we had on weekends, and they were parties that were -- they had a live band. And so, there was -- it was the only time that you really wore jeans, because people dressed differently then.

>> Yeah.

>> So you wore jeans and a T-shirt, and it was a big party with live music, and it was a dance party. And so, the music was like The Rolling Stones, The Beatles. I don't know if you've ever heard of Three Dog Night. 

>> I have.

>> Okay, Three Dog Night was one of them. A little bit of the Beach Boys. A little bit of some still older music, some Elvis Presley-type music, you know? So it was a real mix. It really was. I would say, if you had to say who were the biggest groups then, I would say it would be either the Beatles or The Stones

>> Where did you obtain your news? Like a newspaper? 

>> I know exactly what you meant, yeah. There was some different ways. The newspaper, but because I was in college, I really didn't read the newspaper all the time except The Collegian. So I would say the news on television or the radio. If I was at home, meaning if I had a daily newspaper available, because we really didn't have them here, I would say the newspaper.

>> Okay, what were your particular news-related interests at the time? For example, like the Vietnam protests, presidential election, etc. 

>> Right, I made a couple notes on this, because there's a lot of stuff that happened in 1968. A lot of it had to do with the war in Vietnam. A lot of it had to do with the draft. Are you familiar with what happened with the draft back then, people burning their draft cards and things? Okay. 

>> We touched on that in class.

>> Okay. So that was really prevalent then, and it was a situation where the draft board was not supposed to take you if you were actively in college and doing well, but in small draft boards, they did take people. So it was are you going to be drafted? Are you going to have to leave college? Are you going to do ROTC, so that you don't have to be drafted? Those kinds of things, or National Guard? So it was kind of a big deal if you were going to be in the service are not, if you were a young man. There was related things. A lot of things had to do with the war in Vietnam. It affected President Johnson. It affected lots of things. There was a ship back then called The Pueblo. You're familiar with that? 

>> Yeah, that was -- wasn't that the one that was taken by --

>> North Korea.

>> North Korea. 

>> Yeah, okay, and so that was a big incident. They said that they had invaded their waters. We said that we hadn't. You know? But they were released, the people were released. Things like assassinations, Martin Luther King, Bobby Kennedy. They were, I hate to say it, but they were kind of like prevalent.

>> Yeah.

>> It was a time of violence, and here on campus, it was a time of demonstrations and pretty much a big divide among students, because you had people who were involved with ROTC or felt that the military and the government were doing the right things, and there was people who protested. [inaudible]

>> Good answer. What is one suggestion that you would offer to a current student today?

>> I think it's really important for current students today to live their own experience, and by that I mean evaluate their individual goals and do what it takes to attain them, and not so much what their peers would be doing, and not so much what somebody else tells you to do. I think that students today are really more dependent on their parents than people used to be. Pretty much, when you went to college, and my day, you are on your own, and so you talked to your parents once a week down at the end of the hall on the payphone, and now, I think, a lot of students talk to their parents every day, and their parents are a part of their life and help them make decisions that we had to make. I think it's really important to use the four years that you're in college to gain your maturity and independence and decide who you want to be. And I have to tell you, Penn State is a great place to do that, because they offer so many alternatives for people as far as education or activities or associations, networking, just tons of things.

>> How do you feel that events happening in the 60s shaped the current world that we're in now? 

>> I think the 60s were the beginning of the great divide that is currently part of our everyday life. I think there was two groups of people. They were establishment and antiestablishment, and I think that that has turned into the right and the left, and I think that we were the -- the people who came after the post-war, post-World War II, people were happy. It was a boom time. You know, it was a Donna Reed -- do you know who Donna Reed is? 

>> I've heard that name before.

>> Okay, Donna Reed was a mom on TV. So she had a show where it was a wonderful family show. It was like the Brady Bunch or Leave it to Beaver, those kinds of things.

>> Oh, we had a class where he talked about like culture and like media, and I'm pretty sure like they mentioned that show before. 

>> Okay, well, those types of things were what the 50s and early 60s were like. So at the end of the 60s, things changed a great deal, and I think that has carried over, because those of us who were in college now are now running corporations, countries, all kinds of things, and I think you don't change much after you're 20.

>> How to campus life differ from what it is today?

>> It was more isolated. I think that you had to, just as I mentioned previously, make your own way. You had to do whatever. You had to make sure that you -- however you decided to live, you had to make sure that you could handle it yourself. Let me put it that way, and it was isolated. It was relatively far from anything, which now it is not, just because of the advancement of transportation and highways and things. There was no social media. There was no immediate news. Your news was the newscast the next time it was on. So it was a smaller place. It was more remote than it is now. It was less sophisticated than it is now. It was, as much as it is the same, it was very different. 

>> In class, we read, I think it was a like a freshman policy and guidelines to living in the dorms. I think it was like all girls weren't allowed outside past like 10 o'clock. Were there like strict like rules like that? 

^M00:10:06

>> Some of the things in those books were not really adhered to. 

>> So like they weren't -- were they enforced? 

>> Sometimes. There was a lot of ways to get around it. Let me put it that way. When I first started here, you had to be in by 11 o'clock on a weeknight, and on a weekend, you had to be in by 1. But during the four years that I was here, that all evolved and on Fridays and Saturdays, you could be out until 3 or 4, depending on the weekend, and there was just -- you went in the side of the dorm, and there was a campus policeman to let you in, and it was -- I don't know how to put this. It wasn't as strict as people make it sound looking back at it. If you wanted to stay out late, you found a way to get in, because you'd call your roommate, and they'd let you in. It was kids would be kids no matter who it was. And you know, those books were really very idealistic. 

>> Yeah.

^M00:11:10 [ Chuckling ] ^M00:11:12

Who or what was your biggest influence on becoming what you wanted to be during this time? 

>> I would say because I was the first person in my family to go to college, I think, just having the opportunity to have a college education was the biggest influence of my life and prepared me for a career and prepared me to meet the people that I was going to meet the rest of my life and prepared me to think more independently and to do things differently than I would've been able to do before.

>> Who did you watch the moon landing with?

>> Now this one is tough, because it was in July, as you told me. I think that I probably was at work, because in July, unless it was on a weekend, in July, I would've been working because I was home over break, and that's what I did. I worked to save money for the next semester. So I remember seeing it, but I think I saw it in a delayed report, like with Walter Cronkite or somebody that was saying, "This is what happened today." Yeah, so it isn't like -- for me, it isn't like when Kennedy got shot. When Kennedy got shot, I was in high school, and I can remember exactly where I was standing and exactly who I was speaking to. It wasn't like 9/11, because I can remember exactly where I was and who I was speaking to. So the moon landing was not as significant to me as some of those other things. 

>> Can you touch upon the Kennedy assassination, where you were then? 

>> Yes, I was in high school, and I was standing outside of the auditorium at Abington High School, and there was a wing off the auditorium where the guidance counselors had their offices, and that's where I was, and I was with one of my other friends. We were headed away from the guidance counselors' offices, and it came over the loudspeaker. There was an announcement made by the principal. So, I remember that very well.

>> Thank you. That's all the questions I have prepared. If you want to touch on anything else, feel free to.

>> Oh, okay. I think one of the things that I would say to you, Kevin, or to anybody else that's a current student is you have a great opportunity here, and as I mentioned earlier, it's up to you what you make of it to make your own experience. I would encourage everybody in your class or any class to work their Penn State network. It's one of the best benefits you will get out of being a Penn Stater. I just, this morning, was working with a friend of mine who has become the president of an institution to help somebody who is graduating in May, because he wants to live in Connecticut, and he wants to do this and he wants to do that, and she knows the people that live there. So those types of connections are almost as important as what you learn in class, because, well, you have to learn, what you learn in class, and you have to well to achieve what you want to achieve, but to get your first job or to get that next job, or whatever you want to do, you've got to work your network, and Penn State has a fantastic network. Are you aware of that? 

>> Yeah.

>> Good. Are you using it? 

>> Yeah.

>> Good.

>> I'm still looking for an internship, but I've branching out to a lot of like past students. So that's been helpful.

>> Good.

>> I set up a couple of interviews.

>> Good. What is your major?

>> Security risk analysis.

>> Oh, that's a great major. You're going to get -- I'm sure you'll get an internship. I'm sure you'll get a job. It's interesting, because there are certain majors here, like yours, and like supply chain, that pretty much everybody gets a job. So where are you looking?

>> I applied -- well, I'm from Pittsburgh, so somewhere preferably like near there, but I'm like willing to relocate anywhere. 

^M00:15:14

I applied to UPMC, a lot of like Pittsburgh businesses. I had a interview with PPG Paints, like the coating company --

>> Oh, my gosh.

>> About a week ago. They denied me, but I have another interview lined up with a company called Leidos for spring break. So hopefully, I'll be able to get that one. 

>> Good, good. PPG is a company that my husband interviewed with after he got out of the Navy, because he was more the people who would've been drafted. So he went to the Naval ROTC. So he was in the Navy after we graduated, and when we came back east, it was one of the companies he interviewed with, PPG. It's amazing.

>> Yeah.

>> Everything goes around comes around. So are you graduating this year?

>> I'm a junior. I graduate next year.

>> Okay, and is your internship a requirement?

>> Yeah.

>> Okay, and in health and human development, you have to get your own internship. Is the same in your major?

>> Mm-hm.

>> Okay. 

>> Except it doesn't have to be related to like what I do. It just has to be related to like what I do. It just has to be like any internships. Like I'm applying to all the like business ones, like etc. 

>> Oh, really? It doesn't have to be really in your field?

>> It just has to be an internship.

>> Okay, oh, well, that's good. That leaves it wide open for you. 

>> Yeah, mm-hm. 

>> So have you had internships in the past?

>> No.

>> Okay, how's your resume? Is it good? 

>> It's pretty good. I have -- like I worked a lot of jobs like throughout high school, and like I have a lot of like experience like in like managing people like teaching like people stuff. So I worked on it with like four different people. So --

>> Good, good, and --

>> I just didn't have like one person look at it. 

>> And so you've weeded out what those people thought maybe you didn't need and you've made things relative to whatever you're looking for?

>> I usually -- every time I apply to one, like I read the intern description, and if they're looking for like an IT manager, I'll like kind of like tinker it, like tailor it like a little towards that. 

>> Yeah, good.

>> Because like they -- well, like what I read is like when they put your resume through the machine, like they look for like keywords. Like they have a computer like find certain keywords, and then they pull those ones up. 

>> Yeah, yeah, I think that's good that you're paying attention. Are you doing a cover letter?

>> Yes.

>> Good, because people -- I was a healthcare administrator, and when I worked in healthcare, I got a lot of resumes and letters and everything, and I disregarded any resume that didn't have a cover letter with it, and if you were a Penn Stater, you went right to the top of the pile. So it's just -- do you know the companies that you're applying if there are Penn State connections?

>> Some of them, like I knew like alumni like -- like I have a lot of cousins who went here. So like all those ones, I put like their name down, but not all the companies I applied to. Like I -- some of them are just like companies I don't know anyone there.

>> Okay, I don't know when you're applying to a company if you can look up the people online and find out their educational background. 

>> It's something to try out. I'll definitely look at that. 

>> Yeah, yeah, because if any of the people that you're -- if they have any Penn State connection, you should be aware of that, and that should be a factor in your search. It'll make a difference. So you're going to graduate in May or next May?

>> Yeah.

>> Okay, and what do you want to do when you graduate?

>> I've given that a lot of thought. I think I might want to be a penetration tester, which basically, companies would hire me to like try and like steal people's like credit card information or like try and break into their website, and like I would find like the vulnerabilities and then talk to like a software engineer and tell them how to like patch them. 

>> Okay, so you would be trying to prevent people from stealing? 

>> Yeah.

>> Okay, is that a prevalent occupation? Is that something that you'll easily find? 

>> My cousin, he had the same major as me. He graduated in, I think, 2008, and he got hired right out of school from the company he internshipped. It was Capital One, the credit card company, and he was the penetration like manager there for about, I think, four years, and then he got a promotion.

>> Great. Great. So you have connections at Capital One? Good. Certainly, everybody knows that name.

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah, it sounds like you're thinking about the future. Good, good, I mean, that's why you're here, to be prepared. So do you feel like you're being well-prepared at Penn State?

>> Yeah, I'd say so for sure. 

>> Good, good, not going to turn around and ask you, have you had a really good course or professor that is influenced you? 

>> I took a public speaking class, and the teacher I had for that class, I had a semester before for stand-up comedy and arts gen that I had to take.

>> Oh, cool!

>> And in the stand-up class, we had to write our own jokes and say them in front of like a group of like 80 people, and that kind of like made me like super like getting used to public speaking.

>> Yeah.

>> So like I'd say that kind of like kind of took me out of my comfort zone and just kind of like prepared me --

>> Good, good. 

>> The most out of any course.

^M00:19:57

>> Moving out of your comfort zone is really important. It's interesting that the stand up is something that you like, because they didn't have that when I was here, but the public speaking, boy, if you can knock that and do it well and do it better than other people that are interviewing for the positions that you're interviewing for, people notice that. They definitely do, and I don't know, when you're in your field and you're trying to prevent theft, how much you'll be presenting or talking but, I don't know. Is that part of what you'll be doing? 

>> Yeah, I job shadowed my cousin, who was the penetration test guy, and what he would do is like he would have a like a briefing, like usually like once a week for like 40 minutes, and just like him and his team would just talk to like their bosses on like what's going on.

>> Okay, okay, and it sounds like you have a lot of practical experience with him, even though you haven't had an internship. That's good. 

>> I applied to a couple of internships when I was a sophomore, but really, like they like they only hire like juniors.

>> Juniors, yeah, and were they in your field? 

>> Mm-hm.

> Okay, okay, well, I hope you get what you want. So what me know if I can help you in any way. 

>> I appreciate that.

>> Yeah, sure. One of the things that I do is I get to meet students like you, and I'm really lucky, and if I can be of any service, I'm happy to do it. Anything else you need?

>> No. I will take you up on that help on the internship offer. I'll send you an email, if that's okay with --

>> Absolutely, and when you send the email, send your resume. 

>> Of course, that's what I was going to do. 

>> Yeah, yeah, and the opportunities that look at, look at them. Don't be too narrowly focused. Look at them with a wide range and see what they might do for you that you don't realize.  You know what I mean? So, that's cool. I hope you do really well. Now what are you going to do with this?

>> I'm going to -- first I'm going to take the audio file and convert it to like the one I have to turn it in as, and then, I'm going to work on the final paper, but that's not due until the end of the -- like the school year. So probably just going to listen to it a couple times, and then think about what I'm going to write about. 

>> Yeah, what do you turn that into? I mean, how do you turn an interview into a paper? It'd be a little bit like dull.

>> Yeah.

>> I mean, I hate to say that, but...

>> We like touch upon -- like we relate what we learned in class. Like each class is a thing. Like the one day it was like media, and like the other one was like how people got their news, and like I'm going to relate that back to the interview. 

>> Okay, so you're going to say -- you're going to put together what you've learned in class and what people told you actually happened.

>> Yes. 

>> Okay, and make it interesting. That's a tough assignment. I mean, it's fun to talk with you, but I don't know if it's paper worthy.

>> I have like two months to work on it. 

>> Okay, okay. So do you like this class? 

>> It's really interesting.

>> Good.

>> It's the last history class I have to take, but it keeps me interested.

>> Have you had a lot of history classes? 

>> I had to take three for like general education classes. This one, by far, is like the most interesting, I'd say.

>> Oh, good. So now you've had gen eds a lot?

>> Mm-hm.

>> Just as part of your major, or --

>> As part of my major. Like I have certain ones I have to take, and I tried to get all of those out of the way like my first couple of years. Like I'm pretty much almost --

>> And you're still stuck with one? 

>> Yeah.

>> And you're going to have -- okay. So you won't have any next year? 

>> Nope. 

>> Okay.

>> Just all like classes pertaining to like my major. 

>> Good. Good. You'll enjoy them more, and not that I didn't think gen eds were important, because everybody learns a lot from gen eds, even though they think they know a lot already when they get here. Where did you go to high school?

>> I grew up in Pittsburgh my whole life. I would to like a high school like right outside of Pittsburgh. It's called South Park. 

>> South Park. Okay, my husband's from Donora, and it's a really run-down town now, but years ago, it was a mill town, and so, I know the Pittsburgh area a little bit.

>> Did you meet your husband here?

>> I did. I did. I was from Philadelphia, and he was from Pittsburgh, and I met him in the beginning of my senior year at a sensitivity training program for campus leaders. It was really very interesting, because as I mentioned, it was a time of great divide among students, and they were trying to have us bond. And so, they invited different campus leaders to these programs at the beginning of our senior year, which would've been September of 1968. And they were held in sorority suites, and there was probably 12 or 15 people in each group, and we talked about different types of subjects and everything, and people ended up talking about what frustrated them and how they were unhappy with their parents, and they would punch the wall and things like that. And my husband and I were the two outcasts. We were both happy, and we both loved her parents, and we were the only two in the group. It was an odd experience. So, the only good thing that came of it was meeting him. 

>> That's a nice story though. 

>> It is. It's kind of different. It really is. So he was president of his fraternity. I was president of my sorority, and so that's -- we were invited to these things. My sorority's gone now because it was removed from campus.

>> One thing I found really interesting was the Jammies you were talking about earlier.

>> Yeah.

>> I can play like three different instruments. Like that's kind of like sounds like really cool to me. 

>> It was really cool. There used to be a band here called The Darker Side, and the lead guy, his name was Cal. I can't remember his last name, but everybody loved The Darker Side, and so, if you were having a really big weekend, you'd want to get Cal and The Darker Side to be at your event, and it was usually a couple of different groups together, meaning a couple different fraternities and sororities and their dates. And everybody dated then. It was not group functions. You had a date like every weekend, and there was more men than women. It was about three to one, and they had admission standards. So when I applied to Penn State, I had to have higher SATs and higher high school scores than the men who applied, and when I had accounting at Penn State, I was the only woman in my class. Talk about weird.

>> Yeah.

>> Talk about weird, yeah. So it was a different time, but still, I have to attribute my success and the things that my husband and I have now and that our children have, to my education. 

>> How many children do you have?

>> Two. My daughter was a gymnast at Penn State, and she now owns Central League Gymnastics, which is a local gymnastics facility, and our son went to Penn. He played football at Penn, and he remains in Philadelphia. He's an urban person, and he's a political consultant.

>> That's pretty interesting.

>> He's very interesting. He's very different than I am, but he's -- he's a neat guy, but he's just different. He's his own guy, and he had his experience at Penn, which is an urban experience and stayed, you know? So, it just depends on what you grow into. I guess I would put that way. So, but he's -- he has a radio program. You know, he's different, you know, but cool. 

>> He's on the radio? 

>> Yeah, he's on the radio. Does these commentaries. Some of them are political commentaries, and some of them are life commentaries. And people hire him to be these little spokes -- these brief, little things for them, on different groups and things. So he does them. You know, different. I mean, he was an entrepreneurial management at Penn, and he has his own positions, and has his own way of doing things. 

>> Sound like everyone in your family is pretty successful. 

>>Yeah, we're lucky. We really are. My husband has had his own business. He is a labor-management relations graduate from here, and he has represented companies in dealings with unions. So he has done negotiations and things like that ever since he got out of the Navy, and I was a retail person when I got out of college, and I did that for one year, but it was too hard. I mean, you worked every day, and so, after that, I was in real estate, and then, a friend of mine, who was a physician, she was opening a dialysis center, and she didn't know anything about business, and she said, "Will you help me set up my business?" And I said, yeah, I mean, you know, I don't mind, Susan. I'll help you, but I'm not staying. And so, I stayed, and then, so, I kind of morphed into healthcare and stayed in healthcare administration until I became president of the Alumni Association, and then, I could really do my full-time job and be what I wanted to be at the Alumni Association also. So I stopped working then. It's different, different courses. You'll find that during your life, you'll take twists and turns that are not what you expect now. Yeah, so, are your parents happy with Penn State?

>> Yeah, my sister went here. She's in grad school at Pitt now, but she seemed to like it up here a lot.

>> Okay. Okay, and she's at Pitt now. So she's both. 

>> Yeah.

>> Wow. Does she have a preference?

>> I think she likes Pitt a little bit better, just because it's super-close to home, and she can go home whenever she wants, but she really liked it here when she had her time here. 

>> Good. What is she taking her graduate work in?

^M00:30:04

>> Speech pathology. 

>> Oh, wow, she has to have her graduate degree in that, yeah. Yeah, we can't do anything without that, and what does she want to do when she's done? 

>> I'm not really entirely sure, but I think she wants to work with disabled kids, something around those lines. 

>> Okay, in a hospital setting? 

>> Yeah, something along those lines.

>> Okay, so was she in speech communication disorders here?

>> Yeah.

>> And so, she was in health and human development?

>> Mm-hm. 

>> Good. Good college. Really good college. So let me know if I can help you in any way.

>> I'll definitely email you my resume either today or tomorrow. 

>> Okay.

>> Any way you can help me out, I would really appreciate that.

> >Sure, absolutely.

>> Thank you for agreeing to do the interview.

>> Absolutely too, and I hope that you do well in your -- 

Interview by Kevin DuBartell 

^B00:00:01   >> Okay, so we are recording now so I'll get started.  So   what years did you attend Penn State?   >> I arrived in the summer of 1969 in June, did summer term   then and graduated in June of 1972.   >> Okay, so you did the summer session then.  I also did a   summer session, so that's a neat connection.  So what made   you attend Penn State?   >> The main reason was my father said you can go to any   state school in Pennsylvania.  And I said, well, I prefer to   go to Cornell.  And he said, well, I'll give you the money   that Penn State or Pitt or Temple costs, and you come up   with the rest.  And I figured out how much money that was   and I said, nope, forget it.  So I'm going to go to a   Pennsylvania school.  And Penn State was the one I wanted   because it was the biggest.  It was in my mind the most   famous at least in Erie.  There was a campus, the Behrend Campus in Erie, but I didn't want to go there.  I   wanted to go to the place where there were 30,000 students   and a lot happening.  So it really came down to the image of   Penn State, the size of Penn State and the kind of   experience I was looking for.  I was not looking for a small   liberal arts college where there were only 500 students,   1,000 students.  I wanted big.   >> Yeah, that was also a similar thing with me.  I also   wanted to go to a large school.  So was Penn State football   as popular as it is today back then?   >> It was extremely popular back then.  And Coach Joe Paterno was in his fourth or fifth year of being head coach   at that point.  We were known as like a very top ten   football team.  I think we were number two one of the years   that I was there if I'm not mistaken.  And Franco Harris   played on the team.  He went on to be a superstar at   Pittsburgh Steelers.  But it was a very big thing.  And I   was in my first year in the flash card section.  I happened   to in the first week of showing up at Penn State in June of    69 gone to the Hub, and there were all these people sitting   at desks trying to get you interested in this or that   activity or club or whatever.  And the flash card group was   there, and they told me I could sit on the 50 yard line to   watch football games instead of in the end zone if I would   just have a flash card and then follow the instructions as   they had us turn either the blue side or the white side I   think it was.  And so that was really fun.  The only   downside was that my friends all were in the end zone and I   was with a bunch of people I didn't know.  But it was still   a fantastic way to view the game.   >> Yeah, I have to imagine so considering that you were like   right there like field side.  So I noticed in the bio that   you were an economics major.  And I'm also an economics   major so I found that interesting.  I always liked the idea   because I thought it was applicable to everybody because   everyone takes part in the economy.  So whether or not   you're like majoring in economics, the class I always found   was useful, just good things to know.  But what made it   appeal to you?   >> Well, as it turns out I started in engineering.  So I was   in June of 1969 enrolled in the school of engineering.  So I   was taking physics and integral calculus and things like   that.  And I then also went through fall term in engineering   and decided that this just wasn't fun.  It was a real grind.    And I was not so interested in all of the theory and the   math and so forth.  I liked working on things.  I was hoping   it would be more like you hear MIT is these days where   people are building robots and things like that.  If they   were doing that I probably would have stayed.  But it was   very traditional textbook oriented.  I will say this,   though, that the drafting class I took really made me an   excellent printer.  And I've used that skill for my whole   life.  But, anyway, in the Christmas break of 1969 going   into  70 I decided I'm going to switch to the school of   business.  So I did that.  And I eventually declared a major   in marketing.  But I also took economics because that was   one of the core courses in the school of business.  And I   got to know a professor there, Professor Bernard Boom   [phonetic] who convinced me to get into honors economics   program.  And then before you know it I was specializing in   economics.  And it was suggested to me why not get two   degrees, a BS in business administration and a BA in   economics.  So that's what I ended up doing.  Still was able   to accomplish all that in three years thanks to getting some   credits for courses I took in high school.  They used to let   you take the final exam, I don't know if they do anymore.    But like speech 200 I remember this was really funny, I   didn't have to say a thing.  I just went and took the   multiple choice test that is the final exam.  I got an A and   I got the credits and so forth.  Let's see, what else?    There was a couple of other things I was able to do that   with.  And then I went two summers I guess in total, so that   helped me get ahead as well.  So in the end they called this   a simultaneous degree program.  All of the courses I took in   business counted towards liberal arts where it applied and   vice versa.  So I got out of there with a BA and a BS.  But   in the end the big thing for me was economics because I had   this teacher, I was in the honors program.  I even ran a   testing service for Professor Boom.  He had a very   innovative thing that he got from the University of Indiana   where in these classes where there's, say, 350 or 400   students the cheating was kind of rampant because it was   easy to look at the people beside you.  Everybody had the   same questions.  And, you know, you think, well, this kid is   smarter than I am, I'm going to go with their answer.  So   they had a computerized program at University of Indiana   that would take a bank of questions like 100 questions for   this week's quiz that were relevant to the material, they'd   jumble them and pick out 20 questions for each student.  But   you had a one in five chance for the question.  And then   they put them in different order.  So the computer scrambled   it up.  So if you said, well let's see, number three is kind   of tough and you look over at the next person, you'd say,   wow, that's not even the question I have.  So it really cut   down on cheating, and I ran that whole service for him.  And   then he got me to do some Fortran programming for a Ph.D.   student.  So I really did bond in the end much more with the   economics program than the business side.   >> Okay, yeah.  Yeah, I'm majoring in economics and history.    So I also have a BA in history and a BS in economics.  So I   also have had [inaudible].   >> A quick question.  So a BS, you're getting a BS in   economics.  So what school is that that does that?   >> Oh, it's still the liberal arts.  But I had some overlap   in the business school.  So in the fall I took a business   calculus class.  So if I had done a BA in economics I   wouldn't have had to take math 110 which is the business   calculus class, where I'm going through a BS in economics so   I had to take business calculus.  And I'll have to have   taken -- next fall I'll be taking a comps, like a computer   science class as part of the bachelor of science in   economics.  So it's just like more mathematically oriented   than a BA in economics.   >> Yeah, I don't think they offered the BS in economics.    But, of course, I got the BS in business.  But I even took   econometrics, econ 490 it was called.  And it was one that   was more grad students taking it than undergrads.  But I   took that, but still that was not a BS.   >> Yeah, I am in an introduction to econometrics class right   now.  But then like later on as a sophomore or junior I have   to take a more advanced econometrics class.  So what music   did you like?  Because I noticed in your bio you said you   were in different bands.   ^M00:09:58   >> Yeah.  So I guess I came to Penn State having played in   bands since 9th grade right through 12th grade.  And back in   high school I was really into soul music.  Especially in   11th grade we had two horns in our band and we did a lot of   soul music.  But in 12th grade that was -- I went into 12th   grade in 1968, and we switched our band completely to   psychedelic music I guess you might call like Jefferson   Airplane.  We got a girl singer who could do a really good   Grace Slick imitation.  So at that point it was all like the   new age, the hippie kind of music that I was coming to   college with.  But I fell in with some guys who were playing   jazz.  And, in fact, the first gig I did at Penn State was   either near the end of the summer or early fall of  69, and   there was a play going on.  And I was one of the hired   musicians to play the music for this play.  And so I did   that for a while.  And then those guys asked me to be in a   band that they kind of had going I guess, but they didn't   have a guitar player.  So this had a jazz piano player, two   jazz horn guys, a drummer who loved both, a singer who was   completely on the rock side and nothing to do with jazz.    And then me who, you know, mostly I was doing the popular   music at the time, but I also in high school was very much   into jazz, Oscar Peterson was a piano player that was famous   then.  I had his albums.  Wes Montgomery was a really great   jazz guitar player but he also did some pop, that kind of   stuff.  But he was known as one of the best ever jazz   guitarists.  And so that fit for me, and for two years I played with those guys.  And we played fraternity parties, we   played things at Penn State.  We never played at rec hall or   anything.  But we were playing at parties that were there.    I played in the Hub I remember one time and had to have my   amp cranked all the way to ten because it was a pretty big   room.  And so then the last one, the band I was in in 1972,   that spring, was called Still Flight, and it was   no drummer I believe.  And so I think there were four of us,   and I think maybe a bass player and two or three guitarists,   something like that.  I don't know, maybe we had a drummer.    I don't quite remember a drummer.  But that's where we got   to play at a festival at Penn State out in front of Beaver   Stadium.  And we played on a Saturday night at 6 p.m.  It   was a beautiful day, still sunny.  This was probably May of   that year, something like that, and played in front of 7,000   people.  So that's still the most people I've ever played in   front of.   >> And you didn't have stage fright or anything of that   nature in front of 7,000 people?   >> No, not at all.  It was weird.  It was just super fun.    It was an amazing experience and not nerve wracking.   >> Sounds amazing.  So we're going to take a slightly   different turn here now.  Or where did you get or slash   obtain most of your news during this time?   >> Well, I believe that the Daily Collegian Newspaper was my   main way of getting news.  I know that my first few years in   the dorms we didn't have a TV.  There was no practical way   to do that.  When we got to Southgate Apartments in my third   year we had a TV, a cable TV.  But it was mainly sports we   were watching, and it was New York stations that we were   picking up.  I don't even remember if there was any kind of   local TV.  I don't remember any state college TV station or   anything, but they did have cable.  Because I think   Pennsylvania was the place where cable TV really first   started, and we had it even in 1972.   >> Wow, that's really impressive.  So when you were in high   school did you watch more TV?   >> Yeah, I watched a lot more TV.  It was on constantly in   our house.  I watched the news, but I also watched all the   fun shows that they had in those days.   >> What do you think was your favorite show back then?   >> Ah, let's see.  Hmm.  So like during the time like when I   would come home from Penn State like what might have been on   in those days?   >> Yes.   >> It was like Mary Tyler Moore, yeah, the Mary Tyler Moore   show was the one that I remember watching in those days.  I   think that started in  71 or something like that.  So that   was one I always liked.  Well, the Ed Sullivan show watched   that a lot.  I remember when the Beetles came on in 1964   they played three times within a few weeks on the Ed   Sullivan Show.  That was a thing that changed the lives of   many guitar players or made people into guitar players.    When I read magazines, I get lots of guitar magazines like   Guitar Player and Vintage Guitar.  They are always asking   people, well, what got you into it?  And so many people say   seeing the Beetles on Ed Sullivan.  But I was in junior high   at that point.   >> Those are some classic shows.  When you were in high   school did you ever watch Walter Cronkite?   >> Yeah.  So we watched Walter Cronkite, also Huntley and   Brinkley, they were the NBC guys, Chet Huntley and David   Brinkley so I watched them.  Oh, and on ABC, yeah, you know,   now that reminds me that there was a guys on ABC, I'm   blanking on his name, but somehow we had a TV one of the   summers that I was there at Penn State, I think that would   have been, yeah, the 1971 summer.  And we used to watch the   ABC news there.  This was a rented house that my girlfriend   and I lived there for that summer and there was a TV.    That's interesting.   >> So what made these newscasters so seemed trustworthy at   the time?  Because back then they definitely had a   reputation for being very objective, whereas today people   have different anchors that they like, but some people claim   that like different people are biased or aren't telling the   truth.  What made it so trusted back then?   >> Yeah, well, first of all we didn't have the networks who   would say, well, we're appealing to conservatives, and   another one says we're appealing to liberals.  It was just   everybody was telling the whole nation the news.  And at   least it didn't seem like they were trying to spin it in any   particular way.  Although it may be now they're looking back   on it and saying it was the news industry that declared the   Vietnam War a disaster and unwinnable when, in fact, the   military didn't believe that at all.  And so perhaps there   was something we didn't even see that they had some sort of   bias to say this is going nowhere, this is terrible.  But I   will say that everybody I knew thought the Vietnam War was   terrible, too.  So we didn't need them to tell us that.  We   just thought what the heck are we doing there, and why are   my friends from high school being sent there?  So I don't   know that they really influenced us much.  But they did seem   like they were just reporting the facts and nobody   questioned that.   >> So what events would you say would have made the most   impact on you during this time period, like national events   or something like that?   >> Yeah, well, you know, I wrote a paper for I think a   sociology course at some point.  And one of the things that   I noticed was a massive shift from the spring of 1970 to the   fall of 1970.  So just a little history, we had in 1967 was   the summer of love in San Francisco and Haight-Ashbury, and   everybody was peace and love.  And then there was the   Woodstock Festival in August of 1969.  And even though it   was a lot of rain and stuff it generally had a good, happy   spin on it.   ^M00:20:02   And then by December of 1969 there was the [inaudible]   Altamont.  I don't know if you ever heard about that.   >> Oh, yeah, I've heard about that, yes.   >> So the Rolling Stones played.  They hired Hells Angels to   be the security for this thing.  A guy ended up getting   killed right in front of the stage.  And all of a sudden in   my mind that really changed.  People said, oh no, this whole   thing is going down.  And then we had lots of protests still   about the Vietnam War.  And now you fast forward to 1970,   May 4th, Kent State, four dead in Ohio.  All of a sudden   everything was like peeled back, and the peace and love   disappeared to like a really tragic thing.  And also it   divided the country more than it ever was.  They used to say   there were the straight people and there were the freaks.    So that started to maybe echo what we've got today.  Because   the straight people, there was like super, super straight   which would be like a farmer in Alabama if they saw a guy   with long hair they'd feel like shooting the kid.  But   mostly the cultures didn't run into each other that much.    But then when you have cops coming into campus shooting the   kids, all of a sudden it got extremely real.  And what I   noticed was when we all came back from the summer of 1970   back to school everything was different.  There was a more   somber mood.  People did a lot more of listening to music,   but in their apartments and so forth.  Still fraternity   parties went on, I will say that.  Like the whole fraternity   culture was not phased by all of this.  But the people I   knew that were more the peace and love generation it was   depressing for all of us.  And we all turned rather inward I   think.  And I wrote this paper about that, and I felt like   Altamont was the first like beacon of the problem, and then   it just got worse from there.   >> That's very interesting.  I never knew that there was   such a shift like that.  So you were saying, just to be   clear, that the Altamont concert followed by the Kent State   just caused more of a pessimistic attitude?   >> Yeah, and it made people want to go inward more.  And   they still loved the music that they always loved, and they   loved smoking hash and grass and stuff in their apartments.    But it was a lot less of the really obvious out there.  It's   like people just disappeared inside of that kind of   [inaudible].  Like there were the straights and there were   the freaks.  And so like the straight people were the people   in fraternities for sure, sororities, all of those   traditions.  And they were very much into alcohol.  And then   the freak world hardly drank alcohol at all.  And so it was   like two cultures living side by side.  But they didn't   really erupt against each other too much.  And I played in   these bands, and we made most of our money from fraternity   parties.  So I experienced fraternity parties, but from the   performer's side to me that was a world that I didn't really   want any part of, but glad to take the money, that's for   sure.   >> So would you say the fraternities like [inaudible] life   was more conservative than like everybody else if they were   the quote, unquote straights?   >> Yeah.  I would say when I got there that they were very   clean cut, short hair.  No long hair at all in fraternities.    Over time that changed.  Over time smoking weed was the   thing to do in fraternities along with the draft beer that   was on tap 24 hours a day.  So fraternities changed a lot.    But at the point where I was there they were just -- it was   like 1961.  You could hardly have told it was 1970 versus   1961.   >> Hmm.  I know in one of your emails or maybe it was your   bio you said that there was an Old Main sit in.  Can you   tell me more about that?   >> Yeah, so this idea of having be ins or sit ins was   happening across the country.  And some of the radicals, one   of the guys name was Mark and I can't remember his last   name, but he was part of Students for a Democratic Society.    He might have even been the president of the Penn State   chapter if you could call it that.  But they were like the   real leftist revolutionary types.  Most of the people in the   non-straight culture there were not into SDS.  They were   like overthrow everything.  But they were against the   government, against the administration.  Sort of against   every part of American life that you take for granted they   would question.  They're like, well, why should we use a   fork to eat our dinner?  Who forced us into that.  It was   like the man as co-opted us into using these table utensils   and it's really stupid.  And so people started to -- they   didn't go as crazy as the SDS guys maybe, but they thought,   well geez, maybe all of this that our parents created for us   is kind of stupid, and they're not enlightened.  Today they   would say they weren't woke.  So they had a whole new   consciousness they would say they were trying to bring to   light.  And socialism and communism were kind of back there   behind it, too.  So the capitalism they were against.    Militarism they were against.  And so they would do little   attacks like making molotov cocktails and throwing them at   the ROTC building which didn't really hurt the building, it   just put some black marks on it.  But then they decided to   do the sit in in Old Main, and they had some kids just there   all day in the lobby and they wouldn't leave.  And so then   that got the state police involved.  So the state police   came to campus, and we noticed that they set up their little   camp area in Beaver Stadium.  And we counted about 200 cops   out there was our estimate.  And since I had a car and I   lived in Snyder Hall in East Halls, and it was the closest   one to Beaver Stadium, we would occasionally drive out and   do a little reconnaissance mission to see, well, what are   the cops doing?  And usually like for a couple of days they   were just hanging then.  And then we happened to drive out,   and we saw they're mobilizing.  They were about ready to   attack.  So we drove immediately down to Old Main, parked   the car, ran in and said to Mark and the whole group   occupying Old Main the cops are coming, you guys gotta get   out of here.  And they said, no, we're going to stay.  So   the cops did come in, and I remember the cops were getting   pretty rowdy.  I saw them clubbing some people.  But, you   know, nobody got killed which was great.  But it was very   weird to have all of the state troopers attack the campus   basically, but they were attacking the sit in people.    Eventually they dragged them out, presumably arrested them   and stuff.  I'm not sure really what happened to them after   that.  Did you see anything in the Collegian about that when   you were doing your research?   >> No [inaudible] was from two years before.  However, I did   see something about a draft card burning.   >> Oh, okay, yeah.  Speaking of the draft by the way, when I   was in Snyder Hall that would have been the fall of  69 to   the spring of  70, that's when the kids my age got our draft   numbers.  And that night when the numbers came out it was on   TV.  We obviously had TV in lounges because we watched them   announcing like the numbers and the birthdays I guess.  Like   I was 302, so I was very safe.  One of my best friends was   51 so he was not safe.  And then there was a kid on our   floor who was this big athletic guy, and he just burst out   crying, I think he was like a 13 or something like that.   ^M00:30:08   And so eventually I did go 1A as they call it which is free   to be ready. But I did it when I knew that they had so many   people -- like they had to take this year's whole crop   before they would have gone into my birth year.  And so I   said, okay, for the last two weeks of the year I'm declaring   myself 1A.  And that I guess would have been 1971 December.    And then they didn't call me obviously so I was out.   >> So I assume like the higher number you had the more   unlikely it was that you would be drafted?   >> Yeah.  Because they would take it first like take all the   number 1s.  Then they'd take all the number 2s and so forth.    And everybody knew where they were.  Like as you progressed   through the year they'd say they're now working number 80 or   number 81 or whatever.  So you could sort of see, well, by   December they're never going to get to 302.  But I just   waited until the very last minute and went down and said,   okay, I'm changing from the student deferred to 1A ready to   serve.   >> Back to the occupation of Old Main.  How many of the   people from SDS were there, a handful or was it like a   decent number?   >> If I had to guess I would say there were 30 or 40 maybe,   something like that.  It wasn't massive.  You couldn't   really take over a building with only three people either.   >> Yeah, yeah.  That's a decent number of people.  Had you   ever heard of a Walker Towns [phonetic] before, because I   know that was something that happened in  68 in my research.    It was based on the university housing crisis, and certain   students had to be homeless because they hadn't built enough   housing.  So some students camped out on Old Main lawn.    Like do you know anyone who was a member of that?  I know it   was a little before you.   >> Yeah, so no I never even heard about it.  But I do   remember when we arrived for the fall of 1969 that there   were people who had beds in the hallways of dorms.  So they   didn't have enough places so they had like fold out cots or   something.  And for a while that's where they were sleeping.   >> Oh, wow.  Oh, my gosh.   >> But I don't think it went on for very long.  They started   figuring out how do we get them out into apartments in the   town and so forth.  Because these were people who signed up   to be in the dorms.  And yet too many people showed up.   ^M00:33:04   ^M00:33:11   >> So speaking of all these different [inaudible] if you   could take one event what do you think would be the most   groundbreaking of that time for you personally?   >> Well, so the day that the 200 cops attacked I would say   that's probably the biggest one.   >> Yeah, that's understandable.  I'd be shocked if that   happened.  So we're getting towards the end of the   interview.  So my last question is what is one suggestion   that you would offer to current students at Penn State?   >> So the biggest thing is to think about your career and   how to prepare for something that won't get ruined by   digital business or digital medical or whatever.  So just   like if you thought I'll be a radiologist, I'll go to   medical school and be a radiologist, they'll need them   forever.  Well, turns out not so much.  Or if you were going   to be a lawyer who was putting contracts together or   something, say, well, we don't need as many of those   anymore.  A lot of that can be done by artificial   intelligence.  Then you need someone to look it over.  But   really think about what are some things that are kind of   impervious to this.  Or jump on it in a big way and say, no,   I will be a leader.  I'll be the guy putting all those   people out of business because I'm going to invent this or   that.  But this digital technology march is going to be very   similar to how farmers changed as we went through the   industrial age, then when industry moved to China what   happened here to people who were pretty good at putting bolt   number 61 into slot B and tightening it up.  Then all of a   sudden there's no more $65 an hour jobs protected by unions   to do that, etc.  And I don't have any good answers about   what jobs are sort of digital proof.  But massage therapist   is probably one that's going to be around for a long time,   but it doesn't make a lot of money.   >> Yeah.  Okay, well, I think I'll end the recording or   pause it at least.   >> Save it, make sure you save it.   >> Oh, yeah, actually it will automatically save it.  But   I'll get one of the staff's over here but I can pause it   >> Yeah.   ^E00:35:59

Interview by Anelia Slavoff

>> Alright hi so thank you for joining us on this call, this interview today. Do you mind starting off by just saying your name?

>> My full name is James Schwartz but I always prefer to go by Jim.

>> Great, thank you. So what years did you attend Penn State?

>> I began in 1967 and I graduated in 1971.

>> Cool. What was your major while you were here at Penn State?

>> History.

>> And was there any

>> With an unofficial minor in political science.

>> Oh very cool.

[laughter]

>> It was not an official minor but I took several poly scie courses as well as being a history major.

>> Was it just because you were interested in the topic or did they just kind of fall into place that way?

>> An interest in the topics, an interest in the professors and it just, they seemed to go hand in hand.

>> Very cool. Yeah, was there one particular course or professor that made kind of a lasting impression on your studies?

>> Several in the history department but one in particular in the poly scie department, a guy by the name of Stebbins. [phonetic] He in particular had one course that was a constitutional history of the United States which was positively, in my opinion, the most outstanding course that I ever took at Penn State. He's a gentleman who I will forever say I am grateful to have met him, I am grateful that he was my professor and I am grateful that I had the opportunity to delve into his mind and his thinking.

>> That is very cool. Sounds like an awesome course.

>> Oh it positively, in fact I've asked about him many times since and I believe he ultimately just retired. I know he never became chair of the department but I just found his whole way of demeanor fascinating.

>> Yeah.

>> This was an upper level course, I'm sorry.

[laughter]

It was not, definitely not a freshman course and he really pushed you into thinking. He rarely taught by anything other than a modified Socratic method.

[laughter]

>> That sounds

>> So it was a fascinating course. In the history department there are, there were a whole host of people. One of my favorite professors was a gentleman by the name of Borza. I believe it's B-o-r-z-a. And he taught Greek and Roman.

>> Oh very cool.

>> And the reason that his course was so particularly enthralling is every chance he got he brought that, the parallels between Greek and Roman Empires to the present and compared them to what was going on in American society today to what went on during the Greek and Roman Empires. So his course was amazingly relevant, amazingly well taught and things like that, just very, very happy with him.

[laughter]

>> Well it sounds like a very cool class as well.

>> Well

>> I'm sorry.

>> All the teachers, and there were several who taught modern American history, and I focused in on all of those, any courses from 1865 on. And again those courses, I mean the prep that these people put into their courses was extraordinary in every sense of the word.

>> Absolutely, yeah.

>> So I was very, very pleased with them.

>> So what drew you to the history major?

>> Just the love of it. I've had a love of it ever since high school. I had a history teacher in I think it was either eleventh or twelfth grade, I think it was eleventh, Mr. Berry, [phonetic] in high school. And he just drew out every positive thing you could ever think of from all the students, even people that hated history, he had a way of engaging them.

>> Oh wow.

>> Into the course and into the class and an interest in the whole thing. So I was always, I think he was the one that first turned me on to how much of an interest I had in history.

>> Yeah.

>> But it was more of the modern history. It wasn't until I took Borza and him showing me the parallels between modern day history and Greek and Roman that I got that understanding.

>> That is very cool. Why did you choose Penn State for your education?

>> I didn't want to stay in Philadelphia so I knew I didn't want to go to Penn.

[laughter]

I didn't want to go to Temple. So Penn State was far enough away that I knew I couldn't come home on weekends.

[laughter]

And it had a great, it had a lot of great opportunities including a wonderful physical plan and I just felt it was a good match for me.

>> Yeah, I feel the same way. It's a very cool school.

[laughter]

>> Oh it's a very, very cool school.

>> Yeah.

>> But it's far enough away that you know that you're not living at home.

>> Right, you have that independence then.

>> Exactly.

>> Yeah. So I'm going to kind of change gears a little bit and talk a little bit about kind of the cultural aspect during the time period and ask you did you have a specific kind of music you liked during the sixties?

>> Ask the question again please.

>> Did you have a particular type of music you liked to listen to in the sixties?

>> I'm a Simon & Garfunkel fan. I love a guitar. I learned how to play three chords on a guitar. I'm sorry I never continued it.

[laughter]

But I enjoyed, as long as the music is not too loud and not rap I enjoy it.

[laughter]

I've even, even as a little kid when I spent every summer up in the Berkshires I very much enjoyed going to Tanglewood and listening to not only the Boston Philharmonic but I especially loved listening to the Pops, the Boston Pops. And I always used to go listen to them. So and I'm very in to show tunes.

>> Oh yeah.

[laughter]

Were you able to attend any performances here on campus? I know a lot of different bands came through here.

>> I did. I was pretty active in IFC and we always seemed to get some, luck out and get some decent seats because IFC seemed to control a lot of the concerts. We didn't have as many venues as they have today. Most of them were held either at Breck [phonetic] Hall or some of the other places. But back in those days we didn't have the auditorium theatre or the arts buildings.

>> Oh yeah.

>> And Eisenhower Chapel was just too small. It only held 5,000.

>> Well that's very interesting because there are a lot of different places to go now so that's very cool that back then there was very like kind of restricted areas where there would be performances like that.

>> Yeah we were, we were pretty restricted.

[laughter]

To get a large group, if you were having a major event you really were stuck with the rec hall.

>> Yeah.

[laughter]

>> Which was a pretty uncomfortable place to go.

[laughter]

>> I understand.

^M00:10:01

Ok so I'm going to change gears again and I'm going to ask you a little bit about how you kind of obtained your news during that time period. And I was wondering what kind of news outlets you used to hear about all the different world events going on?

>> Ooh, that's a good question.

[laughter]

^M00:10:23 ^M00:10:29

I try to read a lot. I try to read both sides or several sides of a story and then make my mind up from there.

>> Yeah.

>> So I would look at the far left, the far right, but there weren't as many publications back in those days which focused on the far either side.

>> Ok.

>> In other words we really didn't have a Breitbart. There was no Breitbart around.

>> Oh ok.

>> The furthest right that you would get is somebody like Barry Goldwater who by today's standards would be considered moderate.

[laughter]

The KKK or the other side, you know the far left Soviet type of propaganda, you just didn't see being pushed that much.

>> That's interesting.

>> So in that sense you really were looking, if you're looking, like I've always viewed the spectrum not as a straight line but rather as a horseshoe.

>> Ok.

>> So that on the left side where you had the far left being the Stalinists or someone like that, they were very close to the far right, the Nazis or Mussolini or somebody like that,

>> Yeah.

>> But they were very close but they were on the opposite side of you know pretty much 180 from the Kennedy Democrats or the Eisenhower Republicans.

>> Yeah. That's an interesting way to view it.

>> It's the way I've always viewed it. And I think it's helped me shape my perspective of events is looking at it from that point of view.

>> Yeah absolutely. And then that way you have more kind of perspective on it as well. You can kind of understand all of the sides and their stake in everything.

>> Right.

>> So

>> And I also recognized, if you're looking at a horseshoe and view the top of the horseshoe as 12:00 I also recognized when I'm dipping down below 9:00 or below 3:00. I mean is my visual coming across?

>> Yeah, yeah it is.

>> Ok the horseshoe, of course, does not touch at the bottom because a horseshoe is not connected at the bottom. So there is a space between 1:00 and 11:00. But ideologically they're not that far apart, at least from my perspective.

>> Yeah. Well that's very interesting. Alright so I will go on to the next question. So there was a lot occurring during, I'm sorry.

>> And if I, please if I'm talking too much just tell me and I'll shut up.

>> Oh no, no, no. You're absolutely fine.

[laughter]

So there was a lot occurring in the late 1960's such as the first moon photos from space or the student protests or the presidential election of 68. So what were your particular interests during this time period?

>> You got, for me you have to go back to 67. And when I was graduating high school and starting at Penn State I was leaving a lot of my "comfort zone" because I was going from a strong, well a very strong democratic city, being Philadelphia, or even a very moderate republican area being Cheltenham Township, which is where I grew up, to a part of Pennsylvania which was by all means and by all, by everything I was able to discern, certainly more conservative then what I had grown up with. Politically that translated to me that at first I was rejecting it and didn't embrace it yet returned to my roots being in Philadelphia and Cheltenham, which is eastern Montgomery County.

>> Right.

>> During the rest of that summer and into part of 1968 I got more and more involved and I became head of youth for Humphrey in the five county Philadelphia area. 

^M00:16:09 ^M00:16:15

Yet at the same time, well it's not yet at the same time, it's to augment that I became a member of the College Young Democrats and went to their convention from state college and went to Harrisburg. Yet at the same time I did go to the college and became a member of the College Young Republicans.

>> Ok.

>> The reason I did that is during my life at Penn State I did start to open myself up to get to know others.

>> Right.

>> Others who had a different perspective, who were showing me their thinking which at times made sense. I'm not saying all the time but at times it made a lot of sense.

>> Right.

>> So it was altering my views and perhaps even pulling me, if you use my horseshoe connotations, possibly a little bit more towards the center or even at times somewhat into the right. And I can even tell you where I basically came down on which kinds of issues but that could be for later in your conversation.

[laughter]

But as a bottom line, because of that, I became a member of the College Young Republicans. First of all it was a free ride down to Harrisburg for the weekend. It was a free drunk fest.

[laughter]

>> So you were involved in both organizations, both the Democrats and the Republicans while here at Penn State?

>> I was involved in those but I was still very more active in, at that point in time, more active in Philadelphia because it was for the presidential election.

>> Right. So could you elaborate a little more on your role as chair of Youth for Humphrey in the five county Philly area? Like what types of things did you do in this position?

>> Organize youth, attempt to organize youth both throughout the five county Philadelphia area. Attempt to bring that youth to rallies and I mean as an, one of the first examples is Hubert Humphrey started his campaign, because Pennsylvania put him over the top, he started his campaign, which in those days you did not campaign for president until Labor Day.

>> Ok.

>> So Hubie [phonetic] started his campaign in Philadelphia with a ticker tape parade. And I was involved in getting all the youth to be up on the rooftops of all the buildings throwing ticker tape down onto Hubie.

>> Oh.

[laughter]

>> Now we had secret service on top of each building making sure that there wasn't a shoe or a brick or something like that in a bag of confetti.

^M00:20:02

>> Oh wow, that's very cool.

>> It was very cool. I mean it's a memory that will last with me forever.

>> Yeah.

>> And then I had the thrill of my life because three of us got a chance to spend 20 minutes alone with Hubie in a hotel room at the Belleview. 

>> What was that like?

>> Fascinating. I mean thrilling is the best way I can put it. Thrilling beyond my wildest dreams.

[laughter]

I didn't expect it would happen. I didn't know it was going to happen and I don't even think they know it was going to happen but it just happened.

[laughter]

>> That is amazing.

>> Oh it was wonderful. And I got to meet him a couple times after that which was even better.

>> That is very cool. So would you say that these interests, would you say that you developed them at Penn State or did you kind of always have political involvement before you came to college?

>> Definitely the latter.

>> Yeah?

>> I mean Penn State helped to bring it out in me in a lot of ways, as we'll get into even further, because I wouldn't consider in my overall scheme the election of 68 to be the pinnacle of my involvement.

>> Ok. When do you think was the pinnacle?

>> I think you saw from my short bio that I put that I felt that the, that my pinnacle was my involvement during Kent State in 1970.

>> Right, yes. Could you talk a little bit more about that?

>> Sure. After the election, well you got to start that there was, well you see today that there's a, there's a very strong group that are in favor of Trump and there are an even stronger group that are against Trump, at least based on the polls.

>> Yeah.

>> That was also true in 1968. And the reason that people were principally against Nixon was because of the war. People expected Nixon to stop the war and in fact he escalated it.

>> Right.

>> So it became a very, it became a cause celebre on campuses throughout the country that Nixon was a villain. 

>> Right.

>> Now you got to look at who and what Penn State is. Penn State amongst a lot of other campuses is extremely conservative. I mean much, much, much more conservative than many of our counterparts even in the Big 10. 

>> That's true, yeah.

>> If you look at a school like Michigan, you look at a school like Wisconsin, you look at many of the other Big 10 schools, they are far more liberal

>> That's true, yeah.

>> Then, so Penn State was always pretty mild. And I mean it was very difficult to get people interested in issues.

>> Ok.

>> I mean very difficult. I mean if it was a nice sunny day and nobody had anything better to do you had a chance of getting a lot of the students from Penn State to come onto Old Main Lawn or something like that to protest whatever.

[laughter]

However when it came to this Kent State issue, well you've got to start in the beginning, what caused Kent State? Kent State was caused because there was a violent clash between the cops and student activists.

>> Right.

>> And four students, I think it was four, four students were killed. Penn State went on to high alert because of that.

>> Ok.

>> At that point I was very active in student government, I mean very, very, very active. I was involved, I was on the Faculty Senate on the admissions committee for Penn State and we were writing the admissions policy year after year.

[laughter]

I was, I had already been involved in several different committees and was head of several different commissions and committees for student government. I was active in IFC. I was president of my fraternity. So I mean there were a lot of things. I was very, the pinnacle of what I had gotten involved in was something called colloquy. Colloquy was an interaction of minds and ideas. And this interaction of minds and ideas was we brought people from all over the United States to state college to talk about various topics. And we had this going on 24 hours a day.

>> Ok.

>> And I was the program chair, which I mean literally I basically took off a semester from Penn State. Well

[laughter]

In every sense of the word. I was having vice presidents and deans calling my professors telling them why I couldn't take their exam that day.

>> Oh my gosh.

[laughter]

>> I'm being serious. I was taking second, like if a teacher had two exams before the final there were times that I was, with some of them I was taking the second exam before the first.

>> Oh my gosh.

[laughter]

>> So I was very, very close with several of the vice presidents and the president, and not so much the president but I mean one of our keynote speakers was, oh who's the guy who ran for president? He was, ran for president, he was the one, Ralph Nader.

>> Oh yeah.

>> We brought Ralph Nader to state college. Well Ralph Nader wouldn't fly on a commercial airline.

[laughter]

And he wouldn't ride in a car, especially an American car, for a lot of reasons so the only way we could get him up there was I picked up the phone and I called the president of the university. I said can I borrow your plane?

>> Oh my gosh.

[laughter]

>> I mean there is a Jewish word called chutzpah 

[laughter]

And everyone that I knew, do you know a literal, have you ever heard the word chutzpah?

>> Yeah, yeah.

>> Ok you know what the literal definition is?

>> I'm not sure. Could you tell me?

[laughter]

>> The literal definition of Chutzpah is when somebody murders their mother and father and then claims for mercy before the court claiming their an orphan.

>> Oh my gosh.

[laughter]

>> Anyway everyone said to me how did you have the chutzpah to pick up the phone? I said well I've got to tell you. But what I pulled off was an amazing feat to get the president's plane.

>> Right.

>> To get him to lend his plane to us.

>> Oh my gosh.

>> And I mean I was a scared little kid to walk in myself so I got two vice presidents who I was pretty close with to talk in there first and he starts a belly laugh. 

^M00:30:03

He just looked, he says, kid, did you bring them in as credibility for you?

[laughter]

And I just said well. And he looks at the two vice presidents, he said, don't you guys have work to do?

[laughter]

I mean I will never forget any of this. You know it, so I mean I got what I wanted and we had other, we had Ollie as a keynote speaker.

>> Oh my gosh.

>> So those were people on the left side. On the right side was a cartoonist by the name of Al Capp who you couldn't ask for anybody more conservative than Al Capp.

[laughter]

Oh and we had a guy from NBC, Sandra Vanocur, as one of the keynote speakers. And then we had one other, and I can't remember who it was who was, but I mean we had the far left or the far right. We had gay lib people. We had the far right, you know, every one, sitting on the same panel in the same room.

>> Wow.

>> I mean we had coverage up the ying yang on this and I was the program director of all of it.

[laughter]

I mean we had somebody from the Communist Party.

>> Wow.

>> And I got called into the FBI the day after 

[laughter]

By the FBI, he said to me, where did you get this man's name? And I said go to the Washington phone book, look under A for American, you'll get the American Communist Party.

[laughter]

He was not real happy with me.

>> Yeah.

[laughter]

>> Anyway that was my pedigree through colloquy. Oh and as program director also I had to get money. I had to put together the money.

>> Right.

>> Now mind you, this is back in the 70's and I put together a budget of close to $35,000 for the weekend.

>> Oh wow.

>> And people said to me well where'd you get it? And I said well I can't disclose sources.

[laughter]

What people were showing me, and I'm not going to say who, they were showing me parts of the budget where there was discretionary money available.

>> Oh ok.

>> And I was hitting up every dean. And they said kid, where'd you find this out from? I said I have no idea what you mean, dean.

[laughter]

>> That's

>> Anyway, I got, we got everything. I even got Rotsie. [phonetic] I got Rotsie to, they were running car pools from the hotel to the venues taking all the speakers back and forth.

>> That's amazing.

>> It was a fantastic weekend. So that was my pedigree to get to know a lot of the vice presidents and the deans and everything else. Kent State thing comes around and I'm called in by two vice presidents saying to me would you help us? I said well what do you want done? They said be inside Old Main on the day of the march because we're afraid of things happening.

>> Oh my gosh.

>> And I said sure. I mean they were, because at this point don't forget Wisconsin, they had blown up the Rotsie Building.

>> Oh right, yeah.

>> I don't know if you remember all this or if you've come across that in your studies. But the, you know, and we sat around in a long conversation of probably about two hours one day and we sat around and the question really came up, which we debated, should there be a state police presence on campus?

>> Right.

>> And I said absolutely not.

>> Really?

>> Absolutely not. I said you have to have some basic confidence in your student leaders and in your students.

>> Yeah. That's very cool.

>> It was extremely cool. And I got to tell you I am so proud of our administration that they went along with what the kids told them.

>> Did they?

>> Yeah.

>> Oh wow.

>> I mean I don't know what they said outside of our presence.

[laughter]

But the end result was there were state cops all around the perimeter and I said that's fine. I could care less.

[laughter]

But were there any on campus during these things, no. What happened during this rally? We had probably, I don't know, probably had 10,000, 15,000 out.

>> Oh wow.

>> It was a beautiful day. That's why.

[laughter]

One reason and everybody wanted to blow off class.

[laughter]

Well a lot of them were inside Old Main. A coffee table inadvertently got broken.

>> Ok.

>> The students put together a fund to repay the university for the broken coffee table.

>> Oh my gosh.

[laughter]

>> True story.

>> That is so funny.

>> Yeah. I mean and I got called in by an abomination of a vice president like a day after telling me I was being suspended.

>> Are you serious?

>> They said, I'm very serious. He said, I said why? He said because here we have a picture of you. I said wait a minute, who am I standing next to? He said I don't care. I said I do. I said that guy will be subpoenaed. You really want to push this?

>> Oh my gosh.

>> Oh this guy, we ended up making a recommendation to the president that he'd be fired.

>> Oh my gosh.

>> And apparently a year later he was.

>> Wow.

>> But that's giving you a backdrop of how I wound myself into a lot of these things.

>> Right.

>> Sometimes unwittingly.

[laughter]

And what I did. Where I was, what I did and how I did it.

>> That is very cool. And it's awesome that the university was like very receptive to the students wants as well.

>> The Piece De Resistance of that is this one, that same night, after all the kids left Old Main, they all went over to the Hub. And the Hub was about one-third the size it is now.

>> Yeah.

[laughter]

>> But there were like, I don't know, several thousand people inside the Hub. And the Hub, I don't know if it still does or still doesn't or whatever, but back in those days it closed at midnight.

>> Oh ok.

>> So whoever was running the Hub got up there at 11:30 and said 30 minutes until you leave. And some of these activists who I had never seen before so I was always wondering whether or not we had people on campus that we didn't know,

>> Right.

>> And that weren't our breed, so to speak.

>> Yeah.

>> You know I'm using breed in a very not, just to mean they weren't of the same mindset

>> Right.

>> That a good Penn Stater is.

>> Yeah.

>> But I'm not saying they're bad people in any manner.

>> Right.

>> So a few of us sat around with this guy that ran the Hub afterwards because he came out and he made another announcement. It's now 11:45. And all these people were screaming, we want, we're taking over the building. We're taking over the building. We're taking, so I finally, you know we all sat around with him and we said well you have security here all night, don't you, to protect whatever you need to protect? He said yeah. I said well why don't you let people just have the building?

[laughter]

I said I guarantee you by 12:30 three quarters of them will be gone if they know that they can have it.

[laughter]

And he looked at us and he looked at us and he said I don't know if I can make that call. I looked and I said why not?

[laughter]

It's your building. This is yours.

>> Right.

>> And he ended up, five minutes later he got up in front of the mic and said alright, you want the building? Go have a good time.

^M00:40:06

[laughter]

>> Oh my gosh.

>> So that's another, that's really a strong instance of Penn State listening to what their people wanted.

>> Right. That's amazing.

>> It doesn't get, you know I can tell you the many, many times it didn't happen but those were a few that I'm very proud of where Penn State did listen.

>> Right.

>> So it's, you know and I was right. By 1:00 everybody was tired and they went home.

[laughter]

There may have been a couple dozen people that hung around there. I wasn't going to hang, what the hell was I going to do there?

>> Right.

>> It wasn't like any of the food things were open.

>> Right, you're just standing around.

>> Yeah you're walking around listening, talking to each other, so what. You can do that anywhere.

>> Right. That's amazing.

>> So those are some stories of true events occurring on Penn State's campus. I can say that my, you know that was fairly close to the end of the year, junior year, 1970. My recollection is that Kent State happened in early May, which was you know six weeks before the end of the semester. Because back then we were on term.

>> Ok yeah, that makes sense.

>> And there were, yeah, we had 10 week terms, which the university has sense changed but whatever.

[laughter]

So in my senior year I was not living in the fraternity and unfortunately I was at that point moving on towards looking at law schools and stuff like that.

>> Right.

>> So I, and also I was away from the university during the winter for a different reason and that is in order to maximize the amount of time that I could stay at the university I decided to get an education thing too so that, you know, just so I wasn't going to be drafted.

>> Right.

>> And that was the other thing, I did get drafted. My draft number was six. So that was another reason why I got the education and did the student teaching because I figured the longer I can delay it the better.

>> Right, wow.

>> So I was not on campus all of winter and by the time I came back in spring it was time for me to really start saying my goodbyes.

>> Right.

>> Or at least my goodbyes as a student. I mean I've stayed very much in touch with a lot of people. I was on the Liberal Arts Alumni Board for nine years until I was aged off, not aged but termed off, whatever the term is.

>> Right.

>> So Susan Welch [phonetic] is probably my hero of the western world.

[laughter]

>> She's amazing.

>> She is an amazing human being. I love her. I've been at her home many times for dinner. She's just a fabulous person.

>> Yeah.

>> In every sense of the word, as an educator, as a human being, every possible way I could say it.

[laughter]

And my dear friend running this whole program, he's been an inspiration to me. I don't know, I keep wondering is he ever going to leave Penn State? And I hope not.

[laughter]

Because I think it would be a serious loss.

>> Yeah, that's for sure. So, I'm sorry.

>> That, I know, was a monotribe.

[laughter]

>> Oh no, that was wonderful. I really appreciate you sharing all of that. That was so cool.

[laughter]

>> Well I hope it came across as literate.

>> Yeah, no, no, it was fascinating. So we have about 10 minutes left in the interview so I guess we'll start kind of wrapping it up but I was wondering if you had any suggestions for current Penn State students, anything you would suggest for them to do or pursue or just any advice for them?

>> I'm very, I was one of the people that started the mentoring program. And have mentored, in fact I'm still in touch with several of the people that I mentored, started mentoring, 10, 12 years ago.

>> Oh wow.

>> I think it's an amazing program if done right. I think that the university should be committing more resources to it and more help to you guys to foster it because the opportunity of speaking with somebody in your area of, the areas of interest where you're interested in going to, you could hear the good parts and down parts of it.

>> Right.

>> I mean I could tell you a lot of stumbles along the way too in my career, in my time at Penn State and all of it would be just as relevant for someone to know, not that anybody should live by what anyone else says but it gives them an opportunity to hear another point of view.

>> Absolutely.

>> I think that it might be better with the mentoring program that people trade off mentors.

>> Oh, that's interesting, yeah.

>> You know you're with a mentor for six months or a year and with another mentor for six months or a year.

>> Right, to get some more perspective.

>> And I think that the university should do something about seeing whether the mentors continue with the mentee, whether the mentees continue with the mentor after college, like I've done. I've still, people come to me and say I am thinking about changing away from law, from being a lawyer and I'm really sick of being a lawyer, what do you think?

[laughter]

And I've sat and talked with them for two, three hours.

>> Oh wow.

>> So I mean I've gone to a few of their weddings.

[laughter]

I mean it's, but you have to have dedication. What else could I, that would be one area.

>> Yeah.

>> Another area that I would really strongly, well this goes back into that, and that is my belief is I don't see as much dedication from students today toward trying to take advantage of everything that a university is offering, not to say you have to take advantage of everything, but you should be taking advantage of some things.

>> Right.

[laughter]

>> A perfect example for me, I took, I didn't take nearly the amount of advantage I should have of all the IFC activities, not IFC, intramural, I'm sorry.

>> Oh ok, yeah.

>> I should have taken more advantage of some of the intramural activities. I was very active in IFC, became vice president of IFC my senior year.

>> Oh wow.

>> But 

^M00:49:50 ^M00:49:55

You know, ok and this one may be a little bit harder to swallow, students have to have inwardly within them some recognition that you will learn the rules of the road during your four years or five years, whatever you're at Penn State. And that after you learn those rules of the road in those four or five years the rest of your life will be in many instances an opportunity to play them out.

>> Right.

>> But they'll stick with you, if you really are dedicated to want to learn and the learning can come from a professor, you could have, I'm not saying mentors are things through this program. It could be a professor. It could be a dorm counselor. It could be so many different things.

[laughter]

It could be your advisor.

>> Yeah.

>> I mean I never took advantage of my advisor. I used to view my advisor as an obligation, not as something that was going to do anything for me.

>> Right.

^M00:51:31 ^M00:51:40 

The good part about Penn State that I always found is no one there locked their door. They always had time to talk, to talk through an issue. They always had some office hour policies. Even like this guy Stebbins I was telling you about in beginning,

>> Yeah.

>> I used to spend time with him. He wasn't my advisor. He wasn't, he was a professor, even after I had my class with him.

[laughter]

He would be somebody that I would go and learn life lessons from.

>> Yeah.

>> And people don't, I don't think they're taking advantage of it the way, at least, gangs my age did.

[laughter]

I don't know if that's making any sense or not.

>> No, no, that does. That's really great. Well I think we are nearing the end of the time for the interview. Is there any final things you'd like to share? Anything you feel like we didn't cover?

>> Not from my end.

[laughter]

I just want to give you an opportunity to say if something was not clear or if you are seeking additional information, feel free to get back in touch with me.

>> Great, thank you so much.

[laughter]

>> You're quite welcome. And please send my regards to everybody that's running your program.

>> Yeah absolutely. Well thank you for chatting with me.

[laughter]

>> Yeah I mean Chris is, he's one of my favorites.

[laughter]

I always have a good, I don't see or talk to him often but it's great to catch up with him when I do.

>> Yeah that's very cool.

[laughter]

>> So please say hello from me.

>> Yeah absolutely, great. Thank you so much.

>> My pleasure and again, if you need anything else please don't hesitate.

>> Great, thank you.

>> You're welcome. Will I get a chance to see how inarticulate I was?

[laughter]

>> These will be going into the archives so you can kind of, I can send you an update once it gets kind of screened and published and everything.

>> Excellent. Are other people, are they having such wordy interviews?

[laughter]

>> No, I think so. I've been talking to some other people in the class and I think everyone's having some great conversations with their interviewee.

>> Great.

[laughter]

I'm happy.

>> Yeah.

>> That makes me feel good that people are responding well.

>> Yeah, no it's a really cool assignment.

[laughter]

>> Good luck to you.

>> Great, thank you so much.

>> Take care, bye bye.

>> Bye.

Interview by Matthew Rivera

>> Good morning.  >> Morning.  >> How are you? >> Pretty good, you? >> OK.    >> All right so I'm going to start the interview here.  This is going to be a few questions just ask you about your time at Penn State was back in 1968. >> OK.   >> OK, so the first question I have for you is, what years did you attend Penn State? >> I started as a freshman in September of 1967 and graduated June of 1971.   ^M00:00:45 ^M00:00:48 >> Very good.  Interesting. And why did you choose Penn State for your university education? >> Well, it's an interesting story.  When you think about the context of how people make their decisions how to attend college today it's a much more thorough involved process with parents very much involved in the process.  Frankly, for my generation parents we re not nearly as involved.  Neither of my parents went to college and frankly I just had a -- I just lived in Philadelphia and it was a relatively non-thoughtful process.  A lot of my friends were going to Penn State.  It was close and so that's where I went.   >> Interesting, yeah a really interesting way to look at it.   >> Now it's a generational -- hold on a second. >> OK. >> Yeah, it's frankly generational.  You know, I'm sure your parents and parents today tend to be far more involved with the lives of their kids.  And part of that is because I know with my kids their life is not dissimilar to my life in terms of going to college in the like.  But that was very different for the prior generation where many of the kids were going to college -- the first in their family to go to college. >> Yeah, that is true.  Like my own parents are very involved and I'm sure like there's a large gap between the generations regarding the involvement of parents.  >> Yeah.  And yeah, and you know, just totally off the topic but in 1967 in the dorm rooms, there were no TVs, no refrigerators, no phones, there was one TV in the bottom of the dorm for the entire dorm and everyone had to agree on what they wanted to watch.  There were four phones in the hallway and everyone had to cue up to use the phone.  So it was a very, very different environment than it is today.   >> Yeah, very different indeed. ^M00:03:43 OK so if you're done there is it OK if I go to my next question? >> Sure. >> OK, so what was your major at Penn State? >> I was a psychology major. >> Interesting.  That's a very interesting major.  I actually have a sister as a psychology major too. >> And again, I wish I could tell you that it was thoughtful but it wasn't.  I just, OK, I did it and didn't really talk to anybody about.  Just sort of did it and enjoyed it.  I was not particularly thinking about the future and jobs and all the rest of that stuff, but I picked it.  >> Yeah, I can see that.  So expanding on that a little bit, was there one particular course or professor that made a lasting impression on your studies?    >> You know interestingly no.  You know, basically I, you know, was there on scholarships and loans and I really had a much more practical seismic approach to college in terms of it was a means to end to get a degree, to get a job so I could earn some money and was really not particularly focused on the academic discussions of the like and then on top of that was the turbulence of those years.  So there was really not any transformative teacher or transformative course that got me going because I pretty much new I was going to take the pre-law and try to go to law school.  And again, interestingly I'm in psychology instead of pre-law, which in hindsight was probably not great but didn't matter at the end.  So not really -- long-winded answer. >> OK. All right, that's a pretty understandable approach to it.   >> Yeah, you know again it's when you view it though -- view 40 years ago through today's lenses it's really a very different view.   >> OK, so a little bit of a shorter more straight-forward question.  What music did you like? >> Ha.  You know it's interesting because that sort of reflects the evolution of what happened at Penn State during those years.  When I was from Philadelphia and so I came to Penn State very much a total Motown soul, you know, fan and at Penn State, and again what's interesting is there were a whole wrath of concerts and all sort of venues.  There were concerts at Schwab Auditorium and concerts at Rec Hall.  There was no Bryce Jordan Center.  There was no Eisenhower Auditorium.  And you know, at Penn State we got exposed to like I saw Janice Joplin at Schwab Hall with 1,000 people.  Jefferson Airplane was 6,000 people at Rec Hall.  And my taste basically evolved over the years to more rock and away from the soul pretty much as soul also tended to fade in the late '60s early '70s.  But in my freshman year all the Motown groups played Rec Hall -- James Brown, Temptations, Four Tops, they were all there.   >> Very interesting.  I actually like that kind of music too.   >> Yeah, it's a well in fact the world is often to the fact that there are a lot of us still alive and so now it's getting played more and more.  It's ironic I enjoy seeing the vinyl albums are now back in full force and people are buying turntables.  So we've come full circle.  >> Yeah, we have.  Yeah we have come full circle it's very interesting.   ^M00:08:46 ^M00:08:48 OK, so is it OK if I ask the next question now?  >> Sure, go ahead. >> OK, so aside from music there was so much occurring in the late 1960s such as the first photos on the moon from space, or the students protesting, or the presidential election of 1968.  What were your particular interests at the time?   >> I, you know, this sounds very vapid but in 1968 I was a freshman for the first half of the year and a sophomore for the second half of the year and candidly there was relatively little in the beginning of '68.  You know I was pledging a fraternity and worrying about school, and worrying about all the social stuff.  And you know there was not a lot of consciousness.   ^M00:09:55 That consciousness started to really evolve in the -- I guess we were trimester then so really in the next first few months of February.  But it was pretty much traditional college student pursuits and not a lot of seriousness associated with it.   >> OK.   ^M00:10:27 ^M00:10:29 >> Yeah, I could see that having to and having more focus on academics and worrying about your own future and all that.  Right? >> Yeah, I mean when you're a freshman and a sophomore it seems a long way away and, you know, your horizons don't broaden until you get a little older and a little closer to having to leave the nest and go out into the cold world.   >> Yeah, I hear that.  OK, what about -- just a little bit of a side note for this question -- what was an interest that you developed before you arrived to Penn State if there were any? >> You know, really nothing.  I was interested in sports and I was attracted to, you know, I played all the immemorial sports and then through the fraternity all the sports but, you know, there was nothing that was particularly a passion like music or the like.  I was not particularly politically motivated.  I mean I think I was a relatively typical non-directed young 17-year-old college student just trying to figure it out.  You know it's interesting you talk about 1968.  When I started in 1967 in September of 1967, Penn State as an environment was much closer to 1958.  All the freshman wore little beanie's, [inaudible], everyone wore jacket and ties to football games.  There was no visitation in any of the dorms.  All the girls had to sign out and sign in and be back by a certain time.  So Penn State in 1967 and 1968 was a very, very different place than it was 1969, 1970, 1971 and the change was shockingly swift and shockingly it was not evolutionary it was revolutionary.  And 1968 was really the beginning of that change.   ^M00:13:23 ^M00:13:28 >> That's very interesting to hear.  From what I can tell it must have been very like a steep change and something that must have been very impactful for a lot of the people around at the time.   >> Oh well everybody was, you know, in 1967 there were no drugs or drugs was really not, not even close to being mainstream.  I mean it was basically this typical stuff and the music as I said were, you know, was traditional.  The haircuts were traditional and by spring of my sophomore year, which was 1969 the entire counter culture Earth Day long hair, drugs, rock, you know, that is entirely changed and by 1969 there was 24-hour closed door visitation in the dorms.   And by '71 there were co-ed dorms.  So you went from a period that was like 1958 in fall of '67 to something that was pretty similar to what you have today.  You know, closed door, 24-hour co-ed dorms.  So incredibly rapid change amidst very, very unstable background.   ^M00:15:12 That's a very interesting how it just happened all of a sudden within the span of just a few years. >> Yeah, well people -- people just, you know, rose up and said no more.  And I think that was triggered by all the events that were going on, you know, in the world at the time and increasing activism and increasing social interaction and importance on the campus and it all bubbled force with all the types of demonstrations and I mean the National Guard was on campus in 1970.  They cancelled classes spring term of I want to guess 1970 in response to Kent State so it was a everyone was up there for almost two months with, you know, very little to do.  It was great if you were a kid, you just kind of hung out.  You didn't have to go to classes.  So very, very different time with much more of an impact of what was going on nationally on the campus then I think even today.   >> I would agree too, yes.  OK, so is it OK if I go to the next set of questions. >> Sure, yeah, keep going.   >> OK, this is sort of relating to the things we just talked about except they're kind of like all in the same categories.  I'll just go ahead and ask them.  Which news sources were the most reliable for you when you were attending Penn State and why? >> Well, quite candidly there were virtually no news sources.  I mean you had newspapers, but the newspapers were sporadic and you literally had the national news was the source of news.  There was nothing online.  I don't even recall that there were cable networks.  I don't think CNN even existed then.  So your source of news was the newspaper, weekly news magazines, which I didn't read, and nightly news.  And, you know, rarely watched that.  So for the most part it was, you know, we were living in a relative information vacuum.  There were as things got more activist in the '69 and '70 more speakers came on campus and there was a higher recognition of what was going on around us but you know, in the beginning of 1968, the source of news was the television.   >> Must have been really restrained to find like very specific stories and like really get a good grasp on like everything that was happening around the world and everything. >> No it was you relied -- that's why you read the history Walter Cronkite was so important because he shaped public opinion.  Because today you have 1,000 commentators all the time on all the cable networks, all the blogs, all the Twitter, and it's much more difficult for any one individual to shape what the nation thinks about anything.  And that's why we have basically such a babble because anybody  can Tweet about anything.  And so it's a very -- it was a very, very different environment and really TV and the magazines, the weekly news magazines and even Life and Look were very, very relent in developing what was the discussion. ^M00:20:08 There was not USA Today.  USA Today didn't start until I think four or five years later.  So you have to really go back and change your mindset as to what you have daily life was like, you know obviously we didn't know from anything.  It was just life.  But compared today was much less information coming in and many less viewpoints and nobody was nearly as well informed as they could be.  But there was also not the wide deviation of viewpoints available in the public media.  I mean there was a much more mainstream homogenized flow of information.   >> Very true, very true, I agree.  OK, so I have one or two more questions.  Is it OK if I move on to those?   >> Yes. >> OK.  So the first one is, what was your favorite thing about Penn State? >> Well, I met my wife there so that was pretty good.  And, you know, I just with all the turmoil and looking back what I viewed as turmoil then and incredibly crucial earth shattering important issues that I stayed up at night about were totally irrelevant in the big scheme of what life has you grow older and have kids and jobs and stuff like that, it was just a great time.  It was, you know a time of just, you grow, and you have a lot of experiences that you never had before and you're away from home and feeling your first sense of independence and it was just really enjoyable and you know, I think it's funny I have not encountered anybody who was not passionate about Penn State.  Some of them were passionately in favor and others really hated their time there simply for whatever reason they didn't make connections with people, they thought it was too ideal, they didn't like the lack of, you know, social texture, who knows.  But nobody is ambiguous or ambivalent.  They either loved it or hated it.    ^M00:23:11 ^M00:23:14 >> That's very interesting.  So like yeah, they all seem to be very passionate about it.   >> Yeah, one way or another.  You know, not everyone is -- not everyone is wildly enthusiastic but everyone has an opinion one way or another.   >> Yeah.  Very true.  Very true.  OK and is it OK if I go to the last question?   >> Yeah.   >> OK, so this is the last question.  What is one suggestion that you would offer to current students at Penn State University. >> Frankly really appreciate the opportunity that you have for four years and enjoy it and take as full advantage of everything that you can do there that you can because frankly for the most part it is going to be the last time in your life that you will be totally unencumbered by a substantial amount of responsibilities.   Right, you know, you just can -- you're focused on going to class, studying and getting grades, you know, but unless you have a part time job there's no job, you have no kids, you, you know, you could be in a relationship or not but if you're not married very different and I think a lot of people at least when I was there were going home every weekend and really missed the ability to take advantage of all that was there and today what's available is so vastly superior and diverse and sophisticated to what was available when I was there, you know, it's just a unique opportunity that will probably never be duplicated.  So enjoy it.   >> Yeah.  That's a very important thing to keep in mind.  I totally agree with you on that.   >> Yeah, it's interesting.  Unfortunately, in a way it could be very depressing.  You know, it is just a unique time and those that don't take advantage of it -- however, that doesn't mean everybody does the same thing, it's whatever fulfills you is there to be done, take advantage of it and do it.   >> Yeah.  That's pretty much the way life works too.  >> Yeah, because once you graduate and once you have a job, you know, you can't just decide, you know, I think I'll leave at 3:00 and go lay on the lawn.   >> Yeah.  That's life.  Anyway is it OK if I have one additional question out of curiosity?  >> Sure. >> OK, so back to the like performing acts you saw in the Schwab Auditorium and all that. >> Yeah. >> Which -- how many people did you see perform again?  I'm just really curious. >> Well there were a study series of concerts throughout the fall and the spring.  Because again, the other thing to bear in mind is that all of these acts were just starting as well.  So they weren't particularly well-known.  You know, I'll give you one relatively current day example.  I have 31-year-old twins and about five years ago a friend of theirs said, you know there's this up and coming singer who is really good and she's doing a New Year's Eve show and it was in the basement of a synagogue in Washington D.C. and there were 500 people.  And it was Adele.   >> Adele. >> So all of these people that are superstars today have to start somewhere.   And back in the '60s the places that they were starting were the college campuses.  So if you go back into the collegian archive, you know I'm sure because every one of them was advertised and in fact I made the suggestion to the athletic department that at Rec Hall they have pictures of all of their teams.  They should have pictures of all of the acts and speakers that appeared there.  Martin Luther King gave a speech there.  Hubert Humphrey gave a speech there.  Bill Clinton gave a speech there.  Cassius Clay before he was Muhammad Ali gave a speech there.  And I mean there's just an incredibly rich history of what has taken place on that campus and it really isn't as well recorded as I think it could be buy there was virtually every Motown group appeared, most of the Memphis groups appeared like Sam and Dave, Crosby Stills and Nash, Jefferson Airplane, you know, it's just -- and those are just ones that you know, come to mind so but there could be six, eight concerts a year there and all in Rec Hall or Schwab.   >> Yeah, that's very interesting to think about, yes. ^M00:29:42 ^M00:29:46 OK, so that's it.  That was all the questions I had for you today.  I thank you very much for coming here today. >> Happy to do it. >> Yeah, I was happy to do it. >> All right, take care. >> Take care.  You too.   >> Bye-by >> Bye. ^E00:30:04

Interview by Bevin Pan

^B00:00:05 >> Hi!  My name is Beven Pan.  I'm a Penn State freshman, class of 2021.  And I'm attending Penn State through political science. ^M00:00:14 ^M00:00:17 >> Could you please state your name and your major and when did you attend Penn State? >> My name is Edward Stopyra, and my major at Penn State was political science. >> Ok.  Here's, why did you choose Penn State for your university education? >> Well, I had a very circuitous transfer to Penn State.  I don't know if you want to go into that now.  I actually started in 1967 and graduated in '69.  Do you want me to go into a little bit of that history? >> Yes, please. >> Ok, after, I'm sorry.  Stop me if I'm too long because it's a different kind of story. ^M00:01:06 [ Crosstalk ] ^F00:01:09 ^M00:01:10 >> What? >> I'm sorry.  I was saying it's perfectly fine.  This is the point of the interview just to know about your story. >> Ok.  I graduated from [inaudible] High School in Philadelphia in 1964.  Received a baseball scholarship from a number of colleges.  Pen State was not one of them at the time, but I think it was seven colleges locally.  I decided to attend La Salle College.  I was not happy at La Salle, although it's a very wonderful school.  I really, really wanted to get out of Philadelphia because I wanted to experience something different.  And I was in ROTC at La Salle, and the colonel in the program said why don't you apply for one of the service academies.  I always wanted to fly, so I did apply to the Air Force and Naval Academy and was accepted at those.  Decided to attend the Naval Academy.  I went there two years, and during the second summer they had flight training, first Pensacola, T28s, T34s, and then over to Jacksonville for TA4s, jets.  And that just reinforced my view that I wanted to attend, to be a Naval aviator.  When I got back, I had to go, to do a physical, and before I went to submarine training in New London, Connecticut and found out that I had a minor eye problem and that I could never fly in the Navy.  I could be a Naval flight officer, but I could not actually fly the plane.  So after a great deal of deliberation, I decided to leave the Naval Academy, which was a very difficult decision after two years especially.  And I always thought highly of Penn State and I decided to go there.  The interesting thing was that it took me a while, and because, the Congress and all that to get out of the Naval Academy, probably three weeks.  I didn't get out of there until September or August.  And the orientation at Penn State had already started.  So I had to actually make an appointment with a vice president and talk my way in.  So it's an interesting story.  I actually had sat in his office for three or four hours.  I don't think he wanted to talk to me.  But I sat there and was persistent.  And I actually was started with the, started on the Naval Academy baseball team as a sophomore.  The vice president wanted to make sure that I, there was not an Honor Code violation or I wasn't thrown out of the academy.  He called a number of people and that's the way I got into Penn State.  It was actually after orientation and he said, well, we don't have any housing except for World War II barracks.  And I said World War II barracks will be just fine.  So that's, in a capsule, how I got to Penn State. >> Wow, that's pretty long story but thank you for sharing that.  And you mentioned you were in the baseball team at the time? ^M00:04:17 >> Yeah, I actually started for Navy and we beat Penn State and went on, it was, when I was at Navy, and then of course we played them when I was at Penn State.  Now when I transferred to Penn State, I had to sit out a year per NCAA rules.  So I practiced with the team, with Coach Medlar, and he actually gave me a scholarship the second, we were on a quota system then, the last quarter there.  And then all of my senior year.  And I ended up starting as a center fielder and left fielder on the 1969 team.  So yes, I, matter of fact I was on scholarship and I was very thankful for that. >> That's pretty awesome.  So what was it like being in the varsity baseball team at the time because we know NCAA these days is, there's a lot more commercial rules, especially with regard to all the new forms of technology.  People can't advertise themselves online.  And baseball players were basically campus celebrities.  Was it kind of like the same thing in 1968? ^M00:05:31 >> I don't know if I would say that.  I think, of course, I think the football players were more so.  But the thing that I really respected about Penn State to be honest with you, Deven, is that unlike a lot of schools, we interacted with all the rest of the student body.  We didn't have athletic dorms.  I don't think the football players did.  I got to know a lot of the football players but also a lot of the students who were not athletes.  And that's one of the things that I really loved about Penn State.  I went to a concert and I saw, and on the stage playing was, what is his name?  John Reed?  Not John Reed, but anyway, he was an All American football player.  And I was so impressed with that.  So yeah, we weren't celebrities.  Penn State kind of played that down.  We were, we did the best we could.  We were athletes, but we were also integrated into the student body, which we enjoyed very much. >> Awesome.  So you mentioned you went to a lot of concerts at the time?  What were some of your favorite cultural events to go to on campus? ^M00:06:35 >> Well, I enjoyed concerts.  I wish I'd remember the name, Reed was his last name.  I think he was a concert pianist or he played professional football.  I can't remember.  But I feel badly that, but he wrote a lot of really great music, but he was also a great football player.  But I enjoyed the concerts.  I can't remember the bands or any of that sort of stuff.  But also on the weekends, the wrestling, the gymnastics were outstanding, of course football, and I went to all the games.  And I sold the programs at the games.  That's one way that I made a little bit of extra money.  And actually Coach Medlar got me a job cleaning the uniforms.  So I worked in the laundry cleaning the uniforms for the football team during my junior year when I was on scholarship and I could only practice with the team.  I couldn't play.  And of course, then there was baseball.  But there was so much to do at Penn State.  It was limitless and I really, really enjoyed that.  You would just pick and choose the thing that you wanted, and I certainly took advantage of that. ^M00:07:43 ^M00:07:46 >> Awesome.  It sounds like a lot of big name artists came.  So what kind of music did you like at the time? >> Well, I liked concert music.  I like modern, you know, the modern hits at the time.  So I really liked the diversity of things.  As a matter of fact I, and I can't remember the songs, but I liked big bands.  But I also liked the most popular songs of the day.  There were, I remember that there were quite a few sad ones because it was a really difficult time in 1969.  I think that if you look back, we, at that time faced the draft, which meant that you were eligible to go to, you know, be taken to the Army, Navy, whatever they chose.  I actually had to serve five more, four more years after I left the Naval Academy, and I was in the enlisted at that time.  So they could have called me up any time and I would have been in Vietnam.  That didn't happen, but I did have to go to Altoona every Tuesday night, which is 50 miles away, in my uniform and do my Reserve duty and then two weeks during the year.  So it was a very different time and there was a lot of anxiety and that sort of thing.  But getting back to your thing about the songs, I think the songs oftentimes at that time reflected some of the things that were going on, the Vietnam thing and all that.  But there were good, you know, there were upbeat songs as well.  But I can't name them, to be honest with you. ^M00:09:23 >> Yeah, it's fine.  I certainly agree with the fact that a lot of the songs are perfect reflections of what was going on at the time because there was so much going on and it's like, you know, you got the first photos from the moon and then you get student protests about the war, about everything, and then there's a presidential election.  So what were some of your particular interests at the time, news like? >> As a student you mean? >> That -- >> For news? >> Yes. >> Did you say news or what? >> News, yes. ^M00:09:58 >> Well, I was in political science, so I kept up with all the political events and that sort of thing.  It was interesting because when I was at the Naval Academy I, well, at La Salle I took a whole year of classes and I did well in those.  And then when I went to Naval Academy, that was all engineering.  So I had two years of calculus.  I had physics.  I had statistic dynamic, organic chemistry, and all that.  But I really wasn't interested in that.  I was doing it simply to be a pilot.  When I went to Penn State, I had so many credits, and I wanted, I was interested in history and political science.  And I fell in love with Chinese and East Asian history.  And I remember a professor that was significant in that, Mr. William Duiker, great professor.  And so I became very interested in Chinese history, East Asian history.  I did research with Dr. Edward Keynes, who I, who just passed away about two years ago.  And he published a book and my name is in it because I did research for him.  So I was really keeping up with the world affairs and that sort of thing.  Matter of fact, I took tests for the Foreign Service, CIA, but I didn't care for that.  And then one day I walked into this counseling office and they said so, you [inaudible], what about teaching?  Have you thought about teaching?  And he said, I said I mean I haven't taken any education courses.  Said, well, there's MAT program, Masters of [inaudible] Teaching.  And he said there's, so he gave me some names.  And what you did was you go there for a year or two, you got a masters degree, but you also got your teaching certificate.  So I thought I'd try that and that's what I did.  I went through Brown University.  I was accepted to JU and Jackson University, Temple University, and Brown University.  I went to Brown.  But I was very much aware of the world around me.  I mean it was interesting also that I'd been going from a Naval, a military academy to a civilian college like Penn State where there were the SDS, the Students for a Democratic Society were doing their thing and rallies and all that sort of thing.  So it was an interesting cultural change for me. ^M00:12:11 ^M00:12:14 >> Awesome.  You mentioned, you know, because it's a civilian college there's a bunch of, these were [inaudible] protests and other forms of activism.  Did you participate in any of them? >> Well, what I did was I attended them and I was saddened.  And I understood, being a political science major, that the war in Vietnam was very controversial and that I understood why the flag was at half mast.  I said, and we would talk about this.  And I would say I understand that.  I understand your point about that.  What I don't understand about what you're doing is criticizing the parents that are at these rallies.  You spit on them.  You're doing these sorts of things.  And I've experienced these things.  I said it's not all of you, that's a generalization, but how could that happen?  These people that are over there, many of them are there because they're not in college and therefore they don't have that ability to go to college to get a 2.0 and stay out of Vietnam.  They don't have any choice in the matter, so why are you criticizing them?  And that's the point that really, really disturbed me because I don't, I personally didn't think we should be there either.  But what we did to the military during that time was just, I thought, an awful thing. ^M00:13:32 ^M00:13:35 >> Wow.  So -- >> You needed to be there because it was very, very emotional.  But as far as actually being an activist, I think probably I was an activist on the other side trying to give the other side of the story.  These kids didn't have a choice to be in Vietnam.  And therefore how they were treated when they were returned, when they returned from Vietnam was abominable.  And the other aspect of that was just because you went to college and could get into college you got a dispensation as long as you kept a 2.0.  Well, I didn't think that was all that fair even though I was part of it. ^M00:14:15 ^M00:14:17 >> Wow.  So a lot of this has to do with the amount of information and news stories that people were getting and perspectives that they're getting.  So where did you obtain your news?  Did you watch TV or did you read the Daily Collegian? >> I just read the newspapers.  I was doing a lot of research.  As a matter of fact I was doing research in the Congressional record on all sorts of foreign legislation and what do you call it, domestic legislation because that was part of the course requirements in many of the courses I was taking.  I was taking legislative process.  I was taking foreign affairs.  I was doing the, so a lot of it was basically research on my own part, reading newspapers, but also reading the Congressional record on policies that were being established and the debates that were going on, that sort of thing.  And of course the professors kept us up to date in what they were assigning and that sort of thing. ^M00:15:19 ^M00:15:21 >> Awesome.  And this is just out of curiosity.  Who did you watch the moon landing with? ^M00:15:26 ^M00:15:28 >> Where did, who did, I don't even remember, to be honest with you, Deven.  But I remember watching.  But that was a couple years ago, you have to remember now.  I'm 71 years old. >> I understand, yeah. ^M00:15:42 ^M00:15:44 But you know, a lot of people were saying, like I remember seeing statistics that 30% of people watched it with Walter Cronkite and then another like 20% watched on other channels.  But they were just saying how impactful this guy is, so I was just, out of curiosity. >> Well, I used to watch Walter Cronkite all the time, and we didn't have that many options to be honest with you.  Now you have MSNBC or whatever and Fox and CNN and everything else.  But then we, you know, Walter Cronkite was pretty much it.  So we, I guess we were hoping that he was telling us the truth. ^M00:16:25 ^M00:16:28 >> Well, certainly people were much more likely to believe in the news back then. ^M00:16:35 ^M00:16:37 >> That is very, very true.  And I think it is a real shame that, what has happened today.  I don't know what your political bent is.  Doesn't matter to me.  I respect everybody's opinion.  But I can honestly say I do not believe the media today.  I just don't believe that we're being told the entire, the truth, and I believe that there's subterfuge.  There's actually agendas out there, and I don't think that's the really, the job of a reporter.  I think that their job is to provide all of us with the truth and then for us to make up our minds.  And I think that you have to really, really dig today to find out the truth, whether you're on whatever side of the aisle.  And I think that's really a shame. ^M00:17:27 ^M00:17:29 >> Yeah, I have to like read a bunch of papers at the same time to read the same story just to get what's going on. >> Yeah, and you know, the thing about it is I used to really, really enjoy substantive debate, and they occurred at that time.  And they, the people respected each other.  And I'm generalizing them, but compared to now, I don't think people on either side of the aisle respect each other.  There's [inaudible].  There's name calling.  Where is the substantive debate?  Because we're all here for the same reason, to make this country great.  I think.  And I'm not seeing that, and I feel badly for you guys because I don't know how you're finding out the truth to be honest with you.  I think there's a lot of -- ^M00:18:20 ^M00:18:23 -- I don't know what you would call it.  Even on college campus, I don't, I haven't been on the college campus recently.  I don't know what you guys are getting.  I'd be interested in that.  As a matter of fact, the class of 1969 needs to reverse this and to interview you guys to see what's going on.  That -- >> Yeah. ^M00:18:41 ^M00:18:43 >> But I hope you're getting, I hope that, I hope that what's happening in college today is that students are being critical of, and finding out the answers to both sides of the issue.  That's my hope.  And I don't know if that's happening.  You would know better than I do. ^M00:19:02 ^M00:19:04 >> Well, I can tell you that it's pretty polarized on campus, politically. >> Really? >> Yeah.  But I think a lot of people, especially political science majors like me, are trying their best to read all kinds of news sources trying to, trying their best to like make sure that what they're getting is the right answer so they can rationalize it themselves and they can make their own educated opinion.  That's what we're trying to do.  But especially with those who are not in the political science major, because everybody has an opinion in politics these days.  It's -- >> Right. >> -- not going.  People are trying but it's pretty polarized. ^M00:19:46 >> Well, I hope that the, you know, and I always respected the Penn State professors that I had.  They appeared to give both sides of the story.  And I hope the professors at Penn State are doing that.  I do keep up with the people from liberal arts and athletics and all that.  They come down and see me and we chat.  I hope that the professors are not simply giving one side of the story.  I hope that they, I hope you don't even know your professor's opinion or whatever because I taught a long time.  My whole thing was in education.  My students did not know my political bent.  And I tried very, very hard to present both sides of the story.  If they were taking one side, I would take the other.  And they never really did know what my political agenda, political bent was.  And I just hope that the teachers at Penn State in political science and other areas are doing the same thing, because if not, they're doing a disservice to students.  And if there's an agenda in some of the, and I think there are, there is in some colleges, I hope Penn State rises above that to be honest with you, Deven. >> Yeah, I [inaudible] compared to a lot of the more -- ^M00:21:06 ^M00:21:09 -- more private colleges, Penn State is doing a pretty good job at staying pretty neutral when it comes to school policies and also guaranteeing free speech.  But arguably some people say they guarantee it too much, to give, to give hate speech room.  But that's a completely other story. >> Yeah.  Well -- ^M00:21:30 ^M00:21:31 -- I think if they, they have a wonderful, wonderful donor base and I can tell you this from my perspective.  If they end up being a university with an agenda that is one sided, they're going to lose a lot of support.  I'm not saying that they are or I'm not saying that they, that's not a threat of anything that I, I just feel that that's what the university was and it's my hope that it continues that way.  That's what education is supposed to be about. >> I certainly agree. >> Yeah, I mean, and there are schools, and I, this is [inaudible].  I was in education for 34 years.  And some of the places I visited, there is no question in my mind there's an agenda.  What is that?  I mean gosh, present both sides of the story here.  Let's get to the facts.  These people are intelligent.  They can make up their own minds if they're given the information, the correct information.  But when there's agenda, and I hope Penn State doesn't do that.  So I wish you the best of luck and I applaud you, your attempt to get both sides of the story and all that sort of thing.  And I think it's difficult.  But good luck with that. >> Thank you.  Thank you.  So would that be the suggestion you would offer to current students at Penn State? >> Absolutely.  And it's, and you know, I understand there are many -- ^M00:23:08 ^M00:23:12 -- people with strong feelings about certain things.  And I know that the students are influenced by their families, by all sorts of things.  I do think that young people like you are being pressured by agendas today.  And I would just hope that young people today take a good look at everything around them and look at all sides of it.  Try to get to the truth of the matter, of whatever it might be.  And then make your individual decisions.  And I hope that, also that young people today respect each other and that there can be substantive discussions without animosity and all that.  I'm seeing a lot of things that are being said by one side or the other being shouted down and demonization just because you have an opinion.  That's just not right, I don't think.  I think that you certainly can be passionate about something, but if passion takes over reality and the quest for truth, then I think there's a problem.  So yeah, that would be a hope of mine for young people, for this country, for everyone. ^M00:24:42 ^M00:24:45 >> Awesome.  Awesome.  Thank you so much for your time.  And I'm going to have to end here.  But -- ^M00:24:52 ^M00:24:54 -- I really appreciate the advice that you've given and I really appreciate the stories you shared.  And I hope you have a nice day.  I'm going to stop recording right now.

>> Can you hear me?
>> Yes, I can hear you. 
>> Okay.
>> Okay. So, can you go ahead and just state your name for me?
>> Linda Strumpf. 
>> Okay. And do you want to give me a little bit of background on who you are, when you graduated, what you studied?
>> Sure. I enrolled at Penn State-- I actually transferred to Penn State in the fall of 1967 to be with my then boyfriend, my now husband of 49 years, Jonathan Strumpf, who's sitting here with me. So, I enrolled in 67, I graduated I think in February of 69; I was at George Washington University before that. I majored in economics and when I graduated in 69 I took a job for a year and at Prudential Insurance in Newark. I then went back and got my MBA in Finance at New York University and spent the rest of my 47-year career in the investment world, primarily in the non-profit sector. I was the chief investment officer at the Ford Foundation in New York, which at the time was the largest foundation in America. And then retired from that, I became the chief investment officer at the Helmsley Charitable Trust and retired from there in 2011. 
>> Awesome. And you attended-- so Penn State, you attended-- you graduated in 1968 you said?
>> Sixty-nine.
>> Sixty-nine, okay.
>> I spent my last two years, my junior and senior years at Penn State.
>> And why did you choose Penn State for your university education?
>> Because I had met my husband after my freshman year and spent our sophomore year, he would-- he'd trek down to Washington or I would get a ride up to Penn State, and we decided after a year of that I really enjoyed my visits to Penn State and I would transfer up there, primarily to be with him, but I also enjoyed the-- the atmosphere at Penn state because GW was a very good school but it was in a very urban environment and I came from an urban environment, I just liked the whole campus feel at-- at University Park so I transferred up there to be with him.
>> Was there a particular course or professor that had a lasting impression on your studies?
^M00:02:22
>> I think all the courses in economics, I had been through a couple of majors, I'm sure most people go through that; I started out in political science and journalism, and when I first took economics courses at Penn State I just found a natural affinity. I have a very logical, people say, a linear mind the way my mind works and economics was scientific enough that I could understand what was going on. I'm not a scientist but it was just a very good blend for me of understanding, you know, political, how do pol-- how do politics influence the economy, how economy influences politics, so it was just a great fit for me. I don't particularly remember any professors, it's been almost 50 years, so I don't remember particular professors, but I just remember learning an awful lot, and then, as I said, I went and got an MBA in finance after-- after that, and that was not a very typical thing to do in those days. There were not very many women in economics and finance back in the late 60s so I was a pioneer for-- in many ways.
>> Awesome.
>> As a matter-- the joke of the family was when I told my parents I was majoring in economics my mother said you're not very good in-home economics; you can't sew and you can't cook. I said I wasn't majoring in home economics, I was majoring in economics, so it was interesting.
^M00:03:45
>> What kind of music were you fond of growing up?
>> Well we grew-- we grew up in the 50s so it was, sort of, the early days of rock and roll and Elvis Presley and people like that. But then the Beatles probably and Simon and Garfunkel, Dylan, the folk-- actually folk music was probably the most important influence on all of us. Judy Collins, Joan Baez. Who else? Peter, Paul and Mary, Guthrie, Dylan, so a combination of folk, rock, you know, it was the 60s and the-- sort of the era of protest music was starting, so those were all important to us.
^M00:04:31
>> Where did you get or obtain your news from when you were in college?
>> Probably, again a d-- a very different era; most of the stuff didn't exist then that exist now. Probably the New York Times, I mean, I read the paper; even in high school bef-- you know, before I went to college I was very active politically in the 1964 campaign, which was when I was in high school, which was Barry Goldwater versus Lindon Johnson; I was, you know, involved even in high school when-- when Kennedy ran. So, you know, in those days it was basically the newspaper from out of the New York Times, and then, you know, sort of the network news, you know, Brink-- Huntley-Brinkley, I think most people watched the evening news to get their source of information, Walter Cronkite, people like that. The internet didn't exist so we couldn't get it from any of the sources people get it from now.
>> Yeah. Would you say you've noticed a change since you were reading the New York Times to today's kind of media outlets?
>> Oh definitely. You know, journalism was-- people respected journalism, respected media outlets, and now people, sort of, have their own tribal view of the world, and so if you're on one side of the political spectrum or the other you only believe the new-- the news outlets that seem to tell you what you want to hear. I-- I think, sort of started with talk radio with some of the conservative channels there and Fox News. And then on the other side you have the liberal media outlets and I think there was more trust in the news people and the journalists in those days than there is now. Now everybody seems to think, you know, the term fake news is the most obvious, I think, manifestation of that where people just don't believe anything they read in mainstream media outlets. or at least some people don't; I tend to believe most of them, but-- and I think the whole splintering of-- of news outlets; people can put anything on the internet or on video without checking it, without any of the journalistic standards and having spent a year as a journalism major learning how a journalist is supposed to generate stories and the fact checking and how you write an article, you know, there doesn't seem to be very much of that, so people can put anything on the internet and there is some segment of people that believe it, so it's a massive difference from-- from my youth.
^M00:07:12
>> So, there was a lot going on in the 1960s. You had moon photos from space and student protests and the presidential election of 68. What were your particular interests at that time?
>> Obviously politics, poli-- the-- the war was g-- the war in Vietnam was going on and so again it was the earlier days of the anti-war movement and my then boyfriend, now husband and his family were very much against the war. They-- it was a draft, so for young men and-- women were not in the military in those days, but for young men getting out of college it was a real worry whether they were going to get drafted or not so we were very politically involved. We both actually were involved with the-- when Senator Gene McCarthy ran for president in the democratic primary; we actually were volunteers and went-- they sent us to Altoona to knock on doors to do that and that was-- Tyrone, my husband corrected me, I'm sorry Tyrone, Pennsylvania, to knock on doors for Gene McCarthy, which was an interesting-- 
^M00:08:13
Yeah, and my husband had to cut his hair because it was called-- it was called the Clean for Gene Campaign because all the college students had to cut their hair and their sideburns and shave off their beards in order to look presentable, and so he did that and we would do that. I was very involved in the-- you know, it was a confluence. What was interesting, thinking about this for-- for the interview, it was really interesting because you had the war and the politics surrounding that, you had the beginning of the women's movement, you had the beginnings of the civil rights movement in the early 60s but certainly into the late 60s. It was a little early for any kind of gay rights movement, but it was probably the biggest see change in-- in our society and how people looked at their role, I think, probably in a century just of maybe women getting to vote in the early part of the century, it was really a monumental shift in how people thought about rights and active-- and activism and marches. We went on anti-war marches, we went on pro-civil rights marches, we went on women's rights marches, so we were very politically active and very involved in that whole scene. And Penn State, actually, was, sort of, so-- I don't want to say backward; we were sort in a-- my husband used the word insulated from it because there were a lot of other campuses, Columbia and New York, even University-- I had a friend at University Wisconsin where they were much more politically active. Penn State student body, at the time, was not particularly engaged in this, so the demonstrations were, sort of, few and far between. Wait, my husband's saying something.
>> Yeah yeah, there was a group of activist students called the students for democratic society, SDS, and it was looked upon as a radical fringe group, whereas in the reality of it was they were simply expressing opposition to the war and a desire for activism and it was very much looked down upon, although there were some activist events that occurred at the university at that time, but it was looked at in a very negative way. Penn State was very insulated from the rest of the political word and it took-- took a while for that to kind of change, and it has changed, happily.
^M00:10:48
>> I think the other aspect of it was, and I was thinking about this the other day, that the university, at the time, had a very very different kind of student body than it does now. It was much more in state Pennsylvania residents versus now where there's probably-- University Park, I think the number is something like 30 to-- 30 or 40%-- 30 or 40% out of state. There's a lot more international students, there's a lot more African American students, so it was just not a very diverse community at the time, and also the fact that it was more in state I would characterize a lot of the students as being from suburban and rural areas and so the whole, sort of, protest movement was not really in that kind of population as much, so I think that's part of the-- part of, sort of, my observation.
^M00:11:46
>> Interesting. Now this political activism interest, did this develop while you were at Penn State or did you have this before arriving on campus?
>> I had it before. As I said, I was, you know, I was involved when I was in high school in political campaigns, so that pre-- and the fact that I originally went to GW as a political science major, I was very interested in politics before that.
>> What's one suggestion that you would offer to current students at Penn State?
>> One suggestion. To know as much and understand as much about other people and other points of view. I think people tend to get insulated that they-- they get their views from their friends or their family or whatever.
>> Tolerance.
>> My husband used the word tolerance; I think that's a good word. Tolerance for other people, understanding when you-- and try to meet people and interact with people who are different than you. People tend to be fairly tribal and that's manifesting itself in neg-- negative ways. 
^M00:13:02
So, I think just trying to understand people. I mean there-- there should be opportunities for people on campus to be able to interact with, whether they're foreign students or people from just very different backgrounds, and I know Penn State encourages helping people, encourages a lot of extracurricular activities, but the more you can interact with people that are not like you I think is-- is a good thing because it prepares you for the world of work later on because you're not going to be in a situation where you're only dealing with people that fr-- come from, you know, similar backgrounds, you're going to have people from all over the world that you're working with or different ethnic backgrounds, so I think the more you can understand other people the better it is [coughs]. Excuse me.
^M00:13:49
>> Definitely. Now this isn't one of the questions I'm supposed to ask but I have to ask, 49 years of marriage, that's amazing. do you guys have advice or the secret that you would offer people that are just, kind of, starting these relationships?
>> Find things you enjoy to do together.
>> Yeah, my husband said find things you enjoy doing together, which we do. We are from the time when we first got married right out of school to-- to now, we've always traveled the world together, even when we couldn't afford it. We did it cheap. We can now afford a higher quality of travel. We both are scuba-- we learned how to scuba dive together, so any kind of activity, whether it's sports or anything like that. We're very into the arts; we go to the theatre a lot. I go to ballet, things like that. So, developing interests together. In our case, we didn't have kids. I'm not sure that's a plus or a minus, it depends who you talk to. I think you have to work on your relationship a lot more. A lot of people stay together because of the kids and I'm not sure and it puts some stresses on marriage, so maybe not having kids helps. I don't know, in our case, you know, it's just that's the way things worked out. And, you know, again, I think just having things in common that you like to do together. And respecting each other. And I think the interesting thing for me was I grew up in an era where women did not have the kind of career that I ended up having and a lot of men probably could not have, you know, coped with a-- with a successful women-- woman in those days, a successful wife in those days, and my husband had his moments early on where he said well you're traveling again and you're going off and you're doing these things. And I said, well, you know, yeah, but it's important to me and I think a lot of men, you know, could not have handled the transition and I've-- and the same thing goes with-- with-- with, you know, flipping it around, I think people grow and change a lot, you know, from-- again, people don't tend to get married right out of school anymore, it was more common when we were getting out of school, but I think that people are waiting longer, which is good, because you sort of develop your own personality and your own style and I changed so much from the time I went to college for the, you know, after that, so you just have to be able to adapt to a different-- different personality and different way of thinking about things. So, anyway, I'm not sure that's any great help for anybody, other than having a lot of-- trying to find things in common. 
^M00:16:24
>> No that's really interesting. So that was really all my questions. Do you have anything else that you want to add about your Penn State experience, how it's impacted you, any other comments?
>> No. I mean, I think we-- we both had a great experience at Penn State. It was a great blend of being able to take really great courses with great professors. You know, in the era we were there there wasn't much in the way of, you know, semesters abroad; if it existed I don't think we knew about it. Now it's more typical; I would encourage people to take advantage of those opportunities. They have a lot of activities and I think one of the things that when you go out into the world people are looking for, you know, academic achievements, but also leadership, so anything you can do that encourages your ability to show that you've led an organization is great, so I think Penn State encouraging that among their students is terrific. I see you're involved in the ju-- criminal ju-- not criminal-- the justice, you're chief justice. I mean, I think it's great. I think it demonstrates to other people that you're serious, that you work hard, you have to obviously manage your time effectively when you're doing things like that. So again, I think Penn State is very well respected out in the world and I think people need to take-- take advantage of what's there for the four years or so that you're there because at the end of the day when you graduate you're going to look back, you know, 10 or 15 years in the future and say I wish I learned more about x. I mean for-- I'll give you an example. You know, we go around the world, we go to art museums and I'll say, God, I wish I had taken more, you know, as an elective, more of an art history or-- or music appreciation or whatever so I would know a little bit more, but you're so busy taking the courses you need to fulfill your obligations that at some point you have to sort of sit back and say, you know, what-- what am I going to use the rest of my life and what's going to be important to me and-- and so I think Penn State has done a great job at having a very broad curriculum and getting students engaged in research early on. I know when my husband majored in psychology and I know he was always involved in doing all kinds of experiments and things like that, so they involve you in with the professors very early on, which I think is also a very good thing, so. But that's about it. No, it's been a great experience. I served on the board for 12 years, on the Board of Trustees; I don't know if you knew that but I was on the board at Penn State for a long time and I'm on the liberal arts-- I was on liberal-- the initial liberal arts development committee, things like that, so.
>> Distinguished alum.
>> I'm a distinguished alum. So, I mean, I've paid back Penn State many times over. I wouldn't do all those things, which were very time consuming, if I didn't really feel strongly about the university.
>> Yeah. Well thank you for your time and I'll email you once we have your oral history up on our 1968 site and I encourage you to look at the other oral histories; it's a really awesome project that's being done by other students, so.
>> Great.
>> Thank you again.
>> Great. I hope you get to learn a lot about-- about 1968, I mean it was a very different time and, you know, one of the things that sometimes scares me a little bit is, you know, particularly for young women now, I think it's wonderful that women have all these great opportunities, but you have to remember, when my generation was graduated from college the number of opportunities for somebody with, you know, a degree from a top university were really limited, much less our mothers and our grandmothers who had very little choice about what they could do in terms of a career. So sometimes I get the feeling that some of the younger women don't appreciate and don't-- and they take for granted the things that we fought for and we marched for and we demonstrated for, you know, the ability to, you know, be taken seriously, to have a-- get a job, equal pay, the whole glass ceiling thing, and I think it's great things have changed, but some-- I, you know-- what-- what government can grant government can take away, and I fear for the future because I think some of the characters in congress right now they could roll the clock back to 1955 where women--
>> White House.
^M00:20:46
>> Yeah, in the White House, and if they can turn the clock back and have all women stay home and not work, I think they would do it, so I hope young women take-- take the environment very seriously. But anyway, I look forward to seeing the-- the outcome of the project. 
>> Yes, thank you.
>> Okay, bye bye.

Interview by Trent Uhlemann

>> Get started on the recording.  Would you real quickly, please state your name.  

>> Jay Stile [assumed spelling].  

>> Thank you.  And this is Trent Uhlemann.  So just real quickly, you had a chance to read through the release form?    >> Yes.  

>> Okay.  All that's good?  

>> Yeah.  

>> Good.  Last anywhere from 30 to 60 minutes, so.  

>> Okay.  I hope I can be useful there.  As I said, all this is 50 years ago.  So it's not easy for some of us who are 69 years old.  But it was interesting to, I spent a little bit of time sort of doing some reading on things.  And some of it comes back to me and some doesn't.  But we'll see where it goes.  Thank you.    >> Yeah, for sure.  So first thing what years did you attend Penn State?  

>> Well, my, I began my freshman year in the fall of 1966.  And graduated in four years, leaving in the spring or May or June of 1970.  So 1968 was smack dab in the middle of my four years there.  It would have been the last half of my sophomore and first half of my junior year.  

>> Okay.  So you got a pretty good experience.  And then you went on to dental school after that?  

>> No, not dental school.  You may have me confused with another respondent.  I was, I went to work right away with the Department of Labor.  And then wound up getting a Master's in business administration, going to school evenings actually while I was working at Widener University.  I'm not a dentist.  I went on and later became a chief financial officer at Mathematica.  

>> Okay.  That actually clears up a lot.  Yeah, because in the initial e-mail, there were definitely some conflicting things there.  

>> It looked like two files got merged together somehow.  So some of the information in that first e-mail was correct.  And the other part of it had no relationship to me at all.  

>> Okay.  

>> And I remember at the time I got it I had given Chris Gamble, I guess, a call, who was a little bit puzzled by it too.  But that first one was totally sort of bogus in the way it was put together.  

>> Okay.  All right.  I guess I'm going to real quick pull up that second part then.  So I don't ask you anything.    >> Sure.

>> From a different person.  So why did you initially choose Penn State?  

>> I think at the time I was looking at colleges, I was mostly focused on many of the small liberal arts colleges.  And Pennsylvania happened to, unfortunately lose my father in my, winter of my junior year of high school.  And that changed our financial situation quite a bit.  

>> Yeah, I'm sure.  

>> And part of the reason then came down to finances.  I was able to get a scholarship at the time.  I think it was through the Pennsylvania Higher Education Assistance Agency that covered, if my memory is right here again.  The tuition I think at the time I began was something like 900 or $950.  And the scholarship paid about 700 or 750.  So it.  

>> Wow.  

>> Went a long way toward helping me.  And then with some other money that our family had.  I also had some pretty good summer jobs working actually at a beer case factory, a cardboard box factory.  I was from Lancaster, Pennsylvania.  And 2.40 an hour that we made back then over the course of the summer kind of.  

>> Wow.  

>> Filled in the gaps and paid for the, pretty much the rest of my expenses.  So it wasn't my original intention.  And I do have to say at the time, Penn State was a bit easier to get into than it has since become.  So that was a good place to wind up going.  I was also looking at University of Pittsburgh I guess as.  

>> Okay.  

>> An option.  And then I was accepted in some other schools like Muhlenberg I think.  And Albright.  And I forget exactly where else.  One of the others one I think around Allentown also that were all, you know, relatively close to home.  

>> Okay.  So it wasn't your initial option.  But were you happy with your decision?  

>> Yeah, I think I was and remain, you know, happier even since I graduated.  It was, well, it was the Happy Valley, you know, it was a terrific experience.  I'm not sure even now that a student can kind of replicate that all that easily in other places.  And I think, you know, living away from home in a place like that, you wind up learning as much sometimes as, through your living experiences as you do in the classroom, and.  

>> Yeah.  

>> And I look back at all that very favorably.  

>> Absolutely.  Especially at such a turbulent time too.  

>> Yeah.  I know, and we'll get there in a little bit.  It wasn't always obvious it was turbulent to us at the time.  Certainly when you look back at all the events that happened over that time, it was.  And I'll let you lead me with the questions.  But, you know, things, particularly involving Vietnam, had a big impact on our lives as students.  

>> Okay.  So before we get into that sort of thing.  With regards to classes.  Did you have any particular course or professor that made a lasting impression on you that you remember?  

>> Yeah.  Gee, I wish I could remember all their names.  But I was a labor management relations major.  And that was a very small department at the time.  And we got to know our professors quite well.  And my memory of all their names isn't all that great.  There was one in particular that we had a small senior seminar course.  

>> Okay.  

>> With I think there were only about 10 or 11 students in it, who was just terrific.  And it was very informal.  And it was at the time a fairly sort of left or liberal leaning kind of department, where a number of the graduates were looking to go on and work for labor unions.  Or do organizing and things like this.  And this was certainly his background.  I remember he drove a Citroen, which even now would be a very unusual car to ever see in the United States.  And it was at the time in state college.  It was, it had a hydraulic lift or something like that in the shock absorbers.  You'd turn the thing on, and the car would rise up about a foot.  

>> Wow.  

>> The other kind of unusual personal thing I remember about the course, I think he, for our final exam our senior year, he took us to a bar.  And poured us all, you know, ordered a round of shots or something like that.  And sort of jokingly said, if you want an A, you've got to get below the line on the shot glass, you know, on your first sip.  But he was a terrific guy.  My, the head of the department, I think it was my advisor who was also very good, was Helmut Golatz [assumed spelling], who I think was quite well regarded in that field.  He was not necessarily the flamboyant personality of the gentleman I'm trying to think of.  The other professor, I have to tell you that everybody at Penn State remembers.  And it had nothing to do with my major.  But there was a geology professor that taught, that was G [inaudible] 20 was the course.  Sort of an introductory geology course.  And, you know, you have to get a certain amount of science requirements out of the way.  And his name was Latmen, Larry Latmen    [assumed spelling].  And his lectures were so entertaining that people who weren't even taking the course would go to sit in on some of them.  And there were two in particular.  I think one about, you know, gravity.  About falling rocks and things like that.  About Isaac Newton and all that stuff that was just great.  And they were both held, I think, in Schwab Auditorium.  So had like hundreds of, you know, 400 people or something like that in there.  So he would do a lecture.  And then there would be labs that would be smaller with, taught by graduate assistants.  But, and I can still remember some of the field trips we took to look at plunging synclines and plunging anticlines.  And don't ask me for the exact explanation of what these things are.  

^M00:10:02

But it's that memory because of the way he taught things.  I think everybody enjoyed him and remembered all of his lectures better than we remember most of our other professors.  And we really didn't particularly have an interest in geology as much as just kind of getting the science requirement out of the way.  But he was an excellent professor.  I believe when he left, he may have gone on to University of Chicago or.  

>> Okay.  

>> Somewhere quite well regarded.  Years and years ago I think I kind of tried to do some research or talk to somebody about him a little bit who, because everybody who took the course would remember him.  

>> Yeah.  I mean, it must have been a great class, the fact that you still remember so much of that stuff.  

>> It was.  And just one other thing about that.  There was a bomb scare I think that took place when we were to take the final exam for the course.  And we wound up kind of going outdoors and, you know, sitting like with clipboards or something like that.  And just kind of scattered on the grass around the mall someplace to kind of get the final exam out of way.  That was relatively unusual to happen there where they would ever close, you know, off a building.  But given the times, and it did in that case.  But Dr. Latmen was not to be deterred by that.  And he allowed us to take the final anyway.  It was a course that almost, if you showed up, you were going to get an A pretty much.  

>> Yeah.  

>> There would be long waiting lines is the other.  Back when we used to register for classes in the beginning of a semester.  This was an old, you know, before the modern era.  So we would pick up what we would call IBM cards.  Sort of punch cards that, to go around to the different departments.  And if there was an opening in a class and you needed it, you would, you know, get this card.  And if they all fit on the schedule and so forth, and then you would turn them all in.  And they would somehow run them through a mainframe program or something like that to come up with your schedule.  And people used to sit and wait for openings to come up in that course.  

>> Really.  

>> In order to be able to get it.  And I think that's why, I don't think I got into it until like my senior year.  Because they would always give, for registration purposes, priority to seniors and juniors and so forth in order that you were able to get all your requirements out of the way that you needed for graduation.  You know, and didn't get stuck in a spot where you couldn't schedule something that you needed.  

>> Right, so I'm sure.  

>> A famous Penn State professor.  

>> Yeah.  That's great.  So one other thing that I was interested in.  Do you remember your particular musical tastes back then?  Or what the music was like on campus?  

>> Yeah.  I mean, it was a period where the music really changed and reflected the attitudes and events that were changing so much over those four years.  And when I first arrived, I know from, used to go to a lot of the concerts.  They were held in Rec Hall back then and.  

>> Okay.  

>> You got to see these terrific groups for about $2 or it $2.50 a ticket I think it was.  In the beginning was sort of old, you know, Motown groups and things like that.  Sort of more innocent kind of rock and roll types of things.  And that did change over time.  There's one, there's a particular song that I recall though that says kind of a lot about the era.  That was Country Joe and the Fish, about, I think it might have even been called the Vietnam Song.  I don't know if you would know that offhand.  But it was one, two, three, what are you fighting for?  Something or other.  I don't give a damn.  We're all going to Vietnam.  Nam, I guess they pronounce, to make it rhyme.  And then it was something about, you know, we're all coming home in a bag or something like that anyway that was the end of that verse.  And, you know, Woodstock occurred during those four years.  I think that was '69, not '68.  

>> Okay.  

>> And, I mean, even now, if you could kind of go back and look at all the performers there.  And that was a song I believe that was performed there.  I'm not certain.  And I didn't attend that music festival.  But that kind of is more the music that was popular more toward the end of my four years at Penn State that was much more topical kind of music.  You had, you know, Richie Havens and others there.  I don't know if these are all people you would know now.  I still, music, I think of a particular time in your life, stays with you your whole life and all.  And now with, you know, satellite radio and the car, I'll still listen to things from the 60s or 70s.  Because I still think that's the best music that was ever, you know, made.  

>> Yeah.  

>> So it was, you know, in the beginning it was just a couple years after the Beatles had first kind of broken onto the scene with the sort of "I Want to Hold Your Hand" kind of, you know, sort of happier time music and then.  

>> Right, right.  

>> Included with people, you know, like Country Joe and the Fish again.  And Janis Joplin is the other one that was, you know, particularly well-known and quite kind of a much more radical kind of performer than others earlier on.  So it all changed a lot I think during those four years.  And it was pretty interesting.  The other band I guess that we used to listen to a lot in the dorm and apartments was The Doors.  

>> Oh, okay.  

>> "Come on Baby, Light My Fire" and all this stuff.  It was all music you would, if people were so inclined, would think about playing in the background while they might be high on something.  So it was kind of this psychedelic kind of stuff.  And, you know, people, the whole era, the hippie and all that kind of came into being I think more toward the last couple years of my academic career.  Not so much in the beginning.  I was. [ Multiple Speakers ] ^M00:17:42  

>> Was that pretty.  Was that culture pretty pervasive at Penn State?  

>> Well, no, I don't think I would say pervasive at Penn State.  The one thing that's probably still true, Penn State was so big that kind of every group sort of had its place.  And compared to other universities, I think it was, it remained quite conservative.  It wasn't a Berkley or a University of Wisconsin where, you know, things were happening to a larger sort of more energized state.  It was still a place where there were a lot of engineering and agriculture, you know, majors.  It was more male than female.  The fraternity system was, remained, you know, pretty big.  And they were all kind of conservative institutions.  And, but if you wanted, if you were interested in sort of anything, you could go and, you know, find that group.  So you knew there were some people, you know, from appearance or whatever that were hippies.  Or who were into, you know, drug use or something like that.  Those were all there to be found if you wanted them.  But it wasn't a case that everybody was similar.  And I think for the most part it hadn't moved all that far left of, through all this.  I mean, certainly attitudes about things were changing.  But probably not as much as some of the things you read about in history of what went on in that era.  And what was going on in terms of, you know, SDS.  And I know Jerry Rubin came and spoke at Penn State.  And there was the one sit-in that occurred on campus where there were, I'm not sure how many, maybe 100 students or something went in protest, sit-in and occupy Old Main.  

^M00:20:05

And occupying buildings was more common in some of the other colleges I think.  But the thing that made it a little unique about Penn State is after that happened there was a group that gathered on Old Main lawn.  A group of students that were more on the conservative side.  And they wanted to go and physically remove the protesters themselves.  And they were, National Guard called out actually to protect the protesters from the larger group of more conservative students that were upset that these kids had occupied the building.  

>> Really.  

>> And that was different, I think, than maybe what was happening in some other places.  So the sort of serious protesters, well, they were serious.  They didn't, they weren't composed of a majority of campus students or anything like that.  They were smaller numbers, but they were vocal, you know.  And you learned about all these issues and protests and things like that.  But for the most part I don't know as a student it affected my daily life all that much.  You know, we knew it was happening.  We would observe it and see it.  But, you know, we were still getting up and going to class every day.  And, you know, going to a sporting event on the weekend or whatever.  And trying to have some kind of a normal social life that.  

>> Yeah.  

>> You know, you do when, you know, you're that age.  And, you know, having a date on the weekend.  And enough money left over after groceries maybe to buy a six pack or something like that.  And go to a party or something.  So it, all these issues sort of surrounded us, but it didn't sort of take over our experience all that much day to day.  And I guess I'm speaking personally.  If, you know, some of the students who were more involved in a particular cause wouldn't answer that question the same way.  

>> Yeah.  So it wasn't necessarily that the university was removed from the issues.  It's just that, you know, school kind of came to the forefront.  

>> Yeah.  I mean, the issues were too big for any place in the country to be removed from them.  I mean, so, I mean, you know, in '68 you had Martin Luther King assassinated.  Penn State had very few black students at the time.  And I think it was just in the hundreds.  It was almost the case where, if you saw a black student on campus, you would assume they might be an athlete.  Because they weren't drawing from urban areas that were, blacks tended to reside.  And, you know, I grew up in suburban Lancaster.  And I don't know if we had more than one or two black students in our whole high school.  And it, going off to a campus, it was almost entirely white.  It didn't seem unusual to me.  But there, you know, when these things, you know, surfaced and the civil rights movement, you know, was so big.  And then with Martin Luther King assassinated and riots happening in cities and so forth, you know, we understood it.  And it was natural, but it wasn't close by.  It wasn't something that I ever saw growing up or even very much of in University Park.  Again, it was a small group of black students with a cause that many people were sympathetic to.  But it wasn't a case where they were going to have, you know, riots and things like that occur.  I think their issues were rightfully so more in terms of trying to increase the number of minorities that were on campus and to get more diversity there.  Because there really was very little.  The other really big event that I think maybe identified with more was the, and this would have been in the summer then when I was home.  But the democratic convention in Chicago was held in August, I guess, of 1968.  And the protests that occurred outside of the convention center where, I guess, was Hubert Humphrey was being nominated.  And this was after now Bobby Kennedy had been assassinated also.  And he was sort of more of the hope of people to try to end the war in Vietnam.  And maybe not as hopeful that Humphrey could.  But so that was, you know, Mayor Daley there.  And a police   force that was quite violent in terms of beating up of demonstrators.  I remember sitting, you know, at home with, you know, my mother, watching this.  And you saw kids, I guess, all ages really.  But protesters, you know, being beaten with blood streaming down their faces and things like that.  And I think that was new.  You know, I just don't remember ever seeing anything quite as graphic I guess in terms of, now maybe I identified more with that than I did with the minority causes and the civil rights, you know, movement in the South.  And I know there were a lot of violent acts and things like that there as well.  But this was our whole political system.  And I think I was more impacted by the issue of Vietnam personally than I was by the civil rights issues.  They were all happening at the same time.  And really in the same years or era while I was at school.  

>> It's a pretty powerful memory.  That's one of the things that I was curious about.  You know, it seems like whenever there are, you know, major issues or events, you know, you tend to remember exactly where you were, you know, when you heard.  

>> Yeah.  

>> Things.  Do you have those experiences for any other important events of the time?  

>> Well, gee, I'd have to look back now and see which year it was that we landed on the moon.  But I think it was during the period I was in school.  I don't recall the specific year, but that was. [ Multiple Speakers ] ^M00:27:57  

>> That was '69; right?  

>> Do you know the year offhand, I'm sorry?  

>> Yeah, I thought it was '69.  

>> '69.  And I think it was around the middle of the summer also.  I'm thinking it might have been really late.  Like 2:00 in the morning or something like that on the East Coast.  But, you know, that was, it was televised.  And it was just amazing.  You know, who would ever think we would do that.  And the whole world was sort of up watching their televisions I think that night.  When I was working in the summer job I had, it was like an afternoon shift.  We'd go in at 3:30 and complete I think around midnight or, you know, if we didn't have overtime or anything to do it.  So it wasn't all that late in the evening, you know, for me.  But everybody was up watching that at the time.  Of course, the other Penn State connection everybody should be aware of with what was going on was, you know, after Bobby Kennedy was assassinated.  Our former football player Roosevelt Greer wrestled the assassin to the ground and, while others removed the pistol from his hand.  Sirhan Sirhan was the guy who assassinated him.    But people, Roosevelt Greer was one of the best football players that was ever at Penn State.  And he happened to be involved in politics.  And that was going on in the Los Angeles area I think.  So it created a little bit of a Penn State connection.  Not in the way you want to, but he was viewed as a bit of a hero after that.  

^M00:30:01

And he certainly was this, you know, big powerful man who was able to physically overtake Sirhan Sirhan.  And the other, I mean, other events I think everybody would always remember, but this was still, I was in high school, was JFK's assassination.  I was still in 10th grade taking a geometry test.  

>> Yeah.  

>> I think at the time.  But it is true that, you know, you always, you know, think back and, events like that, and remember the circumstances surrounding them.  

>> So with regards to what we've been talking about, were there any issues that you personally got involved with on campus?  Or any particular interests at the time?  

>> Well, I was, when you say personally got involved with, I don't think I was through any type of formal organization.  

>> Okay.  

>> But I had the draft hanging over my head.  And I was in the first year of the draft lottery.  And I remember it occurring, I think it was the middle of winter some time.  I can't recall December or January.  And I was sitting with some friends in one of the sorority suites actually watching this thing live on TV where, you know, they went through every birthday and picked a number.  And that was the order then that your draft board would use to call as many people as they needed to for the draft back then.  And I was right in the middle.  I was 185.  But I was from an area, again, in the suburbs where most of us went on to college and had a deferment and, you know, during your four years.  So I knew with that number they were, it was probably going to get called.  Because they would need to call more and more numbers to get the number of soldiers that they needed.  

>> All right.  

>> At the time.  And if you were from a draft district kind of like mine, they had to call more numbers to get the same number of people.  If you were from one where not as many kids went to college, those kids were available right away, and they didn't go as far into the numbers.  So it differed from location to location.  And for whatever reason, it appeared some error was made by the university in January of my last semester.  They hadn't sent in the, whatever forms were required to maintain my student deferment during my senior year with my draft board.  And I got a call in February, I think it was.  Not a phone call, a letter to report for my draft physical.  Now, I immediately appealed the.  

>> Yeah.  

>> The loss of the deferment because I knew that was a mistake.  And that would have bought me about six months more time.  And I'm saying all this, I didn't want to go to, into the service or especially go into Vietnam at the time.  And, but when I, you know, contacted the draft board then, even though my deferment was restored.  They said, well, that's okay, but go ahead and take the physical anyway.  Because we'll probably get to your number.  So they had a bus take a bunch of us or a couple of buses from state college or University Park.  They actually picked us up, they loaded the buses at some crazy like 5:00 a.m. or something like that outside of Beaver Stadium.  I don't think they wanted to bus us anywhere near the main part of the campus or.  

>> Yeah.  

>> People might have noticed them more and maybe done some sort of protest or whatever.  And they bussed us down to New Cumberland, I think it is.  Outside of Harrisburg is some sort of military thing there.  And we went through the draft physical.  And as much as, you know, you tried to influence any the outcome, I was found to be perfectly healthy and qualified to go off and serve.  So I knew all that stuff several months before I was going to graduate.  And pretty much spent the rest of my senior year trying to figure out what I was going to do so that I wouldn't get drafted.  It was, priority one for me was avoiding the draft.  And priority two was getting a job, you know, that everyone wanted, you know, to do upon graduation.  And a friend of mine who was in a similar circumstance and I spent a couple of like Friday afternoons, we would take off or blow off the last class.  And travel around Pennsylvania to sign up at National Guard units or Army Reserve units.  Now, this was military service.  It was   relatively rare that those, once you were in there, that you would get called into duty in Vietnam.  Although there were a few around the country that did with unfortunately pretty bad results I think.  And they were giving priority in these, you know, again, this is before the Internet.  We would drive to like Bellefonte and look in the yellow pages to find out where the nearest, you know, Army Reserve unit was.  And then drive over and get your name on the list.  And I remember going in there, and they put your name on the list.  But they kind of laughed and said, you know, we give priority first to 18 year olds and then 19 year olds and 20 and then 21.  And here we were now, you know, 21 trying to somehow get into the reserves.  And maybe about two or three weeks went by, and I was, I believe in economics class.  And I wish I could remember the name of the fellow that told me this.  But he was from suburban Philadelphia.  And said, oh, there's a reserve unit in Edgemont, Pennsylvania sort of out near West Chester outside of Philadelphia that had started six years ago.  And they might have a lot of people getting out now.  Because your normal, your course of, or term of duty was a six-year period.  So you might want to give them a try.  And here, again, you know, we immediately sort of hopped in the car.  And, you know, took, next day and drive down there and get on their list.  I remember doing, stopping in Chambersburg, Pennsylvania was another one we stopped at.  And about a month before I was scheduled to graduate, it would have been then in April I guess of 1970.  I got a call from this reserve unit in Edgemont.  We have an opening for you.  You know, come on down this weekend, and we'll swear you in.  And, you know, I did that.  And they were about 12 of us I think that were all getting sworn in at the same time, again, because they had these openings occur.  And there's some lieutenant there that's doing the oath that, you know, that you have to take.  Raise your right hand.  He's probably the same age  we were.  A year older probably a ROTC guy or something like that was in this thing.  And right at the end of the oath, almost as if it was part of the oath, he said, congratulations, gentlemen, you beat the draft.  

>> Wow.  

>> And, you know, we were so relieved.  

>> Yeah that's [inaudible].  

>> That we were able to do this.  Now, you know, it was six months of active duty.  And, you know, two weeks in the summer.  Summer camp they called it.  We would go up to Camp Drummond, Northern New York state and, a weekend a month.  But our unit was never, you know, called up or anything.  And it was a much better alternative than what we saw a lot of our friends go through and so forth.  And it turned out, you know, having that occur and then fortunately also getting a job with the Pennsylvania Department of Labor, that was kind of right up my alley from my course of study.  And being able to work in Philadelphia for that.  It was not in their Harrisburg office at all.  Worked out nice and convenient for me.  

^M00:40:01

And I was able to kind of transition to, you know, the next part of my life and start moving ahead my career.  And then, you know, pursuing my MBA and all that sort of thing.  But in our minds the thing that, I guess this is a very long-winded answer to your question.  You were asking me about causes.  But, you know, mentally where we, many of us were at the time were dealing with the help.  We were personally likely to be affected by the Vietnam War.  And we were certainly anti war.  And, you know, if pushed, I don't think any of us really understood Vietnam.  And watching some of the history of it that was on PBS in a series they run not too long ago, you learn how badly that was all mishandled.  And how the public was mislead by it.  But certainly a lot of our opposition to it was just opposition on a personal level.  We didn't want to get killed.  And, you know, we all knew people from high school or whatever that did.  And so it's nothing that I'm apologetic about at all.  Because I don't think there was any point in us being over there anyway.  

>> Right.  

>> As it turned out.  So it was just a very kind of compelling issue.  And I think, even before our senior year, we lived with it for quite a while.  I remember one time turning out, actually Richard Nixon I think was in state college for a funeral of one of the Eisenhowers, related to, you know, Eisenhower Auditorium so forth.  And they had him ride down College Avenue in a motorcade.  But not the kind that would be done, you know, for PR purposes.  I mean, he just, he had to go from one place to another.  And they'd take, you know, these cars and these limos anywhere they do.  But I remember being among a pretty good group of people that lined College Avenue at the time.  I couldn't tell you exactly what year this was.  I'm thinking it might have been my junior year.  I don't know if it was John Eisenhower or, the name of the, you know, relative of President Eisenhower who passed away.  But also had the Penn State connection.  And the people who were on College Avenue were, you know, yelling insults at     Nixon as he drove by, you know, rather quickly with the windows up.  Or, you know.

>> Yeah.

>> Giving him the finger.  You know, something, whatever made you feel a little bit better at the time.  But I was there.  

>> Yeah.  I'm trying to figure out which bio this is.  Were you involved in Greek life?  

>> No, I was not.  I wound up with a group of friends from the dorm my freshman year.  And some combination of us stayed together in apartments pretty much in the same location during the three years that followed.  I think I went, you know, visited two fraternities during [inaudible] weekend.  And a bunch of us came back sort of disillusioned with the whole process.  We started talking to each other and said, what's the point of this?  Let's, why don't, you know, we can, we'll enjoy it more if we just room together.  So we kind of quickly bailed out of that type of life.  

>> Right, yeah.  That makes sense.  And then so your friend group probably shared a lot of these same ideas and sentiments, you know, about the war and about things going on at that time?  

>> Well, yeah.  I mean, all sort of different individuals.  I had two of the group actually wound up getting married between their junior and senior year of college.  

>> Oh, wow.

>> And one of my roommates was kind of disengaged really from stuff at Penn State.  He was going home, you know, to see the girlfriend on weekends.  And was a real bright guy, electrical engineering major and so forth.  But he just wasn't involved in anything pretty much on campus very much.  We had one guy right in the beginning, he was probably the only one that kind of didn't stay together among our group of friends.  He was a transfer from the Naval Academy.  

>> Okay.  

>> So, and from Texas.  And was a kind of a colorful, you know, personality.  But not the best influence on the rest of us in terms of his studies.  And he sort of moved on to his own thing or maybe a little bit with our help.  So we kind of pared down.  I think my first out of the dorm experience, there were five or six of us.  And I think five of us in a three-bedroom apartment.  And then after that we went, three of us in two-bedroom apartments my junior and senior year with, began with some portion of those people kind of staying together.  So there were, you know, people change a little bit.  There were some that you remain closer to or had more in common with than others.  But we, you know, for the most part, you know, got along well.  And, you know, kind of, I mean, living with anybody, you know, outside your home for.  

>> Yeah.  

>> The first time in your life is a different experience.  And you got to adjust and kind of get used to other people so.  

>> Absolutely.  

>> Habits and so forth.  And, you know, I cooked and the other guys did the dishes.  So that was my contribution to our, you know, staying compatible.  And that was my preference.  But we had some pretty good students.  One guy was, I don't think he made it.  But he was trying to get into med school, but he went on and got an advanced degree I think in microbiology.  

>> Okay.  

>> Funny story about him.  He tried to make his own wine in our apartment the one semester.  And one of his professors I think gave him a culture of, to, for like a pinot noir or something like that to ferment the grapes.  And, you know, I think he just started with the grape juice and a couple of, you know, plastic milk jugs or whatever of this concoction that probably aged all of about three weeks before we gave its first try.  And, you know, you're pretty desperate when you don't have a lot of money and you're looking for some alcohol as a student.  And it smelled god awful, but it didn't taste as bad as it smelled.  That's about the best thing I can say about it.  It didn't stop us from.

>> Yeah.

>>  Having it.  But it was interesting that his professor gave him the, you know, the starter whatever this is.  I guess the fermentation. 

>> Yeah.  

>> Thing for the juice.    >> It's kind of, hearing you talk about this stuff.  I mean, aside from like the technological differences, you know, political differences and things going on at that time.  A lot of like the day-to-day stories or anecdotes don't necessarily sound too different from, you know, something that would happen nowadays.  

>> Yeah.  That's an interesting comment.  And, you know, I'd have to agree.  I mean, we're, people who are that age now, you know, probably aren't all that different from those of us who were 18, 19, 20, 21, 50 years ago in terms of, you know, developing things in your life.  You're right.  Technology has played major changes in how we communicate with each other and research things and so forth.  But in terms of your personal development, you know, you're still kind of growing up then.  And, you know, you're kind of forging your way a little bit through life.  You're maybe a little more, you know, serious about, you know, your social life and dating and things like that than, you know, you were in high school.  I wouldn't have never of thought of or knew anyone, you know, back in my high school days who would have been nearly ready to get married.  But, you know, wound up knowing these two guys pretty well who did.  And they were both girls from home sort of that they maintained a relationship with like     that.  But, and the other thing I didn't mention at all was, you know, we were, I was and still am just a big Penn State sports fan.  

^M00:50:03

And we had some terrific teams in several sports back then.  And it hooked me for life basically.  You know, we had the two undefeated football teams.

>> Right.

>> In '68 and '69 with, you know, Franco Harris and Jack Ham.  And these, you know, legendary players back in that era.  Dennis Onkotz.  But I'm still a fan of men's gymnastics, which was a big thing we used to do in the winter.  Where on a Saturday night would you take a date to a gymnastics meet.  

>> Okay.  

>> And the Penn State men's gymnastics was as good as their was in the country.  It was coached by, Gene Wettstone was the coach.  Had been there sort of forever.  And I think, if this is true or not, I know I've heard it.  I can't confirm it.  But that he had the best one loss percentage of any NCAA coach in any sport.  

>> Wow.  

>> Then.  Because they would mostly be undefeated seasons.  Sometimes he would have one loss.  But the highlight was that, and this was only men's gymnastics.  This was before Olga Korbut, you know, and all of Soviet and Eastern Block countries kind of brought women's gymnastics into popularity.  So it was just men's competition.  And they would pretty nearly fill up Rec Hall to watch these teams on Saturday night.  But what I was getting to, once per year they would have a visiting team from a foreign country come.  And I remember one I think from Cologne, Germany and.  

>> Okay.  

>> I think the Bulgarian national team came, I think it was my senior year.  So these were like Olympic type of athletes doing a real interesting sport.  And we took a phys ed, one of the phys ed requirements when I was a student, and we had phys ed, do you still have them?  I don't know if you have to take phys ed anymore, but.  

>> I'm honestly not sure.  

>> Okay.  We had to take four courses.  Like four semesters of physical education.  

>> Okay.  

>> And two of them I think were not actually performing an athletic event.  I mean, we had badminton and bait casting.  And, you know, some of the things sound kind of silly.  But one of the, thing I was going to get back to Gene Wettstone on was, one was called sports lecture.  Where you would have the coach come in from the Penn State team and educate students about their particular sport.  

>> Really.  

>> And even like Badminton, for example, that, you know, is, I think it's an Olympic sport in the summer.  There's a lot more to it than kind of picnic kind of a thing we're used to playing.  

>> Right.  

>> You know, with the barbecue chicken in the summer.  But trying to score performers in men's gymnastics, it's all, you know, very technical.  And you've got to be trained and skilled on that.  So Wettstone came in, and he showed us videotapes that were deliberately misleading I think just to kind of get our goat a little bit.  So he'd put a tape on of this guy doing something on the high bar or whatever.  And he'd ask everybody then, you know, after teaching you or telling about the different infractions.  And how much each deduction was to take off.  He'd ask everybody to, you know, write down their score.  And raise it up on the piece of paper sort of the way they would do it during the meet from the judges.  

>> Yeah.    >> And everybody was way off because he threw things in there that people weren't going to pick up and so forth.  And he got a kick out of it himself.  And I guess this goes back, you know, how many professors do you remember and things like that happening.  And I remember that one vividly.  And the other thing about him was, you know, if were you going to be a men's gymnastics team member there, you had to have, you had to be well-groomed, not a hair out of place.  You know, no facial hair, anything like that.  And this was a period when, you know, people were starting to look pretty shaggy and so forth.  But that wasn't Gene Wettstone's way.  So I, even now I wish, you know, the Penn State men's team was just a little bit better.  I know they're pretty good.  But they're not winning national championships now.  I think they're pretty close to the top of the big ten.  But back then they were just terrific.  And I know they had a couple of athletes that went to the Olympics.  I think there was a kid that went in 1968 to the Mexico City Olympics.  That had maybe graduated just before I got there who was the NCAA all around champion.  

>> Wow.  

>> I think his last name was Cohen.  And he was also in med school.  He was sort of like John Herschel.  Sort of one of these overachievers, you know, that was just great academically and athletically at the same time.  

>> Yeah.  

>> And unfortunately, I think it was, he was a little past him prime when he went to the Mexico City games and didn't do particularly well there.  But, I mean, just form him to go there was something to see.  

>> Yeah.  One final thing that I wanted to make sure I covered while I have you here.  I guess I'm just curious, do you feel that, you know, having all these things happen during your college experience was positive or negative?  Or did not really affect you all that much?  

>> Well, certainly affected me a lot.  I don't know if positive or negative is kind of the right way to characterize it.  I think it was definitely interesting.  

>> Yeah.  

>> And, you know, and quite formative in terms of, you know, development as a person.  You had to deal with a lot of things.  And, you know, think about them.  And, you know, again, as I was talking about the potential impact of the draft and so forth.  You know, would have I preferred it to still be kind of, you know, Ozzie and Harriet, you know, kind of a simpler life back then, hard to say, you know.  Looking back, I mean, it was a decent amount of stress and pressure back then.  I guess having gone through it you're a better person as a result of it.  But it's not something that you do by choice.  You just, I mean, life isn't like that; right?  You kind of deal with whatever gets thrown your way.  And that's sort of how I feel about it.  Rather than describe it in a positive or negative sense.  That was a lost activity and change.  It's a real interesting question, Trent.  I'm not sure I can answer it all that well really.  

>> No, no.  I think you [inaudible].  

>> To think about it.  You just, you do whatever you need to do any time in your life.  And, you know, kind of coming, you know, coming from a quiet suburban, you know, kind of lifestyle without things going on.  And then thinking of, you know, where you were four years later, five years later.  It all worked out fine.  Doesn't necessarily work out there for, you know, there were people that got in all kinds of trouble, you know, that somehow didn't navigate through or handle it well.  Or got mixed up in drugs or something that, or flunked out, you know.  There were different experiences by everybody really.  So it's very hard to generalize in terms of answering your question.    >> So as we get to the end of our time here, is there anything that you wish we would have covered?  Or any suggestions that you'd like to offer to current Penn State students?  

>> Suggestions in terms of their own current experience, you mean?  

>> Right, yeah. ^M00:59:39 ^M00:59:44  

>> I think. ^M00:59:45 ^M00:59:50  To, you know, I don't know that I need to encourage them to do it.  Because the amount of information that's sort of out there now is much more than what we had.  

^M01:00:03

And although, you know, the, so now you hear about fake news and things like, you know, sort of how do you stay informed and?  

>> Right.  

>> And know what's important?  And what's real?  And students now probably have to deal with that.  Everybody does in a little different way than we did back then.  So whether students are different enough or able to deal with it, I think it seems to me a little easier time now to be a student maybe than it was back then.  I mean, just.  

>> Okay.  

>> Kind of know who you are and study.  You know, I mean, you're there to get an education.  And you do it both in the classroom and through your other experiences.  And I'm, you know, now when I go back and I'm involved in, you know, some volunteer things and so forth.  I'm amazed at just how the good the students are and how much they accomplish.  I don't know that we were all that smart frankly as many of the students are there today.  And maybe we didn't take advantage of all the options that we could have.  Or we just didn't have as many options.  I know, you know, now, for example, going abroad to study is something I think is just terrific.  That wasn't within the realm of possibility for us back then.  But that's another case where you're, you know, you're learning just life skills, you know, to be able to live and survive in another country.  And to meet entirely different, you know, people.  And being in a different culture and so forth.  So you have opportunities now I think as students that we    probably didn't have then.  And any time I get to meet some of the students that seem to just be involved in more things than we seem to have done, I think is probably to their benefit.  

>> Well, that was great.  Thank you so much for your time.  

>> You're welcome, Trent.  Thank you.  I enjoyed, it was interesting to, you never know where these are going to go.  And, you know, there's one other just little something came to mind.  And I had made some notes on it.  But I might add something, if I can take a minute just to describe it.  Because it might be interesting for people to hear about. [ Multiple Speakers ] ^M01:03:05  

>> Absolutely.  

>> I mentioned going on, you know, to an apartment with these different roommates.  And one of the fellas, the engineer actually, his father I recall was a, worked for AAA or somebody that was involved in the travel business.  But we had a poster that we hung on the wall back then that was, it said "Visit Vietnam" on it.  And it was actually a travel poster that had been done for tourism in Vietnam before the Vietnam War.  

>> Oh, wow.  

>> And then thinking, you know, and it had palm trees and beautiful beaches and things like this on it.  And kind of thinking of, you know, what was on our mind and having this sort of above the little dining room table we had there in the apartment.  I will sort of always remember, and it was some incident that was probably alcohol infused.  I don't recall all the details of it at the time.  But one of us wound up throwing some spaghetti on it or something like that, you know, one night in a fit of protest over all this.  But ever think that that was a consideration to, you know, go to Vietnam and, you know, spend some time at the beach the way you might, you know, go down to Barbados or someplace.  

>> Right, yeah.  

>> Anyway, again, thank you, Trent.  I enjoyed, they were good questions.  And I hope I was able to contribute something that someone else might find interesting.  I think the whole idea of having this, of course, living free is something that's now considered history.    >> Right.  

>> As interesting from my standpoint.  So I appreciate your efforts in arranging this and leading me well along through the interview.  

>> You know, this was a really great interview.  Thank you again.  

>> Okay, take care.  

>> Thanks.  Bye.  ^E01:05:06

Interviewed by Nick Camusi

>> All right.  Hi everyone.  My name is Nick Camusi.  I am sophomore at Penn State studying English and History.  I am currently one of the students in the World of 1968 course here at Penn State.  And I have with me today Ms. MaryLouise Uhlig, please say hi. >> Hi. >> So, MaryLouise, thank you so much for speaking with me tonight.  I really appreciate it.  Why don't you tell us a little bit about yourself before we get started? >> OK.  My name is MaryLouise Cernugel which was my maiden name when I was at Penn State, C-E-R-N-U-G-E-L, and married name is Uhlig, U-H-L-I-G.  And I married a Penn Stater who I met obviously at Penn State.  I went to Penn State from 1964 to 1967.  I finished a four-year undergraduate program in Speech and Political Science in the College of Liberal Arts.  And then in those days, we were on a term systems, 10 weeks, 10 weeks, 10 weeks, three terms.  You cannot take more than 13 credits per term without permission of the Dean.  I did-- I finished fours year of college in three years.  I graduated in September of '67 and I got married in September of '67, and came back to Penn State in September of '67 as a graduate assistant teaching then what was called Speech 200.  They still teach it.  It's the basic speech course that everybody needs to take at Penn State in order to graduate.  After leaving Penn State, I came to Washington DC with my husband and we-- what we thought was going to be temporary government job, but it turns out 47 years later we were-- I was still on Washington DC and still working for the government.  I held a variety of positions.  And I also went to Central Michigan in Harvard and got advance degrees after I left Penn State, all paid for by the government I might add.  I got to travel to most of the 50 states and many foreign countries, again, all part of my work.  I worked as CE at Department of Labor, I worked at the Navy Department, I worked at the dept-- I help create the Defense Mapping Agency, and then I worked throughout EPA.  I worked in a variety of fields, everything from Native American environmental policy, to equal employment opportunity, to budget, to contracts, to grant, through HR, to state relations, so just a variety of things.  And once in the senior executive service which is the top rank for a career employee.  The only thing higher than what I was would be a position that was confirmed by the Senate.  So that sort of in a nutshell.  At the same time, I was very active in a lot of professional organizations like Executive Women in Government, the Senior Executive Association.  So, my activities from Penn State and high schools days carried over into my private life.  And I have one daughter.  And we're avid Penn State fans.  My uncle coached with rectangle way back when and what they called the big three, three games when the state of Pennsylvania played everybody from every other state, so became big, big football fan.  And still has season tickets to this day.  So I guess that's sort of me in a nutshell.  I've been very active at the university.  I was on alumni council.  I was on the Liberal Arts Council, the Spark Council.  I did various things including women initiative type things with the president of Penn State, one of the presidents of the Penn State.  So, that's sort of me in a nutshell. >> OK.  Great.  Thank you so much.  I'm honestly astounded by how much you've accomplished.  I'm very excited to getting a little bit into your Penn State career because obviously--  >> Sure. >> -- a very successful professional career.  So, you mentioned that you've studies Speech and Political Science while you're at Penn State.  Was there--  >> Right. >> -- particular course or particular professor that made a lasting impact on your studies? >> Oh absolutely.  One was called the "The Silver Fox."  His name is Dr. Carroll Arnold, A-R-N-O-L-D.  And Dr. Arnold was sort of the editor of the Quarterly Journal of Speech which was like big bible dealing with rhetoric in public address.  And now, of course, speech or rhetoric is all in the College of Communications.  So, they try and claim me but originally I was at the College of Liberal Arts.  So, I actually split my loyalty between both colleges nowadays and volunteer for both and give money to both.  But-- So Dr. Carroll Arnold, I'd say, had a tremendous impact on me as well as Dr. Jerry Phillips.  He was absolutely great.  He did-- Carroll just a more academic look at speech in rhetoric.  You know, we study great dictators and how they gave speeches in controlled crowds and all of that.  Jerry Phillips, on the other hand, was very much into group dynamics and in a relationships with people.  And, you know, he was just a fun guy.  He would always have food on his shirt that he spilled somehow a long with his Phi Beta Kappa tea and he would have us out, you know, to his house for a graduate meeting, and he would just say, "Go help yourself in the refrigerator since I know you graduate students don't have money and you don't eat."  He was very kind of informal and Arnold was the opposite.  Arnold was very formal.  And as a matter of fact, at one point, he was a ghost writer for Syngman Rhee when he was president of Korea.  And I had an opportunity to go to Korea as an exchange student which I turn down, but-- so anyway, I say those two were the ones who, you know, I remember to this day and that's why it had an impact on my whole thinking period. >> So, it sounds like you were very well-- you were very active on campus both academically and extracurricularly.  Where would you obtain your news about what was going on beyond campus?  How would you find out--  >> You know what's--  >> -- current events? >> Yeah.  I was just going to say if you can-- if you didn't go and buy a newspaper or you didn't, you know, seek out something on the radio or television, you would not know that a war was going on.  I mean, Penn State, you know, in the late 60s, Vietnam was at a tight-- there was a draft.  You know, my husband and all the guys were subject to draft.  My husband volunteered.  He took a test.  He wanted to go into the navy and he was going to do a 20-year career in the navy and, you know, end up getting out at 40 and then, you know, doing something different, but because everybody else in his hometown area were getting deferred because they were farmers or religious reasons, even though he was going to the process of the navy testing, we went to Philadelphia for physical, we took a written exam, all kinds of stuff while he was finishing his senior year at Penn State.  He was told that he and his draft notice was in the mail.  There was nothing the navy could do to stop it because they were so short of getting people to meet their quota from his part of Pennsylvania.  So, at this point, we were in DC and we were married and we were just waiting, you know, for the navy stuff to happen.  And so he called me one day and said, "Are you sitting down?"  And I said, "Yes."  He said, "Well, I'm going to go across the hall and I'm enlisting in the Marine Corps."  And I said, "Oh OK."  He said, "I refused to be drafted.  I'm not trying to get out of it, but I am not going to be drafted."  The navy can't do anything to speed it up.  So my husband enlisted in the Marine Corps and he went in to Marine.  Our best man was drafted in the army.  He's a Penn Stater.  And he was given five minute to either sign up for his third year or be guaranteed Vietnam.  So he signed up for a third year but he got Vietnam anyway, but at least, Tony spent the entire time in Vietnam in an air-conditioned building doing computer work.  But-- So even though, as I'm telling you, people were being drafted, people are voluntary, all this is going on.  It was very quiet at Penn State. ^M00:10:01 You know, it was not-- you had to seek out the information sort of about the war and about everything going on.  Happy Valley was very sort of in a sense isolated and it was sort of happy valley. >> OK.  That is sort of the impression that I still get on campus.  Obviously, it's a lot easier to stay connected now with the internet, with television--  >> Right. >> -- things that-- but--  >> Yeah, the biggest protest in the '60s, because again, I started in the summer of '64, and as I said, I finished September '67 undergraduate and then I started, you know, graduate school.  The biggest protest that I remember on Old Main's lawn was the Town Independent Men, they were called TIM.  The Town Independent Men threw a big rally in front of Old Main so that women could visit their apartments downtown, because prior to that, you couldn't do that, and that was the biggest rally.  So, it kind of, you know, shows you.  On the other hand, there was, you know, some activity going on.  We did have Martin Luther King came and spoke at the university during those years.  So, you know, there was awareness about, you know, civil rights, but again, not a major thing.  There was awareness obviously that a war is going on because your classmates are being drafted and-- or enlisting or whatever, but there was no way that communication, you know, that operates, you know today.  Very, very different.  And again, as you know, Penn State, it's sort of like in the middle of nowhere.  So if you really want to be isolated up here-- or up at Penn State rather, it's very easy to be isolated. >> I agree.  I agree in both [inaudible]. >> On the right hand, you know, especially undergraduate, it's not necessarily a bad thing because it is-- I'm not saying ignore civil rights, ignore wars, but I'm saying it's not necessarily a bad thing, let's assume, you know, the countries that [inaudible], you know, nothing really great going on.  It's not bad to be at a place like Penn State because it gives you a chance to concentrate on, you know, finding out who you really are, learning how to relate to all kinds of different people on campus, testing out all sorts of different subject areas to see what you might be interested in, whereas, if you go-- my feeling is always this.  If you go to a school that's in the middle of a city, like George Washington University in DC, I think it's very difficult to kind of have some of those same experiences when you have a million destructions all around you.  So, on the right hand, Penn State, you know, could be considered, you know, stifling if you want to look at it.  On the other hand, I think it can be-- being as really a wonderful environment to create this opportunity for you as a young person when you're talking 17, 18 years old to kind of find out, you know, who you are and what your interests are. >> I agree.  I absolutely agree.  So, I do like this side by side of then and now Penn State, because it does sound like maybe not a whole lot is changed since you went here.  But what would be maybe one suggestion that you would offer to Penn State students today, people my age? >> I would just say take advantage of-- first of all, Penn State is so huge.  And I worry about-- I worry about some of the students who, you know, maybe still first in their family to go to college and Penn State has a lot of those, since I looked at the statistics, they've always been that way where, you know, a lot of students who've come here are the first in their family to go to college.  So, they don't necessarily have a lot of help back home about how to, you know, navigate a system.  A lot of people at Penn State can get lost because of the numbers I think.  It's, you know, sheer numbers, big classes, all of that.  So, I guess my advice is, you know, reach out while you're at the university and realize what's the worst thing that somebody can say to you if you ask for something is no, and you know, are you that fragile, you can handle or no.  I'm saying, but, you do have, you know, all sorts of testing that's open for free about, you know, what kind of occupations you might be good at.  There's all sorts of counseling.  There's, you know, a whole variety of things that, you know, try and take a variety of subjects.  I always say and I did a lot of hiring, and I came to Penn State and recruited a lot of times.  I would rather hire somebody who's getting B's and C's than somebody who's getting straight A's, but seeing that that person was also active in things.  You know, maybe they participated in [inaudible], maybe they were, I don't know what, a young Republican, a young Democrat, whatever.  They were doing some things other than just hitting the books and getting, you know, straight A's because in real life it's-- you don't go to your doctor or you don't go to whoever and say, what grades did you get in med school?  No you don't.  They have a certificate.  They'd say they're a doctor and you go to them because you like their personality and you feel comfortable with them.  And so, all those sort of social skills are skills that you can also, you know, hone and develop at Penn State.  You can learn how to network while you're at Penn State.  And Penn State is such a great school.  You know, you have your dorm, eventually a lot of people I know live in apartments, but you start out generally in a dorm, you know people in your dorm, you know people in your major, you know people in your college.  The advantage of a huge university like Penn State is that, you know, if you don't like certain people in these majors or the dorm or you're bored with them, you don't have to leave school and move.  You just walk across the street and there's another whole group of people where there's another whole college and you can switch majors.  You can try different subject areas.  So, I would just say to be aware of the fact that employers are not just looking for straight A's.  And oh, and the other big thing is, is to take advantage of every opportunity there is for any kind of internship, paid or unpaid, because that's the key.  I always say the only difference between Harvard, my Harvard education and Penn State is the fact that at Harvard they network to death.  And you graduate one day and the next day they're calling you an alumni and they're networking with you.  And Penn State has more alumni out there than Harvard, and we have people everywhere, head of the National Geographic Society, head of federal agencies, you know, head of companies, US Gypsum, anything you're interested I guarantee you there's a Penn State at the top.  And Penn Staters like helping Penn Staters.  They may not be able to offer you a job but they can certainly share with you information about their company or agency, how best to go out seeking a job.  And so, that's the other thing I'd say.  I would say I would go volunteer at all means and we're not talking, you know, hours and hours and hours.  You know, maybe two, three hours a week and say, I like to volunteer, is there anything I can do to help when alumni come back to campus to visit?  What a great way to meet alumni all over the place, you know, all over the United States in different occupation, and it gives you exposure.  You find out, you know, what do speech majors do?  Well, it's a riot what everybody is doing regardless of what they majored in.  When I came back from my reunion, all the people that were majoring in computers, guess what?  Weren't working in computers.  They were working in something else.  All the computer people, you know, were doing something different.  And I think that's the other advantage that you have by being an English major, a History major.  You know a lot of times people say, well, you know, what kind of job are you going to get?  Well, yeah, it's not like an engineer where you're an electrical engineer, you apply for electrical engineering job.  It's not that obvious.  But let me tell you, a liberal arts education in the end is one of the most valuable things you can have, because if you're an English major, one, you know the language.  You can write.  Millions of occupations need people who can write, people who can speak, people who have a sense of history, and they can train you in the other stuff that they need.  So, yes, it's harder for liberal arts people to immediately connect with that first job, that's why networking and internships are important.  But in the long run you're going to find out that people who are really running the show, guess what, they're liberal arts graduates, because they're flexible. >> Yes, they're-- it's definitely a very diverse and almost like individualistic education.  It's--  >> Right, right, exactly. >> On training you how to think, how to speak, how to write and read.  All things you-- >> Right. >> -- do just learning how to do them more effectively. ^M00:20:03 >> Exactly.  Exactly.  And can be applied to any kind of job you have.  And those are real skills.  I mean, again, when I'm issuing some recruiting, I will tell you now people would say, we won't touch University of Maryland graduate because they don't know how to write.  Whatever was going on years ago with that school people were coming out of there and they couldn't a coherent sentence and yet they were getting undergraduate degrees.  You know, and that's the other thing like about Penn State.  You look at our athletes and compare them to a lot of other schools where they get up and they go, ah, ah.  You know, you count how many ahs they say in a one, you know, minute interview.  That's not Penn State.  Even "our jocks" can be articulate.  And so Penn State, that's the other thing.  You know, when you come out of Penn State, you have a huge network but you also have an excellent reputation.  People really like Penn Staters.  They think they're hard workers.  They think they get a good education while they're here.  And so, you know, it's very special to be a Penn Stater. >> All right.  I agree.  I completely agree.  So, switching gears a little bit here.  You did briefly touch on a couple instances of this.  But I would love to ask this question anyway.  So as a speech major and a political science major at Penn State, I must-- had a great deal of current events and different topics in the news to discussing your classes.  Not to mention you had some amazing visitors to campus during this time period, like Martin Luther King Jr.  So what were some of the most common speeches or some of the most moving events that you witnessed during your time at Penn State, both in the news and also here on campus? >> Well, I mean, I think it would be kind of hard to top Martin Luther King.  I mean, but they didn't bring, you know, alumni back and distinguished alumni.  And one was Barbara Hackman Franklin.  And Barbara Franklin was a liberal arts graduate.  The Smeal College of Business always strives to [inaudible] her.  Eventually she did get an MBA from the University of Pennsylvania and she went to Harvard too as I did and eventually she became secretary of commerce.  So, you know, Barbara was just a regular young lady from Lancaster, Pennsylvania and grew up on a farm and came to Penn State.  And, you know, again one thing, you know, sort of led to another, led to another, led to another.  So, you know, I think again it wasn't any specific person although Barbara did stick out in my mind because I actually got to know her when I moved to Washington.  And she also was a Penn State trustee eventually.  But it's just that they had, you know, a variety of people.  They would bring back alumni and even in fields not that-- were not our major.  Like I will never forget Dr. Lachman [assumed spelling], he taught geology.  I mean he made geology-- and he's sort of like Neil deGrasse Tyson who talks about black holes and all.  I mean he was of that kind of caliber but on geology that we had professors and their wives sit on the steps in Sparks, the big auditorium in Sparks.  I mean we would violate fire [inaudible] all the time.  People would come just to hear this lecture.  He was that wonderful.  You know, that's good.  And there were just a lot of outstanding professors and, you know, again we had big classes but when you got to your major, a lot of the classes, you know, were small.  I mean, you know, I would have 15, you know, 12 people in a class, which was a higher number of class in my major, what would have been like a senior year.  And my husband, the same thing.  He was international trade and logistics then.  He had some courses where he had five people in a class.  So you really get to know your professor and, you know, you get to know people really well.  So-- ^M00:24:41 ^M00:24:44 -- I guess that's it. >> So-- ^M00:24:48 ^M00:24:51 -- were you on campus when Martin Luther King came to speak.  I only ask because-- >> He-- >> -- [inaudible] about that. >> Yeah.  He was actually speaking at Rec Hall.  And on campus I was actually in McElwain, that was my dorm. >> Oh, wow. >> Yeah.  Yeah.  And it's very funny.  I mentor a bunch of students and one of my students is-- was right down the hall from the room that I was in got to help us 50 years ago and, you know, but-- So, you know, that's the one that's still there.  Hopefully-- I've not been in the inside but hopefully there's [inaudible] over all those years.  But yeah, you know, it was-- and we never had a day canceled for snow.  I mean we just hike through all that snow.  But there were not a lot of the bigger buildings obviously that are on campus now.  So for big events they use Schwab Auditorium and they used-- as a matter of fact, when you registered for classes, unlike that you do now, you just go online and register.  In our day, that was the worst part of coming to Penn State, the worst part of a term was registering for your classes and you had to do it in-person on the floor of the Rec Hall and you got computer cards and you had to go to tables and you had to cry and beg, I need this course, I need this course to graduate.  And then when you got all the right computer cards then you handed them in at the end and then you got, you know, your program that said this is what you were going to take for the term.  I mean it was hell.  It was absolute hell.  And if you talk to anybody who went to school way back then, they will tell you that was the worst course.  Not the course, not the test, not the anything but it was trying to get through registration, which nowadays of course sound so stupid but it was really traumatic in those days. >> Sure.  So you lived in McElwain you said? >> Right. >> Right.  So I suppose all the dorms back-- all the buildings back then were single sex, so you lived in a building. >> Yes.  Absolutely.  Absolutely.  I worked what was my senior year but was really should have been my junior year, I worked for the dean of women.  We actually had a dean of women.  And we had on the weekend, Friday and Saturday, we had-- you could be out to like 1 o'clock.  And-- But you had to always sign out and sign in.  You know, so that they knew where you were.  Guys were not allowed above the level where we had like mailboxes and sort of lounges and TVs.  And then downstairs was the dining room.  So we ate with one of the Pollock dorms which was guys.  You know, so we would-- we would eat.  That's also a great way to meet Penn State people because you'd show up with two of your girlfriends and stay at the table for six.  They'd say how many?  You'd say three.  They would match you up with three guys. >> Oh, wow. >> You show up the next day, if there's just two of you, they'd match you up with four people.  So you were constantly meeting people as you were eating meals, which was also great.  I mean because again, even if you were a shy person, it was a way that you were still being socialized and meeting more people and getting to know more people.  And after a while, you know, you wouldn't-- you know, say, hey, I'm going to eat dinner at 5:30, and then they would meet at 5:30 and you would have, you know, your group that you could eat with.  So, yeah, it was a really interesting setup.  But the very funny thing is I was working to the dean of women staff and twice a year to raise money for scholarships.  You could keep your girl out to 2 in the morning.  But in order to do that you had to pay for that extra hour.  And I think it was just-- >> A penny a minute. >> A penny a minute, my husband is saying.  He remembered.  And so my future husband and I are sitting there along with another couple and we're right by the front door.  And so people come in and, you know, some of them-- I mean drunk out of their mind, but these kids never drink at home.  So there at Penn State they're drinking.  And they like pour themselves on to an elevator.  And so this guy and this girl came and we said, that will be 60 cents.  And the guy-- it was embarrassing, we felt so bad for her.  He said, you should pay us for taking her out.  You know, she wasn't worth 60 cents.  Oh, it was horrible.  But that was, you know, that was back in the day and that was a big deal to have to 2 o'clock that went on, you know, all year.  September to June, there were just these to 2 o'clock and you had to pay 60 cents to stay out for those hour.  So, I mean when you look at that antiquated and then later they would let uncertain days like a weekend, special weekend, that people could come up to the room but you had to have your door open and your feet on the floor. ^M00:30:05 And they would have people walking and checking.  I mean, you know, and so now you look at that and you just say, what?  What?  And even then it was the '60s.  So, again, you can see that Penn State was conservative even in the '60s.  So it was-- It's funny to talk about those things now because it does-- just doesn't seem real. >> Yes.  Yes, certainly more, more restrictive than it is now. >> Oh, absolutely.  Sure.  Sure. >> So you mentioned earlier that sometimes the female students wouldn't be allowed out past a certain time or allowed to go to the men's apartments. >> Men's apartments, right. >> Right.  So how was your experience as a woman at Penn State during the '60s?  Obviously this was a very tumultuous time socially in the United States and it was a time of great change in this-- the rights and the status of women in the United States.  So how did you see that reflected on Penn State's campus?  Did you see the treatment of the female students changing at all? >> You know, I really can say that I really did not sense any sort of discrimination at all.  I mean, you know, I had friends that were majoring in, you know, everything back then including, you know, women majoring in premed and women majoring in agronomy and, you know, things that you wouldn't necessarily always think of as a woman, you know, some of those majors.  And in terms of, you know, professors treating us well in terms of, you know, grades, people who ended up being, you know, marshal to graduation, et cetera, et cetera, I-- you know, I can say that I really didn't see any discrimination, you know, against women.  I can tell you, there were very few minorities at Penn State.  You know, there was a black sorority in my dorm, in McElwain.  And there was, you know, black fraternities and black sororities during those days, but again not really any big protest.  And we had obviously, you know, black friends, [inaudible] to this day, one who was a trustee at Penn State, Barry Robinson, who's from DC.  Barry and my husband always used to serve on boards together and they would joke and say they were brothers and people didn't know how to react to that.  But they both have the name Barry and one was white, one was black.  And people would kind of look and then they would just laugh about it.  But-- so, you know, again, it was just such a-- it was a great opportunity like we had all sorts of friends.  So like on Friday night, Sid Farkenstein [assumed spelling] and Myra Jacobson would take us all, you know, we would-- rather, I'm sorry, we would take them to the Newman Club, which was a Catholic organization at Penn State, still here I guess, the fraternities that-- and everybody would go for pizza.  Because again, in those days people didn't have a lot of money and free food, are you kidding?  So that's what people did Friday night.  Saturday, Sid would take us down to [inaudible] and we all go have bagels and lox and stuff at the Jewish, at [inaudible].  Sunday I'd go to the Lutheran thing with my husband which they have the best lectures anywhere in town.  They had fabulous sermons.  And so, you know, people, you know, I think it was an age where, again, people were just trying to expose themselves to everything, you know, to religion, to, you know, new waves of thought to other cultures.  We have international students.  And people were very open to that kind of, you know, everybody was trying to learn about everything.  So it was a great environment. >> So, you also mentioned that there weren't a lot of protest going on at Penn State. >> No.  No.  Were there any at all during your time at Penn State or-- >> I mean not any-- not any major, I mean, seriously this-- the-- as I said, the one that sticks out in my mind was crazy, was about women visiting men's apartment and the other big protest was that for a football game when they took a VW and they floated it.  It-- we beat Ohio State and they put this VW in the pond in what was then the president's house.  It's right on campus. >> Yes.  Yes. >> It's now the Alumni Center.  And, you know, trees were all draped in toilet paper.  I mean, that was-- were the two biggest protests that I remember in the three years that I was there.  I mean, it's-- I know it sounds crazy because if you were somewhere else in the country.  But again, mainly in the city, you know, if you were going to school in Iowa, you know, Iowa State or Ohio State or whatever, you know, they-- I don't-- I have a feeling they did not have a lot of protest back then-- those-- on those, those years either.  You would think but I think it's just-- a lot of it has to do with the location. >> Sure.  Yes.  It's a very, it's a very isolated town. >> Right.  Right.  Right. >> It [inaudible] atmosphere, it really changes how people sort of perceive the world around them and-- >> Right.  Right. >> It's still like that today.  And those-- that doesn't sound crazy at all.  Those sound like things that can see students who would protest about.  Whether that be then or not.  So another question, this is again switching gears a little bit but something that I would love to hear a little bit about is your sense of the music scene during this time period.  I-- My parents were both born in the '60s, so I have been raised with a lot of '60s, '70s music and I'm a big fan.  So were there any particular artists that you are a big fan of?  Any great concerts that you got to go to during your time at Penn State, something like that? >> I was-- Yeah, I was going to say good for you.  You were lucky that you have had-- you were raised.  Our daughter was the same way.  She got all the '60 bands and the Supremes and, you know, you name it, she had it all.  And of course, the king, the king, Elvis Presley, please, must pay homage.  And, you know, years later I actually got to see him live in Washington, DC which was absolutely phenomenal.  He lived up to all the [inaudible] in person.  But, you know, the Doobie Brothers.  You know, but that was the other thing.  We didn't have big name bands and stuff at Penn State.  But people, you know, all had favorite radio station.  What was it, Froggie something rather. >> Yes.  Yeah. >> Whatever.  Whatever.  But anyway, so-- I mean people, you know, people had their cassettes.  And they made also special 8-track stuff.  People have their own, you know, stuff that they did in-- We had a lot of students, you know, from Philadelphia and New York City and whatever in terms of students.  And of course, you know, they brought all their favorite music and we used to have big dances at the HUB at the Hetzel Union Building.  And, you know, people would go and dance on Friday and Saturday night.  You know, Penn State always have a lot of fraternities and sororities but you never ever felt like you had to be in a fraternity or sorority to have a social life, because there was always stuff going on.  And, of course, in our day, State College was dry.  So even when people were legal and could drink you would on Friday night there would be backup ferry going to what? >> Bellefonte. >> Bellefonte.  There would be actually a traffic jam of cars going to Bellefonte to buy booze and liquor store to bring it back to State College, because there wasn't one in State College. >> Oh wow. >> Yes.  Yes.  And those were the days.  But-- so those were the days.  But I will tell you again, very different, we had a lot of friends.  My husband did not go Greek and I did.  And I rushed sorority so that I knew what it was all about.  But I was in a social sorority that was a service sorority but I didn't do strictly the social stuff.  But, you know, we had friends and so we would go to the ag fraternity and, you know, some of the others.  But, you know, and they would play drinking games and stuff.  But I happen to be a nondrinker.  And there was never pressure, you know.  I would play all these drinking games but they would give me 7 Up and I'd play with 7 Up.  I mean, so, you know, it was a really kind of different time. ^M00:40:00 I think people were, you know, everybody was into people kind of doing their own thing and there was not pressure that you had to be one way.  In other words, it wasn't that everybody had to drink or that everybody had to do this.  It wasn't like that when we were here in the '60s.  And then there were, you know, obviously it's like Sigma Nu was the animal house at Penn State when we were here.  They would-- they would have the toga parties that were very infamous and, you know, wholegrain alcohol and all that and lots of issues, lots of problems all the time with Sigma Nu.  And anybody that was-- had their head on right would never go to a Sigma Nu party, particularly not a girl.  But, you know, it was-- as I say, it was a, you know, a very different-- a different time back then.  I think it was all about individualism and sort of, you know, finding yourself then. >> So what kind of music would they be playing at maybe a Sigma Nu party? >> Everything and anything.  Yeah, anything that was popular like Barry said.  I mean they did all sorts of stuff.  They did reggae music.  They did, you know, hard rock. >> Motown. >> Motown, yeah, all of it, all of it. >> No country? >> No country, yeah.  There was no country music.  I agree.  Yeah.  No country music.  No jazz really either although I love jazz but there wasn't really jazz. >> It's a shame that jazz and country music always get a bad rep.  I'm a fan-- >> Yeah.  Yes.  Yeah, it's our favorite.  I mean we go to a lot of jazz things now and we obviously-- and we also love classical stuff but, you know, but back then there wasn't a lot of it.  I mean we've come back to Penn State to hear YoYo Ma play up here.  I mean that's the other thing.  If you take advantage of some of the stuff that's on campus, YoYo Ma when he played up here, he only played one other plays with Emanuel Ax and that was Carnegie Hall in New York for one night.  So I'm saying you could see it at Penn State or you could see it there.  I mean the people that they're bringing on campus are just amazing whether they're artists or they're lecturers or they're whatever.  It's phenomenal, really is. >> Yeah, I agree.  Honest-- I've actually had the opportunity to see some pretty incredible people here as well.  Last week, we had two former gold medalists for the United States track team. >> Oh great. >> As well as civil rights activist and anti-war activist, which was great.  I got to shake hands with all of them, ask them a question during their presentation.  It was a tremendous experience. >> Great, great. >> Yeah.  So another interesting dynamic about Penn State is the fact that it is a college town.  I spend a lot of time talking about this in some of my classes because it's interesting to see what happens when the college culture meets the locals who are everyday citizens, raising families, who sort of are living amongst the woo people as you might call them.  So how did you see that dynamic playing out during your time at Penn State?  Was there a lot of conflict maybe between the students and the residents of State College?  Was there not-- >> No, I think there was-- no, I think was very little interaction, really, very little interaction between the town and the university.  I mean back in the '60s sort of the-- most of the activities for the students, first of all, most of them lived on campus not in apartments.  I know it was the percentages now but I would think it's probably 50/50 at least.  But then it wasn't.  It was, you know, most people-- including married graduate students, most people were on campus.  Most activities, again, that people were doing were on campus.  And so-- And also, you know, back then except for going to movies downtown, I mean, I really don't think that there was a, you know, we had [inaudible] Pizza back then.  We had the Tavern.  We had the Corner Room.  I'm not kidding you.  And that was about it.  I mean there was not a lot going on.  You know, we didn't have the chain restaurants.  We didn't have the chain stores that you now have all over the place.  So, you know, the town was even, how can I put it, the town was even more sort of isolated.  I will say this though as I kept returning to campus in various roles on councils and so on.  But I often said I could live in State College.  I love State College.  And I love the town.  I love the university but I could never live in State College if I worked at the university.  I mean, when you really think about it, some of these people and a lot of them do work at the university.  They're on the clock 24/7.  You know, they're never off.  And, you know, it doesn't matter, you know, if they're shopping on Saturday for food, if they're going to church on Sunday or whatever, it's with other Penn Stater.  You know, it's either with their bosses or it's with somebody who has potential control over their careers.  It is such a company town, you know, like Hershey, Pennsylvania.  I'm trying to think of another town that it would be like.  So, you know, I always compared the difference between, you know, Washington is really not a big town but I go to work in Washington.  I work as the secretary, you know, of navy.  I do my stuff.  But if I don't want to see any of those people on a weekend, I don't need to see them.  You know, I don't need to depend on them for a social life or even my career for that matter, there's other things.  But here, you know, the town is small, the university is such a major player.  And if you're working for the university, I really think these people are on the clock 24/7.  And I think it's tough.  I think it's very tough.  But I do think we had a mayor here in the State College a couple of years ago named Bill Welch and he was a liberal arts grad.  And he was head of the American Stamp Society or whatever.  But anyway, Bill did a lot to foster better relations between town and gown as they call it, you know, when he did activities and things.  And they were also, you know, now setting up more internships so students at Penn State could work, you know, for the newspaper, the police departments.  You know, years ago, there weren't any of those kinds of thing. >> Sure. >> So now, I think there is more of a relationship going back and forth than there ever was, you know, in my day in the '60s. >> All right.  That-- Those are all of the questions I have prepared.  If there are any other stories or things you would want to touch on about your time at Penn State please-- >> No, it's just that, you know, I look-- I look back fondly and-- oh yeah, I should mention one.  My husband says, the stacks, you're going to laugh about this. >> Oh, I'm ready.  I'm ready. >> Back in the day-- Yeah, back in the day, one of the, again, people who cared about grades and a lot of people did.  Again, not worrying about straight A's but they cared about grade.  We-- the date you would have is you would go to Pattee Library and it was mainly just Pattee in those days, and you would go into the stacks.  And you know, you would study for hours and hours and hours.  And a couple of times during the year when you were getting ready for finals, you could get a permission to get locked in the stacks overnight. >> Oh, wow. >> And that was a big deal, you know, that, you know, you had your little like locked book thing up above and your desk below your cubicle and whatever you call it and then there were windows and-- I mean, but now, I mean, my husband which last year was my 50th anniversary.  This year it's his 50th anniversary so were pioneers as they call us.  But as part of last year's thing, they gave a big thing through Pattee and Paterno and all.  I mean, you know, they have 3D printers and they have-- I mean, you know, it's just so phenomenal with stuff they have. >> Absolutely. >> And again, they brought back like one of the executive directors for Saturday Night Live who's a Penn Stater and he came back to talk.  Bellisario, I want to mention him, if you watch NCIS or any other show.  Bellisario told a story.  Barry and I were at dinner.  Again, it's the College of Communications this time.  And Bellisario have not been back to campus in like 25 years.  And he came back and told the story that after the war, Vietnam, he came back to Penn State to finish his degree and he was $400 short.  He needed $400 to be able to finish the tuition.  And so, they gave him a loan which he said he never paid back and he was here to confess.  And that night, he gave a million dollars. >> Wow. >> Couple of years later, he comes back, brought his family from California because they had never seen Penn State but heard about it.  And he gave $30 million. >> Wow. ^M00:50:32 >> So, you know, what I'm saying is that, you know, all of these people were just regular little people from little towns in Pennsylvania.  They got a good education.  They made lifelong friends.  I was-- we were in South Carolina as I said and I was with a friend that I've known for 54 years.  I mean that's something about Penn Staters.  I'm not saying you have a hundred of these Penn Staters but, you know, there are Penn Staters that, you know, you stay in touch with them, they stay in touch with you.  And, you know, out of the whole crew, you're bound to get one, two or three of them that really will make it in the big time.  But guess what, they remember the good old days and they remember the people who liked them when they were what they were and those are the people they still want to be with.  So-- and when they had that kind of money, they realize what the school did for them.  They wouldn't be where they were if it wasn't for Penn State and they give back, you know.  So I think Bellisario is a wonderful sort of example of that story.  So yeah, it's a very special place and I would just say enjoy it, you know, just enjoy it, take advantage of everything while you're here because it doesn't last forever.  And that's the other thing, when you start out in life wherever you're going to be, you will never have all these people that are your age, you know, that's the other big difference, you know.  You walk around and everybody up here is 18 to what 22.  And there are hundreds and hundreds that you can meet and discuss and have things in common.  When you start life, whether it's with a company or an agency or whatever, guess what, you may be the only one that's 22 and everybody else is, you know, 35, 45, 55.  It becomes harder to meet people, you know, in your age range.  So that's another reason to take advantage of, you know, everything that you've got while you're here at Penn State in addition to the academics. >> Well, thank you very much. >> Well, and next, when we come back, I mean, we always-- we have another house up at Penn State so we come back a lot.  You have my email or whatever.  Are you a junior or a senior? >> I am a sophomore actually. >> Oh, fabulous.  OK.  We'll take you out to dinner one night when we're up [inaudible].  >> Oh, thank you very much.  Oh--  >> Yeah.  Yeah.  We love to do it because we love [inaudible] from current students, you know, sort of what's going on and kind of keep in touch and-- [inaudible].  Yeah, we have about three or four now that we keep in touch.  So we'll add you to our list and it was a pleasure talking to you and I hope it helps you with the project that, you know, it all works out. >> Thank you very much.  I really appreciate all your help.  I appreciate you taking the time and talk to me.  Thank you. >> Oh, not a problem, Nick.  Take care.  Have a good night.  Bye-bye. >> You too.  Bye-bye.

Interview by Isaiah Rapp

^B00:00:01 >> We are testing. I'm no tech person.  All right I think we've got it working. Say hi, Isaiah. >> Hello. This is Isaiah.  >> Herb Wolfson: Hi, how are you?  >> Not bad.  >> We had some struggles, we got it working.  >> Herb Wolfson: Okay.  >> I will leave you guys to it. Have a good one.  >> Thank you.  >> Herb Wolfson: All right. Thanks.  >> All right.  >> Herb Wolfson: All right.  >> How is your day going? >> Herb Wolfson: Oh, it's going well, thanks. I had a workout and now had lunch and now I'm ready. How are you doing? >> Not too bad. Only had 2 classes today so.  >> Herb Wolfson: Good. Good. A lighter day on Friday, huh? >> Yep. All right so do you want to just start by saying, just announcing your name and why you agreed to do this interview with me?  >> Herb Wolfson: Yeah, my name is Herb Wolfson, and I began at Penn State in the Fall of 1966 and I graduated in 1970. So was there in 1968. So you contacted me that you'd like to interview maybe because I was there in the turbulent period of 1968. So, I'm trying to remember everything because it's a long time ago, but, you know, I'll do my best.  >> That's all I ask.  >> Herb Wolfson: Okay.  >> So I guess to begin why did you pick Penn State as your place to further education? >> Herb Wolfson: You know when I was looking for colleges way back most young people stay close to home, and I'm from Pittsburgh so the choices were, you know, here, Pitt or Duquesne or Penn State and Penn State, you know, I went to visit and it was, there was actually a lot of building just before then. I think it was in the early 60s and it was just magnificent and it just, it just blew everybody away and in my high school I went to Allerdice High School in the city and 30 from my class went to Penn State. So we all kind of fell in love with Penn State.  >> Yeah. It's amazing. We actually saw a map in class of like the campus and all the buildings on it in '68 and then one now and just all of the stuff that's been added is pretty impressive.  >> Herb Wolfson: Yeah, yeah.  >> In 30 plus years. And so what was your major while at Penn State? >> Herb Wolfson: Well, my major was general arts and sciences in the College of Liberal Arts, of course, and you know I really never could pin myself down to something I was specifically interested in. So I did everything with the intent of furthering studies after graduating. So that's what I did. So, I took business courses after I graduated at Robert Morrison in Pittsburg, and I became a CPA and that's what I did my whole career. So I became a CPA. So I thought I had the best of both because I had the liberal arts education and then the business degree. >> Yeah. >> Herb Wolfson: Both have served me well.  >> They're complementary for sure.  >> Herb Wolfson: Yes.  >> Okay. Was there one course or even professor in general that made a lasting impression on you or inspired you to do certain things academically that you may not have done otherwise?  >> Herb Wolfson: You know in thinking about today about this interview I was just thinking of one course I took. I took one course in religious studies and, you know, that's not something that particularly interests me but I decided to take one course and I had the head of the department and his name was Luther Hershberger. And he was very, he was very impressive and the thing I remember actually there was an incident that ties in with the whole 1968. We were in his class and it was a small class and, you know, back then there weren't a lot of small classes in liberal arts. We had large lecture halls. So we had a small class and just a few minutes into the class there were 3 or 4 people around my age at the time who came in, and I think they were part of the students for Democratic Society and very, you know, aggressively against the War and they just came in and they said, you know, you really have to stop the class. There's more important things going on in the world than what you're talking about. And the professor, Dr. Hershberger, said you know you can come into our classroom and you can say anything you want, but you have to enroll in the class. Since you're not enrolled, you're going to have to leave right now. And, you know, he sort of caught them off guard and they left and, you know, it was really a great answer and we all may have agreed with them on some level, but they certainly had no right to take over the class.  ^M00:06:19 >> Yeah, definitely not.  I like that. That's a clever response from him.  >> Herb Wolfson: That was a great response, yes. I always remembered that. So that stuck.  >> That's a good one. This is kind of more, this is less about Penn State and just more about capturing the time I guess the difference in times, but when you were a student at Penn State, where did you get your local or national news? Just where did you get news? Obviously it's different from today with the constant 24-hour news cycle. So I thought that would be interesting.  >> Herb Wolfson: Well, we had the Daily Collegian. So I think it's weekly now but the Penn State paper was published every day and that's, you know, as you said the news was totally different. It was just watching the local news and the national news. So I really didn't do much of that, but I did read the Daily Collegian most of the time. So that's probably where I got it mostly.  >> Yeah. Actually in this class one of our assignments was we found a Collegian from 1968 and we were just sort of analyzing the salient issues of the day and what was on the front page and what that would tell us. It was really interesting. I kind of wish we had a more read, I wish the Collegian I guess was more attended to still today.  >> Herb Wolfson: Is it weekly now or it's not daily anymore? >> I think it's weekly, but it's not as popular. It's not as common of a really, I don't know. I guess they just don't have as many writers for it or something, but it definitely seemed more official in the '68 ones I saw.  >> Herb Wolfson: Yeah.  >> Okay. That's kind of a long question. So there was definitely a lot occurring in the late 60s. I have the moon photos, all the student protests, the election. If you can remember, what were your specific interests at the time and did you gain them at Penn State or did you hold these interests before arriving here as well? >> Herb Wolfson: Well, I, first of all I always liked sports, I liked to participate on my level, which wasn't a high level but I enjoyed participating. And then I enjoyed being a fan. And so on the participant level there were intramural sports so I remember being on intramural football teams at Penn State and we did pretty well not mostly because of me but we had some other good players. And I remember making the playoffs and so that was interesting for me and then as a fan Penn State really exploded. My first year, '66, was Joe Paterno's first years as head coach and Penn State did okay, basically a 500 team, but then the year after that and the years after that they just hardly ever lost. I think they were undefeated 2 years in a row. So, as a fan and just seeing, you know, just watching the team and just listening to Paterno about his, we all listened to him. He said if you prepare well, you know, then you'll be ready and we sort of translated that into own our lives in preparing for classes, for whatever we were doing. So he had quite an impact on everybody at the time, but I enjoyed how good they were and, you know, some of the players were Franco Harris and Jack Hamm who then became Pittsburgh Steelers and Pro Football Hall of Fame and it just exploded when he took over.  ^M00:10:58 >> Yeah, he definitely seemed to use his role. I mean he was definitely more than a football coach for Penn State. I mean he's still a huge figure. Definitely did more than just coach a team, you know. >> Herb Wolfson: Yeah, yeah. What a sad ending, but what a wonderful time while he was there.  >> Yeah. That's funny you say that I actually transferred to Penn State. I went to it's a little school called Oberlin College in Ohio.  >> Herb Wolfson: Yes.  >> I played football there and it is, you always when you're young, really young, you always think they're just saying it, but football definitely has a lot of connection to the real world. So, that's interesting.  >> Herb Wolfson: Yeah, are you playing at all at Penn State? >> I was glad you said that. Me and a few friends actually played IM football and basketball this past semester. So that gives us something to do. It was a good time.  >> Herb Wolfson: Yeah, yeah. Good. >> All right. Was there any, were you into music in the 60s? The 60s were a huge musical explosion as well. Did you have any favorites? >> Herb Wolfson: Just listening to the music and, you know, I can remember, of course, you know, the Beatles and I remember Diana Ross coming to Penn State and Diana Ross and the Supremes, who was a big Motown group at the time. I remember she was at Rec Hall and I remember seeing her. And, you know, it was quite a big thing to have her at Penn State. She just rocked the place. So I remember that, but I loved all the music and the music, you know, of course expressed the feelings of the time the Beatles, Simon and Garfunkel. The Beach Boys were more of a feel good thing. So they were just not, you know, as politically inspiring, which is good music to listen to, but we just listened to all the music and loved it.  >> Yeah. I really love music from that era too. I really like the Beatles and the Doors are one of my favorite bands and just, I just, because sometimes I definitely really wish I could have heard them when they were new because it's hard to think about I mean you realize that their music was revolutionary but it's hard to think about making it before ever hearing anything like it.  >> Herb Wolfson: Yeah. And then, you know, just fitting in with that period of time where everything just sort of exploded and, you know, before then there was just, you know, like, well, I guess Elvis Presley was considered a little radical when I was at Penn State, but before then it was just know, you know, the crooners like the Frank Sinatra and Dean Martin type. So everything changed musically.  >> Yeah. Definitely important and I still see it like today with music I hear today like, it's like wow they definitely stole this from the Beatles or anyone, the Rolling Stones like you definitely hear their influences still today. >> Herb Wolfson: Yeah, yeah, and I actually saw Paul McCartney a couple of years ago so that was kind of nice. I liked that.  >> That's good. My friend actually just said to me recently he said, hey, if Paul McCartney comes around here anytime, it'll be expensive but we have to go see him. We have to be able to say we saw a Beatle. That would be cool.  >> Herb Wolfson: Yeah. He's still out there so it could happen. He could still sing.  >> Okay. These are, those were pretty standard questions. I wrote some of these other ones. Okay, so it's kind of hard to explain, but what norms of today that you see around Penn State such as the way people dress or just any little thing like that. Are there any norms of today that you wish you would have had back then and are there any that you're sort of glad they were the way they were? I know a big thing we talked about was how hard it was to hang out with women on campus like it was outlawed for them to come on to men's dorms territories and stuff like that.  ^M00:15:38 >> Herb Wolfson: You know it was and even more than that I think the ratio was 3 guys to every lady and the reason is that the girls had to stay in the dorms. So there wasn't enough housing. So, we were at a real disadvantage and the other thing that happened it was harder for a girl to get in because there were less spots. So the girls were smarter than the guys for the most part. So not only were they in the minority but they were generally smarter than we were at least academically. So we were at a real disadvantage. So, we would normally or for the most part certainly in the early years we would, you know, connect with maybe girlfriends at home but later on, you know, when we were juniors and seniors then, you know, we were a little more sophisticated so then we could certainly [inaudible] to the freshmen and sophomore girls, but, yeah. So, yeah, I wish it were more equal at the time.  >> Definitely strange that, it's strange to think about now because it's definitely a lot of progress to be made in 30, 40 years. I mean now that we just live door to door and stuff like that, apartments.  >> Herb Wolfson: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that's good. And it wasn't fair to the girls either because, you know, they couldn't get in unless they were extremely bright.  >> Yeah. I saw, I forget what we said it might have been in about '70 or '71 after some of the housing regulations and stuff got switched that women started to be enrolled more than men and I know that's how it is today. I'm pretty sure the ratio is like 54% women.  >> Herb Wolfson: Oh, boy. I didn't realize that. That's interesting.  >> It changed.  >> Herb Wolfson: Yeah, yeah.  >> Okay. Let's see here.  >> Herb Wolfson: One other thing I wish that was around when I was there is it seems today Penn State is more personalized and they reach out for everybody to participate more whereas when I went there were, you know, like big lecture halls and it seemed like you were more on your own. So I think it's progressed a lot. >> Yeah, I agree. Especially coming from a smaller school there's just a, there's a resource for everything. I mean just because there's so many people they can't always be like advertise to you constantly, but if you just look it up or something, there's probably someone on campus who can help you get what you need to get it done. So it's definitely beneficial and helps with, it helps to have that like with the money we're paying and all the constant like stuff going on it's definitely nice to have somewhere to go to handle problems. >> Herb Wolfson: Yeah, yeah. I'm sure.  >> That way you don't feel cast out and alone. And even what you said about class size I had heard when I was transferring here like, oh, wow, your classes are going to be huge. You're not going to be used to that. And, yeah, some are but those are mostly my gen eds. All of my, I'm a political science major so all of my poly sci classes are under like 30 people for sure.  >> Herb Wolfson: Oh, excellent. That's terrific.  >> Yeah.  >> Herb Wolfson: That's excellent. So one other advantage, well, one advantage we had is that the tuition it was truly the idea that the state school is so that everybody can get an education and I remember we had 3 terms and the cost was $150 a term. So it was $450 a year total for tuition when I started and then the room and board in the dorm was it may have been a $1,000. So that was totally different. So it was really available to everybody who was qualified. That doesn't seem to be the case anymore.  >> Yeah, it seems to have just become a college or post secondary education has become an industry in itself now. There's so much money involved.  >> Herb Wolfson: Yeah, yeah.  >> Kind of sad. Oh, well. Hopefully it'll, I mean I think it'll have to be addressed at some point or else it just wouldn't be good for the economy as a whole so I don't know if it'll keep rising forever.  ^M00:20:41 >> Herb Wolfson: Yeah, yeah. Penn State does so much for the state and I guess politically that message has to get a little better. >> Okay. This question is also related to sort of the social scene at Penn State. I wrote was there a divide between students who were in strong support of Civil Rights movements or antiwar movements or counter culture anything off mainstream and those were more reserved politically and if you can recall maybe instances of violence or like decisiveness that you witnessed or heard about? >> Herb Wolfson: I can't recall any violence, but it seemed like the, it seemed like it was really just a fringe that were radical and the large majority were not and, you know, as things like the war continued on, you know, everybody came on board that it was wrong and that it was, there were a lot of bad things about it and, you know, we all supported not all but almost everybody to stop and, but it was a fringe that was radical. As far as social issues like, you know, race issues, I don't remember seeing that many Black students at Penn State when I was there, you know, maybe the seeds were growing, were starting, but it was a true small group that were Blacks that were there. I remember a few that I, that were in my dorm and, you know, we talked and everything. Everybody got along well but it was, it really didn't change much from the way it was before.  >> Yeah.  >> Herb Wolfson: I do remember after Martin Luther King was killed I remember, and I wasn't there when he spoke on campus. I think it was the year before I came, but I do remember his successor Ralph Abernathy coming to campus and I did hear him. He spoke at the Hub and he was real inspiring and his message was, you know, really well accepted, but you know, I don't remember, you know, I remember as I said the minority, the fringe minority, but most of us were just at Penn State for the same reasons that everybody has always been there to, you know, to figure out who we were and what we wanted to do and get through all of that confusion and so it was sort of on the outside of everything else.  >> Yeah. It's definitely understandable. There's just, I feel like a lot of times we nowadays we just act like the 60s were just this time of constant like upheaval but they're still just real people just doing their thing and going about their days.  >> Herb Wolfson: Yeah, that's exactly --  >> -- I don't think we can expect everybody to be like fully committed to it. Like nowadays it looks like that but it's just, it was just another movement and in 30 years people may look back around this time and talk about how much protest and stuff was going on, you know. It's not fair to lump everyone in.  >> Herb Wolfson: Yeah, that's exactly the way it was so as you described.  >> We talked about I kind of forget his name I think he was a football and basketball player. His name was Jessie Arnell I think.  >> Herb Wolfson: Yeah.  >> He, we talked a lot about how he advocated a lot for more Black students and professors and stuff. He actually gave a big speech about it I think it was like a team banquet after his senior year and everybody expected him to just, you know, accept his award or whatever he was receiving, but he gave like a very politically charged speech and I guess it worked because after that I think the Penn State Administration made a point to try to have more Black students enroll. Like you said in your time I think it was only around like 1 or 2% of the population were Black and it's still actually an issue here that gets talked about like the, I mean there's a lot of diversity at Penn State but given the size there's still just, it's still mostly us white guys, but I think it's up around like, it's near 10% I think.  ^M00:26:08 >> Herb Wolfson: That's pretty good.  >> Yeah it is.  >> Herb Wolfson: When was Jessie Arnell there? Was it in the 50s? >> I think.  >> Herb Wolfson: It wasn't during my time.  >> No. I think it might have been, I think he may have graduated right before.  >> Herb Wolfson: Right before me. Okay.  >> Like '65, '66.  >> Herb Wolfson: Okay. All right.  >> I don't remember too many details here about that.  >> Herb Wolfson: That's okay because I did go to the football, was he on the football team? >> Yeah. He was actually an All American in football and basketball. Like that was one notable thing I remembered. I have my notes here. Let me see if I have any.  >> Herb Wolfson: Yeah, I can remember, you know, I had friends who went to other schools like Wisconsin and there was, they were much more active and Penn State just seemed real quiet by comparison.  >> It is kind of, I was reading something today I forget the topic but it mentioned how Penn State is a huge school but it's more tucked away from the other ones like some big schools are just in a city like Temple, for example. I don't know if that's public but still. >> Herb Wolfson: Yeah, it is.  >> Okay. All right so let's just kind of, I thought this was interesting just on a pretty basic level like I said about all of the geographic changes and building switches that have taken place over the years. So, or additions I'm sorry. So which buildings at Penn State were you in most often whether for a class or any other reason? And I also have which technological advancements at Penn State are most impressive or would have benefited you the most? >> Herb Wolfson: I think the classes that I was in the most would be Willard and is there still an old Willard and a new Willard? >> It's just, it's one, they just added like a ground floor. I'm still in there every day.  >> Herb Wolfson: Okay. Yeah. So Willard and then the forum I had a lot of classes in those two buildings. Technological advances today that you mean if I could have had back then? >> Yeah, just anything you would have wanted maybe or would have helped.  >> Herb Wolfson: I just think the Internet in general. I remember even when we picked our classes we did it in Rec Hall and they had all these booths and you had to walk around from one to another and if there was a class you wanted, you would go to that booth and if they had any openings, then they would give you, you know, like a tab, a paper tab and you would write your name on it. And if they didn't, then you had to find another booth. And the freshmen went in last. So the freshmen had the last picks. And so there was like zero technology, you know, when I was there even that.  >> Sometimes it can just cause some confusion I know that. I mean like we schedule our classes online and sometimes they're not actually full but like it's called [inaudible] just mess up and tell you it's full so then you email the professor or something. Maybe it was simple but I doubt there were too many things getting in the way of knowing whether you had the class or not. ^M00:30:26 >> Herb Wolfson: No, you would know but in the early years it was kind of frustrating because you really just go from one booth to another until you get a class and maybe you didn't particularly want it, but just I mean just as an example but there was just no technology. The Internet just, everything is so quick and efficient. It was slow back then.  >> One thing I've noticed is Penn State the technology they do use like the websites they use are pretty unique. We had a service called Blackboard with like all our classes and grades on at my old school and it was pretty streamlined. It was pretty easy to use and a lot of like new professors here and new students always complain about it. My one political science professor just got here in January and he's always fighting with like the projectors in the room and stuff. He can never get it to work right.  >> Herb Wolfson: Well, even today, you know, you couldn't get it going at 2 o'clock. I guess there are those issues so we never had that it was just face to face.  >> There are definitely drawbacks. I mean we had like a class meeting on how to work it but that was a while ago and I got in here and I'm like what am I doing wrong? But we got it.  >> Herb Wolfson: Yeah, yeah.  >> Okay. So multi-part again. So what was the typical Friday night for you in '68? Did classes and homework take up the majority of your time? And when they weren't taking up your time and you didn't have to worry about exams or assignments, what did you like to do for fun around the state college? >> Herb Wolfson: On Friday, Friday night or any? >> Yeah. I just picked a day as an example.  >> Herb Wolfson: Well, Friday night, you know, we would all go into town when I was 21 and really even before we'd try to get in bars, before 21, and get drinks. There's just, yeah, the guys would be because there weren't as many women so the guys would just hang out all the time and we actually used to play pinball machines. They had these pinball shops on College Avenue and we would go there and spend just to relax and, you know, we would have, I remember we'd have poker games. So there would be poker games, going to bars, pinball. If we could get a date, that would be nice. So that was tough. Or we'd go home for the weekend. You know because I'm from Pittsburgh so there was probably more to do in Pittsburgh and it's not that far so we would go home maybe every 4 weekends and just do things there, but. >> Yeah, I don't think too much has probably changed in that regard.  >> Herb Wolfson: Is that right? >> I mean I'm trying to think like today I'm done with class pretty early so I usually just eat lunch, wait for my friends to get done and then we kind of sit around and maybe play video games or something.  >> Herb Wolfson: Okay. So we did pinball so you do videos.  >> Try to get in a bar or something they're always packed and I think most of us are 21 so it's definitely helpful. I just turned 21 in October but you definitely can't get in, can't get in if you're not. They still have the bouncer guy right at the door and he checks you out.  >> Herb Wolfson: Yeah. Some of them card everybody today because I've gone back and I can't get in anywhere without showing a card. I can't buy beer at like Wagman's or anything without showing my driver's license and they scan it. I think they watch everything, which is probably a good idea.  >> Yeah. I'm trying to think I had something else about that. Yeah, it is kind of, one thing about college that I had to get used to is just like setting my own or keeping track of my due dates because especially like with technological advances and stuff there's a lot of times where a professor may not mention it in like the preceding days, but it's still on our like to do list online and it's still due. You just have to keep checking it so that's kind of frustrating because sometimes I really wish they would just tell me in person.  >> Herb Wolfson: Yeah, yeah.  >> But there's a lot of little assignments that you've got to stay on top of or forget them.  >> Herb Wolfson: Yeah.   >> Yeah, I mean I really appreciate your doing this. This has been fun for me.  >> Herb Wolfson: Yeah, yeah, I'm sure it is.  >> I wanted to ask one last thing I have here is so after our discussion what is one suggestion you may offer to current PSU students just to get the most out of the college experience or maybe a word, words of wisdom from somebody who has already been there and a lot of times people get really nervous at this age because we don't really know what we're going to do. >> Herb Wolfson: Yeah, yeah.  >> What exactly we're going to be so anything you want to say there.  >> Herb Wolfson: Well, I mean it's just enjoy as much as you can the moment and realize that you're going to be a student for 4 years and then you're going to be alumni forever after that. And Penn State really is a special place and, you know, just to realize that. I think I saw that when Penn State had all the problems when the Sandusky thing broke and it seemed like, you know, everybody on the outside wanted to, just to tear into Penn State and the alum and the students and everybody just stuck so closely together and I was kind of proud of that that, you know, we still had our pride and we still had a love of Penn State, and I think that helped Penn State through the tough time, but I guess, you know, it would be just to realize that you're young and a student for such a relatively short period and that if you can realize that, and I know, you know, it's a changing time of your life and there's a lot of confusion, but just grasp it, realize how great it is because you will later, but if you could do it now if you could do it today, that would be really great.  >> Absolutely. Embrace the current confusion. It won't last forever.  >> Herb Wolfson: Well, that's well said, yeah. That's really good. Embrace the current confusion is good.  >> Yeah, I think it's always impressive to me for, I mean because I live like an hour or so away from Penn State. Like I live in Central PA it's always been impressive like that the tightly wound sort of family dynamic that Penn State has for such a huge place and like you said like amidst all the stuff that went down it doesn't just mean everyone who has ever been involved with Penn State is a bad person like it was an isolated incident and, yeah, there's definitely a lot of pride here and I really like it.  >> Herb Wolfson: Yeah, I think Penn State is really unique. I think a lot of, I don't think a lot of universities or colleges would have rebounded as well as Penn State has.  >> I agree. Well, I really appreciate your input and just taking the time out of your day.  >> Herb Wolfson: It was my pleasure. I enjoyed it. Best of luck. What year are you in? >> I'm a junior.  >> Herb Wolfson: Okay. So you still have time so that's good.  >> Yeah, a little bit of time left.  >> Herb Wolfson: Yeah. Okay. All right, Isaiah, well I enjoyed it and it's my pleasure.  >> Thank you so much. Have a good rest of your day.  >> Herb Wolfson: Thanks you too. Take care. Bye.  ^E00:39:52

Interview by Lilly Adams

[ Music ]  ^M00:00:04 ^M00:00:06

>> Hello. 

>> Hello, Miss Adams.  

>> It is nice to meet you Mr. Woodson.  

>> Well, here we are, okay.  

>> How are you doing today?  

>> I'm doing great.  

>>That's good.

>> I'm pleased to say and thank you for coming on the line.  Thanks a lot for your help.  Alright.  So, you've been, you've really been attentive to this matter?

>> Yes, I have.  

>> Yeah, yeah okay.

>> It's been quite the process trying to get this all setup.  

>> Okay, well I'm glad that we are real now.

>> Right.  Me too.  It's nice to put a face to a name.  

>> Okay, okay.  So, tell me what's on your mind.  

>> Okay, so you've done this interview before correct?  With the 1968 class?  

>> I did.

>> Okay.  Alright, so I'm just going to ask you a few questions. You don't have to answer them if you don't feel comfortable, but first I need to ask you to state your name and the years that you went to Penn State.  

>> Yeah, let me make sure I; who are you?   I mean, it would be nice to know who I'm talking to.

>> Oh, okay, okay.  

>> Tell me about who you are.

>> Okay, well my name is Lily.  I'm a freshman. I'm majoring in film.

>> Okay.  

>> I am a member of the Radio Club and the Student Film Organization where we setup this Blue and White Film Festival for student films and its people can win awards, it's pretty cool, but yeah.  

>> So, why are you doing this at least with me?  What is; what drew your interest to me?  I'll be happy to tell you about myself, but what is it about me that's drawing your attention?

>> Well, I think for the most part, well when we were talking about Penn State back in the 60s, I wasn't aware of the racism that was going on at the university at the time in terms of Black students and that was something that really interested me. So, when I saw in your profile that you were an African-American that drew me to want to ask you questions about the university back then.  

>> Okay.  Well, to that point, I did have a an extended interview with Carl Taylor at the College of Liberal Arts and if you've not seen that video, perhaps you have, but if you have not seen that video, then I invite your attention to it and take a look at what, because it was a fairly expended and in-depth discussion that I had with him. So, if you haven't seen it, I invite you take a look at it and in the middle of that and not in lieu of it, back-up in addition to that, here I am.  

>> Okay.

>> So, I can take your questions. 

>> Okay.  So, what years did you attend Penn State?

>> I went to Penn State from 1965 to 1969.

>> Okay.  

>> And why did you choose Penn State for your college?

>> Oh, well let me see, why did I choose Penn State?  It was not first choice in going to college.  As a; and indeed the reason Penn State came on my radar is because a childhood friend who preceded me out of high school went to Penn State and I saw him my senior year in, in college, my senior year in high school over Christmas holidays and he talked about going to Penn State and what it was like and suggested that I look into Penn State as a possible alternative for college and I did.  I liked what I saw and went.  

>> Nice.  Okay.  Okay.  So, while you were at Penn State what was your major?

>> I was a prelaw major. That was a kind, that was an offshoot of political science. Prelaw at the time was a policide major that had a certain type of electives.  You had to take accounting and an econ class, and a computer science class; why we had to computer science I never did understand that, but.

>> Did you not have computers back then?

>> A fair question, right?  Actually, yes we did. We had a computer science building on campus and that building housed a large IBM mainframe and this is in the age of computers where you had to have the cards and you punch the cards out and put them in the machine and it sounds so archaic and old and almost Neanderthal then, but it was a very, very big deal on campus to be, to even to be able to use the machine. So, yeah, so I had to take a computer science class as an elective and an econ class and an accounting class, and that made me a prelaw major.  But my actual major was political theory. 

>> Okay.  So, what made you want to be a political theory major?  

>> Because the social sciences, in my humbled opinion, the social sciences are all grounded in the same series of base-level intellectual treaties, treatises.  Political science, sociology, psychology, economics; I call them the social sciences and I wanted to be an attorney and policide seemed to be the thing to do.  So, that's what drew me to policide.

>> And so, are you an attorney now?

>> Yes.  

>> Okay.

>> I'm a partner in the law firm of Holland and Knight in Washington.  Our law firm is one of the largest firms in the country. 

>> Wow.

>> We have about 1400 lawyers in multiple offices in several countries. 

>> Wow.  Wow.  Congratulations.  

>> Thank you.  

>> So, at your time at Penn State was there a particular course or a professor that made an impression on you?  

>> Oh, I had a number; I had several of them.

>> Oh, okay.  

>> Let me see. The most important person at my time at Penn State was a man named Dr. David Ritchie.  He was academic advisor in the Liberal Arts College, a member of the Political Science Faculty and was the principal lecturer on political theory and I took all of his classes. There were, I guess maybe 8 or 9 of them that I took from Dr. Ritchie.  He was among the most influential people in my intellectual development and I cared deeply for him.  I went to every class, believe it or not, I went to every class, sat in the front, took notes, copious notes as a matter of fact, and I was very happy that he agreed to be my academic advisor and it worked out well for me.  

>> Did you stay in contact with him after you graduated?

>> I did for a period of time, but I went off to law school and I guess after; I guess after I was out of school, out of law school a couple of years, I kind of lost touch with him.  I tried to regain contact with Dr. Ritchie about 5 years ago and I understood that he left the country to teach in Israel.  

>> Wow, okay.

>> So, I never; I didn't go pass that. I thought he still might be at school and retired from the faculty.  So, I haven't pressed forward to seek him further. But since you've asked me that question, I think I'm going to write that down. I think I'm [brief laughter]. 

>> Glad I can help with that.  

>> Okay.  So, go ahead.  

>> Okay, so what music did you like?  

>> Oh, what music did I like?  

>> Yeah.

>> You mean at that time or now?

>> At that time, but you can tell me now too if.

>> Sure.  I actually like a broad array of music. There's not a particular genre of music that I'm more, than I'm most fond of. I love jazz as most African-Americans do, at least they'll claim they like it, but I really do like real jazz as opposed to smooth jazz.  I'm very fond of classical music.  The first record album that I ever had was an album given to me by my mother when I was maybe 7, 6 or 7 years old.  I have that album to this day.  

^M00:10:26

It's a recording of Beethoven's "Violin Concerto."  And if you've never heard it; he only wrote one, and it's one of the finest pieces of music I've ever heard. 

>> Wow. Okay.  

>> So, I love classical music and I like popular music, pop music if you will.  I enjoy that like the top radio stations and so on.  I really like New-Age music.  If you were a Pandora fan, do you listen to Pandora? 

>> I do use Pandora.  

>> Okay.  I have a couple of really favorite Pandora stations.

>> Okay.  

>> One is Massive Attack.

>> Massive Attack. 

>> Is the name of the group.  Another is called Zero 7 and then there are a couple of collateral stations like Chill Out Time. That's what it's called Chill Out.

>> Right.

>> The Hip-Hop BBQ.  How about that?

>> I like that one.  

>> Yeah. That's really cool actually Hip-Hop BBQ.   And in, I guess since, since I saw the movie "Straight Outta Compton", I have been more interested in the rap music of the 90s, the 80s and the 90s. So, Tupac notorious NUA and so on, you know, Public Enemy you know. I really started paying attention to their music which in many ways was [inaudible] in, and believed that I did not appreciate at the time it was out.  But my musical taste runs a large gamut.  

>> Okay.  So, back in at your time at Penn State 65 to 69, what would you say was your favorite type of music?  

>> Oh, I really liked rock.  

>> Okay.  

>> I was, I was a big fan of Cream, The Beatles at least with "Sgt.Pepper's" , the Stones, The Doors.  I was into all of that.  

>> Okay. 

>> And I was particularly fond of Cream.  That was Eric Clapton's first group. I thought they were among; they were probably the greatest rock band of the 60s. There were only three of them and I saw them in concert in Philly.  

>> Oh, wow.

>> I was in college and they were just off the chain. I would go see them again.  

>> Did you ever see The Doors or The Beatles or any of the other bands that you liked? 

>> No, I didn't see them. I saw Joplin.

>> Yeah.

>> In Philly.  And I never saw The Beatles or The Doors   The Beatles were too much of a hype kind of group, and most of the time I was there their Sgt. Pepper's album sort of changed the direction of rock music and so I was very much a fan of theirs, but I never saw them in, saw them live. Their concerts were always kind of crazy to me and I wasn't really interested in the crowd.  The Doors, I didn't get into The Doors until a little later and, although I liked some of their music, which I, and I must say I really did like the music, it wasn't a group that I was, that I was ready to run out to try to get a ticket and go see them somewhere.

>> Right.  Right.  

>> Because I was happy enough with their records.

>> So, I am a huge Grateful Dead fan.

>> Oh, you're one of; you're a Dead Head huh?  Okay.

>> Yeah.  Yeah, so were you interested in the Grateful Dead back in those days?  

>> Actually, I did like the Dead. Frank Zappa was always an innovative musician and I was not a huge Dead fan.  It, at the time, the Dead were just emerging as an influential group during the late 60s and it main; they kind of broke out big time the 70s.

>> Yeah.

>> And so the Dead really were kind of early rock to me, and so I didn't kind of pay a lot of attention to them.  I paid more attention to them later and enjoyed, and have enjoyed a lot of their music. I've never gone to see them, but I have some friends, I've had friends over the years who were real Dead Heads and they would follow the Dead around. They went to see the Dead at least once a year and, but they were in my humble opinion, they were a better group to see live. They were very innovative and some of their studio pieces were okay, but they're live recordings were terrific.  

>> Right.  That's why they have so many of them.  

>> Okay, so you're a Dead Head fan, okay.

>> Yeah.  And they, they are still touring if you.

>> Yeah, without Zappa.  I mean, but because Zappa was the guy to me.  So, but yes they are still touring. 

>> Yeah, if you're at all interested to go.  So, what 1960s, the late 1960s were big in the New Hollywood in terms of film.  Were you at all interested in film and if you were, what kind of movies did you like back in those days?

>> You say the 60s were a time of what?  What do you call that?

>> They, it was the New Hollywood was emerging. 

>> Hollywood; what is, what do you mean by that?

>> It was a time whenever directors were doing more experimental stuff with their filmmaking.  New, like "The Graduate" for instance is supposed to be like the pinnacle of the New Hollywood with the shaky camera and the story that doesn't involve a White boy and a White girl falling in love.  It's, it gets more into the emotions that a real human can face, so that's what directors were experimenting with in that time.  

>> Oh, I see what you mean.  Yeah.  Well, I always liked; I've always been a film fan maybe not the way you are as an academic pursuit, but I took two classes in theater arts as an elective, and the move, the theater arts classes were always in the Forum Building, the round building up near on the north side of campus.  

>> We still have that building.  

>> Yeah, yeah the Forum was pretty new when I was in school.

>> Oh, okay.

>> And that's where all of the big lecture classes were as in addition to the film classes, and so in I guess, how do I describe this?  I liked a series of directors that attracted my attention. As an example, we did a series, we views a series of films by Roger Corman who as you probably know, Roger Corman he always kind of did macabre movies, but his thing was color and his use of really bright powerful color to express, to express his artistic sensibilities. So, I like Roger Corman. I like Bergman. I was very fond of Hitchcock's movies, primarily because Hitchcock essentially storyboarded his entire movie and everyone in the movie, every minute of the time and I thought that intriguing. The other was his use of camera angles to create suspense and I remember the first time I looked at "Psycho" as an actual and like an analytical thing, like to look a "Psycho" other than to be scared by it.

>> Right.

>> But to actually look at it and to observe the number of shots that he used to create a suspenseful moment, the shower death, the shower stabbing scene, and more importantly, the scene of the detective who went to the house and walked up the stairs of the house and finally got killed. The number of shots used there to create the sense of anticipation and horror was just stunning to me.  

^M00:20:09 

And then, you know, his other movies using innovative visual techniques, the gosh--the, oh god what was the name of that movie?  "Vertigo" was one, "North by Northwest" and the one with James Stewart where he was looking out the window.

>> "Rear Window." 

>> I'm sorry.

>> "Rear Window."  

>> Yeah, "Rear Window" there, see you know this stuff right?  Lily you know you stuff.  So, and then I liked some of the other cinemas, movie cinema kind of things with huge budget epic movies. The Ben Hur's, Cleopatra's, El Cid's, they were gigantic productions that were devoid of special effects, electronic effects, everything had to be done live and they were amazing, amazing productions.  Not just in the cost of the production, but in staging it and conceding it, in staging it, in filming it, they were really amazing pictures.  We have nothing like that, nothing even approaching that today.  

>> It's CGI. 

>> I'm sorry.

>> It's all CGI.

>> Yeah, that's true.  So, I was and then I was part of the crowd that saw the old "Night of the Living Dead" movie which was absolutely crazy.  

>> Ah-huh.

>> I've never gone to see that in a movie in the winter, that was crazy.

>> Right. 

>> But, so yeah I really did enjoy theater and particularly movies and it was not just, and it was the, it was the director, it was the directorial character to it that is, but there was, to me, there was also the image itself; the use of imagery; the unusual use of color of the extent to which you use black and white to achieve certain objectives, certain effects.  I think one of the greatest directors ever was Orson Welles and the shot, oh um think of name of this movie, Charlton Heston was the star of the movie and it took place in the opening shot took place in Mexico, and I can't think if the name of this movie right now, but the opening shot of this movie was one of the longest single shot scenes ever done and it's, I didn't never, I never understood how he actually did it, because the film, the shot started way up in the air and then it went down onto the ground and went down the street and around the corner, it was an amazing, it was an amazing shot. That was his, of course, "Citizen Kane" was the classic Welles' movie and the use of black and white photography and so on.  So, yes I loved it.  

>> Was there a movie theater in State College that you went to?

>> Yeah, there was basically one.  It was, it was the movie on College Avenue near the diner, the college, State College Diner.  

>> The State Theater?

>> The State Theater, right, and that basically the only movie in town. You had to kind of go out of town or make; there was a drive-in and you had the, but the State Theater was the only one and I went there, I actually saw "The Graduate" there.  

>> Oh.

>> Yeah, because I saw "The Graduate" when it first came out at the movies.  

>> Wow.

>> And that happened while I was there.  I had, I saw at the State.

>> Wow.  

>> And which was quite a moment actually. That and I think it was at the time "Love Story."  Did that come out at the time?  I think "Love Story" was out at that time too with Ryan O'Neil and Ali somebody.  Ali whatever her name was, but anyway, the State Theater, but that the only place, so went to the State Theater or you didn't go to the movies.  

>> So, where did you obtain your news from?  

>> Newspapers, television, newspapers.

>> Was there a specific television station or newspaper that you got it from?

>> Yeah, well you have to remember there weren't that many.  

>> Right.

>> You know, the media, the visual well I should say the communications media was more narrow.  And so, on the newspaper front, there were, well the one paper I read every day was The Daily Collegian. That was one, and that was actually pretty good, because I knew the editor. 

>> Oh.

>> At least the editor of my junior and senior year and then I always made it a point to read the New York Times. You could buy the Times down on College Avenue.  It was a newsstand near the corner that had newspapers and you could find newspapers from a lot of places, but the New York Times was then and remains now to me the premiere newspaper out in the country and I read it regularly.  Now, television basically, you know, CBS, NBC, or ABC and of the three national news stations, the one that everyone watched was Walter Cronkite at CBS Evening News and the other was The Huntley-Brinkley Report on NBC and the, which I really liked, I liked The Huntley-Brinkley Report a lot.  They seemed to say more to us. And the other was The Evening National News was an hour, it wasn't 30 minutes.

>> Okay.

>> And so, you got more out of them, out of the evening news by looking at television. The UHF stations, at least the UHF broadcast stations really didn't come much into play until I would say the 70s and I didn't watch any of them.  They, none of them had news at least that I remember and so that wasn't where I went for news information.  

>> What was your favorite television show at the time?

>> Oh, no doubt "Star Trek."  

>> Oh, okay.  

>> I'm  a Trekker. I'm a Trekker for real.  

>> Ah-huh, ah-huh.

>> I was really into "Star Trek" and, as a matter of fact, I'll tell you a story about that if you're interested?  

>> Of course.  

>> Let turn this off.  The original "Star Trek" first started being broadcast in 1966 and it was only on 3 years, and I saw every episode.  It used to come on, the main timeframe, it started on Thursdays, but the main timeframe was Fridays at 10 and at the time I was in my fraternity house. We had an old black and white television then [inaudible] up on the mantle near the fireplace and every Friday when "Star Trek" came on, everything stopped and we all gathered to watch "Star Trek", right.  And soon we had a group of girls come down from one the sororities to have a party with us and they had to wait until "Star Trek" was over.  We wouldn't start the party.

>> Oh, my gosh.  

>> So, that was fun. I liked "Laugh-In" too.  

>> Oh.  

>> That was a fun show and it really was fun. "Laugh-In" was so crazy that the silliness of it was, it helped your mind. The silliness of the subject was a real diversion and you could laugh out loud to things.  So, I really liked those 2 shows.  

>> So, "Laugh-In" that was like, that was an earlier kind "Saturday Night Live" right?  

>> Yeah, kind of.  Yeah, it was sort of, yeah I guess you could say that. Once in a while they had interesting guests who would come through with the repertoire group, repertoire group, but I never really care about the guests. 

^M00:30:05 

The regular group of "Laugh-In" participants were fine enough for me and so what you did is, what you really enjoyed was the tone of the skits which would repeat and the characters would show up and there was this old guy that spoke with this crazy sound and voice and he would always, at some, and at the end of his participation in the show, he would be struck by something, like somebody would hit him with a [audio issues] and he fall over on the side. It was really funny.  Goldie Hawn was silly and kind of, kind of crazy brained, but that was just her character. She was really smart and then Rowan and Martin as a comedy team they were fun.  It was a fun show.  And it was more "Saturday Night Live" early "Saturday Night Live" when with Dan Aykroyd, and John Belushi, and Steve Martin and all that when they were "Laugh-In." Not "Laugh-In", but when they were SNL that was more like "Laugh-In" than it is today.

>> Right. 

>> At least.

>> Who was your favorite movie star, television star at the time?

>> Hum.  I have to think about that.  Movie star and television star. Well, I think it's worth noting initially, that there were almost no African-Americans on either media.  So, we'll start with that, and you had a few exceptions.  There may have, Sidney Poitier, came kind of emerged at that time.  Diahann Carroll came up on television some, but pretty much there wasn't, at least in the African-American diaspora.  There was pretty much no one on the scene. Now that said, that didn't mean I didn't like others. I just took; I'm just taking note of that as an observation today with a fact.  But, in television stars, I really didn't have, I don't recall having a particular television start that I liked.  I liked television shows. There is, I was, I've always been a fan of westerns. So, and probably my favorite television western at the time was "Have Gun - Will Travel" with the guys, the star's name was Paladin. He was the character and if you have not watched that show, it's only a half-an-hour, but they always had something to say and that's the thing I liked about "Have Gun - Will Travel."  There was some underlying lesson that was seemed to run through the show.  The and the Warner Brothers' western television shows were, there was always the good guy and so I wasn't a big time, big "Roy Rogers"," Hopalong Cassidy", and Lone Ranger. I liked "The Lone Ranger" some, but I thought, I didn't like the way Tonto was treated.  So, but, but it was always the good guys versus he bad guys and the good guys always seemed to wear white hats, I never got that, but except Paladin.  Paladin wore black and I thought that was really cool.  And then, but all the Warner Brothers' western shows "Cheyenne", "The Rifleman", "Cheyenne, The Rifleman" and what was the other one?  There was one other that I watched regularly, because I was a little kid so I watched that kind of stuff.  In the movies, well there were certain characters that went from movie to movie to movie and so I started out really liking James Bond movies.  

>> Oh, okay.

>> There was; there had not been anything like that. When the first James Bond movie out and I saw all of them.  I was a big James Bond fan, particularly with Sean Connery. I liked his play on James Bond.  I was never really too much into Roger Moore, because it's kind of hokey and at least James, at least Sean Connery James Bond movies kind of were serious. You know, he was cracking jokes too extreme if you will, so I liked that.  And, hum, that's what I remember.  If I talk about it longer I'll probably think of things, but you know, I liked James Bond movies.  Oh, I tell you one other movie I really liked that was really different but it was before, it was before I went to college.  Believe it or not, one of my all-time favorite movies is "Godzilla."

>> Oh.  Why?  Why?  

>> Why you say?  Well, the original "Godzilla" movie came out in the early, in the mid50s, maybe 55 or 56 and it was a black and white movie and the original "Godzilla" movie released in the U.S. had Raymond Burr in it if you remember that.  Okay, that was a, that was a, that version of "Godzilla" was not the right one. The original version of "Godzilla" did not have Raymond Burr in it.  Raymond Burr was put in the movie to appeal to the American audiences and, but the original "Godzilla" movie was really a, was an instruction on the horrors of nuclear war and that the use of nuclear weapons could not be implemented without nature taking its course to respond to that and "Godzilla" was that. And so, the original "Godzilla" movie has always been one of my favorites and that's one. The other is there had never been a monster in the movies like "Godzilla."  So, at the time I came up there had never been a giant dinosaur stomping around throwing people up.  So, I always thought that was cool.  Yeah, and so the Godzilla movies became kind of stupid after a while, you know, "Godzilla Versus Rodan" and then the butterfly monster and of that, but the, but the newer versions of Godzilla over the last 7 or 8 years, there have been several of them, they've been more interesting, but still the basic storyline.  So, that's something of a diversion for you.  

>> Right.  

>> I like Godzilla.  

>> I'll note that down. So, what were some of your particular interests at the time?  Did you like sports?  Football?  

>> I was a sports, I was a sports fan.  I was, I've never been a big sports participant.  I don't consider myself a frustrated athlete at all. The only sport that took in school that I really enjoyed was fencing.  

>> Oh, okay.  

>> So, I really liked that.  Although, I never tried to join the team.  I took 2 fencing classes and it was interesting and the, so but I did, I was a Penn Stater like everybody else. I went to the games, went to Beaver Stadium to the games.  I really liked gymnastics. That's when I really first started to pay attention to gymnastics is in undergrad school and, because we had a great gym team and the start of our gym team was one of the best NCAA gymnast in the country at the time.

>> Wow.  

>> His name was Steve Collin and he was amazing to see.  My other interests, I was always engaged with stuff. So, I was a member of various groups. I became active as an undergrad school; as an undergrad in school, I was active in Undergraduate Student Government. I was a member of the Faculty Senate Committee on Undergraduate Student Affairs.  I was active in the Interfraternity Council, the--what was the, what was the predecessor to the Black student unions which was called the Frederick Douglass Association.   I was one of the founding members of that. I was active in fraternity and it was kind of fun.  

^M00:40:45

Actually, not just kind of fun, it was fun.  The, in the late 60s when I was in school, really was a really different time. There was a convergence of several social phenomenon, social movements. The Anti-War Movement, Civil Rights Movement, the emergence of Flower Power and the Women's, Liberation Movement, all of those things were happening in the, began in the late 60s and there was a, there was what I would call a convergence of these movements were marked with an openness among people. People were more willing to know one another better.  There was an actual desire to know across lines, both social and racial, and that was really very different and something that I finally remember and fondly was involved with.  The, we had a, well my fraternity had; do you all still have; what do you all call fraternity parties?  You all call them Jammeys; what do you call them?

>> Frat parties.  

>> Frat parties.  Okay. Well, at the time this may sound childish, but at the time those kinds of parties were called Jammeys or something like that, sorry. Anyway, our fraternity had the first interracial fraternity party on campus and, and had it with DTB and we, my chapter, I'm a Kappa, Kappa Alpha Psi, my chapter really liked the guys from DTB. They were fools and we were fools too [brief laughter].  We had a great time and we had a, at that party we had what's called the Black and White, the Salt and Pepper Jam it was called, believe it or not. And I got, it made headlines. It was a big thing on campus. There was a big buildup to that.  The Daily Collegian did articles about it, you know, as it was building up and there used to be a rule in the Interfraternity Council that any social chairman and chapter president could go to any party given by a fraternity to check for fraternity. And that party had everyone on campus wanted to go to the party and it was a great one too.  I remember it vividly except when I don't [brief laughter].  I had periods of blank memory about that, but it was a lot of fun.  The, so fraternity life, a Greek-like, let me put it the way, Greek-like was more prominent in just about every community. The African-American community was no, was no exception to that. So, and it was a good thing.  It was a good thing by and large. There, I'll just say that.  

>> So, with the Black union club that were a founding member of in your fraternity, how did you feel about the Black Panther Party?  

>> The what?

>> The Black Panther Party?  

>> Oh, the Black Panther Party.  The Black Panther party was a rather, was rather removed. As I remember it, the Black Panther Party came a little later, right, the Black Panther Party was a 68 event, 68-69.  The Black Panthers began at the end of the 60s into the early 70s, and so the party was a reflection of the increasing, the increasing militancy of the Black Power Movement and the Panthers were sort of a expression of that.  The predecessors to the Panthers were the Muslims who were then being led by Elijah Muhammad and theirs was a; theirs was a program of separatism, Black separatism and I didn't agree with that. And plus it was strictly, it was caught up in all of these strict protocols of social interaction and so on both internally and externally. The Panthers were an important development in the Black Power Movement and the Black resistance and so I didn't oppose Panthers. And actually, the Panthers were not an affirmatively violent group. They were more of a self-defense kind of group and so they would bring weapons and so on, but they didn't go out to use weapons to attack people affirmatively.  If they were put upon, they were not afraid to respond, but the Panther Party began in what was a West Coast phenomenon initially and then it kind of moved east into Chicago and so on.  So, I thought they were okay. They got a, I thought they in many respects were vilified out of fear, because the White community was afraid of the Panthers and it was that fear which drove conflict. Not so much the Panthers were afraid of them, but they were afraid of the Panthers and fear drives a lot of negative emotions and negative social interactions   So, I was okay with the Panthers.  

>> Okay.  So, did you attend many anti-war Civil Rights, Women's Rights protests, or riots, or marches while you were at Penn State?

>> Yeah, there weren't really any riots. There were demonstrations at events and, yes, I did my share.  I was a founding, the group was called the Frederick Douglass Association and so we had a, we had a demonstration on campus that made headlines around the state. We went, we had a series of grievances that we wanted to express to the school. So, we went to what was then Eric Walker who was President of the college. We went to Eric Walker's office in Old Main that built the brick wall. 

>> Wow.

>> That was a very big deal. Alright, think about that for a minute.  There were maybe 50 Black students that went into Old Main carrying, each of us carried a brick, a brick and we went up to the, because Eric Walker's office I think was on the second floor of Old Main at the time, and we built this brick wall in front of his office.

>> Wow.

>> Demand, you know, as a symbol of the separation that we were feeling and disaffection that we were feeling from the school.  That made picture headlines around the state in all the newspapers.  And so, yeah I was there for that. We had some demonstrations on campus in front of Old Main with the anti-war movement, because everyone on campus was against the war because it was killing too many people. I lost two cousins.  I lost about a dozen people out of my high school class in Vietnam.  It was terrible.  The Women's Movement wasn't really there at the time. The Women's Movement kind of the Flower Power thing; the Women's Movement in my humble opinion, morphed into the; the Flower Power movement morphed into the Women's Movement.  

^M00:50:20

And so, the beginnings that the best basic period of the Flower Power movement was Woodstock in 67, and the whole hippie kind of thing, and so, I was not really in that, in the hippie movement.  And, although, I just, it's been so much, I sympathized with them.  I was willing to accept that.  I didn't fight against it.  They were, they had this, you know, this strange dress and so on.  It was, it was the Sgt. Pepper's album was sort of that behavior, sort of right at the beginning of that it sort of created a lot of the esthetic around the Flower Power movement.  So, yeah, I did my part.  I was out in it so to speak.  I was really more interested though really in, in seeking to improve things on campus by using the institutions of the campus.  That's why I was involved with the Interfraternity Council while I was engaged with the undergraduate, the senate committees on undergraduate student affair with the Faculty Senate Committee.  I was doing that.  I was a member of Skull and Bones and so on, so I was more interested in doing things that way. There, you know, demonstrations; well, demonstrations were important, but they weren't demonstrations that were riots.  We didn't have really any, not that I remember, not really riots.  We had crazy stuff that fall on campus that was really just sort of totally ignorant. It was fun though. It was just fun and ignorance.  We had one my, was that my fresh, I think it was my freshman year, yeah, I lived in East Halls at the time and, and there was this rumor that, you know, we were on the quarter system and spring quarter ended in June.

>> Oh, my.

>> And, of course, spring and then you had summer quarter and then the fall and then the winter, so you could graduate in 3 years by just not taking time off.  Anyway, at the end of the spring quarter, we were in June and there was this rampant rumor about Martians coming and taking everybody away [brief laughter].  It was really, it was totally stupid, right?  But, so much, it was so much fun and folks, and so we had it wasn't a riot, but we had, at the time, we had the curfew. So, all the women had to be inside in the dorm rooms and by 11 O'clock or something, 11 or 12, 10-11-12 O'clock something like that and on this particular night the Martians were supposed to come and so, and so there this huge crowd of guys that ran up to East Hall [inaudible] and they gathered in the area, the yard in the middle of East Halls and I ran outside with them and we just fooling around. It wasn't, it was a lot noise and a lot of hollering and the women were in the dorms throwing stuff out the [brief laughter].  It was totally ignorant, but so much fun.

>> Right. Right.  Did you meet your wife at Penn State?

>> No.  No, I met my first wife in law school.  

>> Okay.  

>> And no, so although I had a couple of enjoyable love interests during undergrad school, no I did not meet my wife at the college.

>> Okay. I have one more question for you and it is, what is one suggestion that you would offer to current students at Penn State?

^M00:55:03 ^M00:55:14  

>> I guess I would say, be more willing; be more willing to; be more willing to engage with other people.  Be more willing to listen.  Be more willing to participate. Be more willing to accept that people are different without demonizing them.  Be more willing to listen truly to different points of view and that's for everybody. That's just not for one group or another group, but just be more willing to, to not, and being more willing is a counterpoint to retrieving to a corner of certitude. Don't be so certain about things.  There is the, and being willing is a way to defeat certitude in one's perspective, in one's outlook, and in one's demeanor.  I would say that, "be more willing."   

>> Wow.  You made me cry.  

>> What?  I made you cry?

>> Well, so that's unfortunately all the time that I have to speak with you, but thank you so much for sharing with me. That was very, I will remember this forever.  

>> Oh, I'm happy, I was happy to share it with you. How do you plan to use this?

>> I've been recording it on my phone this whole time.  

>> Oh, knew you had.  I knew you had been recording that's why I asked, what are you going to do with it?

>> Oh, it's a, I just, I have to submit it to the class and then I have to do a 5-page outline of what we talked about basically, but I'm going to, I'm going keep it.  

>> Yeah, well if you have a message to deliver to your class, deliver that last one. 

>> Of course.  Of course.  I'll deliver that to everyone I see not just my class.  

>> Very good. Alright, Lily my best to you. Good luck.

>> Thank you.

>> You're a freshman, did I hear that right? You're a freshman?

>> I am a freshman.  

>> Oh, well I hope to connect, are you in the; what college are you in?

>> I'm in communications, College of Communications.  

>> College of Communication.  I'm active in the College of Liberal Arts and the Liberal Arts Alumni Society.  If there is an occasion that to interact more, please use some of that, because I'm a mentor in the College of Liberal Arts. So, you never know how people, how you have people come across you, yeah.

>> Right. Of course. Thank you so much. >> Okay?  

>> Again.

>> Alright.  Good luck to you.

>> You too. 

>> Take care.

>> You too. 

>> Bye-bye.

>> Bye.

>> Bye-bye.  

^E00:58:25    

[00:00:01]

>> Okay so I'm going to start with just a few basic questions.  First, can you please state your first and last name?  

[00:00:09]
>> Gail Ward.  

[00:00:11]
>> Thank you, Mrs. Ward and my name is Carly Hart.  Just a reminder that this interview will be recorded and it should take about 45 minutes to an hour.  

[00:00:21]
>> I understand.  

[00:00:25]
>> Okay so first what years did you attend Penn State and what was your major?  

[00:00:30]
>> I was at Penn State from 1968 to 1970 and then again, I went back to grad school and got my Masters in 1974.  

[00:00:44]
>> Okay awesome.  And I understand that you transferred from another school could you explain that?  

[00:00:50]
>> That's correct, I transferred from a small liberal arts college in Meadville, Pennsylvania.  I went to the first two years, freshman and sophomore years there, and transferred as a junior to Penn State in 68.  

[00:01:08]
>> Okay and why did you choose Penn State?  

[00:01:14]
>> Well I should've chosen it initially actually because I came from a large high school and then going to a smaller liberal arts very elite college was not a good fit for me.  I was much more interested in all the opportunities available at Penn State, although I did well at the small liberal arts school I really wasn't finding what I wanted.  In other words, the peer group was not diversified at all.  And when I went to Penn State you know 30,000 people and unlimited opportunities to study whatever I wanted and do, you know, whatever kind of extracurricular activities that I could imagine were there.  

[00:02:06]
>> So with your major focusing on liberal arts do you think Penn State was a great fit for that?  

[00:02:15]
>> Fantastic yes, I was an English major in liberal arts and I thought it was wonderful.  

[00:02:21]
>> Awesome, that's good to hear I'm an English minor so I love it.  

[00:02:26]
>> Yeah.  

[00:02:26]
>> So far.  

[00:02:28]
>> Yeah, great.  

[00:02:29]
>> Perfect.  Okay so my next question for you would be what type of music did you like?  

[00:02:38]
>> Classical choral music primarily, I like jazz now but at the time I was a singer, I played piano and it was primarily classical.  So I did join the concert choir at Penn State which got me to Europe and the Middle East in the summer of 69.  So I would go to concerts, I symphony music, I was active in that and I still am.  

[00:03:11]
>> Yeah.  Was this popular for students your age?  

[00:03:16]
>> I would say not so much.  The 60's of course were in rock 'n roll and it was a marvelous time for the different kinds of exploration of music.  And I like that too, if I were going to a party, I mean I loved Simon and Garfunkel I got to see them in person.  It was such a decade of change and I embraced that also.  But it was not really what I pursued in terms of my musical interests.  

[00:03:50]
>> You mentioned how that brought you to your trip to Europe and the Middle East.  

[00:03:59]
>> Yeah.  

[00:04:00]
>> Yeah.  While you were there could you describe some of the major differences that you noticed in culture and anything regarding that while traveling compared to the United States?  

[00:04:14]
>> Oh yeah, it was a game changer.  I mean I'm 21 years old I'd never really been out of the United States except for Canada.  And then to be able to travel with 60 people in a choir that was internationally renowned and stay in people's homes and see the different way of life.  It was fantastic Europe, not just England and Germany and Italy, Israel, Greece, countries and this was right after the 1967 war in Israel.  To see how people lived in a war-torn country was, that was new for me.  We visited at Kibbutz, we saw -- it just changed my mind for the rest of the way that America is not the only civilization on earth.  Because when you're 21 you think that everything revolves around you and boy that was a blast upside my head that it doesn't.  
[00:05:20]
I mean there are other ways of life and then in 1969 when the first man walked on the moon I was in Delphi, Greece.  I love to tell this story, people say well where were you in 1969 when man walked on the moon.  I was in Delphi, Greece we had just sang at the Oracle of Delphi and people look at me like what.  You know that it was mind-blowing and everything, it was not confined to the earth it was everywhere, the possibilities were limitless.  I would say that it changed me for the rest of my life travel did.  

[00:06:05]
>> Yeah, that's amazing.  I hope to one day get that opportunity I'd love to travel abroad, especially.  

[00:06:12]
>> It's fabulous.  

[00:06:13]
>> Yeah.  Yeah, so many opportunities.  

[00:06:16]
>> Fabulous.  

[00:06:16]
>> It is.  

[00:06:18]
>> Yeah.  Do it while you're young too and you can do it on the cheap you know sleeping in trains and stuff like that because when you get older you know I'm fast forwarding 50 years now and it's tough.  I'm planning a trip just to DC on Thursday with a friend of mine and just the walking that's involved with that is like oh my can I do this.  But yes, I can.  

[00:06:45]
>> Yeah, exactly and people make excuses saying they don't have enough time and that sort of thing.  But I think you're right, I think people should travel while they're young and experience.  

[00:06:56]
>> Oh absolutely and it broadens your mind.  I think a lot of the divisions that we see in the world today.  I'm taking a German course now on the history of the Wymore Republic which led to Hitler's rise to power.  You see the nationalism and the things like ours is the only way, no it's not, no it's not folks.  There are other very, very progressive civilized countries out there with people who all have the same ideas.  They love their family, they want to breathe clean air, they want to live a full life.  And we're all pretty much the same so you can see where I'm coming from.  

[00:07:44]
>> Yeah.  Yes, exactly.  So while you were traveling abroad you mentioned how you got a new perspective, you got to see kind of what it's like to be in a war-torn country and you even.  

[00:07:58]
>> Yes.  

[00:07:59]
>> You even witnessed the first man walking on the moon while you were Greece, what was that like?  Could you elaborate on how people reacted in Greece?  

[00:08:09]
>> Well not very, not as much as I thought they would.  First of all there weren't very many televisions where we were, so the news didn't travel the way it did today.  You know 50 years ago or 49 it was more word-of-mouth in small village and Delphi at the time was quite small.  How did people react, well I can tell you how we reacted we had a party because we thought this was the coolest thing let's do this.  But it was different, I think that because of the communications of vastly different state of you know how word traveled then it was not as dramatic there as probably it was at the time in the States.  There were still people with you know sheep and you know ringing bells to call them in when we were there.  So it was different, it was different.  
[00:09:11]
I think there would have been more hoopla in the States than there was where we were.  

[00:09:15]
>> Yes.  Yeah, for sure.  So how did you obtain most of your news and where did you get it in the United States compared to when you were traveling abroad?  

[00:09:28]
>> Well that's very interesting.  Back then of course the internet really wasn't around in in the 60's so we got news from newspapers, from the radio, and from the television.  And it was pretty much like Walter Cronkite reading the news as opposed to interpreting it.  CNN and NPR and Fox News and all the ones that give their perspective on stuff they weren't there.  So when we were on campus, we'd get news from the Daily Collegian, by word-of-mouth that was big you know because your peer group is all-knowing at the time, and the radio.  I would say that when we were in Europe it was pretty much a bubble.  I was fluent in French at the time so if I could see you know a newspaper Le Monde or something, I could pick it up and understand what was going on.  
[00:10:33]
But it was it very different, we depended on our trip counselors to tell us if you know it's not safe for us to go into the Gaza Strip today.  And it was an acceptance that okay it's not safe for us to go there.  I mean there were live mines still throughout Israel at the time left over from the 69 war.  And we heard and saw what we thought were fireworks over the Sea of Galilee across the way, it was actually explosives, they were bombing across the Sea of Galilee.  

[00:11:16]
>> Wow.  

[00:11:17]
>> You know and there we are getting ready for a concert tomorrow and you know naivete at 21 being what it is we thought oh there's fireworks here, it wasn't fireworks we heard bombs.  

[00:11:30]
>> Wow.  

[00:11:30]
>> You know so it was, when we found that out and you know our trip director said hey you got to lie low folks, you got to cool it out you know it was amazing.  And people boarded our buses to check our passports and they had machine guns and all the rest of that stuff so it was a serious thing.  So the news was very up and real, you'd see the bombs, you'd hear the you know fighting and it was very real.  

[00:12:04]
>> Wow.  Yeah, I could only imagine what that would be like today.  You know thinking you saw fireworks when in reality they were bombs, that's incredible.  

[00:12:14]
>> Yeah, yeah.  

[00:12:16]
>> Yeah, I mean I would say today like my news source on campus would also be word-of-mouth so it's interesting to see how that's always been you know one of the primary sources of where you get your information, which is both good and bad.  But yeah, we still.  

[00:12:32]
>> Yeah because it can be twisted.  

[00:12:35]
>> Yeah.  We still have the Daily Collegian and other newspapers like that still too.  

[00:12:41]
>> Yeah.  

[00:12:42]
>> Yeah.  Okay so my next question would be with so much occurring in the late 1960's, such as the first nude photos and student protests or the presidential election of 68.  What were your particular interests at the time?  

[00:13:01]
>> Well I was very interested in equality, civil rights, women's rights.  I was born on the cusp of women just you know let's go to college, getting married, a man to marry and then you get your MRS degree and you're settled.  That's not what I was about and it was pretty dramatically different for that time.  Hey you know I think I said I'd rather be the doctor as opposed to marry a doctor.  So I was very much interested in equality for all.  Now at the time that did not include LGBTQ, that was not an issue.  I think back of what I was thinking of at the time and it just wasn't on my radar screen.  Although if it had been, I would have been very interested in that too.  But I was interested in environmental issues, I was -- the first Earth Day was April 1970 and I remember they had just passed, I believe it was Nixon who had just passed the you know Environmental Protection Agency creation.  
[00:14:20]
And all these things to acknowledge that this is our planet and we must keep it clean because this is the air we breathe and the water that we drink.  And this is all we have folks even though we've gone to the moon it's right here is where it's happening.  So I was very active in that.  

[00:14:39]
>> What would you say were your main motivations for being very active with these interests?  

[00:14:47]
>> Well primarily it's the exuberance and the helpfulness of youth that we could do a better way.  You know I was very much against the war in Vietnam also.  Kids that I was going to school with that were drafted to Vietnam in 1969 and didn't come back, they were killed for a war that we still don't understand what the reasons were for it.  And did we win?  No, nobody won.  And my personal opinion is that nobody ever wins in a war but that's how I view things.  But I was in the summer of 68, I worked for the US Army Military Intelligence Group in a summer job and one of my duties was to send these young kids to war, I processed their orders.  
[00:15:49]
And I look back on that and I think how could I have done that.  Well again, it's just I didn't know, I needed money for college, I'm doing this and I didn't know what it all meant.  But once I did find out about that I was active in antiwar protests, protests from the standpoint I always believe in doing something positive.  Like I got through my sorority a group of people to write to guys who were stationed in Vietnam and had nobody to write, you know communicate with.  So we had like penpals.  

[00:16:28]
>> Yeah.  

[00:16:28]
>> It sounds ridiculous but I had dated a guy, in that summer I met a guy and he ended up going to Vietnam and getting all screwed up.  

[00:16:40]
>> Oh wow.  

[00:16:41]
>> So it was a cause that was very dear to me and I look back on some of the -- I wish I had saved the letters because they were powerful, powerful and then they'd come.  

[00:16:52]
>> Sorry, sorry.  

[00:16:53]
>> I'm sorry what?  

[00:16:54]
>> I was going to ask.  

[00:16:55]
>> I was going to say.  

[00:16:57]
>> I was going to ask if you would say you were personally affected by the war then since you had?  

[00:17:02]
>> Yes.  

[00:17:02]
>> That association?  

[00:17:04]
>> Yes, absolutely.  I was practically engaged to this guy who went over there and when he came back with a ring and all this kind of stuff and his mind was gone.  I mean he definitely suffered from PTSD and I broke it off because I didn't think that I could spend my life with somebody who was not mentally stable.  And that was tough, that was a tough, tough decision.  And to see so many, it continues to this day.  PTSD they estimate that probably 40% of the men and women who fight in these wars come back with serious mental issues PTSD.  

[00:17:54]
>> Yeah, yeah wow.  And this all happened while you were in college?  

[00:17:59]
>> Oh yeah, yeah.  Those were the big days Vietnam.  Yeah, those were the big killing years under Johnson and it did him in.  President Johnson who in my opinion started a lot of these wonderful human compassionate let's get some things together here for, you know, like the people who really suffer.  Because Johnson I just been down to San Antonio and saw the Texas White House down there and understood a little bit more about well where LBJ came from.  And you know the Vietnam War just killed him, it really did.  He died very shortly after he left office, he didn't run for the second term.  And it was pretty hard for him, I mean he wasn't a perfect man by any means he was crude and rough and everything but he really had I believe the good ideals of this country in the forefront of his mind and he fought for them.  
[00:19:10]
Not in the war though, that was not good.  

[00:19:15]
>> So going back to your activism and workings with that would you say that you were an outlier at Penn State or did many people agree with you and were on the same page as you?  

[00:19:32]
>> I would say with 30,000 people you could always find folks that were of your same mind.  I would say also, first of all I was a student and I was a very good student.  I was able to graduate summa cum laude and did really well.  So my studies always came first, I wasn't hanging around you know holding a protest sign when there was a final the next day.  I didn't do that, many of my friends did but I did not I was always let's get this down first because that's what I'm here for.  But I had a group of people.  Was I an outlier, I would say that I was probably in a small majority because we were hit with everything back in the 60's?  I mean there so many issues and let's not forget the drug culture that was around at that time, that's a touchy thing.  
[00:20:34]
I had friends that are no longer here because of their experimentation with drugs.  I didn't go that route but it was a route that many chose to experiment with, dangerous, dangerous.  We did not know what all this stuff was.  

[00:20:52]
>> Wow.  Yeah, I mean going back to what you said earlier many of the protests and groups, activist groups back then can be related to groups nowadays such as like the LGBTQ community and.  

[00:21:07]
>> Yeah.  

[00:21:07]
>> Those protests and you know the different women's rights protests that we have today as well.  I can see how being an outlier can also mean being a part of the large group of people who also believe the same thing, especially in a college community.  

[00:21:23]
>> Yes.  Yeah, it's easier to be advocating for change in a turbulent period when you are among your peers and particularly young people.  It's a lot harder down here in Florida.  We retired about three years ago and moved to Florida and we're in a place where people just want to hang around and have fun after years of working.  

[00:21:54]
>> Yeah.  

[00:21:54]
>> I'm not there, I am still involved in church groups, and I was even carrying a sign on a women's march and stuff.  I might not walk the bridge now but I'll be hanging around and telling people about what I feel.  Because these issues are still there today, they're not resolved and, in many ways, I think we're going backwards and it hurts me.  

[00:22:27]
>> Yeah, yeah.  Okay my next question would be what was Greek life like at Penn State and did it shape any of your views?  

[00:22:38]
>> Well it was very active and in the 60's, I pledged sorority as soon as I got there in my junior year because I transferred in.  And for the guys particularly where they could you know have a house and live off campus it was a main focus of social life.  For women not so much, we were still in the dorms although we had our own floors.  I was in East Hall, Bigler I think it was.  It's amazing how 50 years later I remember the names of this stuff wow.  I can't remember my own name sometimes.  But we were involved with that, it was like a small community within this large group.  And I think that's all we are in life are small communities within the large masses, we make our own friends and sort of stick to them in a way because they're our family.  
[00:23:40]
With everybody separated so much anymore our friends become our family.  So we had that and you know there was Greek life to the sense of stuffing chicken wire for the floats and everything, I wasn't into that.  There were other things that I did firmly believe in that was like let's get together a letter writing campaign for the guys in Vietnam I you know would be behind something like that.  And I would go to the parties that not so much as a sorority person but just as a way to get out and to meet people.  But it was a lot more important then than it is now as I understand from talking to my granddaughter with whom I'm very close, she's at Pitt now and she's not at all interested in pledging a sorority you know.  

[00:24:40]
>> Yeah.  So would you say in 1968 it was more of a way to get involved with like activism and different opportunities than it is today?  

[00:24:56]
>> I don't know that I'd say that, I think it was still purely social in many ways.  The fact that I was involved with it was there goes the outlier Gail.  It was more like you know what kind of float are we going to have for homecoming, what are you going to wear and make sure you wear your scarf and or tie for this particular rush thing.  It was pretty much a social thing and can I say a lot of drinking.  

[00:25:29]
>> Yes.  

[00:25:30]
>> It was there, it was -- you think it's a problem today, man it was a problem back in the 60's.  

[00:25:36]
>> Yeah.  Okay moving on, regarding the Kent State shootings did the closing of the university affect you in any way?  

[00:25:49]
>> Absolutely, absolutely.  Years of drama, I was a senior at Penn State in 70, I had student taught for about three weeks in the winter because it was a trimester and I dropped out of student teaching because I knew I didn't want to do this and we might as well stop this right now.  I was pretty headstrong, in retrospect I should have never done that, I should have continued with it but no I'm going to show I don't want to do this so I dropped out of the university.  

[00:26:33]
>> Okay.  

[00:26:34]
>> And then I had applied for readmission in commencement the same time, so I took correspondence courses and I had an overload of classes that spring semester so I could graduate on time.  Well when they closed the university after five weeks, I was like you're kidding me, I have all this work I have to do, I want to pull the straight A's so that I can be Dean's list and summa cum laude and I'm not going home, I'm going to stay here.  And they offered, of course everybody was afraid that it was going to be at Penn State as well as Kent State and it was scary times.  But I stayed, I did extra credits for a lot of my classes and I went to lectures that dealt with the war, that dealt with the upset of what was going on in the country.  And it was very interesting because there was one professor I remember he was an English professor, not mine but he had come back from the war really changed, and he would tell us about his experiences.  
[00:27:51]
So I would try to go to his lectures, as well as finishing up my other classes so that I could graduate on time.  So it definitely affected me.  

[00:28:02]
>> Wow.  

[00:28:02]
>> And I didn't really know what was going to happen in the world.  I didn't know if I was going to graduate.  I didn't know if the world was going to be there.  But I'll tell you something that's interesting, the major corporations interviewed on campus at that time for liberal arts majors, they wanted to recruit them.  It's like you know I didn't have to go anywhere to look for a job, AT&T for instance, big you know a blue-chip company came onto campus, interviewed me and I had a job before I even graduated.  

[00:28:41]
>> Wow.  

[00:28:41]
>> And I tell the grandkids now you better have some science and some practical stuff in your background because there's no job opportunities for poets.  But that really wasn't true back in the late 60's and 70, I was recruited for a job in New York City.  And I tell people that now and it's like what, they came on campus.  Yes, they did.  So it was different.  

[00:29:14]
>> Yeah.  Did you have any like concrete direction you wanted to go in with liberal arts?  

[00:29:23]
>> Oh gosh Carly, I backed into most good jobs that I had in my life.  Was I unfocused, not really but I was let's say I wanted to explore, I wanted to try and I really had no fear even though there was so much drama and turbulence?  I was convinced that I could succeed at anything that I did.  And I made a lot of foolish mistakes because of that kind of mindset.  And I was never really, like when I got the job at AT&T my parents oh, you're set for life now, you're going to go off to New York, you're going to do all this stuff.  Uh-uh I went back to grad school in a couple years.  You know it was like the trajectory in terms of economic, leading to economic stability was never there.  But there were reasons for all of that.  
[00:30:25]
Like I was trying, you won't believe this one, I was trying to get a house, buy a house when I was in the New York area.  I was young, I was making a lot of money I thought okay we'll invest in something.  And I had a real estate agent actually tell me well you're a pretty young girl why don't you get some guy to buy you a house.  

[00:30:49]
>> Oh wow,  

[00:30:50]
>> That was in 1972 and I just looked at him and I thought what you know.  But also that's the way it was.  

[00:31:06]
>> Yeah.  

[00:31:07]
>> So it's hard to imagine 50 years later that you would have that kind of you know actual roadblock set up against you but things like that would you know I had my limits on how far I was going to go.  And I thought well I guess I can't buy a house here you know, isn't that strange and sad?  

[00:31:33]
>> Did you have a boyfriend or a husband at the time?  

[00:31:38]
>> No, I did not marry until I was 37.  

[00:31:43]
>> Okay.  

[00:31:43]
>> Which is quite late by the standards and probably quite late now.  I was always career oriented yes but more in terms of I didn't want to be tied down.  If I got a job in another place, I wanted to be able to go there.  So I was more like the kids today than I was back in you know 50 years ago and I was definitely an outlier in that regard.  I mean I bought my first house on my own when there were 18% interest rates and you know I just did those kinds of things that were really not that common back in the 70's and 80's.  

[00:32:36]
>> Okay and then this leads me to one of my final questions.  Going back to your studies at Penn State, was there one particular course or professor that made a lasting impression on you?  

[00:32:53]
>> Well actually I would say there were many but in terms of yeah, this particular person changed my life or whatever.  But I remember the moment of gentleness, I had a professor for Wordsworth and Coleridge and he was reading about the daffodil program or daffodil poem.  And in those days one of the halls was not air-conditioned and the windows were open, it was a beautiful day and a butterfly flew in to the room, and he very gently escorted it out.  And I thought that's the kind of person that I want to be, someone who is not just reading the poem of gentleness but living that particular way of life.  

[00:33:58]
>> Wow.  

[00:33:58]
>> And that stuck with me ever since and there were moments along that way where I would see the beauty in life contrasted with a lot of this junk that was going on and things that I thought needed to be changed.  So there were many, there were many moments like that.  

[00:34:24]
>> Yeah, I could see how that could be inspiring and how that can last with you reading a poem and happening, that's pretty incredible.  

[00:34:32]
>> Yeah, I don't forget things like that.  

[00:34:35]
>> Yeah, yeah and that kind of does sum up you know from what I'm hearing like your train of thought and you know thinking about peace and wanting to live in a peaceful world.  

[00:34:49]
>> Yes.  

[00:34:49]
>> So that does go along with that poem that's really cool.  

[00:34:55]
>> Yeah.  

[00:34:55]
>> Okay and then what is one suggestion that you would offer to a current Penn State student?  

[00:35:04]
>> Oh one suggestion.  

[00:35:07]
>> Or more.  

[00:35:08]
>> Well I am very close to my granddaughter now so I talk to her most days and she's a sophomore at Pitt like I said and I always say honey have fun.  That in the midst yes, I want you to do well and she is doing well and she's in pre-med and she's studying and she has three jobs and all this kind of stuff.  And I say all of those things are good but these are years to enjoy, to explore different things, the world doesn't end if you flunk a course.  

[00:35:45]
>> Yeah.  

[00:35:46]
>> You will go on.  If you try something new and you fail at you learn from it.  I was always afraid of failure, I was very serious and I thought oh I have to do this, I have to come back from that and like the principles that I held up to.  Man I should have lightened up.  

[00:36:10]
>> Those are some.  

[00:36:14]
>> But you can't say that to everybody or else they might all flunk out.  

[00:36:21]
>> Yeah, you know [inaudible].  

[00:36:22]
>> Laughter goes a long way.  

[00:36:24]
>> Yes, I'm very similar in that way, I have a lot of.  

[00:36:28]
>> Are you?  

[00:36:29]
>> A lot of high goals and I'm also afraid of failure but I do think having fun is most important.  And my parents say the same too.  

[00:36:37]
>> It is.  

[00:36:37]
>> Too they want me to have a good college experience while also getting a good education, that's always good.  

[00:36:45]
>> Exactly and the two are not mutually exclusive at all as long as you stay away from the big.  Like you don't want to flunk out of college.  You don't want to get you know some kind of horrible life-threatening disease that you're going to carry for the rest of your life.  You don't want to do things that are going to really mess you up for the future but also want to explore.  Like I remember getting in a VW van and driving one afternoon to Philadelphia because we wanted some Haagen-Dazs ice cream.  

[00:37:23]
>> Yes.  

[00:37:24]
>> You know like how goofy is that.  Oh, it was fun, it was wonderful.  We went to the art museums, we came back and you know it was fun.  I remember those moments, I wish there were more of them.  

[00:37:38]
>> Yeah.  Yeah, sometimes you just got to get away and get some ice cream.  

[00:37:44]
>> Yeah.  

[00:37:44]
>> Definitely.  

[00:37:46]
>> Absolutely.  

[00:37:47]
>> All right Mrs. Ward well our time is almost up, is there anything you would like to.  

[00:37:52]
>> Okay.  

[00:37:52]
>> Discuss briefly before we close the interview?  

[00:37:56]
>> I would just like to ask a question, is this what you were looking for?  I rambled on.  

[00:38:01]
>> Oh yeah, yeah not a problem, it's whatever you want to talk about.  

[00:38:06]
>> Isn't that great, I appreciate this, I really do.  Because I think sometimes you know we can learn from everybody, I learn from my granddaughters all the time.  And now you know that somebody wants to hear my perspective, we all want to be heard, we all want to be you know matter.  Is there any way that I'm going to be able to see what the final product is on this oral history that you're all compiling?  

[00:38:34]
>> Yes, yes.  So following this interview I'll definitely contact you, I'll send you the writeup of it and the recorded interview so you can look back on that.  And I'll definitely send you more information on what this whole course is about and.  

[00:38:53]
>> Yeah, I would really appreciate that and what's it going to lead to ultimately Carly?  

[00:38:59]
>> Well the course, it's a single course itself it's called 1968, it's a history course here and it's one of the honors courses.  And there's a website that actually has a lot of information just like little things, like it has like the Daily Collegian copies from 1968 and different.  

[00:39:21]
>> Oh cool.  

[00:39:21]
>> Information on alumni.  And basically, we put together like a huge timeline of events, everyone does an oral history such as this one.  And it's yeah, it's basically one giant project with a bunch of people working on it together.  So it's all on the website that I will send you.  

[00:39:42]
>> What is the website, can you give it -- oh you'll send it to me?  

[00:39:45]
>> I will send it to you but it is, let me see if I can find it.  It is 1968.psu.edu.  

[00:40:00]
>> 1968.psu.edu.  

[00:40:03]
>> Yeah and it has.  

[00:40:05]
>> Do I need any kind of password or is it open to anybody?  

[00:40:10]
>> I'm pretty sure it's open to everybody but you might.  

[00:40:14]
>> Okay.  

[00:40:14]
>> Type password I'm not positive.  

[00:40:17]
>> Okay.  

[00:40:18]
>> I can definitely send more information on everything your way.  

[00:40:23]
>> I'd be interested, I really would.  I found this to be very interesting and you are a very good interviewer.  

[00:40:32]
>> Thank you.  

[00:40:32]
>> And I hope that I helped you in your course and maybe gave you some things to think about.  

[00:40:40]
>> Yes, for sure I really enjoyed this, I gained a lot of insight and lots of great advice too.  I really enjoyed talking with you.  

[00:40:51]
>> You know I just love young kids, I absolutely -- well you're not that you're a young kid but you know you keep me young.  Like my granddaughters always telling me things it's just grandma you know you don't want to, well this is recorded so I can't say too much.  But she'll tell me the expressions of the day and stuff and I'll think okay I'm going to remember that one.  Very good okay.  

[00:41:16]
>> Well thank you so much again and I will keep you posted and updated on everything that I gather from this.  

[00:41:23]
>> Thank you, Carly and may you ace the course.  

[00:41:26]
>> Thank you, have a great day.  

[00:41:29]
>> You do the same, bye-bye now.  

[00:41:31]
>> Bye.  

[00:00:00]
>> Okay, so, first question, what years did you attend Penn State?  

[00:00:05]
>> I -- from 1954 to 1958.  The first year, I went to Behrend in Erie, because I'm from Erie, but the other three years, on the main campus.  

[00:00:18]
>> Main campus?  So why did you choose Penn State?  What was the driving force?  

[00:00:23]
>> A state university.  

[00:00:24]
>> Yeah?  Was it cheaper than the other options or something?  

[00:00:27]
>> Mainly, I had a sister at Cornell at the time.  

[00:00:30]
>> That's impressive.  

[00:00:31]
>> No, she was in home ec, which is their equivalent to a state, but...  

[00:00:36]
>> Yeah, so what did you major in?  

[00:00:38]
>> Electrical engineering.  

[00:00:39]
>> Electrical engineering, yeah, that's definitely a popular one today, too.  

[00:00:43]
>> Yes, and it's entirely different today.  

[00:00:45]
>> Yeah, I imagine there's a lot of change.  So, was there a particular course or professor that had an impact on you?  

[00:00:56]
>> You know, I can't name one, but there was a Professor Metzler, who, his electromagnetic waves, which I liked a lot.  

[00:01:06]
>> Yeah, that's interesting, because I've got -- I'm a freshman, and I've always been wondering like what professors -- because a lot of times, a professor like changed your life, or something.  

[00:01:18]
>> Nah, I can't really say that.  

[00:01:19]
>> Yeah, I have experienced that yet, but interesting to see.  

[00:01:22]
>> That was considered one of the most difficult courses at the time.  

[00:01:26]
>> The electro...  

[00:01:28]
>> And he made it pretty easy, I thought.  

[00:01:31]
>> Yeah, that's good.  So now we're going to transition to some sort of stuff outside of academics.  So, what kind of music that you listen to, both in the 50s and the 60s?  

[00:01:41]
>> Well, you were just getting into the Elvis-type area, beginning of that type -- that boom, and back more -- it was more of the Frank Sinatra style.  

[00:01:53]
>> Yeah, my grandfather is like a --  

[00:01:54]
>> The crooners.  

[00:01:55]
>> Yeah, big Sinatra fan.  I have a granddaughter who sophomore.  So, I probably do your grandfather's age or even older.  

[00:02:05]
>> So, did you listen to the Beatles at all?  

[00:02:09]
>> Yeah, when they first came on.  I remember seeing them on the Ed Sullivan show.  

[00:02:14]
>> Yeah, okay.  

[00:02:15]
>> Made their first debut.  

[00:02:16]
>> Did you watch that live or just like afterwards?  

[00:02:20]
>> On television, but when it was on another time.  

[00:02:23]
>> That's a big -- like a big historical moment for the 60s usually.  

[00:02:27]
>> Yeah.  

[00:02:27]
>> Looking back, I always wonder like what moment that would be now for us.  So, did you ever listen to like counterculture music or like revolutionary stuff?  

[00:02:37]
>> No, no, I can't say that I did.  

[00:02:39]
>> Did you have friends at the time that listened to that?  

[00:02:41]
>> Not at the time, no.  

[00:02:42]
>> Were you like older than that demographic usually?  

[00:02:46]
>> Yes.  Yeah, yeah, definitely.  

[00:02:48]
>> What did you think of that music?  Did you think it was like, ah, it's crap?  

[00:02:52]
>> Yes.  I didn't care for it.  

[00:02:55]
>> Pretty much, I actually feel the same way about a lot of modern music.  So, yeah, I can see where you're coming from.  So how did you obtain news?  Like did you read newspapers, TV, mixture?  

[00:03:05]
>> It was mainly newspapers.  When I was here, we watched very little television.  So, it was mainly newspapers.  Daily Collegian was as much as anything while I was a student.  

[00:03:18]
>> That's interesting, because today, it doesn't get read very much.  There's a lot of social media people get their news from and stuff.  

[00:03:25]
>> I don't understand that.  Still get a newspaper, although I think the CDT is --  

[00:03:31]
>> There's a lot of consensus on that.  I see what you're saying.  So, did you like go to the New York Times, Washington Post, or...  

[00:03:41]
>> Not much.  No.  

[00:03:42]
>> No?  

[00:03:43]
>> No.  

[00:03:44]
>> So, what were your particular interests in '68?  You said in '68, you had already had a family.  You were pretty much in your career.  

[00:03:51]
>> Yeah, and I have to confess, Vietnam was going on.  In some ways, it was in the background for me.  

[00:03:59]
>> Yeah.  

[00:04:00]
>> I do have a brother-in-law who spent two tours in Vietnam flying helicopters.  

[00:04:06]
>> Yeah, was there -- because we talked a lot about in class.  There was a lot of resentment for military veterans and military families, because they kind of saw them as a representation of the war.  Did you, I mean, did you ever come in contact with that?  

[00:04:22]
>> No, I can't say that I did at that time.  

[00:04:24]
>> Did you feel that the general public was pretty supportive or...  

[00:04:28]
>> At that time, we still were in an era where we trusted the government.  

[00:04:33]
>> Yeah.  

[00:04:33]
>> And we didn't question too much.  A lot of us in my era being in Vietnam.  One fellow I worked with did, but he was about the only one.  

[00:04:45]
>> How did you view -- I don't know how much you know about it, the Democratic National Convention and '68 with the protests?  

[00:04:55]
>> That was a disgrace.  

[00:04:56]
>> Yeah, is that how -- was that pretty much the consensus?  

[00:04:58]
>> Well, yeah.  There was a lot of anti-war people that were --  

[00:05:03]
>> Yeah.  >  

[00:05:04]
>> But the disgrace was Mayor Daley sending in the Chicago police to break them up.  So, yeah, that was pretty violent, and those things are far worse than what we're seeing today.  

[00:05:19]
>> Yeah, I think so.  So, were you interested in all in -- you said Vietnam was kind of the -- behind, in the back of your mind.  Were you interested in any sort of new stories going on at the time?  Do you remember like any big events, like the convention?  

[00:05:36]
>> Oh, there were so many big events in 1968.  Yeah, I can remember when Martin Luther King got shot.  I remember the riots afterwards.  I had an occasion to go to Washington after the riots, and I was astounded, because there were military troops patrolling the streets with machine guns, and I had never seen or imagined anything like that.  

[00:06:05]
>> So, you say you went to see Washington to see that or you just --  

[00:06:08]
>> No, I went to a meeting.  I was going to a meeting in Washington that took me there.  

[00:06:12]
>> Do you remember like where you were when you heard MLK, that he had died, or...  

[00:06:19]
>> I was probably at home for that.  I remember when JF -- or when Robert Kennedy was assassinated, going in the kitchen in the morning and turning on the radio and hearing that.  

[00:06:32]
>> What was the -- how to the public respond to Kennedy versus MLK dying?  Was there a difference?  Was there like...  

[00:06:40]
>> Well, there was, in a sense, because Martin Luther King was more racial.  

[00:06:47]
>> Yeah, more controversial, maybe?  

[00:06:48]
>> Yeah, and Robert Kennedy was kind of on the heels of his brother, JFK.  So, there was a lot of -- and I don't know if you -- one of his bodyguards, essentially, was Rosie Grier, who was a tackle for Penn State when I first came --  

[00:07:10]
>> Really?  

[00:07:11]
>> -- to Penn State.  

[00:07:11]
>> Did you know about that at the time, or did you find out afterwards?  

[00:07:14]
>> It was said at the time.  

[00:07:16]
>> Wow, that's --  

[00:07:17]
>> I'm not sure if bodyguard is the right word, but he was backing him, and he was there.  

[00:07:22]
>> Wow, so, Penn State's got a lot of connections.  

[00:07:25]
>> Yeah.  

[00:07:26]
>> So, would you --  

[00:07:27]
>> They've been part of the -- I've forgotten what they called it, but the Los Angles Rams had a real good defensive line, and he was part of that.  

[00:07:36]
>> Wow, that's cool.  So, would you compare -- they always talk about after 9/11, they said, "Where were you?"  And it was like a really monumental -- I was only one.  So, I don't have that experience.  

[00:07:48]
>> Yeah.  

[00:07:49]
>> Is there anything in '68 or even before than that you -- like a moment where you'd say, wow, that was like such a -- like an assassination or anything like that?  

[00:07:57]
>> No, I would say the moment on Vietnam came.  Then next year with the Kent State shooting.  I think that was '69.  

[00:08:06]
>> Mm-hm, maybe '69 or '70.  I'm not sure.  

[00:08:08]
>> Or '70, yeah.  

[00:08:12]
>> So, you think that --  

[00:08:14]
>> That was more of a moment where people said what are we doing shooting students who are protesting?  

[00:08:22]
>> So, I guess we'll shift gears a little bit back to Penn State.  So, did you have the interest that developed at Penn State?  Like something you really got into because of Penn State?  

[00:08:34]
>> My wife.  

[00:08:36]
>> You met her here?  

[00:08:38]
>> Yeah.  

[00:08:39]
>> Wow.  

[00:08:41]
>> No, I can't say.  I always said I was going to be an electrical engineer with electronics.  

[00:08:48]
>> Yeah.  

[00:08:48]
>> And that was really my profession, and then I spent the last 27 years working at the Applied Research Lab on campus here.  

[00:09:00]
>> So, what is one suggestion you would offer current Penn State students, academically, socially, I mean, anything?  That's a big question.  

[00:09:11]
>> You know, the student experience is so much different today than in the 50s.  Probably watch your drinking.  

[00:09:24]
>> Yeah, there's a problem with that.  

[00:09:27]
>> For one thing, I always like the statement that I heard when I came here of don't let your books get in the way of your education.  

[00:09:38]
>> Okay.  

[00:09:38]
>> Which means you need to develop kind of a social life too.  I was in a fraternity, so...  

[00:09:48]
>> Really?  Which one?  

[00:09:50]
>> Phi Sigma Kappa.  

[00:09:51]
>> I wonder if that's still around.  It probably is.  

[00:09:53]
>> It's -- yes, it is.  It's one of the ones on Allen Street.  

[00:09:56]
>> Ah, okay, nice.  So, speaking of the social experience, when you were here, what was the most important thing for students?  Do you think there was pretty much everyone was grades focused, or was it like -- because now they say it's a big party school.  Students want to focus on that, or...  

[00:10:13]
>> It was always considered a party school.  

[00:10:15]
>> Really?  

[00:10:17]
>> Yes.  When my wife told her grandmother she was going to Penn State, her grandmother had a fit because --  

[00:10:23]
>> Because of the reputation?  

[00:10:24]
>> -- she heard all these things about Penn State.  It was always considered a party school, but I think it was much more controlled than it is now, probably both by -- well, in those days it was still the era where, particularly women, were restricted in what they could do.  

[00:10:45]
>> Yeah, speaking of that, we talked a lot in class about how universities would have certain dorms just for women, and they couldn't live off campus.  Was that how it was at the time when you were there?  

[00:10:58]
>> When I was here, my sophomore year, I lived in Hamilton, but all the women, unless they were townies, had to live in dorms.  

[00:11:07]
>> Yeah.  

[00:11:09]
>> There were, I think it was, depending what class you were, if you're upperclassman, you might've had 10 during the week, and one during the weekends, but they all had to stay -- they couldn't -- we couldn't have women in the fraternity house unless there was a house mother there.  

[00:11:32]
>> Yeah.  

[00:11:33]
>> And they were not allowed in apartments.  

[00:11:38]
>> Yeah, yeah.  

[00:11:39]
>> By the official rules.  They couldn't wear slacks in class.  No matter how cold it was, they had to wear skirts.  

[00:11:48]
>> What was the view of that at the time?  Did the students think that was like that was bogus?  

[00:11:53]
>> Not much.  That was accepted.  

[00:11:55]
>> It was accepted?  

[00:11:55]
>> It really was accepted.  

[00:11:56]
>> Do you think -- when do you think that kind of changed, like the public's view of that?  

[00:12:03]
>> The public view might've not changed until about 1970, but the students, and it wasn't at Penn State.  Penn State was never real active in protests.  We were probably in the earlier 60s, a little bit before 60.  

[00:12:21]
>> Yeah, so it's interesting you mentioned that students weren't too active in protest, because I think that's kind of what everyone who's been doing this has gotten is that there really wasn't a whole lot of presence on campus.  Did -- were the students on campus just not really into the counterculture, or why you think there wasn't a whole lot of protest?  

[00:12:41]
>> Yeah, I can't really say.  I was not here at the time.  

[00:12:48]
>> Yeah.  

[00:12:49]
>> But I don't think, from what I heard, there was a whole lot of protest over the war.  There was some.  There are stories at Applied Research Lab, and we did defense work for the Navy, about a couple days where there was a student protest outside, but it was never violent.  It wasn't like what you got at Columbia or Berkeley or --  

[00:13:20]
>> Yeah, Berkeley was --  

[00:13:21]
>> -- those students.  

[00:13:22]
>> So, do you think -- this is kind of getting into the politics of it.  Do you think young people today like my age are more politically engaged than and '68 or and '58?  

[00:13:33]
>> Probably.  I couldn't vote until I was 21.  First year I voted was in 1960 in Virginia.  I had to take a literacy test in order to vote in Virginia.  So...  

[00:13:47]
>> That's crazy.  I didn't even know that was --  

[00:13:51]
>> It was a dumb test.  Anybody could've passed it.  It was [inaudible].  

[00:13:56]
>> What sort of things would've motivated -- were you politically involved in those -- '58 to '68 at that time?  

[00:14:03]
>> No.  

[00:14:03]
>> You just voted, and that was pretty --  

[00:14:05]
>> Yeah, we paid attention to the political things, but I was not actively involved.  

[00:14:11]
>> What sort of things today, like we have school shootings and whatnot.  Would anything that happens today have gotten you involved back then?  If we had school shootings then, would that have gotten you involved or Trump, I guess.  I don't know.  

[00:14:24]
>> Well, I'm not a Trump fan.  

[00:14:27]
>> Yeah.  

[00:14:28]
>> One of my biggest concerns today is the national debt.  I think that it could be a big worry, even a national defense worried.  If we don't get our hands on the national debt, it's going to hurt people your age.  It's not going to affect me.  

[00:14:47]
>> Yeah, I think, for people my age, the national debt isn't necessarily like at the top, but anytime you mention it, people are like -- it's very cynical.  You know, we're not very positive that it'll ever go down, that we'll ever pay it off.  It is a worry, but it's not an immediate worry for us, I think.  Climate change is more of a --  

[00:15:07]
>> And it's not talked about much in the press or by politicians.  Politicians don't want to talk about it.  

[00:15:14]
>> Because it's sort of -- it's all their faults.  You know?  

[00:15:17]
>> Yeah, both sides.  

[00:15:18]
>> Yeah, everyone's --  

[00:15:18]
>> This latest tax cut that Trump put through, I was against, mainly, because that was adding to the national debt.  

[00:15:25]
>> Yeah, I understand that.  So, I went over that one.  Do you have any regrets from your time it PSU, any big ones?  You met your wife.  So, that's obviously not a --  

[00:15:36]
>> I have one regret.  I was offered an assistantship when I graduated, to go to graduate school, and I turned it down.  And looking back on it, I wanted to get married, frankly.  

[00:15:52]
>> Yeah.  

[00:15:53]
>> And I wanted to really my dad of some financial responsibilities.  

[00:15:57]
>> Yeah.  

[00:16:00]
>> But I do have a master's degree, but I -- the fact that if I had taken that, maybe I'd have gone on for a PhD.  

[00:16:09]
>> Wow.  

[00:16:11]
>> That would be the only regret I have.  I had a great time at Penn State.  

[00:16:16]
>> Yeah, I think a lot of people -- a lot of people say that.  Great place.  Was there anything that you wish -- like clubs or anything that you wish you had gotten involved with?  

[00:16:27]
>> Well, I played in the band in high school, but I didn't try out for the Blue Band.  I don't think I was good enough, and probably because I went to Behrend it affected it also.  No, I can't really say.  

[00:16:40]
>> But if you had to do it all over again in -- what was it?  Fifty-four that year, '53 that you were starting college?  

[00:16:46]
>> Yeah, '54.  

[00:16:47]
>> Would you have chosen a different school or a different major anything?  

[00:16:51]
>> I wouldn't have chosen a different major.  That's one thing I can say.  Even my high school yearbook, it said, "Ambition to be an electrical engineer."  So...  

[00:17:00]
>> You would've stayed true to that?  

[00:17:02]
>> Yeah, so, yeah.  

[00:17:06]
>> So, let's talk about grades and social life.  In college, was your GPA something a lot of kids were concerned about?  

[00:17:17]
>> The GPA was something I was concerned about.  

[00:17:20]
>> Yeah.  

[00:17:20]
>> Yeah.  

[00:17:21]
>> Yeah, and as far as social --  

[00:17:24]
>> I don't think the GPAs, on average, were as high as they are today.  That's just my thinking.  I'm not sure if that's true.  

[00:17:34]
>> So, as far as like a social life would go in Penn State, you said you were in Greek life.  

[00:17:39]
>> Yes.  

[00:17:40]
>> Have you experienced anything with Greek life like today or since leaving Penn State?  

[00:17:45]
>> In the 80s, my son joined the same fraternity that I did, and I got very upset with the fraternity life in the 80s.  Too much drinking, and he suffered from that.  So, at first, I was a little active as alumni, but I haven't been since.  

[00:18:19]
>> Is that mostly like the drinking and stuff that kind of turned you off from being active with the --  

[00:18:24]
>> It was the drinking, yes, yeah.  

[00:18:27]
>> That's pretty prevalent at frats especially.  So, let's talk about a little bit of the politics of '68.  So, we had -- we talked about the convention and in the protests there.  Was there any -- I don't know how to word this.  Was there any protests or sort of movement that you supported in '68, or that you definitely didn't support?  

[00:18:50]
>> I have to admit, I voted for Nixon.  

[00:18:52]
>> In '68?  

[00:18:54]
>> I grew up in a Republican family, and  no, I can't really say.  I did have one experience at the end of '68 in November.  I actually moved from the Pittsburgh area to Baltimore with Westinghouse, and there had been riots, and we moved to the suburban part of Maryland, and there had been riots in Annapolis.  And my daughter, who was six, you could still feel the tension.  Even she felt it.  She wasn't quite sure, and then we had an incident, actually, we were moving with what I think was racial tension where the mover, who I think was half inebriated, frankly, got very upset at us, and he got in the truck and drove off with half our furniture.  

[00:19:57]
>> Did you ever get back?  

[00:19:59]
>> Oh, yeah, but he knew he was in trouble, because he took the keys and threw them away.  But I think that was partially racial tension.  

[00:20:09]
>> Yeah, did you feel any resentment towards him, or was it just...  

[00:20:15]
>> Towards him, yes.  

[00:20:16]
>> Yeah.  

[00:20:19]
>> But the people who came, and they were also black, who were the nicest people in the world, so...  

[00:20:25]
>> Yeah, yeah, my grandfather always tells a story about when he was in the military, he would lend one of his black roommates or whatever you want to call them a tie, and then he lent a white roommate a tie, and he'd always say, kind of jokingly, that the white roommate never gave him the tie back, but the black guy was always good to give it back to him.  And I always just thought that was -- like why did that story stick with him?  So, I thought it was interesting, as far as like racial relations at the time.  

[00:20:57]
>> [inaudible] was in the military.  

[00:20:59]
>> Yeah.  

[00:20:59]
>> When I got out in '58, I started interviewing, and I really planned then, because the draft was going on, that I would spend two years in the military.  They started telling me, well, we'll get you a deferment.  So, I even went down to the draft board in Erie and said, this is what they're telling me.  And they said, yeah, we'll give you a deferment.  

[00:21:21]
>> Do you wish you would've served?  

[00:21:22]
>> I sometimes do.  Yeah, I sometimes regret that I did not have that experience.  Now I was in that hole between Korea and Vietnam.  

[00:21:32]
>> Yeah, yeah.  

[00:21:33]
>> So...  

[00:21:33]
>> It's interesting.  My grandfather served in Korea.  So, he's probably, I'd say, a bit younger than you.  

[00:21:41]
>> I'm 82, so...  

[00:21:43]
>> He's older, actually.  

[00:21:45]
>> Okay.  

[00:21:46]
>> So, let's move into -- let's see.  Let's see.  So, let's do this 60s as a decade, for someone my age, seems very transformative.  At the time, did you think, like wow, like '68.  Like wow, this year has been --  

[00:22:04]
>> Oh, I thought it was transformative, too, with the whole things going on at colleges where the loco parenti went away, and free love and the whole sexual revolution started in the 60s.  

[00:22:28]
>> How did you view that at the time?  

[00:22:40]
>> I'm trying to think.  The free love part?  

[00:22:42]
>> Yeah, sure, any of it.  

[00:22:44]
>> I probably was not in favor of that.  Some of the sexual revolution did start in the 50s a little more.  Some of the free speech movement took us by surprise, because it didn't meet our moral of the type of language used and in which company, with our [inaudible].  

[00:23:20]
>> Looking back, do you view how you viewed that then differently?  Like the sexual revolution are just the --  

[00:23:31]
>> Well, let's take feminism.  

[00:23:33]
>> Sure.  

[00:23:33]
>> Yeah, I would view that very differently, frankly.  My wife, she's got a PhD.  

[00:23:41]
>> Yeah.  

[00:23:42]
>> Which she got older, but when the kids were little, she stayed home, and the choices for women when I was graduating from high school were teacher, secretary, nurse practically.  And the fact that my granddaughters and even my daughter --  

[00:24:03]
>> Could be an electrical engineer just like you.  

[00:24:05]
>> Yeah, yeah.  

[00:24:06]
>> That's definitely probably changed through one lifetime.  

[00:24:08]
>> When I was in college here, there was, and I think there are a lot of electrical engineers, like 180, one woman.  In the whole college of engineering, two women.  The other one was industrial engineering.  

[00:24:25]
>> Yeah, there's a lot of -- like if the numbers are still sort of like they are now, I think, but there is more women involved in like STEM majors and stuff.  

[00:24:35]
>> Yeah, yeah.  

[00:24:35]
>> And that's been a big push.  

[00:24:36]
>> Yeah.  

[00:24:37]
>> I think it can only benefit --  

[00:24:39]
>> Oh, yeah.  I'm certainly glad that, particularly my granddaughters, have a chance, and my daughter's started -- she had a degree in mineral economics, which they don't give today, and then a master's degree in management from Georgia Tech, and she works today in the financial industry.  

[00:25:02]
>> So, let's talk about Westinghouse, because just with a quick Google, I was sort of like really intrigued.  So, what I understand is that you did a lot with nuclear energy and stuff, or no?  

[00:25:18]
>> Westinghouse, of course, was one of the big electrical industry and electronics at the time.  I had worked a couple places before I went to work for Westinghouse.  I went to work for Westinghouse at the Astronuclear Laboratory.  You may be surprised to know that in the 1960s, there was an active program to send a man to Mars, and the first thing they wanted to do was develop the rocket that would take the man from Earth orbit to Mars, and they chose a nuclear rocket to do it, because there are some advantages to nuclear, in terms of the exhaust.  

[00:26:14]
>> And so, that was kind of done at the Astronuclear Factory you were working at?  

[00:26:23]
>> The Astronuclear Lab outside of Pittsburgh.  

[00:26:26]
>> What was your like day-to-day duties there?  

[00:26:28]
>> What was it like a today?  

[00:26:29]
>> Yeah, day-to-day, what would you do?  

[00:26:34]
>> Well, the first thing we did was wore a coat and tie to work.  You took the coat off, but you left the tie on.  If you went to a meeting, you put the coat back on.  A lot of what I did was desk work.  At the time, we had a big analog computer that simulated -- it was a joint program between Westinghouse and Aerojet General in California.  They did the rocket part.  We did the engine part, and there was a lot of go-between because they controlled pressure.  We controlled temperature, but they interact with each other.  So, a lot of it was desk work.  Frankly, most of it was still using the slide rule.  We didn't have calculators at the time.  We did have a big analog computer where we could take prototypes of our control circuits over and see how -- whether they were stable or not.  

[00:27:41]
>> Did you get the feeling when you worked there that you were working on like sort of new technology and stuff?  

[00:27:49]
>> When I look back on my career, I look at those five years at Astronuclear as a highlight.  

[00:27:54]
>> Yeah.  

[00:27:54]
>> Because we were working on something that had never been done.  At that time, both space and nuclear were still hot topics.  

[00:28:05]
>> Yeah, yeah.  

[00:28:09]
>> We ran a series of tests in the Nevada desert, and in order to go out there, we have to stay in Las Vegas.  

[00:28:22]
>> Wow, that must've been a time.  

[00:28:24]
>> Which was 90 miles away, but it was the closest place to stay, and I had a couple extended tours to the test site where we did significant tests.  

[00:28:37]
>> Were you like really in tune with what was going on in the news, as far as atom bomb and nuclear technology sending people to the moon?  

[00:28:47]
>> I had not been.  A lot of people I worked with had been involved with the naval nuclear reactors, and then, in the beginning of the power reactors.  I was not.  I had been more in radar and communications before I came there, but to me, looking back, it was an exciting time.  

[00:29:14]
>> Yeah, where did you go to after?  Is that when you came back to Penn State?  

[00:29:18]
>> No, I took a transfer within Westinghouse to Baltimore, and that's when I went to work on Mark 48 acoustic torpedo, and that's what I did.  That's how I got in later to the Applied Research Lab here, because that's what we did here.  

[00:29:37]
>> Interesting.  So, the torpedoes, is that like a defense military kind of thing, or was it something else, because I have no idea what that is?  

[00:29:48]
>> You don't have an idea --  

[00:29:50]
>> I know what a torpedo is, I think.  Isn't that underwater and hit a submarine?  

[00:29:54]
>> Well, the one I went to work for on Westinghouse was a Mark 48 torpedo, and today, it's still one of the main torpedoes carried by a submarine as an anti-submarine warfare weapon.  

[00:30:13]
>> Was Westinghouse -- didn't it have like a defense contract with the government?  

[00:30:17]
>> Westinghouse had a big defense and space center at the Baltimore Airport.  It's still there, but today, it's Northrop Grumman, and they had been in the torpedo business.  In fact, during World War II, they built torpedoes in Sharon, if you know where that is.  

[00:30:39]
>> Yeah, I've heard of it.  

[00:30:42]
>> Those were more or less shoot and forget.  The ones I worked on were acoustic guided.  We would mainly send out a pulse.  Get one back.  

[00:30:55]
>> Then kind of drive the [inaudible].  

[00:30:59]
>> Yeah, and then do the guidance of how it would get there, and there's some more subtleties that I really can't go into.  It was definitely weapon for the Navy, yes.  

[00:31:15]
>> Did you -- was what you were working on like secret at all at the time, or was it, you know what I mean?  

[00:31:23]
>> They -- technology on the nuclear rocket engine was classified.  It was a joint contract between the Atomic Energy Commission and the Department of Defense.  What we worked on was mainly classified at confidential, which is not that high.  

[00:31:44]
>> Yeah, so you have clearance?  

[00:31:47]
>> What's that?  

[00:31:48]
>> Did you have that clearance to --  

[00:31:49]
>> I had a secret clearance.  I've had a top-secret clearance when I was at here.  

[00:31:56]
>> That's interesting.  That's awesome.  

[00:31:58]
>> My wife would tell you, she never knew exactly what I did, because I couldn't tell her.  

[00:32:05]
>> It's actually funny, because my brother, who's a bit older.  He's like 32.  He works, I think at the Geo Space Shuttle Intelligence agency or something, and he doesn't tell us what he does.  He's not allowed to, so that's an interesting connection there.  So, let's do a little bit of comparison between today and 1968.  So, you said you're not a big Trump guy.  

[00:32:32]
>> No.  

[00:32:32]
>> Understandable.  Do you think that the tension politically and racially that we see today is comparable to '68?  

[00:32:42]
>> No.  

[00:32:43]
>> No?  Was it more then, or?  

[00:32:45]
>> Yeah, I think it was more then.  The riots, particularly after Martin Luther King's death, were much worse than anything we seen today.  The Civil Rights Bill had just been passed.  That must've been passed in '64.  

[00:33:12]
>> Sixty-four or '65.  

[00:33:14]
>> Yeah, so I think there was a lot more racial tension.  Within the government, even within the populace, there was more compromise.  There wasn't the financial or political right and left that there is today.  

[00:33:37]
>> So, you said in '68 you voted for Nixon and you grew up in like a Republican household.  Today would you still identify with the Republican Party or...  

[00:33:48]
>> I'm a registered Republican who feels that he doesn't have a party.  

[00:33:52]
>> Yeah.  

[00:33:52]
>> Because I consider myself very much a moderate, and I did not agree with the social issues that the Republicans are -- push, and I don't agree with everything has to be no taxes.  I do think the upper-income people need to shoulder more of the financial...  

[00:34:22]
>> Do you think that the change in the Republican Party or, probably both parties, because, I think politics in general, since '68 has been sort of a decline?  Or would you say that the politics back then was just as cynical?  You said that you thought there was more compromise then, so...  

[00:34:48]
>> I don't think they were as cynical.  I think where they took a big hit was with Watergate and Nixon.  I voted for Nixon in '68.  I did not in '72, because I knew something was off, although my wife said, "Well, if you thought McGovern could have won, you would've voted."  

[00:35:12]
[ Laughter ]  

[00:35:14]
>> Yeah, that's interesting.  So today, we see a lot of student protests.  I'm involved with even some around campus, I and I plan on being more involved in the future about a lot of Trump-related things, because he's just a big issue, but also, a lot more movement things, like the MeToo movement and feminism.  There's a lot of protests around campus today because of that.  Do you think that those kind of movements are comparable to like the antiwar movement?  

[00:35:44]
>> No.  

[00:35:44]
>> That is dedicated or...  

[00:35:46]
>> As a resident of State College, I don't hear much about protests on campus.  I mean, a little bit, but not like the 60s.  You know, the antiwar movement.  

[00:35:58]
>> That's interesting.  What about like the Woman's March in early 2017, I think?  How would you look at that compared to 68?  Like looking back, do you think that was as monumental as one of those?  

[00:36:14]
>> And 68, you wouldn't have seen a feminist movement like that.  The feminist movement really hadn't taken off at that time, at least as I recall.  

[00:36:27]
>> Yeah, I think it was a 70s.  

[00:36:30]
>> Yeah.  There were some antiwar movements where a lot of women took part in them, and I know a friend of ours who said, "If my son was drafted, I'd send him to Canada."  

[00:36:51]
>> Yeah, my mom would never let me serve in the military, even if I wanted to.  So...  

[00:36:57]
>> My son, who I thought would never serve, is an Iraq and Afghanistan veteran, and he was -- he actually went and spent five years in Iraq, one year as a naval reservist and four years with the State Department.  

[00:37:20]
>> Wow, [inaudible].  That's good stuff.  How did you -- just out of curiosity, how did you view the war in Iraq as a parent of a soldier overseas?  

[00:37:34]
>> I didn't think the war in Iraq was necessary.  I wasn't violently against it.  When my son said he had -- he was going to Iraq  

[00:37:49]
[ Buzzing ]  

[00:38:41]
>> So, the last question I'd like to ask, because I was-- I dabbled with the [inaudible] a little bit, is they call it the golden question.  Was there anything else you would like to add about your life, Penn State, or the 60s?  

[00:38:54]
[ Buzzing ]  

[00:39:28]
>> She had a way of rubbing people the wrong way.  

[00:39:31]
>> Yeah, she --  

[00:00:00]

>> All right.  So, you had a chance to look over a couple of the questions that I'll be asking.  Before we get started, we're all clear on the release form?  Everything's?  

[00:00:13]
>> Oh, yeah.  Yeah, that's fine.  No problem.  

[00:00:14]
>> Okay.  Very cool.  So, the first question for you is what years did you attend Penn State.  

[00:00:24]
>> I started as a Freshman in the fall of '64 and then graduated in June '68.  

[00:00:31]
>> Very cool.  Why did you, what do you choose Penn State for your university education?  

[00:00:40]
>> Well, the short answer is that my father had gone there, graduating back in 1936.  

[00:00:46]
>> Wow.  

[00:00:47]
>> But, my parents were, I was fortunate in that I guess you'd say my dad wanted me to have as good a college experience as he had because it was transforming.  On the other hand, he wanted me to have the kind of situation and experience that was right for me.  And so, for as much as he loved Penn State and was involved with the school, that didn't automatically mean he wanted me to go there.  So, summer vacations, we went out to the Midwest and looked at Wisconsin, Northwestern, and Michigan.  And then, we went all over the northeast and that as well.  And, I actually was accepted at Cornell and was intending to major in Industrial and Labor Relations, probably to become a labor lawyer, but then, I began to have second thoughts.  And, in the end decided that Penn State had everything I wanted, and I felt very comfortable there.  
[00:01:47]
I had been coming there since I was just a kid, and so in the end, that's.  I changed my mind and came to Penn State and have absolutely no regrets whatsoever.  

[00:01:59]
>> Awesome.  Where about in Pennsylvania did you grow up?  

[00:02:03]
>> Actually, grew up in Buffalo, New York.  

[00:02:05]
>> Oh, okay.  Very cool.  

[00:02:07]
>> Yeah.  

[00:02:07]
>> And, what was your major at Penn State?  

[00:02:14]
>> At that time, they had a major called Pre-Law which the core of which was Political Science, but it also gave you flexibility to take other courses which I did.  And, although there wasn't, I guess back then, as much emphasis or on formally having a second major or a minor or whatever, effectively I minored in business.  So, I took all of the political science related courses plus history, etc. But then, also took accounting and finance, economics.  And, because I had taken Spanish all the way through what we then called Junior High School and then High School, I took some Spanish there and actually ended up being in the more advanced courses with the Spanish majors, including, you know, Spanish literature and Spanish history and the like.  

[00:03:11]
>> Oh, wow.  I was actually in a Spanish III class.  It was pretty difficult compared to my high school experience in Spanish, but got through it.  So, was there a particular professor that made a lasting impression on your studies at Penn State?  

[00:03:30]
>> Well, I had a quite a number of good professors and good courses, but probably the one that stood out the most was a course in I forget the official name, but it was really on the Cold War.  Basically, U.S. Soviet relations.  And, it was taught by Vernon [inaudible] who actually was a Russian Jewish immigrant who had come to the U.S. when he was small and then went through his education.  Ended up teaching at Penn State.  And, he was one of the foremost experts on the Soviet Union and the Cold War, and he was fluent in Russian.  Read [inaudible] every day, and so, that course really, that was what really educated me and changed a lot of my views on the Vietnam War.  Because that, I mean, that was really the big issue.  
[00:04:32]
Our involvement there was growing.  I took the course with Professor [inaudible], and I imagine it would have been, it was '67 I think, spring of, fall or spring of.  The fall of '66 or the spring of '67, I guess.  And so, our involvement there had ramped up greatly, and so basically, you know, in the end, he said, you know, "Everything you think you know about why we're there and what's going on is wrong."  And, that this really is just a continuation of the actions by what was originally called the Viet Minh with Ho Chi Minh going back to the '30s against the French.  And then, after that, the Japanese.  And then, after World War II, the French again.  And then, ultimately, the United States.  And, so, he said in the end, it really is a national liberation type movement has the communist overtones because that's where Ho Chi Minh could get support.  
[00:05:43]
And, so, from all aspects, you know, the talked about how we literally would have to transform that government in terms of the corruption and everything with the South Vietnamese government that we would have to be in there for an extended period of time.  And, that so far, we had escalated the level of violence and helped to cause an enormous number of deaths both civilian and military.  But, in the end, it's likely that we would fail, that we were winning all the battles but losing the war.  And then, this was before the Tet Offensive in '68 which changed everybody's perception of things.  

[00:06:27]
>> Wow.  It's interesting to get a perspective from someone who actually lived in the Soviet Union for some time.  

[00:06:36]
>> Yeah.  

[00:06:36]
>> So, what music did you like when you, around this time of '68?  

[00:06:44]
>> Well, of course, in '64 was the first Beatles tour of the U.S., which they were on the Ed Sullivan show and all that stuff.  And so, that began to change things, but I say at Penn State, effectively for us, it was still the Philadelphia Sound, the Dick Clark American Bandstand type music combined with Motown.  

[00:07:10]
>> All right.  

[00:07:11]
>> And, certainly for parties and dancing and concerts, that was it.  

[00:07:15]
>> I'm pretty into the late '60s, early '70s music.  That's pretty much exclusively all I listen to, so that era is, I wish I could have grown up in that time.  My favorite band right now is the Doors.  

[00:07:33]
>> Oh, well, yeah, I remember them.  Although, you know, the hottest, the group right now in the world is BTS, a K-pop group that's touring the world.  In fact, one of the professors there at Penn State, I don't know exactly what course it is, but he did a whole class on BTS.  

[00:07:50]
>> I have not heard of it.  

[00:07:52]
>> That's on YouTube.  Yeah.  That's on YouTube.  

[00:07:56]
>> Where did you get or obtain your news?  

[00:08:02]
>> It would be a combination of sources.  Of course, I was taking courses where we were talking about current events in conjunction with whatever was the specific curriculum of the course.  From the time I was a little kid, I read the newspaper.  And, for several of our courses, it was required that we read the New York Times.  And so, I read the New York Times pretty much the whole time I was at Penn State, and when there were times I was up at the library, I would check not only the Times but Washington Post and, you know, what other of the big name newspapers they had.  And, of course, we had the radio on kind of in our room when we were studying all the time, primarily for music.  But, you'd have the news.  And then, lastly, this was an era when people still watched Walter Cronkite and the 6:00 news.  And, there in the fraternity, we only had one TV, and it was in our living room and slash kind of TV room.  
[00:09:08]
And, even though guys would be heading off to do different things or going back to study, there was always a group that watched the news every night, and so, many nights I did, too.  

[00:09:21]
>> Yeah.  Interesting how times change.  Now everyone just gets their news through their phones, and you don't have to.  

[00:09:27]
>> Right.  

[00:09:27]
>> Do too much work.  You just listen to it or watch the news and stuff like that.  So, there was a lot of things happening in the '60s such as the moon landings and the student protests because of the elections in '68.  And, what were your particular interests at the time?  

[00:09:48]
>> Well, talking, well, I'll say backing up, having chosen a major where I, then, intended to go to law school, one of the things that was on my mind then was that becoming a lawyer would enable you to go in a variety of directions.  You know, it could be, you know, it could be to a law firm in a traditional practice, but also could be into a government position.  It might ultimately also lead to working with nonprofits or whatever.  Whether it's domestically or internationally.  It could lead to teaching.  So, there's an awful lot of flexibility there with part of it focusing on the fact that you very much could, at some point in your career, get involved with the, you know, something bigger than just practicing law.  And, as far as Penn State at that time, the student protests when we were there were fairly sporadic and small.  
[00:10:59]
Things were building around the country, at least until we got to '68.  They were building around the country.  You're reading about things.  There were students who were paying attention, but there were an awful lot of students who also, you know, kind of were oblivious or they'd note it and then move on.  And, it was really at this time that the term Happy Valley became popular, and in one sense, it kind of signified the ignorant bliss of being in the middle of Pennsylvania up in the mountains.  And, if the football team won and if you had a good party that weekend and you had a date for Saturday night, that was, you know, life was good.  So, but the '68 election really, you might say, changed everything, along with the events that were going on at the same time.  
[00:12:02]
You had the assassination of Martin Luther King.  Then, the assassination of Bobby Kennedy.  And, the assassination of King, obviously, was horrendous, and it changed the whole tone of what was going on.  The assassination of Bobby Kennedy was kind of the final blow, in a sense, and that really, I think, shook up people even more, and particularly in light of the assassination of his brother at the end of '63.  And, I know on the night of the California primary, a number of us were up late studying, and I don't think they declared a victor in that until 11:00, between 11:00 and midnight L.A. time.  And so, for us, it would have been 2:00 in the morning.  But, there were a number of us who went down, and we turned the TV on to see that portion where Kennedy was declared the victor and he made his speech.  
[00:13:09]
But, basically, then, as soon as he left the podium, we turned the TV off, and everybody went back to your room.  And, by the time I got back to my room, it was on the news that he had been shot.  

[00:13:20]
>> Oh, wow.  

[00:13:20]
>> And, I remember leaving the room and going back down the hallway pounding on people's doors and just yelling, "Kennedy's been shot."  And so, despite the fact now it was going on three in the morning, most of the fraternity house was up, and we turned the TV back on and watched it for, I don't know, sometime until it became clear there was no more news.  He was in critical condition.  They had taken him to the hospital, and that was it.  And so, then, it wasn't until early in the morning or in the morning, they announced that he had passed away.  So, that really, that really changed things.  And then, the election itself with the Democratic Convention in Chicago, and in addition to Nixon, you know, you had George Wallace.  You had Spiro Agnew running as Vice President, who up until then had been viewed as fairly liberal.  But, he became Nixon's hatchet man.  
[00:14:21]
And so, things really got ugly, and so, '68, and I don't know how much of the interviews that you've watched of people who gave interviews, including myself, for the 1968 course that they had been teaching.  But, that really was, and then, of course, you had the Tet Offensive, which, technically, militarily, the United States won.  But, in terms of the attitudes among the American people, it was very clear that we had been lied to.  

[00:14:56]
>> Yeah.  

[00:14:56]
>> Up until then, we had been told we were winning the war and all we need is a few more troops and a little more time, and, but it was all of that just went right out the window.  

[00:15:09]
>> Yeah.  Some things never change with the news, you know?  

[00:15:11]
>> Yeah.  

[00:15:12]
>> What were your motivations during 1968?  

[00:15:21]
>> Well, I guess you'd say for us, particularly, I was in my senior year.  That was when they did away with the deferments such that we had our deferments through '68 and graduation, but then, by fall of '68 when I was starting law school, we were reclassified 1A.  And, for anybody who was leaving school and that, unless they had some kind of physical problem or unless they could find a doctor who said they had a physical problem, they were getting drafted.  And so, now, the draft was picking up thousands of your white, middle class kids.  And, not that some of them hadn't served earlier, but in the early years of the war, so many of the troops in Vietnam were your minorities, particularly your African Americans.  

[00:16:17]
>> Right.  

[00:16:17]
>> And, they were the ones carrying the load.  And, all of that changed, really, in '68 and then into '69.  And then, ultimately in '70 they started the draft lottery.  So, that was the big cloud you had over your head, what was going to happen next.  Would you go in the service?  Would you be able to continue on with school or whatever?  And, you know, at this time, I had made plans to go to law school, and then, ultimately in the fall of '68, I went to NYU.  But, in order to continue there and complete law school in that three year period, I joined the ROTC.  So, I went through ROTC in law school which was quite an experience being in ROTC and walking across Washington Square in Greenwich Village in an Army uniform.  
[00:17:18]
So, and then we also, it was a joint program with City College in New York with its campus up at 138th Street and [inaudible] in Harlem.  And so, half of our classes and meetings were at NYU, and the other half were at CCNY.  And so, we would go up there, and I was new to New York.  I had never been to Harlem before.  And, so, you're a little bit nervous.  You don't know your way around.  

[00:17:50]
>> Of course.  

[00:17:50]
>> And, but, I was wearing an Army uniform my first meeting, and I got off the subway.  And, I guess I was looking around trying to orient myself.  And, a black, middle aged business man came up to me, and he just said, "You need some help?  You need some directions?"  And, at that point in time, if you wore an Army uniform in Harlem, you were absolutely safe.  

[00:18:14]
>> Yeah.  

[00:18:15]
>> Because so many of their kids were in Vietnam.  And, so, people were very polite.  They'd say hello and all that.  Very un what you think of as New York.  And then, you get back off the subway in Greenwich Village, and you never knew what was going to happen.  Cat calls.  Somebody throwing eggs at you, whatever.  It could be anything, spitting.  It could be anything.  

[00:18:45]
>> And, were you interested in these things before you started at Penn State, or did it only start after you've enrolled and arrived on campus?  

[00:18:55]
>> Well, I guess I always was interested in history and politics.  My parents weren't directly active in politics, but they paid attention to them.  And, just so happened that the mother of one of my closest friends in high school was the number two person in the Republican Party at, in Eerie County in western New York.  And, another neighbor down the street was a judge, and so you, there was, we knew people who were involved in local politics.  And, actually the congressmen from our district had worked with my dad.  

[00:19:39]
>> Oh, wow.  

[00:19:39]
>> So, you had things kind of going on around you, so you were very much aware of a political side of things.  And, at that time, you had, and I worked summers in factories.  And, so I belong to the union.  I belong to the Teamsters.  And, I belong to the United Mine Workers, and back when their reputations were not real good.  But, so, the city itself was very working class.  What they used to call blue collar, and so there was, in the context of labor management relations, local politics and that, you had the city, which was largely Democratic.  And then, you had the surrounding area, much of which had been rural, farming, until after World War II when the suburbs began to grow out.  And, that had been predominately Republican.  

[00:20:41]
>> Yeah.  

[00:20:41]
>> And so, and then, you had high profile things like, you know, Nelson Rockefeller was governor of New York.  And, potential presidential candidate.  You know, you had some pretty high profile things going on around you, and at that time, your eastern Republicans, particularly from New York State, have played such a prominent role in national politics.  With Rockefeller and before him, Dewey had run for president, and then Governor Wendell Willkie and all them.  So, yeah, it was, so there was awareness all around you as I was going up.  

[00:21:21]
>> Very interesting.  What's one suggestion you would make to current, or you would offer to current Penn State students?  

[00:21:31]
>> Well, I'd say two things.  In the context that we're talking about, you know, by the late '60 and then continuing on in the early '70s, particularly in light of what happened ultimately in Vietnam and then also with Nixon and Watergate, you know, we, our generation really was going to change the world.  It was a tremendous amount of idealism, and we were young enough, and I suppose arrogant enough to think that we could solve these problems if we're somehow, someway, my parents and grandparents hadn't been able to solve.  And, with the passage of time, certainly things changed a lot, and in many ways, things changed more than we kind of give it give it credit for.  I mean, the opportunities for women especially, despite all the issues with the inner cities.  You have, you really have a genuine African American middle class and professionals that you really didn't have anywhere near the same scale back then.  
[00:22:47]
And, you have neighborhoods that are, well, at this time, resegregating because of the price of housing in the United States.  

[00:22:56]
>> Yep.  

[00:22:56]
>> But, you, back then, you know, there were restrictive covenants on properties in most cities in the United States.  People weren't supposed to sell to a minority.  And, sometimes they did, but they weren't supposed to.  It was against the deed of their home.  

[00:23:13]
>> Wow.  

[00:23:14]
>> And, that's, you know, largely changed, and I've said that to my own kids who were, my wife is Asian, and so our kids are Asian.  And, just, I tell them, you know, that 50, 60 years ago, if you were in an Asian family, you'd be living in Chinatown.  That's the way it is.  

[00:23:36]
>> Wow.  

[00:23:37]
>> And so, the whole notion of basically living wherever you want, assuming you've got the money, that just didn't even exist back in the '50s and '60s.  So, a tremendous amount has changed.  You know, on the other hand, you know, there are some problems that you don't change in 50 years.  Maybe you make some progress, but you don't solve it.  Same way you don't cure cancer immediately.  And, some problems, you think you've solved, and then, all of a sudden, they come back again.  And, frankly, by the '80s, we were into the era of greed and Wall Street, and you know, frankly, some people my generation sold out for money.  And, you know, I always work in big business, too, and that.  But, and I guess I'm a little bit sorry given the level of education that we have in my generation when I look at some of my friends and look at all the opportunities we had, our parents had with the GI Bill and housing for veterans.  
[00:24:49]
All that.  And, back with, you know, state universities expanded dramatically in the '60s when we were there.  And, all of these things we had, and now, somehow, you know, we didn't have any advantages.  We did it all on our own, and now the people of this generation should do that, too.  Because that's what we did.  

[00:25:11]
>> Yeah.  Sounds like there's a sense of complacency.  

[00:25:15]
>> Yeah.  So, in the context.  That's the one thing, focusing more directly on Penn State and the Student experience.  Everybody talks about how things are changing so fast.  Only 25% of you work in your major.  And, you'll change jobs four times and employers eight times.  And, all that may very well be true.  Having said that, I think basically, young people today going into college, you should have a game plan.  You don't have to make final decisions, and frankly, most any mistake you make right now is not going to ruin your life.  You just recalibrate, and maybe shift direction a little.  But, you still need to have a game plan, and but then, be constantly evaluating things.  Every, end of every semester, you know.  What courses you take?  What did you like?  What didn't you like?  
[00:26:15]
Do you want to do more of this?  Particularly, the courses in what is your major.  What do you think?  And, particularly people you come in contact with from whatever line of work or occupation you're thinking about.  Look at them, those who are out 10 years, 15, 20 years, and you got to ask yourself, is this what I want to be doing when I'm 40?  Do I think I'm going to like that?  And then, you got to look at the total picture, including how much money you can make and that.  Not that money is everything, but.  

[00:26:50]
>> Yeah.  

[00:26:50]
>> And, you keep evaluating.  And, I'd say the last thing is there are things that are going to cross your path where just because you are young and haven't had much experience, you don't really know whether it's a good opportunity or not.  And so, you need to stick your chin out, and if something kind of strikes your fancy, take a chance.  You know, I'm mentoring a young woman today who, or this year, who's a political science major at Penn State and intending to go to law school, but she had a couple different opportunities this past summer.  An internship with, in a legal department for medical high tech.  And then, kind of, and that paid and actually paid a decent wage for an intern.  And then, there was another opportunity that kind of came out of left field to work at the Israeli consulate here.  

[00:27:44]
>> Wow.  

[00:27:45]
>> Businesses that want to do business in the U.S. or U.S. businesses that want to do, strike up partnerships with companies in Israel.  And, you know, I said to her, I said, you know, this is, you can shuffle papers at a lawyer for a long time, but this is something very different.  You can meet some interesting people and interesting situations.  So, in the end, it's your decision, but this could be really good and be fun and kind of unique in terms of the kind of internships that people often can get.  And, in the end, that's what you decided to do.  So, they said, there's going to be some things you just don't know enough about, and you got to stick your chin out.  And, sometimes, you get upside the head with a two by four.  And, you just say, okay.  That isn't the right thing, but, you know.  And, as I said, you just, as Yogi Berra said, "When you get to the fork in the road, take it."  

[00:28:47]
>> Yep.  My dad always says, his saying is, "If you get a job you like, you'll never work a day in your life."  And, I would like to.  

[00:28:54]
>> Well, that's true.  Yeah.  And, I fortunate that for the work I did, and I also ended up doing a pretty big political component of it, being I was a tax lawyer.  

[00:29:06]
>> Wow.  

[00:29:07]
>> Both at the state level and federal level through industry associations and other taxpayer groups.  It was interesting.  You know, they were going through mergers and downsizing wasn't very much fun.  And, no matter where you go, there's going to be politics.  But, the work I did, I enjoyed a lot.  In that sense, taxes is a lot more interesting than people think it can be, mainly because we try to do so much with our tax law besides raising revenue.  

[00:29:40]
>> So, you mentioned.  

[00:29:45]
>> No, go ahead.  

[00:29:46]
>> Mentioned you were responsible for bringing the first big band to Penn State.  I just want to talk a little about that.  What was that band, and did you have any difficulties in doing so?  

[00:29:58]
>> Well, yes and no.  It's kind of difficult because students really had never taken the initiative on concerts before.  There had been concerts, and some pretty big ones.  But, students hadn't taken the initiative.  And, I was very involved with the inter fraternity council, and my roommate was the president that year.  And, I was one of his chief assistants.  And, we needed to raise money for the cooperative, food cooperative we were setting up where all the fraternities would buy together.  Because, basically, they were getting ripped off by local merchants when they were buying, you know, one on one.  But, we needed, like, I think $25,000 that we would have enough money that we could go out and sign contracts with people.  And, so we had the idea of a concert, and the father of one of the people on the inner fraternity council was the head of the officers clubs for the U.S. Navy.  

[00:31:03]
>> Oh, cool.  

[00:31:04]
>> And so, he knew people throughout the entertainment business, and that led to us getting our first big concert.  And, to tell you the truth, we had, ended up having so many, I can't remember which was the first one.  Because we had the Supremes.  We had the Temptations, Sam and Dave, the Four Tops.  Also had Bill Cosby.  But, we, Jimmy Ruffin.  We had all of these top groups over the course of a two plus year period.  And, made enormous amounts of money.  

[00:31:44]
>> Awesome.  

[00:31:46]
>> And, but when we went to the university with our idea, they didn't really say no.  They just didn't know what to do with it.  You know, it was like, who do you go to for approval?  They didn't really know.  Do we have to sign a contract, or, you know, what is it?  And, really came down to the only question they asked was who's going to pay for cleaning up rec hall after the concert's over?  And, we said, you know, we'll, we expect to make enough money that we can, you know, you can have the university staff do it, and we'll pay whatever it costs.  And so, that was it.  That, in the end, that was the only hoop.  

[00:32:26]
>> Nice.  So, what were your biggest challenges during all of your years at Penn State while getting your education?  

[00:32:39]
>> You know, on the one had, compared with a lot of people, I didn't have to jump the hurdles that a lot of kids did.  You know, I, we weren't rich, but, you know, we were pretty solidly middle class.  And, for me, for me, in my experience at Penn State really goes out of my father having gone there in '36.  Because my dad came from a single parent family.  His dad had died from complications of surgery when he was only about two years old.  And so, was just my dad and his mother through the depression.  And so, my dad had to start working after school when he was in junior high school.  Paper routes, shoveling snow, raking leaves, whatever you can do when you're that age.  And then, ultimately, in high school, he worked as a bellhop in a leading hotel in the town where they grew up which was Jamestown, New York in the southern tier.  And, then, ultimately, then, he came to Penn State and worked his way through Penn State.  
[00:33:45]
And so, that for, you know, I'll say, the decision and then the determination that my dad showed then, that really set a totally different trajectory for my whole family from then on.  And so, but in our fraternity, we had a number of, in fact, the majority of them came from the coal towns and the steel towns where they were first generation going to college.  

[00:34:16]
>> Right.  

[00:34:17]
>> In fact, one of my fraternity brothers just passed away a little over a month ago.  

[00:34:20]
>> Oh, wow.  I'm sorry.  

[00:34:21]
>> Come out of Oakmont.  His dad was a steel worker.  His dad was killed in an accident when my friend was 12 years old.  You know, and my friend, then, worked summers in the steel mills, and ultimately, he was very successful in venture capital.  He's given several million dollars to the university, including the library.  Co-Chair of the library campaign with Joe and Sue Paterno.  And so, but he believed passionately in the mission of land grant universities.  And, you want to be good academically in that, but the goal isn't to be Harvard.  The goal is to educate the kids primarily within Pennsylvania who need higher education.  So, I didn't have all of the obstacles they did.  I did have to work summers, and as I said, I worked in the factories because the money was good.  And so, and I had some idea what I wanted to do.  I think, like, all of us, you might say no matter who well prepared you are, you always have anxieties, you always have uncertainty at times.  

[00:35:31]
>> Right.  

[00:35:32]
>> And, but, ultimately, you know, and you look back at things, and you almost made a decision to do one thing or whatever, and ultimately, most of the big decisions I've been confronted with have gone the right way.  So, now, I'm very fortunate.  And, that's one reason I'm so involved with the university now.  It's, you know, it's payback time.  You know, it's, and that's, with the kids I mentor, I said, you know, hopefully, 30 years from now, you're sitting right where I'm sitting, talking to a student.  

[00:36:08]
>> That would be awesome.  I mean, right now, I'm pretty uncertain what I want to do with my major after college, and I'm a senior.  So, I'm thinking.  

[00:36:17]
>> Now, this is a history course and that, but what is your major?  

[00:36:21]
>> Criminology.  

[00:36:23]
>> Oh.  

[00:36:24]
>> So, I'm thinking now what I want to do is use my four years of education and go into the Air Force and become an officer at some point.  That would, that's where I'm looking, but I'm still unsure, as I said.  We'll see.  

[00:36:41]
>> Well, that, the military experience ends up being, you know, good.  I, you know, I ended up getting commissioned, and I was in the Army Transportation Corp which actually is a very interesting branch in terms of you're the ones who have to move all the equipment and all the people and, you know, it's a combination of being a shipping line, an airline, and a trucking company, and everything else.  And, except you're doing it when people sometimes are shooting at you.  And, but, it was, a lot of what I say learned that I used as when I got into management was really stuff I learned in the Army.  From the first Sargent we had to the first Company Commander we had, yeah.  It's, you learn a tremendous amount, and it's a good experience.  

[00:37:38]
>> I have a lot of family members who are also in the, who are in the armed forces, so they would be pleased to hear.  

[00:37:45]
>> Now, the other thing is there's a lot of, I mean, in this day and age, there's all kinds of opportunities in law enforcement, particularly now with this, the high tech, the cyber.  

[00:37:59]
>> Oh, yeah.  

[00:38:00]
>> Side to it.  I'm mentoring a woman who's a second year student in the law school, and she's ultimately, she had actually, out of college, had worked in the court system on the administrative side and stayed in Utah.  And then, came back to Penn State to go to law school.  But, so, she's interested, but there's all kinds of opportunities.  For example, the son of my roommate, who I mentioned, has now worked about 15 years with the FBI.  

[00:38:32]
>> Oh, man, that'd be.  

[00:38:34]
>> And, he did have an internship with them during college but was really undecided about joining them in the beginning.  But, he's ended up doing something he never dreamed of because his computer skills were quite good.  And, many of your older FBI people don't have, or at that time didn't have good computer skills.  

[00:38:57]
>> Yeah.  

[00:38:57]
>> He ended up being assigned to the Domestic Counterintelligence, and they are the ones who edit and redact and package all of the electronic, whether it's texts or emails and everything else that are used in all of these investigations of domestic terrorism.  And, they are the ones who, then, educate the judges and the clerks and counsel about how to use this information.  And so, he's, he or one of his people is participating in every major trial, terrorist relating trial, that's going on in the United States.  And, he's now a department head.  

[00:39:43]
>> Wow.  

[00:39:45]
>> So, and that's the kind of career he never even imagined having when he joined the FBI.  So, there's a lot of stuff out there.  So, I would say if you're really, genuinely interested in law enforcement and the, there's other agencies, but obviously, the FBI is doing all kinds of stuff like this, you know.  Just be sure you check that out well, you know, and but, as I said, going into the service in a sense, you know, nobody wants to end up going to Afghanistan or whatever or some remote country in the sub-Sahara.  But, you know, that's, in general, going to be a good experience.  Yeah.  

[00:40:32]
>> Was there anything happen on campus regarding the Vietnam War?  Sorry, I cut you off.  

[00:40:39]
>> The most of the big protests didn't really start until, they began to start in '68.  But, then, they really, the activity, the level of things, went up dramatically once you got into '69.  And, then, you had the whole invasion of Cambodia in 1970 which shut down pretty much all the colleges in the country.  

[00:41:02]
>> Wow.  

[00:41:03]
>> And, you had the Kent State thing with the students getting killed.  So, things got a lot, much higher level, a lot more heated and that once you got into '69, '70, '71, and kind of laughingly, I mean, there was an SDS chapter.  And, which they said wasn't exactly like the Green Berets of the SDS.  I mean, these kids were, you know, they were small, but they used to come to inner fraternity council meetings to protest the apathy among the students, and in part, they were right.  So, there was a growing awareness and that, but it, what you think of as the demonstrations of that era, most of that began to start in '68, and then you got in '69 and '70.  We were watching it happen in other places, but at Penn State, it, you know, the biggest thing, the biggest rally or whatever at Penn State when I was there was when we beat Woody Hayes at Ohio State.  
[00:42:07]
That was [laughs] that biggest.  

[00:42:09]
>> Wow.  So, you mentioned, also, eliminating women's curfews and bringing more minorities to campus in the year of '68.  So, what did you have to do to accomplish these big tasks?  

[00:42:25]
>> Well, in part, the curfews were very successful.  The minorities, we weren't nearly as successful.  Going back to the concert thing, because it's all related.  We ended up with so much money, and the president of one of the black fraternities was a good friend of mine.  He was a Poly Sci major, and we ended up going to NYU together.  And lived in the same dorm, and did [inaudible] together and everything.  But, he made a comment the one day unless we get more minorities into Penn State, the fraternities are going to go out of business, and sororities.  And so, we went to the university and said, "How many minority students are there?"  And, they had no idea.  Now, part of this was the Civil Rights Act of '64 and then the Housing Act of '65 had been passed, but affirmative action and that still hadn't really been put into place.  And, keeping track of people by race and national origin was, that just, that just didn't exist in the same way it would later on.  

[00:43:36]
>> Right.  

[00:43:37]
>> And so, we sent pledges and some other students, grad students up to Rec Hall because everybody registered in person at the start of, we were on the term system then, a ten week term.  And so, at the start of every term, you had to physically go there.  You had computer cards that you would turn in for each course, but you had to physically do it.  And so, we had pledges there with clipboards, and frankly, anybody who looked like a minority, that was just check mark.  And then, we went back to the university and told them how many kids were there.  

[00:44:14]
>> Nice.  

[00:44:14]
>> And, that was, I can't remember the exact number, but it was less than 1%.  

[00:44:19]
>> Oh, wow.  Geez.  

[00:44:21]
>> And so, at that point, we had the idea of the Headstart program which has gone, you know, for kids, preschool kids and then kids starting kindergarten or first and that.  We had the idea, and it really grew out of what my friend Jerry Haynes said, too.  Why don't we bring up inner city kids from Philadelphia, Pittsburgh, wherever, Harrisburg, to spend time during the summer at Penn State.  And so, these kids can see what it's like to go to college and see a real college like a Penn State versus what they're used to in Philadelphia.  And, so that was our idea, and we even had enough money we were thinking about building some kind of center for this activity and that.  And, then, the very, the father I had mentioned, he went to Bob Hope, and tentatively, we had Bob Hope lined up to do a concert.  
[00:45:27]
And then, the father of another kid knew the owner of the Philadelphia Eagles.  

[00:45:33]
>> Oh, geez.  

[00:45:33]
>> And so, he had agreed, tentatively and that, that the preseason game between the Eagles and the Redskins, rather than being held in Hershey, as they did every year, would be played at Beaver Stadium.  And so, we went to Ernie McCoy who was the Athletic Director, and actually doesn't get nearly as much credit as he deserves or building the Penn State programs.  But, at this time, you had the war going on between the NFL and the AFL football leagues.  And, they were coming on campus and breaking all the rules trying to sign players early and everything else.  

[00:46:10]
>> Oh, man.  

[00:46:11]
>> And so, the relations between the NCAA and professional football were terrible.  And, Ernie said, "No professional cleat will ever touch the grass of Beaver Stadium."  So, that ended that.  And, although my roommate did go to Eric Walker who was President, and he said, "Well, Warren, do I still have an Athletic Director?"  Because Ernie said, "If I happens, I quit."  So, we had to give up on that idea, and ultimately, we did, then, donate money for scholarships and financial aid.  But, our original idea of doing that, ironically, was coming out of the fraternities, kind of the bastions of discrimination.  And, we didn't get a lot of traction with the university administration.  

[00:46:58]
>> Oh, no.  

[00:46:58]
>> They really didn't, they didn't really know what to do with it.  It wasn't so much that they were against it.  They didn't know what to do with it.  And, now, the curfews, we had a lot more walk.  11:30 curfews during the week, 1:00 curfews on the weekend.  And, the women.  

[00:47:15]
>> That was only for women, or.  

[00:47:17]
>> Only for women, yeah.  

[00:47:19]
>> Oh, wow.  

[00:47:19]
>> And, although you had much because you didn't have a lot of apartments, there were much fewer men who lived downtown.  But, no women.  They had to live in the dorms the whole four years, and subject to the curfews.  And, also, with the fraternities, women were only allowed in the house during social functions, and no other time.  Women were not, technically not allowed in men's apartments at any time.  

[00:47:48]
>> Wow.  

[00:47:49]
>> And so, the pressure started, and with various proposals, and so, ultimately, we got to the point where women could sign out of the dorm for periods after 11:30 or after 1:00.  Now, the problem is that at that time of night, what's open?  Most restaurants have closed.  Bars are open, but most of the women are not 21.  So, they can't sign out for, you know, the [inaudible].  And so, where are they going to sign out for?  And, the only place that was open 24 hours a day was then was called the New College Diner, then.  It's been called the Old College Diner, and I guess just shut down.  

[00:48:38]
>> Oh, wow.  

[00:48:38]
>> And, but, back then, that was open 24 hours.  And so, it did reach the point where one weekend, one Saturday night, something like, I don't know, 3500, 4000 women signed out to the New College Diner.  And so, that was the, that was the final straw of the handwriting on the wall, and then, the process of getting rid of the curfews moved on.  And so, within a year, year and a half, they were completely gone.  But, a fraternity brother of my father had a senior position at the university, and I got a call from him.  I had no idea why, and I get up there, and he proceeded to yell at me.  It seemed like for two hours.  There was probably 20 minutes, but he screamed at me that we fraternity men were turning the daughters and granddaughters into prostitutes.  

[00:49:38]
>> Oh, my gosh.  

[00:49:38]
>> [laughs] So, that was the tenor of things, but the concept of in loco parentus, with the university being the substitute parents for, well, in general for all students, but particularly for women.  That was the concept.  And, that, the university probably defended that stronger than they did any other issues.  

[00:50:01]
>> Well, that's good to hear.  You had the backing of the university.  

[00:50:07]
>> Yeah, so.  

[00:50:09]
>> And, that was actually my final question for you.  Do you have any closing remarks, any last words, or?  

[00:50:18]
>> No.  No, I really, I'm glad that they're doing this course.  

[00:50:23]
>> It's awesome.  

[00:50:24]
>> And then, they had the other course just specifically on '68, because it, they really were pivotal times.  And, you know, today, taking our kids back to Washington Square, and when you tell them what was going on then, where literally, you could have demonstrations several times a week where you had the New York City riot police there in riot gear on buses seven days a week in case a, you know, there was spontaneous.  There were planned demonstrations.  There was spontaneous ones, and sometimes there was violence.  With construction workers throwing bricks and everything, it's, you know.  

[00:51:11]
>> Wow.  

[00:51:12]
>> And, but, literally, you know, you'd fill Washington Square, and you'd have Peter, Paul, and Mary, and Joan Baez, and all them singing songs.  And, my one law school roommate was a very good musician and folk singer, and he played in some of the local clubs.  And, he'd be up there on the stage with Peter, Paul, and Mary and singing, you know, "If I Had a Hammer", and you know.  So, you try to explain all of that happening right there where you're standing, and you know, kids get it.  And, then again, you don't get it.  You know.  

[00:51:44]
>> [inaudible] grass.  

[00:51:44]
>> It's just so very, very different.  So, I think the idea for these courses is great, and I hope that, I hope that all of you doing the interviews, you know, get a, it's a good experience for all of you.  I know many of the alums are pleased to do it, and as I told one of the people, I said, you know, it's nice to be relevant again.  

[00:52:08]
>> And, I appreciate you taking your time out of your day to do this.  This has been great.  

[00:52:15]
>> Okay.  Well, best of luck to you for the rest of this semester.  So, then, you're graduating next June.  

[00:52:21]
>> In May.  Yep.  

[00:52:22]
>> Okay.  Well, you know, just stay in touch.  You know, because I communicate a lot with students.  You know, I'm mentoring a senior now, one of the law students, and I'm actually going to meet a new student who's an incoming freshman, ironically, from basically the same town where my roommate grew up in the old coal country.  So, I'm going to be back for the Iowa game.  And, I'm participating in the mentoring event there.  But, so just stay in touch, and if you've got questions and that, just shoot me a text or an email or you got my phone number.  

[00:53:01]
>> Sounds great.  I really appreciate it.  

[00:53:05]
>> Okay.  Well, I'll expect you to ace this course after this interview.  

[00:53:08]
>> That'll definitely happen.  I'm not worried about that.  

[00:53:13]
>> [laughs] Okay.  Well, great to talk with you Hayden.  Best of luck to you.  

[00:53:15]
>> Thank you.  Have a good rest of your day.  

[00:53:18]
>> All right.  Take care.  

[00:53:19]
>> Bye bye.  

[00:53:19]
>> Okay.  Take care.  

[00:00:04]

>> Okay.  I think we're good.  So if you have any questions at the beginning?  

[00:00:10]
>> No.  No, I'm fine.  

[00:00:11]
>> Okay so I think what I want to do first is if you wouldn't mind talking briefly just about, you know, childhood or growing up and your years before Penn State and maybe what factored into your decision to come to Penn State and then we can go from there.  

[00:00:30]
>> Oh, okay.  I was born in Philadelphia.  In the Mount Airy section.  Moved to Chestnut Hill in the late 1940's.  Went to JS Jenks Elementary School on the Hill and then did Central High School, which is Philadelphia's all academic high school.  Graduated in '61.  And went to the Ogontz campus of Penn state.  That was a deliberate decision on my part in order to save money.  

[00:01:09]
>> Right.  

[00:01:09]
>> My mom and dad had indicated that they would pay for the first four years and I would pay for graduate school.  And it sounded like a good deal.  So we saved a lot of money by me going to what was called the Ogontz campus then, now the Abington college.  Spent two years there.  I was declared as a history major.  And transferred then to University Park.  Stayed in east halls for a few weeks.  And then pledged to Delta Chi fraternity.  Moved into the fraternity house I guess in September of '63.  It would have been.  And graduated in June of '65.  

[00:01:58]
>> Great.  So my first question would be what, it's actually two-fold.  Did you intend to go to grad school when you entered undergrad and was history always in your mind or did that come later and how did you make that decision?  

[00:02:19]
>> Yeah that's, when I was in high school, in ninth grade, as most kids do, I took algebra.  And algebra and I did not get along.  My father had thought that it would be a good idea for me to become some sort of an engineer because he thought I could make a lot of money doing that.  And in ninth grade, getting a D in algebra probably wasn't, you know, a real good indicator that that was a career choice for me.  So he said well what do you think you want to do with your life?  And I said I don't know, let me sit down.  So I sat down and I thought about it for a while.  And I thought what do I really like to do?  And what I really liked to do was read history.  The fact is that I had read every history book in the Chestnut Hill branch in the Philadelphia Free Library in the kid's section.  When I was a kid, I just loved it.  

[00:03:09]
>> Right.  

[00:03:10]
>> So I thought well, I'm going to be, I want to be a history teacher.  I had really good history teachers in high school that you know, just, I just wanted to be like them.  

[00:03:20]
>> Yeah.  

[00:03:20]
>> And so I was a history major with the intent of becoming a secondary social studies or history teacher.  And I followed that career path.  I graduated in '65 with a degree in history.  And then I went back in the fall as an adjunct student and did student teaching at the Upper Merion high school in King of Prussia.  

[00:03:44]
>> Okay.  

[00:03:44]
>> And then I went back, my intent was to go back to graduate school.  I had been accepted to graduate school for the winter term of 1966, Penn State was on a term system in those years.  

[00:03:58]
>> Right.  

[00:03:59]
>> So you went for three terms rather than two semesters.  So I went back to graduate school, actually, they offered me a job before I left Upper Merion as a student teacher, I turned it down.  Because I had thoughts at that point of going straight through for a PhD.  So I went back to graduate school and I did three terms, I did the winter, spring, and the summer.  And it dawned on me that it was, I was really getting tired of being on that side of the desk.  And I really had enjoyed student teaching.  I thought you know, I just really want to teach.  So I was wondering through the hub one day and the Upper Merion personnel director was interviewing.  And I wondered into the room and I really wasn't dressed for an interview.  I hadn't shaved in a few days.  I had a pair of cutoff jeans on, loafers and no socks, a short sleeved sweatshirt, probably turned inside out.  And I walked in and I said "Hey, Cathy, how you doing?"  
[00:05:00]
And she should "Hi, you want the job?"  I said "I sure, yes I do."  And I said "What have you got?"  She said "I've got four openings."  And if you can imagine, four openings in the social studies department in the same year is just unheard of.  

[00:05:17]
>> Right.  

[00:05:17]
>> And I said "I'll take the highest one you've got."  She said "That's 10th grade," I said "Good.  I'm your boy."  And so you know, where do I sign and I'll see you in September.  So that's what I did.  And I was still, I had accumulated at that point I think 27 credits towards a masters degree.  So I finished up the masters in the summer of '67.  

[00:05:45]
>> Okay.  

[00:05:46]
>> And then you know, I had, I was teaching then full-time at Upper Merion, the same place I had student taught.  But I still hadn't given up the thought of getting the doctorate.  And so I enrolled at Temple University in '68 and a PhD program in American Foreign Relations.  

[00:06:09]
>> Okay, wow.  How long did the PhD take to complete?  

[00:06:15]
>> 19 years.  

[00:06:17]
>> Oh wow.  

[00:06:19]
>> Yeah, they were very tolerant of me.  I studied, you had to take one course per semester.  Which I did.  And I would take two in the summer.  And I did that from '68 through '76.  And in '76, by then, I was married, I had a son.  

[00:06:43]
>> Right.  

[00:06:44]
>> And but it was time to take the comprehensive exams, the candidacy exam.  And so I took the summer off from my usual schedule, because I used to teach summer school and I tended bar and I did lots of things in the summertime.  And took the summer off, started to study.  And Temple said I couldn't take the exam because I hadn't fulfilled my residency requirement.  So I went down and I met with the department head, wonderful man named Herb Bess, interesting but he's still alive.  And Herb said we can't let you do this without, you know, being a full time graduate student for a year.  And I said well I really can't do that.  And he said well what do you want to do?  I said I want to take a few years, I want to think it over.  And he said how long do you want?  I said I want to take off three years.  He said fine.  Three years later, they called me and said are you coming back?  And I said is the deal on the table that I can do this in absentia?  
[00:07:50]
And he said yeah.  He said you come down here and take two classes live and he said you take one knows in absentia, and they said you do that for two semesters in a row and he said and we'll consider that to be the fulfillment of that requirement.  So that's what I did.  And I finally got the degree in May of '87.  But they were very tolerant, they were very nice.  

[00:08:16]
>> Yeah.  So I want to go back to your time at Penn State and specifically studying history as an undergrad.  And I wonder if, I'm wondering if there's any like specific course or particular professor that either, you know, accelerated your interest in history or has an impact that you can remember to this day?  

[00:08:40]
>> Yeah I had a wonderful professor at Ogontz named Walter Feree [phonetic].  Dr. Feree was just a really inspirational and just a terrific guy.  And I had him for maybe a couple free classes at Ogontz.  And one of the great thrills of being a history major at Penn State was that I was initiated into Phi Alpha Theta, which is the national history honorary, with Walter Feree.  He had never been initiated into the group.  And when I showed up to the initiation he was there.  

[00:09:17]
>> Oh wow.  

[00:09:18]
>> And I said wow, Dr. Feree it's really nice to see you.  He said are you being initiated tonight?  And I said yes.  He said well so am I.  I said oh my gosh that just absolutely made my year.  

[00:09:28]
>> Yeah.  

[00:09:28]
>> Because he was such a terrific guy.  And there was another professor at Ogontz, his name was John Roberts.  And he was a character.  He taught US history.  He was wonderful.  And then at University Park, let's see.  Phil Kline was an expert on James Buchanan and the pre-Civil War.  He was, he lived out on [inaudible], not too far from Delta Chi fraternity actually, right around the corner.  

[00:09:58]
>> Yeah.  

[00:09:58]
>> And he was also heavily into model trains.  And let's see [inaudible] Graham and John Fontz [phonetic].  Ken Forrester.  Eugene Borza.  There were just many of them.  I had universally outstanding history professors.  And I only had one that was kind of a lemon.  And she and I just didn't see eye to eye.  But anyway.  Be that as it may that was in graduate school anyway.  But undergraduate, I just had the most marvelous people.  

[00:10:33]
>> Yeah.  No that's really neat.  So I now want to kind of transfer to maybe what was happening outside of Penn State at your time there.  And maybe what you and your classmates were aware of, paid attention to.  So I want to start that by, you know, you know, where did you get your news?  Like while you were in college.  Was it at University Park, was it Daily Collegian, or you know, was it something else?  I'm curious about that.  

[00:11:05]
>> No, the Collegian I think came out every day and we read that.  The fraternity house got the news magazines and newspapers.  So you know, Time, Newsweek, US News was there every week.  We picked up newspapers every day.  The Pittsburgh Press, Philadelphia Enquirer, and too I think we probably go the New York Times as well.  So you know, the newspapers and magazines were available all the time.  And there was TV of course.  Yeah.  So you know, the news wasn't hard to come by.  And there was you know, there were discussions in the house, you know, amongst, you know, there were, most of my fraternity brothers were engineers.  And they weren't terribly interested in current events to be honest with you.  

[00:11:51]
>> Right.  

[00:11:51]
>> But there were a fair number, there were a couple of history majors, there were a number of polisci majors, there were quite a few business majors, marketing majors.  And those people were interested in what was going on in the world.  So there were discussions at meals.  In those days at a fraternity house, you ate meals together.  

[00:12:11]
>> Right.  

[00:12:12]
>> Like you, especially dinner.  And after dinner, you would retire to the club room or whatever and we might play cards or we just sit around and talk or whatever.  And you know, for a while before we got down to study.  So you know, that's what we did.  

[00:12:31]
>> Yeah so I want to maybe dive a little deeper into maybe those conversations or ones you had or seen outside of the fraternity house.  Wondering if you remember any like specific current events or you know, something happening overseas at the time while you were [inaudible] that particularly captured, you know, the undergrad population?  

[00:12:56]
>> There's one story, and that I used to use in the classroom, and we've, three of us volunteered to go to an international fraternity convention in New Orleans and this was around labor day weekend of 1964.  And we borrowed a car from the one guy's dad and we headed for New Orleans.  And we thought the cheapest way to do this would be to stay at chapter houses on the way down but the first one we could find was at Tuscaloosa, Alabama.  So we drove down through Tennessee and we you know, we were in Chattanooga and Chickamauga, and we stopped at Oak Bridge and so forth.  We finally end up in Tuscaloosa, Alabama.  The University of Alabama chapter house.  And we walk in and said you know, hi, we're on our way to New Orleans for the convention.  You know, can you put us up?  They said oh sure, glad to see you.  And on the, over the fireplace, there's a portrait of George Wallace, the governor of Alabama.  
[00:13:59]
Well it turns out that George Wallace is a fraternity brother of mine.  So anyway we stayed overnight and the next morning, the Alabama guys oh, we want to take you out for breakfast and we can chat and whatnot.  So we went down to a local diner and I had an introduction to the best way to eat grits.  And I sat there and I chatted with these couple of guys.  And they wanted to know about the problem with integration in the north.  Now this was '64, so Brown versus the Board had been ten years earlier.  So we talked about that.  And it was very clear that their view on integrated schools were a lot different than ours.  

[00:14:41]
>> Right.  

[00:14:42]
>> And I can still remember the quotations from the guy that I was talking to.  His exact words to me were, he said, "I don't hate negroes."  He said "I just don't want my kids going to school with them."  

[00:14:58]
>> Oh wow.  

[00:14:59]
>> Like wow.  You know, this is a totally different world.  I mean I had traveled in the south with my parents in the 50's and whatnot and I was aware of the segregation, but this is the first time I had come face-to-face with it.  So anyway he said how are you guys going to get to New Orleans?  And I said well we're going down through Mississippi and across Lake [inaudible].  And he said I don't know that I would go into Mississippi.  And I said well that's the way triple A has sent us.  I said I feel a little, I feel like I really want to go that way.  And he said well I'm going to tell you, you're driving a car with Pennsylvania plates, he said you're three white boys of college age from Pennsylvania, and he said when you get into Mississippi roll up the windows and go as fast as you can and get the heck out of that state.  So I thought oh wow, I really didn't think very much about it.  Until I came back to University Park and it dawned on us that those three voter rights workers had been killed in Mississippi a couple of months prior to us driving through there.  

[00:16:10]
>> Oh wow.  

[00:16:10]
>> And that these fraternity brothers at Alabama were concerned that we would be mistaken as freedom writers.  

[00:16:16]
>> Oh wow.  

[00:16:18]
>> Voter rights people.  

[00:16:20]
>> Yeah.  

[00:16:20]
>> And we were clueless.  We were just so naive because these weren't issues at Penn State.  

[00:16:28]
>> Right.  

[00:16:29]
>> And they certainly were issues in Philadelphia but I only encountered that when I went home in the summer.  And then you would go back to, you know, that womb that is University Park.  

[00:16:40]
>> Right.  

[00:16:41]
>> And it was just in many ways not part of the real world.  But it dawned on us when we got back and then we started reading a little bit that we had been in the middle of something that maybe was more than we cared to be involved with.  

[00:16:53]
>> Right.  

[00:16:53]
>> But we encountered segregation issues all the way through the south in that summer of '64.  And we were at a slight accident in Winter Haven, Florida.  And the state police took us to a motel.  And the owner said, he said you boys are welcome to stay here.  He said you have free run of the place.  He said do anything you want just do me one favor.  We said what's that.  He said please don't go down to the lake to swim.  He said swim in the pool here.  And we said why's that?  He said because a few weeks ago there was a race riot down there that blacks had attempted to integrate the lake and he said it was a serious problem, people were injured and hospitalized.  And he said and I really don't want you guys going down there.  And we said okay, we'll stay here.  But that's the kind of stuff that we ran into in the summer of '64.  

[00:17:50]
>> Yeah.  

[00:17:50]
>> And we contrast that to what was going on in University Park, which was absolutely nothing.  

[00:17:56]
>> Right.  Yeah, that's an interesting point actually.  I kind of, so did you feel that you know, while you're in University Park or maybe just you know college in general, maybe you know, in the middle of Pennsylvania that there was a little bit of a bubble and that the larger issues happening in the country or in other regions of the country, do you think they were largely missed or do you think people knew about them but it wasn't affecting them so it wasn't really a big issue?  

[00:18:28]
>> Yeah I think we were aware but we knew we were in a bubble.  In those days I'm going to guess that the black population in the student body was probably between 3 and 4%.  And it just wasn't issue.  And it became an issue when we went home.  I mean, Philadelphia had its problems in the 1960's, and of course you kind of felt that and experienced that but at Penn State it was, I've often characterized Penn State in the 60's as being just a bastion of white middle class America.  And you were cocooned.  In many regards.  Because you were in the middle of nowhere.  

[00:19:16]
>> Yeah.  

[00:19:16]
>> I mean in those days, it took five and a half hours to drive from Philadelphia to state college.  

[00:19:21]
>> Oh wow.  

[00:19:22]
>> And now I can get there in less than three.  

[00:19:25]
>> Right.  

[00:19:25]
>> So it was very much rural.  I mean state college itself was just a small country town.  You know, and the campus was kind of fed off of that so.  You know.  

[00:19:42]
>> Yeah.  Okay.  And...  So I kind of want to transition into your time in the Greek community up at Penn State.  Because I'm particularly interested in that.  Did you notice that there was, did you notice a difference between maybe what was on the minds of your fraternity brothers or the Greek life as a whole and what maybe the larger, you know, undergrad was concerned with?  Or did you see that it was pretty similar in that Greek life, you know, in the 60's was largely representative of undergrad population, at least for males?  

[00:20:31]
>> Yeah, this would be a guess on my part.  Because I'll be honest with you, almost all of my friends and acquaintances were Greeks.  Either you know fraternity or sorority.  

[00:20:43]
>> Right.  

[00:20:44]
>> But the fraternity system in the 1960's was so dominant on that campus.  There were I think close to 60 fraternities and maybe 35 or more sororities.  And of the undergraduate population, I'm going to guess that maybe a quarter to 30 some percents were Greeks.  So we kind of dominated the system.  And so I don't know that there was a huge difference in terms of how the various communities of interest felt about issues.  

[00:21:28]
>> Yeah.  

[00:21:28]
>> My experience in the dormitories was about three weeks.  And so I have very little sense of what was going on in terms of discussions of issues and so forth in the dormitories.  But.  

[00:21:43]
>> Right.  

[00:21:44]
>> And apartment life was just not something that I was terribly familiar with at all and I really don't know what was going on there.  

[00:21:52]
>> Yeah.  So the next thing I wanted to talk about was your time teaching in the years after Penn State in the late 60's, early 70's.  What was it like, you know, teaching high school students history which is, you know, intrinsically linked with current events to some events.  You know what the class discussions were like, and how these current events kind of played into, you know, studying problems of the past when there were so many going on, you know, outside.  

[00:22:31]
>> Yeah, well, it was interesting.  I went into the secondary school as a student teacher in '65.  And to be honest, Upper Merion is in suburban Philadelphia.  And it was very difficult to notice really very much interest or in current events or what was going on.  Because again, the suburbs were kind of isolated to an extent.  But as the 60s advanced into the 70s, high school students began to take on the aspects of what you were finding or what you had found in the colleges in the late 60s.  So you had you know, the stuff that was going on in Columbia and Berkeley and every place in between.  And high school students began to feed off of that.  And we had student groups, there were underground newspapers and there were demonstrations and there were movements with regard to civil rights and civil liberties.  
[00:23:41]
And that kind of stuff.  Students wanted more to say about what was going on in the schools.  They wanted more freedom, you know, there was a push toward open campuses and that sort of thing.  

[00:23:55]
>> Right.  

[00:23:55]
>> And I remember the principle, the building at the time, said to me, he said "my job essentially is the principle of this building is to keep the lid on."  And I said well, how do you think that's working out for you?  And he said "Well, we haven't had any riots, we haven't had any sit-downs, we haven't had any violent demonstrations."  He said "The kids, they have used debate and petition and marches and so forth, but everything has been very relatively calm compared to some of the other school districts around the suburbs of Philadelphia."  He said "So I have to think we've done a pretty good job."  And what we did in that school was on a periodic basis, allow students an opportunity to vent.  And we had a closed circuit TV system.  
[00:24:56]
And every couple of months, the principle would go to the TV studio and the school would be shut down for a couple of hours.  And students would be invited to ask him questions and challenge his decisions.  And to be engaged in an open conversation with the school administration.  And that worked marvelously well and that school functions pretty normally, all the way through those tumultuous times.  Because I mean you had the civil rights movement going on, you had the women's movement going on, you had the Vietnam War going on.  And kids felt that.  Especially the war.  

[00:25:35]
>> Right.  

[00:25:35]
>> Because you know, nobody wanted to get drafted.  And when the draft law was finally changed I guess sometime in the next administration, like this was some time in the early 70's, there was a tremendous relief on the part of high school students because when you were 18, you had to register for the draft, and if you weren't going to college, you were going.  

[00:25:59]
>> Right.  

[00:26:00]
>> And when that was removed, you know, as a possibility, things calmed down significantly and you move into the you know, then Watergate came along and that kind of diverted, the Vietnam War ended and then get you know, then you get Gerry Ford and Jimmy Carter and it can't get much more vanilla than that.  

[00:26:22]
>> Yeah.  Really.  

[00:26:23]
>> Yeah.  

[00:26:23]
>> So actually, you touched on something that I kind of wanted to dive in a little bit deeper.  And it's this relationship between sort of the administration, you know, whether it be in high school or here at college, and the students.  And kind of like that power relationship and you know, the students wanting more of their voice or their opinions to be heard more.  I'm wondering if you maybe saw a difference between that relationship between the students and the administration when you were an undergrad at Penn State and then when you were in you know, maybe a different side of that when you were teaching in high school.  Sort of how those relationships were different and if maybe one was, if you thought one was more favorable than the other.  

[00:27:10]
>> Well in my years at University Park, the relationship as far as I know, the relationship between the student body and the administration was rather positive.  They still call it the SGA , Student Government Administration.  Whatever it's called.  

[00:27:29]
>> Yes.  

[00:27:29]
>> The student government was kind of benign, again, it was, you know, people would openly question what it was that the SGA did.  And the relationship seemed to be very cordial.  And other than that, I really, I mean I don't remember any difficulties particularly.  The president of the university was openly welcomed at all events and was openly cheered and loved and referred to as Prexy, rather than president, which was a term of endearment in those days, I hope it still is.  

[00:28:12]
>> Yeah.  

[00:28:12]
>> So.  And then down here in the late 60's, early 70's, in terms of the high school situation, again, the administration in my building was, as I described earlier, was one of, providing just enough freedom and just enough involvement to keep the lid on.  And from a historic standpoint, it's not unlike what the British did during the Industrial Revolution.  Whereby they gave people, they would give a group of people the right to vote.  They would give another group the right to vote.  And it was a very small, methodical process, just enough to keep the lid on.  

[00:28:55]
>> Right.  

[00:28:56]
>> And not get carried away.  And that's the way my administrators dealt with the situation.  

[00:29:04]
>> Okay.  And so that's about all the you know, questions I really had but if there's anything else you know, you wanted to add that maybe I didn't touch on about, you know, this time, your time at Penn State, or if you have any suggestions for current Penn State students.  That would be great.  

[00:29:27]
>> Well you, I know that you said you were in a fraternity I guess or are you in it or are you pledging it or whatever?  

[00:29:35]
>> I pledged last semester so yeah.  

[00:29:36]
>> Okay.  You've been initiated.  

[00:29:39]
>> Yeah, I've been initiated, yes.  

[00:29:42]
>> Yeah.  I will just say this.  I, there were about eight guys here a few months about for a kind of a mini reunion, guys who had graduated in '65 and '66.  And we were very much lamenting what had happened to the Greeks system at Penn State.  Again, for you know, obvious reasons, it's kind of nationwide news at this point.  But one of the major differences I think was that when I was there, we had resident house mothers.  And we had an older woman, her name was Mrs. Christian, who lived in our fraternity house.  If you're familiar with Delta Chi, you might know that, attach to it that there is one story that looks like a one story attachment to it.  That was an apartment where the house mother lived.  

[00:30:37]
>> Yeah.  

[00:30:38]
>> And the fact at the house mother lived with you really civilized the situation to a great degree.  And I think when the resident house mothers were no longer affordable I guess, the situation began to deteriorate to some degree.  

[00:30:58]
>> Right.  

[00:30:58]
>> And we kind of lamented that a bit.  But I was going through some materials that I have here and you know, there was something going on in that fraternity house almost all the time.  In the fall it was homecoming with parades and the contests and all that kind of stuff.  And in the winter, it was Greek week.  With all of those events that we were very big in singing.  And so we were in Greek week singing.  I guess, I don't know, does that still take place?  

[00:31:29]
>> Yes, actually we're preparing for it now, yes.  

[00:31:31]
>> Oh, okay.  And then in the spring was spring week.  And spring week was just huge with all kinds of contests and carnival.  They would set up tents for the various groups that were going to participate up in the upper mural fields which were between east halls and Beaver Stadium.  I don't think they're probably mural fields anymore.  But whatever's there.  

[00:31:57]
>> Yeah.  

[00:31:58]
>> That's where spring week was held.  And we just had all kinds of really interesting things to keep us busy in the various terms and semesters that we were there.  And then in between that, you would have, you know, your regular Friday, Saturday night parties and so forth.  

[00:32:16]
>> Right.  

[00:32:17]
>> And it was just very busy, very active, very, we were engaged in all kinds of.  I think really, really positive things.  And of course mixed in with that were all of the charitable aspects of those endeavors.  

[00:32:34]
>> Right.  

[00:32:37]
>> Which I think still continues.  But I, it's kind of a shame what has happened to the system and--  

[00:32:43]
>> Yeah.  

[00:32:43]
>> And again, I just want you to know that those of us who haven't been involved for 50 years or so still think about it and we all agreed on one thing and that is that the people that we became and the success that we all achieved was to a great extent due to the fraternity system and the experiences that we had within it.  

[00:33:07]
>> Right.  

[00:33:08]
>> Because you had opportunities for service and leadership and responsibility.  And the social aspects involved in it were extremely important as well.  And you know, you just became comfortable talking to people and being around individuals that you didn't know and were trying to get to know.  

[00:33:36]
>> Right.  

[00:33:36]
>> And so it was just a wonderful, wonderful experience in so many ways.  I mean I still have colleagues down here that kind of laugh and point a finger and say "Rich, you've never really got over the years you spent at Penn State."  And I said and what is wrong with that?  You know, it was a special experience.  And my two kids, my wife went there, my two kids both went there and we all agree that if you didn't go to Penn State, you don't get it.  

[00:34:11]
>> Yeah.  

[00:34:12]
>> That it's a special experience.  And other schools just don't have that special experience.  

[00:34:19]
>> Yeah, no.  

[00:34:19]
>> And we did.  And it's just, it's just a really, really unique and special place to have been.  

[00:34:26]
>> Totally agree on that.  

[00:34:31]
>> And so anyway.  I don't, you know, I can't think of anything else particularly.  But.  

[00:34:38]
>> Yeah.  Well, I really appreciate you taking the time again and this is a very interesting conversation.  And I will-- what's that?  

[00:34:48]
>> Go ahead.  

[00:34:49]
>> I was just going to say I'll keep you updated with where this gets posted and how it's archived into the collections.  But it's really appreciated that you volunteered for this project.  

[00:35:01]
>> Well it was my pleasure and it was great fun and I wish you success it was 187?  

[00:35:08]
>> 197 actually.  

[00:35:09]
>> 197, okay.  Curiously there was a course at Temple University taught by professor of mine on 1968 that they established years ago.  

[00:35:21]
>> Oh really?  

[00:35:21]
>> Yeah and I had a chance to talk with him about that and provide him some materials and so forth.  A guy by the name of Dave Jacobs.  

[00:35:28]
>> Yeah.  

[00:35:29]
>> And professor Jacobs was an expert on UFOs.  Interestingly.  But he taught that course for years and years and years.  

[00:35:38]
>> Yeah it's a really neat course.  Focusing on one year.  

[00:35:42]
>> Yeah, there's certainly plenty to talk about.  

[00:35:44]
>> That there is, that there is.  Alright, well thank you so much again for talking to me.  

[00:35:49]
>> Oh you're quite welcome.  And all the best to you.  

[00:35:53]
>> Thank you so much.  

[00:35:54]
>> Okay, bye-bye.  

[00:35:55]
>> Take care.  

[00:00:00]

>> So to begin, do you mind just telling me a little bit about yourself.  Where you're from.  What your major was at Penn State.  And what you currently do.  

[00:00:11]
>> Sure, so my name is Robert Speer.  I'm class of 1971.  I was born in Little Neck, New York.  Which is part, actually the last town in Queens.  So I'm New York City by birth.  I went to Penn State in 1967 because my father was Penn State 1930.  And he said to me, when I was applying to colleges.  He said, you can apply anywhere you want, but you're going to Penn State.  And I said, great.  Fine.  That's terrific.  So I went to Penn State.  My brother went to Penn State class of '77.  I currently live in Delray Beach or just north of Delray Beach, Florida.  I am the senior portfolio managing and the managing director of U.S. Trust Company.  It's the largest trust company in the country.  And my responsibility is to manage the fixed income, you know, the bond portfolios for all clients in the Southeast.  
[00:01:18]
Which is really from Washington to Miami and as far west as Nashville.  So I've been in the fixed income business since graduation actually.  I graduated in '71.  And was fortunate enough to get a job on Wall Street in the bond business July, I started July 1st, 1971.  And so I've been in the fixed income world, this galaxy of fixed income for 47 years.  And it's been my passion.  And it's been my life and my vocation.  And I really enjoy it.  And I, not quite sure how much longer I'm going to be doing it.  But right now I really thoroughly enjoy it.  I was managing the portfolios for U.S. Trust in New York City.  And three years ago they asked me if I would consider taking over the Southeast.  And I said, sure.  I'd like to move to Florida.  I was living in Connecticut at the time.  I said, if I can move to Florida, it sounds great.  They said, no problem.  So here I am.  

[00:02:18]
>> So it's a little bit warmer and a great job too.  

[00:02:21]
>> It's a great job, and it's a lot warmer.  It's still in the mid 80s and big sunshine.  And it's great.  It's terrific.  I live about 300 yards from the ocean.  And so it works in my lifestyle.  Growing up in Long Island, the ocean was everything.  Being near the Atlantic and being near the beaches was how I grew up.  And so this fits my personality and my lifestyle perfectly.  

[00:02:49]
>> Okay, wonderful.  So did you always want to be involved in finance?  Did you go to Penn State with the intent of continuing on Wall Street and in the stock market?  

[00:02:58]
>> Oh, god.  Josie, not a clue.  My intent at Penn State was, quite frankly my intent was to, when you were going to school back then, was, Vietnam played a huge role in how you viewed your postgraduate lives.  It was everything.  And so, when they had the first lottery, and the first lottery I think December of '69.  And it was done by your birthday.  And so I remember, I was a member of Phi Gamma Delta Fraternity, FIJI.  Which is the house on the corner of Pollock and Burrowes.  

[00:03:40]
>> Yeah.  

[00:03:40]
>> And I remember there was 70 of us that night.  We all decided to get, and this was everywhere on campus.  It was incredibly eerily quiet.  Because everybody was near some radio or something that, as your birthday was called out, you knew what your future was.  It was unbelievable.  And so there was about 70 of us in the fraternity that night.  Guys who lived in the house.  Guys who didn't.  And as your number, as your birthday was called out, you got up, and you walked out of the room.  And so my number, February 6th, was number 347.  So I knew I was not going to Vietnam.  And my entire life I think completely changed that night, that day.  And I can tell you that I saw guys whose birthday was called.  And, of course, 10, 20 dates.  The first actually 50 to 100 dates.  And these guys it was really sad.  
[00:04:41]
Because unless you had some alternative, you were probably going to get drafted.  And you were probably going to Vietnam.  So that episode, that transformed everything.  So, no, I was a history major at Penn State.  And the reason I was a history major is because I wanted to be a pre-law major.  Because back then, back in the late 60s, everybody wanted to be, you know, it was all about First Amendment freedoms.  And everybody wanted to be a lawyer because you wanted to change the world.  So I wanted to be a lawyer.  And I was taking a lot of courses in constitutional law.  And when it came time to kind of graduate in the spring of '71, I remember my advisor Dr. Green called me up.  And he said, you know, Rob, great job, but you don't have enough credits to graduate in pre-law.  But you do in history.  And I said, I got to get out of that school.  
[00:05:42]
I said, I, you know, I got to go.  I got to graduate.  So I graduated as a history major.  And, which was great because I love history.  My mother was a history teacher.  And I've never looked back.  I've never regretted it.  I had a great experience.  And one of my mentors to this day, probably the top five people in my life was a professor I had, Dr. Phillip Stebbins.  And he taught constitutional law.  And he was very much involved in the anti-war movement.  And just the, this, what was going on, life in the late 60s and early 70s while I was at Penn State.  He was such a role model and sort of gave me a lost counsel and guidance.  And he was terrific.  And he was, to me and to an awful lot of other people who were kind of finding their way through that time.  Which was really kind of a quagmire for a lot of us.  Was a lot of different cross-currents going on in our lives.  
[00:06:46]
And, you know, we were coming from innocence into this kind of like unknown world.  And guys, people like Dr. Stebbins really helped to give us a little confidence.  And a little guidance.  And a little help along the way.  So, yeah, I graduated in history.  And I had no background in finance whatsoever.  And here I am today as a managing director of a huge trust company.  So you never know.  It's all about, you know, just play the cards as they come and do the best you can.  

[00:07:23]
>> Yeah.  I'm in a very similar boat right now.  History major.  Hopefully pre-law.  But we'll see where the wind takes me I guess.  You were talking about.  

[00:07:31]
[ Inaudible Comment ]  Sorry continue.  

[00:07:34]
>> No, I was going to say stay with history.  History's the foundation for everything.  It gives you a foundation for, that decisions and, that were made in the past, and decisions tend to repeat themselves.  It's just they wear different clothes.  That's all.  

[00:07:50]
>> Yes.  

[00:07:50]
>> But stay with history.  Because it gives you a great view of what was correct and what was incorrect in the sense that history is past tense.  It helps you kind of define what is going to be future tense.  And I would stay with it.  It's, and unfortunately in my estimation, as I think one of the great authors of American history, David McCullough is talking about all the time.  They don't teach American history any more in our schools.  So, Josie, stay with it and embrace it.  And learn as much as you can.  Because I think it's fascinating if you really think about everything that's gone on.  

[00:08:39]
>> Oh, yes, absolutely.  And honestly the professors here at Penn State are phenomenal.  Like, they have helped me find so many unique opportunities that I don't think I could have found anywhere else honestly.  And through projects like this.  This is why I love history.  And why I wanted to study it in the first place honestly, but.  

[00:08:58]
>> I think, I was fascinated when I was first asked if I would consider doing this.  I've always felt, always felt that 1968 was the turning point in my life.  I mean, and I grew up as somebody coming out of New York.  You know, kind of like New York City.  And I came from parochial schools.  And, you know, I was an altar boy.  I was an Eagle Scout.  And the world was great and everything was fine.  And I go to Penn State, you know, this sort of like behemoth campus.  And saying, this is great.  It's diverse.  It's eclectic.  It's everything that I really want in life.  And all this other stuff is going on.  And it's all happening around the world in 1968.  And it really kind of defined every year past then.  And I think about the music.  I think about what we wore.  I think about how we dated.  I think about the social mores of the interaction and the communication among each other.  
[00:10:01]
We didn't have social networking.  We didn't have computers.  We had, like, nothing.  You actually had to speak to one another and communicate.  And not text.  And it was a very, very, very different world.  And I'm glad I went through it.  Because it helped me kind of understand what's going on right now.  I can put it in context a little bit better.  I actually think I understand right now what my parents went through.  Because they were completely befuddled as to, like, what was going on.  And they were totally against all these different countercultures.  And it looked like there was a national nervous breakdown going on in 1968.  And they were both, you know, military veterans.  They just couldn't understand.  And I'm sitting there going, I really kind of get it.  
[00:11:03]
I, you know, there are issues here.  And it's not that we're going to change the world.  But we got to better understand what's going on.  And I think we went from a sense of innocence to a sense of kind of, not betrayal.  But we realized that the war was wrong.  That the, that racism was a problem in this country.  That the war on poverty, it's just a bunch of dollars being thrown at a problem because politicians liked it, you know, liked to get reelected.  And I think we all kind of got it after a while.  And I also think, I will tell you one thing as we get into this narrative.  That I think what really affected everybody were the assassinations.  I mean, we had all gone through JFK's assassination in '63.  And it really shook all of us up.  I'm speaking for, I hope I'm speaking collectively for my generation at that time.  
[00:12:10]
That assassination, things like that didn't happen.  And all of a sudden the shock of that was unbelievable.  And then to have it happen twice in 1968 was, it blew everybody's mind.  It just, you know, what is going on here?  And the justice or the sense of injustice about it was defining quite frankly.  I think it was a very compelling time.  And, I don't know.  I will also say one thing that I was thinking about this interview.  And the one part of it that really came to mind more than anything else when I think about today versus 1968.  Was in those years, all of a sudden out of nowhere, we realized that the media was showing us pictures of Vietnam virtually live from the battlefield.  
[00:13:15]
We didn't get that in, my parents didn't get that during World War Two or Korea.  We were getting this footage from Vietnam that was not pretty.  And the media was playing a tremendous role.  They were showing us the riots in '68 at the national, the Democratic National Convention in Chicago.  And I remember sitting there with my parents, and they were saying, look at these guys with long hair, as my hair is growing.  I kind of, I don't like the way they're getting beaten up.  And they, all they're trying to do is express themselves.  

[00:13:51]
>> Yeah.  

[00:13:51]
>> They're not a threat.  And so there was a real change.  There's like a demarcation between where I had come from and where I was going.  And my relationship with my parents in terms of how they viewed the world and expected me to view the world.  And I was looking at it from the eyes of my peer group.  Saying, there's a change going on here.  And I'm not quite sure that we like it.  So the media definitely started to influence [inaudible] of my generation back in 1968.  And continued all through the 70s and into Watergate and keep going from there.  

[00:14:33]
>> So.  

[00:14:33]
>> I'm sorry.  So keep going.  

[00:14:36]
>> Oh, yeah.  So you were talking about this time period, and you mentioned almost like a shift from when you and your peers started seeing that the war on poverty wasn't what you thought it was.  And Vietnam of itself, it wasn't being fought for what you thought were the right reasons.  Can you pinpoint a time in your life when you saw that shift?  Like was it after JFK's assassination that you and your peers started questioning everything that was happening in the world?  

[00:15:02]
>> No.  Because, you know, we were so, you know, I can only speak for myself.  But I can say that, you know, I really kind of believed Johnson when he said the Gulf of Tonkin incident really did happen.  And it was a justifiable reason for the war.  And I kind of, and I said, well, you know, and I grew up in the context of a cold war happening in Europe.  But nobody really considered Asia.  And so it was kind of like this far place, like what are we doing?  And you have this huge monolithic monster out there called Red China.  And, you know, I remember, when I was a freshman, I went to like a freshman rally.  And the head of the student council at the time, I can't remember his name, was holding up Mao's, there was a book that was published of Mao's thoughts or whatever.  And it was a red, little red book.  

[00:16:01]
>> Yeah.  

[00:16:01]
>> And he said, you know, this is the foundation of how we should be looking at the future.  And I remember saying to myself in 1967, are you out of your mind?  Like, what planet are you from?  And then I realized after a while, like, yeah, I'm the one who was living under a rock even in New York City.  And it kind of, I don't think that was the time that opened up my eyes.  I do think, I think what opened up my eyes maybe was Tet, the Tet offenses.  And all those incidences that happened right after it.  Because Tet.  Martin Luther King.  Robert Kennedy.  Democratic Convention.  Like, it was like boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, things are happening.  And in the meantime there are riots going on.  Czechoslovakia is invaded by the Russian troops.  You know, the Summer of Prague.  

[00:17:00]
>> Yeah.  

[00:17:00]
>> France, the student body in Paris is going crazy at the Sorbonne.  And I said, there are issues going on around this planet.  It's not just here.  And I just, I can't pinpoint the time.  But I do think from the spring of '68 into the fall of '68, there was a radical change in how I viewed the world.  And how I viewed what was going on.  I can tell you for a fact, and you can, you might get a kick out of this.  When I was a freshman at Penn State in the fall of 1967, and I was a huge fan of Joe Paterno, by the way.  My e-mail address says it all, joepa71.  

[00:17:42]
[ Multiple Speakers ]  

[00:17:43]
>> Yeah.  

[00:17:43]
>> I was a huge fan of Paterno, and I knew him.  He was a kid from Brooklyn.  You know, we knew, we actually knew mutual people.  But anyway, when I went to a football game in 1967, we wore jackets and ties.  It was not unusual to see guys dressed up with like a sports jacket and a tie.  And women wearing, like, heels.  

[00:18:11]
>> At the football game?  

[00:18:12]
>> Or like, at a football game.  It was like a social, it was a social event.  

[00:18:18]
>> Wow.  

[00:18:18]
>> And in 19, in the fall of 1968, that all changed.  It was?  

[00:18:24]
>> Really?  

[00:18:24]
>> You could see it.  It was changing.  And by the fall of 1967, forget about it.  And then by 19, when I graduated in, you know, the fall of, my last game, my senior year was fall of 1970.  Everybody was kind of like dressed down.  And it was very different.  And I think with social aspects, that's probably in my mind what I laugh about the most today.  Is thinking about those days going to a football game.  And then my freshman year then my senior year.  It was so different.  Totally different.  

[00:19:02]
>> Interesting.  Okay, yeah.  No, I cannot imagine people in suits and, jackets and ties and heels on.  

[00:19:09]
>> You can't imagine.  Guys were wearing suits with like vests.  It was actually, you dressed up in like the early and mid 60s like [inaudible].  It was, and that's how a lot of guys went to, and the dating was really kind of formal.  There were no white outs [phonetic].  There was none of that stuff.  It was very, and the stadium was only 60,000.  It was a lot different.  It was very different.  

[00:19:36]
>> Okay.  

[00:19:36]
>> But I always remember that was kind of like a, definitely a different change.  

[00:19:43]
>> So kind of going off of that change in the social life at Penn State.  Can you describe that shift for me.  Because I know during this time at Penn State, I was reading "The Collegian."  And from 1968, and it talks about how female, like females were able to move off campus for the first time.  And so I know there was this massive shift in male-female relations.  So could you describe that to me at Penn State?  

[00:20:08]
>> Yeah, sure.  So my freshman year I lived in Tener Hall.  And so I was very kind of like, okay, I get it.  Ten-story building.  Because I'm from New York.  And so I kind of get it.  What I didn't get was the walk through that parking lot during the winter because of class.  That was like, am I in Siberia or what's going on here?  But it was very different.  Because, as I said, there was no [inaudible].  It was hard, even though there were 40,000 people there, it was hard to actually meet, you know, and get a date.  You did it through the dining halls or just having guts to walk up to somebody and say, would you like to go out this weekend?  And that's, I think that's one of the driving forces that I joined a fraternity.  Because I needed kind of like a defined social network.  And so I pledged fraternities.  And I joined FIJI, you know, Phi Gamma Delta.  
[00:21:08]
And to this day, you know, when I graduated in 1971, I graduated with 21 guys.  And to this day I actually keep in touch with 21 guys.  Well, not, well, 18 out of the 21.  And I think it's great.  They're like really, we're still close friends.  The dating back then was very different.  Because, you know, guys in fraternities dated sorority girls.  And you didn't really go, you know, off the reservation and date somebody who was kind of like a townie or living in town or whatever.  It was very different.  And then by the end of my four years of Penn State, you just, you didn't care who you dated.  You just, you didn't even date.  You just showed up.  And just, it was not formal.  It went from being kind a formal invitation thing to let's, you know, if you're there great.  
[00:22:14]
If you're not, that's great too.  So we'll see you.  And it was very different.  

[00:22:20]
>> Okay, yeah.  

[00:22:21]
>> And I liked it.  

[00:22:23]
>> Okay.  So you also keep talking about the media and how the media's portraying these different events in the world.  So where did you obtain the news?  And how did you learn about the different movements that were happening around the world?  And about these social changes that were occurring?  

[00:22:43]
>> Oh, clearly.  The only elements that were available to me were TV.  Everybody watched Walter Cronkite.  Everybody watched, I don't know, Huntley-Brinkley on NBC.  You watched that.  And then newspapers.  You just got it from whatever source was possible.  So it was either radio, TV or newspapers.  There was nothing else.  And so a lot of magazines, you know, we would get magazines sent to the house.  And we'd read them.  But, you know, it was all like week-old news.  And you kind of knew about it.  And maybe a little bit of word of mouth, but surprisingly not.  But you had to find it yourself.  It wasn't as ready available.  You just sensed there was this stuff going on in campus.  And you sensed that there were things that were happening because you saw bulletins on trees.  
[00:23:45]
And you saw something in "The Collegian" that said, you know, this person or that group is having a rally.  And I said to myself, boy, what's a rally?  And it was, I kind of got into it.  Like what's going on here?  Like I remember when they burned down, they had a, they burned down the ROTC building up by Shields Building.  I remember when they torched that building.  

[00:24:12]
>> Oh, I had no idea.  What?  

[00:24:15]
>> Yeah.  During the riots in, oh, yeah.  I mean, my god, I remember when this is, can't remember when they, what year specifically they did that.  But I remember that's the year that the National Guard came on campus.  And they marched right in front of Phi Gam.  They marched right down Pollock Road.  Thousands of them.  And they camped out by Beaver, Beaver Stadium.  And, yeah, because they set fire to the ROTC building.  And my idea of the ROTC building might be different from yours.  But Shields is still there; right?  

[00:24:56]
>> I'm not sure where Shields in, do you know what part of campus that would be on?  

[00:25:00]
>> Oh, way out.  Like keep going past East Halls.  And I can't remember what road that would be.  It goes past, where's the Creamery?  What road is that?  

[00:25:15]
>> Oh, not Bigler.  Let me look on my map.  

[00:25:22]
>> Anyway, you go past the Creamery.  Go like you're going up to Beaver Stadium.  And Shields Building was where they kept all the, at the time, all the records.  It was, at the time it was like an early 60s modern building.  It's still there.  I don't know if it's still called the Shields Building.  But right next door was the ROTC building and, you know, the military.  And a bunch of kids, kids, you know.  One night they, there was a fire in the ROTC building.  And that kind of set it off.  And there was an incident you should know about.  You should research this, Josie.  I just thought about this.  The Garfield, the Garfield Tunnel water incident.  There's a, they used to test torpedoes right on the other side of Atherton.  There's a building where they used to test torpedoes, and.  

[00:26:20]
>> Really?  

[00:26:20]
>> And it's called the Garfield, yeah.  The Garfield Tunnel.  It was called the Garfield Tunnel water incident.  And it had, I remember the picture in "The Collegian," had to do with the famous picture of John Lennon and Yoko Ono stark naked.  And they, that kind of incited, because they shut down, the kids were protesting in front of that tunnel, that building.  And that kind of was one of those incidents that just kind of set it all apart.  You know, I'm starting to think about these different things.  Like where the president's house is.  I don't know even know if it's still there.  But the president's house.  They were afraid that might get, if there were people who might go to the president's house and really trash it.  It was really wild times.  I mean, it was pretty interesting what was going on.  

[00:27:20]
>> So tell me about your role in student activism.  Were you often out protesting with the students?  

[00:27:26]
>> No.  I was kind of like an interested bystander.  And I think most people really fit that definition.  Interested bystanders.  Because where we were from.  Our backgrounds.  We came from basically, at the time we had gone to high school in the mid 60s.  And, you know, we didn't have rallies.  And we didn't have a reason to really, a cause to really [inaudible].  And I think we were terribly influenced by our parents and our peers.  So this was all kind of new.  And the influences that were hitting large campuses at the time, whether it was Wisconsin or Columbia or Cornell.  That very amazing incident in Cornell with, administration building was taken over.  This was all new to us.  This is kind of like, this doesn't happen in central Pennsylvania.  And so I would say that we were all kind of innocent bystanders.  
[00:28:31]
But I wanted to hear what they had to say.  Because in my way of thinking this was not fake news.  Like, this was like a slant on life that I could feel myself, like, kind of protesting against.  Saying, this can't be happening.  

[00:28:51]
>> Yes.  

[00:28:51]
>> But, and, you know, this is happening.  And you've got to open up your mind.  And so I would think that most of us didn't really participate in the sense that we were active participants.  We showed up, and we listened.  And we yelled maybe when you were supposed to yell.  But most of the rallies, tell you the truth, my way of thinking had to do with there was a lot of music.  And there was a lot of stuff going on.  And the music was great and that helped.  That helped kind of put everything into context.  The music at the time was terrific.  And I think, I look back on the music from like 1965 or 6 to 1972 and say that everything else is based on, what you hear today is based on that music.  The music was fabulous.  And I remember one year the Jefferson Airplane played a concert on, at Penn State.  
[00:29:56]
And I went to The Phyrst.  Is the Phyrst still there, the bar?  

[00:30:01]
>> I.  

[00:30:01]
[ Multiple Speakers ]  Not that I know of.  I don't.  

[00:30:06]
>> How old are you, Josie?  

[00:30:07]
>> I'm 18.  

[00:30:10]
>> Oh, yeah.  There's no way you'd know.  But I think it's still there.  P-h-y-r-s-t, The Phyrst.  And it was like, it was a really avant-garde.  Really kind of, really eclectic kind of neo-leftist kind of bar.  

[00:30:24]
>> It is still there.  I just looked it up.  

[00:30:27]
>> It had great music and great people.  And I remember after the concert.  I went to the concert at Rec Hall.  And went down to The Phyrst just to kind of like rehydrate.  And all of a sudden walked in was Paul Kantner.  Gracie Slick.  Joe Kaukonen.  I was saying, oh, my god.  And they kind of played kind of like impromptu kind of songs.  And then they were gone.  It was like, wow, this is cool.  But the music back then was outstanding.  I remember Simon and Garfunkel played a concert.  And everything was geared towards open up your mind and understand what's going on.  They were social events.  Social changes that are happening that are unique to your life.  And have never happened before to this extent and probably won't happen again.  And it was terrific.  

[00:31:27]
>> So Simon and Garfunkel came and played at Penn State?  

[00:31:30]
>> Yeah, yeah.  

[00:31:31]
>> I think they're one of my all-time favorite bands.  I love music from the 70s, it's.  

[00:31:34]
[ Multiple Speakers ]  

[00:31:35]
>> Yeah.  

[00:31:35]
>> So, what?  

[00:31:37]
>> They almost walked off, I remember they almost walked off stage because they played the song "America."  And one of the lyrics is taking the bus from Pittsburgh to, from Pittsburgh to some place.  And when they sang Pittsburgh, the place went crazy.  Started clapping and yelling.  And finally got really, Paul Simon got really indignant and stopped.  And almost got up and walked off the stage.  Like who dares interrupt me during a song?  That's a little sidebar, but.  

[00:32:07]
>> Yeah.  

[00:32:07]
>> That happened.  

[00:32:08]
>> Wow, okay.  So what were some of your other favorite bands at the time?  Or what about the music, like what about the music really brought students together, do you think?  

[00:32:23]
>> You know there was a real clash between, people were still really into Motown.  And there was a kind of like a protest movement that was going on with groups like Buffalo Springfield.  And, as I said, the Airplane was big.  The Doors were really big.  It was kind of that.  And you had a lot of, you still had a lot of the bands coming over from England.  Who were [inaudible] Stones obviously were making definitely an impression upon music.  But I think it was more of, because the Beatles were so, they were just kind of like, they were out there.  But I think the bands and, like the Dead were starting.  You know, bands that were starting to address how people were thinking and feeling made an impact.  And it was great.  

[00:33:18]
>> Yeah, absolutely.  So switching gears.  In your profile you said you were an active member in coming, you became more involved in the counterculture.  Could you describe that for me?  

[00:33:31]
>> Yeah.  I became the, I was elected the executive vice president of the Interfraternity Council.  

[00:33:37]
>> Okay.  

[00:33:38]
>> The IFC.  And I'm sure they still have the IFC today; right?  

[00:33:42]
[ Multiple Speakers ]  

[00:33:43]
>> Yes, yes.  

[00:33:44]
>> And so part of my role was to kind of understand the relative relationship between fraternities, the Greek life and the student body.  And how, because there was definitely a disconnect going into I think this whole movement of the late 60s.  And the perception of Greek life was that it was just a bunch of guys getting together and just like going crazy on Friday and Saturday nights.  And everybody was on [inaudible].  You know, we were just wild.  And I was trying to, what I was trying to bring to the table was the fact that there were a lot of people who happened to be in fraternities who happened to be very much aware of what's going on.  And that we're not the bad guys here.  We're actually, we're not the establishment.  
[00:34:44]
We're actually part of this whole movement.  And not to kind of paint us with a brush that says just because you have Greek letters after your name you kind of, you're identified as being sort of a, you know, a right-wing snob.  It was not the case at all.  So we were very much involved in the student body, in the student government group that was bringing in different speakers.  Different [inaudible] different cultures.  Like with environmental issues.  Race issues.  And I kind of was trying to connect the IFC.  And the fraternity system at the time was making it more of a holistic kind of approach to student life.  And that was my role.  That's what I tried to do.  

[00:35:44]
>> Okay, wow.  And do you feel like were you able to reach that goal of connecting the two different groups?  Or was it far more difficult than you thought?  

[00:35:54]
>> There was a huge disconnect.  And, you know, there was a resistance within guys who were Greek and getting involved.  They just didn't want to because it invaded their social life.  And yet I think by the time I graduated in '71, I did feel that there was more of an awareness by a student at Penn State.  Regardless of where you lived and in what form of housing were you involved in.  The social atmosphere you're involved in.  That there were issues here that you had to be aware of.  And you had to address.  Whether you liked it or not, they had to be addressed.  And, yeah, so I think, did I make a difference?  I don't know.  Who knows.  I have no idea.  But it was a very, very different time.  And, yeah, I look back on it now and say to myself, whenever I went to, besides Phi Gamma.  If I went to a different fraternity, everybody kind of looked the same.  
[00:36:57]
You know, you were all, you were the same.  You basically dated the same girls.  You went to the same functions.  You kind of, everybody wore jackets with Greek letters on them.  You kind of were identified by T-shirts that you wore.  That you had these big Greek letters on them.  And you were kind of like, you were in a club.  And I, it's not that way today.  And it was definitely not that way when I left campus in the spring of '71.  That had really changed.  It really kind of stopped.  It had kind of been downplayed tremendously.  So, and I think that was actually a good thing to tell you the truth.  

[00:37:40]
>> Yeah, absolutely.  So you also talked a little bit earlier about the Vietnam War, and it's presence within your fraternity.  So could you elaborate maybe a little bit more for me on what is was like to be in a fraternity.  And how the Vietnam War kind of dictated I guess the atmosphere at the university.  And in particular your fraternity where there were a bunch of college men who were going to graduate within the near future.  

[00:38:07]
>> Oh, boy.  That's tough.  Josie, it was paramount.  It was probably the singular, it was the singular event on everyone's mind.  At least when I was an undergraduate at that time.  You thought about, you know, when I was a senior, thinking about when I was a freshman, guys who were seniors who were now serving in Vietnam.  You know, the question was did anybody hear from this guy?  Did anybody hear?  And every once in a while we'd hear that this guy from class of '65, you know, was killed.  And so there were these pockets of disaster, personal disaster.  Because you kind of met the person, and you could put a face to when they said, you know, every week on all the news media they would say, well, 5,000 serviceman were killed this week.  
[00:39:12]
And, you know, and 10,000 were killed.  But we killed 25,000 Viet Cong.  Like, there was like all these, like, numbers that we just had no faces on them.  And all of a sudden when you're involved in a fraternity, which is a very close-knit social atmosphere, that you had met somebody.  And all of a sudden you, somebody said, he was killed.  It kind of affected you.  And you realized you didn't want to be in that situation.  The more you heard about these things, the more you didn't want to be involved.  You didn't want to be one of those faces.  And I think that was kind of, I think that was everybody's opinion at the time.  That fundamentally they couldn't find any reason, any correct reason for this war.  That it was more political.  And unfortunately there were people who were being asked to serve who didn't fundamentally want to be there.  But had to be there.  
[00:40:14]
And then it affected an awful lot of people's thinking.  And it affected, I think to this day it has affected political thought in this country.  But at the time going through it as an undergraduate, it was one of these things that you knew was out there.  But because I was an undergraduate at Penn State and Happy Valley, it didn't bother me.  It doesn't, you know, it doesn't concern me.  Because here I am in Happy Valley.  And the closer I got to graduation, and actually that night of the lottery that I mentioned.  

[00:40:53]
>> Yeah.  

[00:40:54]
>> The reality of the whole thing was, it just, it was alarming.  It was a compelling evening.  It was one of the most provocative evenings that I've ever gone through because of being there with this tight group of people.  One radio on.  And there was silence.  And I will tell you on the corner of Burrowes and Pollock where we are, there was no traffic that night.  Maybe there was a car every once in a while that went through.  Everybody went, was listening to that as your number was being called.  So I think the war affected everybody.  Whether primary or secondary, it had an affect on everybody.  And it really did.  And, as I've said, I think the more we were shown what the war was all about through the media, the more we were rejecting it.  Because that was not the American ideal at the time.  
[00:41:56]
It's not what we were expecting.  It's not that, what we were told that this is what you're going to live for.  There was no glory in it.  There was no fascination about it.  It was just, it was brutal and was wrong.  And we didn't like it.  And there was nothing we could do about it except protest.  And at the time I think, you know, looking back on it, maybe somebody heard our protest.  But thinking back on it, it was kind of feeble.  Because you didn't control your destiny.  And I think that was the alarming part about it.  That the one thing I've learned in my life, now, I'm going to be 69.  And the one thing I've learned, lesson in life is that you've got to be able to control your destiny.  And once you don't do that, you know, you're kind of, you're out there.  And back then coming, you know, theoretically we couldn't even drink in Pennsylvania.  
[00:42:59]
I wasn't even 21 yet.  And we couldn't control what was going on.  And it was very, it was a very disorienting time in our lives, I will tell you that.  

[00:43:12]
>> So I also remember reading something about the draft dodgers.  And different petitions that were signed for the men who were burning their draft cards as well.  So can you speak to anything about that, those sort of petitions on campus?  And whether or not, because the Vietnam War was so prevalent amongst the fraternities and campus overall, were people in support of burning the draft cards?  Were they supporting the draft dodgers?  What were your thoughts on that at the time?  

[00:43:39]
>> I didn't see it.  I really didn't see it.  I didn't see any flags being burned.  I didn't see any draft cards being burned.  I mean, to me the draft card was everything.  Because when I went back to New York, it got me into a bar.  Because, you know, the drinking age in New York at the time was 18.  So to me it was like, I don't want to burn this.  Like, I need this.  

[00:44:04]
>> Yeah.  

[00:44:04]
>> So I didn't see it.  I didn't think it got, I didn't see it.  And I don't know, I actually did not see that.  I didn't see the flag being burned or disgraced.  I didn't see that overt signs of dissatisfaction, the drama of what was going on and the theoretics of what was being displayed on the media.  Maybe it worked at Berkeley.  And maybe it worked at Columbia.  But, you know, once again, Josie, we're talking about Happy Valley.  

[00:44:39]
>> Yeah.  

[00:44:39]
>> And, you know, let me get, one of these things, manana.  Let me get back to you.  So, no, I did not see that.  

[00:44:48]
>> Okay, okay.  So you, sorry continue.  

[00:44:51]
[ Multiple Speakers ]  

[00:44:52]
>> Go ahead.  I'm sorry.  No, no, go ahead.  

[00:44:56]
>> Well, I was going to kind of change topics again.  You were also talking about how you were studying law at such, like, an influential time period.  And like it's similar to law students now I would say.  But you talked in particular about Dr. Phillips Stebbins, I believe is his name.  So would you elaborate on your relationship [inaudible].  

[00:45:17]
>> Phil Stebbins was a professor of law, constitutional law.  How we got connected is still like a big mystery to me.  But somehow we hit it off.  To this day I'm still in touch with Phil and his wife Caroline.  They live in Bethesda, Maryland.  He was just sort of a role model.  He was somebody who was into what was going on, the issues that were going on.  But he could talk to us.  He wasn't talking down to us.  He wasn't educating us.  He was sort of saying, let me kind of explain this.  And look at it this way.  And I thought he was a great educator in that respect.  He understood his role as a professor and as a doctor in history.  
[00:46:21]
And he understood what his role was.  And it wasn't necessarily in a classroom.  I will tell you in the, after Kent State, I'm sure you've heard about Kent State; right?  

[00:46:36]
>> Yes, of course.  

[00:46:37]
>> After the Kent State, every campus in America was kind of like going crazy.  And so Penn State made a decision that that spring everything would be pass/fail.  And that you didn't necessarily go to class.  

[00:46:49]
[ Multiple Speakers ]  

[00:46:50]
>> Wow.  

[00:46:50]
>> It was all pass/fail.  You either passed it or you failed it.  And there was no professor on campus who's going to fail anybody.  Because if you failed out of school, you were going to Vietnam.  They knew that.  So everything was pass/fail.  

[00:47:04]
>> Wow.  

[00:47:04]
>> So Stebbins was one of the professors who said, well, then, okay, what's the best environment we can go to to have open and very eclectic conversations?  So he would have them outside.  He would have these classes outside of a classroom.  He would have, one of his classes he had at the Skeller.  I don't know if you know what the Skeller is.  It's gone now.  It was like, the Skeller was like on Pugh Street.  It was like, you know, you go there, and it was like a bar.  And we'd go in the back, and we'd have some beers.  And we'd talk about the issues that mattered, you know.  And he would hold his classes in very different forms.  And that were very, it forced you, because he would ask you, what's your opinion?  He would call on you and force you to converse.  Whether or not you thought you were capable of having a conversation, he would force you to express yourself.  And once you did, you felt kind of liberated.  
[00:48:06]
And you let it flow.  And then it built on itself.  In that respect I thought he was a very smart and very learned educator.  And helped us understand what was going on very quickly.  He didn't impose his views.  But he kind of let us understand what our views were.  And whether we were on the right track or not to really understanding what was going on.  I thought he was terrific.  Still do actually.  

[00:48:37]
>> Okay, so you also keep on talking about the difference between your hometown and state college, Happy Valley.  So how did you, did you think that Penn State and the campus itself reflected America accurately at the time?  Or do you think Penn State was kind of like one of the few outliers where people were incredibly active and incredibly opinionated and willing to protest and speak out?  Or did you see that all over the country, you think?  

[00:49:09]
>> Well, you know, it's kind of, at the time my vision was kind of myopic in the sense that my world was either going home or going to Penn State.  And so I had friends who were all over the country, you know, going to different schools around the country.  But my focus and my real friends at the time were, as I said, my fraternity brothers.  And, you know, people I knew at Penn State.  And so did I think it was the real world?  No, I didn't.  I thought Penn State was kind of insulated.  I thought it was kind of, look, when you're in central Pennsylvania, I don't, Josie, I don't know what town you're from.  

[00:49:58]
>> I'm from State College, Pennsylvania.  

[00:50:01]
>> Oh, so you get it, you know.  

[00:50:02]
[ Multiple Speakers ]  

[00:50:03]
>> Yeah, absolutely.  

[00:50:04]
>> You're the geographic center of the state.  So you don't have the influences of Pittsburgh or the influences of Philadelphia.  Or the influences of Scranton and Erie in terms of what's going on in the world.  And you're kind of hearing it secondhand.  And so, if you see that there are student riots and student protests going on at Ohio State or Wisconsin or Illinois, well, you know, we should have them also.  Why can't we have them?  And, but it was kind of like it wasn't a dominating force.  It was there, and you knew it was there.  When I would go home, go back to Long Island, it was like nothing had changed.  
[00:51:05]
I'd go back to, it was like going back to the mid, early 60s, the world that I grew up in.  Nothing had changed.  And yet there were things that were sort of redesigning themselves and creating diversity at Penn State that I was experiencing from the minute I got there to the minute I graduated.  So I went through sort of this metamorphic change.  And maybe I realized it at the time.  I don't think I did.  I think it was after I left that I realized that I had gone through this sort of seismic metamorphic change in both my life and that school.  

[00:51:47]
>> Okay, okay, yeah.  So kind of continuing with that hometown theme.  So you talked about a generation gap almost between yourself and your parents.  So do you want to maybe elaborate a little bit more on that.  And maybe also talk about your brother.  Did you feel a disconnect between your brother who graduated you said seven years later than yourself?  Did you [inaudible].  

[00:52:09]
[ Multiple Speakers ]  

[00:52:10]
>> Oh, big disconnect.  Yeah, Chris was six or seven years younger.  I mean, he had, you know, he had, at the time when I was in school and he was, you know, he was seven years younger than I was.  He had really no connection.  Because my parents were both, you know, it was very kind of an insular kind of living.  Very parochial kind of living.  And he was going to high school in New York City.  And he had, you know, he'd come out with my parents once in a while to a football game or something.  And he'd see this campus and like, wow, this is like, this is very different from where we live.  And the question was, which one is right?  And which one is wrong?  Which one is real?  And which one isn't real?  And so I kind of realized that neither one is real.  And so I think that was one of the reasons that my life and my brother's life, his experience at Penn State, I think are intrinsically different.  
[00:53:20]
When he was going to school in the mid to late 70s, there was none of this disturbance.  There was none of this sense of change or radicalism or something that was affecting the country.  There was none of that.  His life didn't revolve around Vietnam.  His life revolved around, oh, my god, is the country going through a recession?  And can I get a job?  It was a very different, his perspective on life and my perspective are very different.  We came from the same parents.  Came from the same neighborhood.  But when we both went to the same campus, in my view and I think in his view in talking to him to this day, we went to two different schools.  

[00:54:06]
>> Interesting, okay, okay, great.  So you've been back to state college, I'm guessing, since you've graduated, since your brother's graduated.  Can you tell me about?  

[00:54:16]
[ Multiple Speakers ]  

[00:54:17]
>> Oh, god, yeah.  

[00:54:17]
>> How you've seen it change over the years?  And how it's kind of become what it is today?  

[00:54:22]
>> That's a tough question to answer.  That's kind of a loaded question in the sense that, you know, there are a lot of buildings that have been built that I have no connection with whatsoever.  There is like, once you go on the other side, where to me was just a bunch of golf courses.  Now you've got the whole engineering school over there.  And you've got couple of the fraternities that I knew.  Sigma Chi and Phi Del, they're torn down.  So the campus physically has changed.  There are elements of the campus that have physically changed.  When I go back there, I mean, to me it's still the center of the universe.  I still think state college and University Park, me, my personal life, is the center of the universe.  Because I had such a remarkable time there.  I wouldn't trade it for anything.  I thought it was, it made my life what it is today.  
[00:55:23]
The experiences that I went through.  The people who I met.  Maybe I could have had that same experience some place else.  But I happened to have had it at Penn State.  And I think it's made a difference.  And when I go back to school now, I feel remarkably comfortable even though things have changed.  I feel like there is some part of me that's here and will always be here.  And so there is, certainly there's an attachment that I think is permanent.  And I like that sense of permanence very much.  

[00:56:05]
>> Yeah, absolutely.  

[00:56:08]
>> I don't have that sense of permanence where I grew up, in the neighborhood where I grew up.  I'm really, you know, look, I lived in, once I graduated from Penn State, I lived in New York City.  I would go out to my parents'.  See my parents.  I got married.  I lived in a town about ten miles from the neighborhood where I grew up in.  Lived there for 30-something years.  Got divorced, unfortunately.  And met somebody else, and I moved to Connecticut.  But when I go back to the town that I grew up in, I feel no affiliation or connection whatsoever.  Zero.  None.  I go back to Penn State and it's kind of like, yeah, okay.  I can do this.  This is pretty good.  I like this.  I feel very comfortable, very connected.  I think that's, to me I think that's remarkable, to tell you the truth.  

[00:57:03]
>> Absolutely.  And I so look forward to having that feeling as long as I continue my academic experience here and come back to visit as alumni.  I'm very excited for that.  But going along those lines do you have any advice for students who are currently at Penn State University?  

[00:57:24]
>> Yeah, I do.  So, you know, I interview a lot of young men and women who want to get into the financial world.  And they think that this is their, you know, where they should be.  And I'm not really quite sure anymore.  And I think the advice that I have is learn a language.  Be so proficient in another language that you can tell a joke and have somebody laugh at it.  And I really think that is the key.  I don't care whether it's Spanish.  Chinese.  Whether it's, you know, I don't care what it is.  Learn a language, a second language where you can go to somebody.  Go to a corporation.  Go to anybody and say, they're defining, what defines me, my life and my, what I have to offer versus someone else is that I can speak that language.  And it's something that you can't teach me in the corporate world.  I also would think that, to keep an open mind about things.  
[00:58:24]
I think that what social networking is doing right now is sort of creating, we don't think anymore.  We think in terms of what somebody is telling us to think.  And we're not using our thoughts.  We're not, our value systems are changing.  And I think we need to go back and whatever, wherever we came from.  Whatever we were taught.  Go back to the basics and what's right and wrong.  And be prepared that you're accountable and responsible for what you do today.  But accountable for your actions.  And I don't think that, I'd like to see more of that actually today.  But the key to me is being able to communicate and being able to express yourself.  And I think you do that by understanding where you came from.  And understanding that part of your heritage.  
[00:59:27]
And being able to create a situation that puts you in very good stead going forward.  I really think that controlling your destiny is important.  And I think communication is part of it, very much a part of it.  And also keep in good health.  Staying in good health is great.  Moving to Florida from New York.  I was commuting from Connecticut and Long Island, I say Connecticut into Manhattan every day.  Getting up at 5:00.  Getting on a train at a certain time.  Getting home on a train at a certain time.  Coming to Florida has put years on my life.  I mean, you know, understand what matters.  And the things that matter are very simple.  And they're very easily understood, and.  And I think that's the lesson for any student right now.  Don't be intimidated about the world.  
[01:00:27]
You know, create your own world.  It's there.  And, you know, the opportunity is there.  Just don't be intimidated.  Embrace it.  It's actually a lot of fun.  And there are a lot of interesting people out there who are willing to help.  And you don't have to look that far.  I mean, there are a lot of people who've gone through what freshman and sophomores at Penn State are going through right now.  And who are more than willing to help and just say, look, this is my experience.  Let me try and help guide you.  The same thing that Phil Stebbins did for me I think is important that there are role models out there.  Look, it's the responsibility of my generation who's gone through what you're talking about, 1968, to be able to say we went through that.  We got through it.  And we got through it constructively.  And how can I make, how can I pass this on in an efficient way to someone else's life.  
[01:01:29]
I think that's important.  

[01:01:33]
>> Yes, absolutely.  So we have reached the end of my questions and the end of the interview.  Thank you so much, Rob.  Is there anything else that you would like to add before we conclude?  

[01:01:47]
>> Yeah.  Listen, I have that poster that I had framed from one of the rallies.  And I want to know who, I'd like to send it to Penn State.  And I'd like to send it to somebody who can understand and appreciate the significance of it.  And I wonder if you could send me an e-mail and let me know where that should go.  Because it needs to go back to its home.  And the home was [inaudible] right by Old Main.  And it needs to be back on campus.  So if you could let me know where to send that to.  

[01:02:24]
>> Okay.  

[00:00:00]

>> Hi.  My name is Joe Balzer.  I'm a sophomore at Penn State reporting on oral history with John Stevens.  

[00:00:07]
>> And I'm John Stevens and I'm a former Penn State student.  I was an undergraduate from the -- in the early 1960s.  I got my undergraduate degree there in 1964 and then went on to grad school and the military and came back in 1970 and finished my PhD there in the late 1970 -- in the mid-1970s.  

[00:00:35]
>> All right, great.  You've already basically answered the first question that I had -- what years did you attend Penn State.  So you graduated with your undergrad in 64?  

[00:00:47]
>> Undergrad was 64 and then I stayed there -- since I graduated mid-year -- and I stayed there and took graduate courses for about a year.  And then I moved on to University of Wisconsin for the PhD program, which I never finished because I enlisted in the military.  Went in in 1966 and got out in 70 and came right back to Penn State and finished up my PhD there.  

[00:01:16]
>> All right, awesome.  And what was that -- what was your focus of studies?  Like what was -- ?  

[00:01:22]
>> I was -- at the time when I was an undergraduate I was in an Economics major, which at that time was in the College of Business Administration.  And when I came back to do my graduate group it was in Economics and you were in the Liberal Arts College then.  

[00:01:42]
>> Oh, switched that right when you were there?  

[00:01:44]
>> Pardon?  

[00:01:45]
>> It switched like in-between your undergrad and your grad?  That's pretty interesting.  

[00:01:50]
>> Well, actually I stayed -- my interest stayed in Economics, but basically the Economics Department switched from the -- from College of Business Administration to the College of Liberal Arts.  

[00:02:04]
>> Right.  Okay.  And then your PhD was also in Econ?  

[00:02:10]
>> Yes.  

[00:02:10]
>> Okay.  

[00:02:11]
>> And then from there -- since then, well, I've been teaching.  

[00:02:15]
>> Oh, cool.  Where have you been teaching?  

[00:02:17]
>> Well, I taught at Penn State for a couple of years as a grad student and then I went on to Madison College, which is in Boston -- outside Boston, in Wellesley.  And I taught there for about 10 years and I've been at Franklin College here since -- let's see, I came here in 86 and retired maybe about -- let's see, six years ago.  

[00:02:43]
>> Oh, okay.  That's awesome.  What -- and what was your focus in Economics?  

[00:02:48]
>> My focus in Economics was on International Economics and Comparative Economic Systems, especially the -- at that time -- the Soviet Bloc.  

[00:02:58]
>> Right.  Awesome.  Okay.  So if you can answer this -- why did you choose Penn State for your University?  

[00:03:13]
>> Well, I -- since I grew up in Pennsylvania, Penn State was within my budget.  

[00:03:21]
>> Right.  

[00:03:22]
>> And a relatively good school, within my budget -- actually, I started out -- I did two years at -- then it was the Drexel Institute of Technology, which was in Philadelphia, in Civil Engineering, and then I decided, after a couple of -- they had a program by which we worked half a year and then went to school half a year -- after a couple of long internships I decided I didn't want to do -- I wasn't cut out to be a civil engineer.  

[00:03:55]
>> Okay.  So is -- any other reasoning or just -- ?  I mean, I'm the same way myself.  Like my dad works here at the university, so I get that -- a really good deal.  So there was really no choice for me, you know?  But --  

[00:04:10]
>> Yeah.  No.  -- My decision was go to -- was to switch to Economics because I had done some reading on my own and it really interested me.  And then my experience with the military in particular sort of steered me in the direction of specializing in East Europe and the Soviet Union.  

[00:04:34]
>> All right, that's awesome.  And did like -- did you look at any other schools outside of it?  Like Pennsylvania maybe -- ?  Just like, were you looking for strong Economic Program -- like Economic Programs or like were you looking for more -- ?  

[00:04:53]
>> Well, I knew -- no.  I knew Penn State had a good Economics Program.  

[00:04:56]
>> Right.  

[00:04:56]
>> I didn't know that much about it.  I had some friends from high school who were at Penn State and so when I decided to switch from Civil Engineering -- Drexel at that time was primarily an Engineering school.  And when I decided to switch, why that became the least expensive and the most convenient.  And it worked out.  I was pleased with the experience.  

[00:05:23]
>> It's wonderful.  So, moving on, is there any like particular course or a professor at Penn State that made a particular, lasting impression on you?  

[00:05:34]
>> Oh.  Yes.  I can -- if I think back, I forget a lot of names, especially pulling them up from the past, but when I was an undergraduate why I think -- well both -- especially in the graduate school, probably the two professors who had the most influence on me was -- one was a Professor Edward Bud [assumed spelling] and then a Professor Yan Prybyla.  [phonetic] PRYBYLA.  And Prybyla was a -- he was Polish and he was -- he sort of -- he left Poland quickly after the Germans invaded back in 1939 to spend some time in Europe, eventually ended up at Penn State.  He taught the Comparative Economics Systems courses there and he was a very compelling lecturer and ended up being my PhD advisor.  
[00:06:47]
And I -- it was interesting because during the 1960s he switched his focus -- his own focus from East Europe to China.  And by the time I came back to graduate school he had written a couple of books about China.  And -- which I've developed something of an interest in.  Some friends who sort of supported that interest -- but China became more of an interest than East Europe, or it became more relevant.  And of course today China is probably the most important other country in the world other than the US.  

[00:07:34]
>> Yes.  Definitely.  So did Professor Prybyla -- I think that's his name, correct?  I think I got it correct.  Did he influence your interest in the Eastern European economic systems that you were -- ?  

[00:07:51]
>> Initially he did.  Initially I had a course in Comparative Economics.  And then of course in the 1960s there were sort of --  Two major -- I would say two major trends going on, one was sort of the domestic picture -- in the 1960s was the Civil Rights Movement in the United States and political change.  Of course when I got there -- when I got to Penn State, why John Kennedy had just become President.  

[00:08:33]
>> Right.  

[00:08:34]
>> And I remember being there and -- the day that he was assassinated.  But even before that, what was going on?  We had the Castro and the Bay of Pigs and then the Cuban Missile Crisis.  And the Cuban Missile Crisis was probably one of the first times when I realized that what was going on in the world might have a really, really big impact on us -- on me.  [laughs]  

[00:09:01]
>> Yes, definitely.  I think that we always have that -- a lot of people have that like, "Oh, the world is so much bigger than my current surroundings."  Especially I experienced that when I was in college.  It happens a lot.  

[00:09:19]
>> Yeah.  And I of course -- shortly after that Kennedy was assassinated and I was there for the 64 election and I remember that was -- of course Lyndon Johnson won the election, but I remember that Barry Goldwater visited the Penn State campus and that's when I begin to become more politically aware and spent more time trying to follow what was going on in the world.  

[00:09:51]
>> So had you not had any previous political interests before that -- before you were in college?  

[00:09:55]
>> No.  I was pretty naive, that is, my focus on college when you went to college is -- you went to college and college was going to help you provide a good job, which was very important to my parents and of course to me.  So that's why sort of a -- Economics was part of business but then as I became more politically aware, why I sort of switched more to the areas where I wanted to know more and then eventually began to think more and more and of course that eventually led me to enlist during the Vietnam War.  Of course the fact that I had a relatively low draft number -- see you guys don't have to worry too much about the draft.  It sort of helped make my decision.  

[00:10:52]
>> Right.  I bet that was a huge influence.  

[00:10:55]
>> Yeah.  

[00:10:55]
>> So if you're -- we're going to quickly change gears here and we're going to switch you -- what music did you like?  

[00:11:05]
>> What music did I like?  Actually I liked classical music.  [laughs]  

[00:11:10]
>> Wow!  

[00:11:10]
>> But I remember years of Penn State.  I remember the anti-war movement was just beginning to sort of start during my last years there and I remember going to a Joan Baez concert.  So at that time I probably listened to a lot of folk music -- Joan Baez, Bobby Dylan and of course eventually the Beetles and that, which was interesting because that's pretty much what we listened to when we were in the military too.  

[00:11:47]
>> Really?  Did they like transport tapes out to you when you were over in the military or did -- like to get the newest songs or you just listened to the old stuff?  

[00:11:57]
>> Okay, I'm sorry.  My hearing's not great Joel.  So could you repeat the question?  

[00:12:02]
>> Yeah.  Sure, no problem.  Were you -- so were you -- would they like transport tapes out to you so you could listen to the new songs, the new albums that came out, or would you just listen to the old albums?  

[00:12:14]
>> Basically, yeah I had a -- what's now obsolete -- a record player.  [laughing] And then bought the records and the guys in the barracks we'd exchange, you know music and listen to music together.  So -- but I don't want to emphasize -- music was important as a way of relaxation.  Classical music seemed to me a little bit more serious so I developed an interest -- a little interest in opera, although there wasn't much of a chance to follow that much until many years later when I could afford to go.  

[00:13:02]
>> Right.  

[00:13:09]
>> So music was -- I think I said this for many -- music is, for most people, I think is for background.  And you remember the music that you heard and that helps you to put things in perspective as to what you were doing or what was going on then.  

[00:13:27]
>> Right, that's what I would -- would you use it like as a calming mechanism almost?  Like you'd just -- after a long day you'd just sit down and -- on your bed and -- ?  

[00:13:39]
>> Right.  You get back from basic training -- or not so much in basic training, but when I was in the military I went out to Langley School in Monterey, that's where they taught me Czech, and I remember we -- it was just like going to college except that in some ways it was a lot more intense.  

[00:13:59]
>> Right.  Okay.  And how long were you in framing before you went abroad?  

[00:14:06]
>> It must have been early 66 and I was in the military for four years.  

[00:14:12]
>> Okay.  

[00:14:13]
>> And we were in the States.  I spent about one year at Monterey and some time for some additional technical training and then spent the last two and a half years in the military in Germany.  

[00:14:29]
>> Okay.  

[00:14:30]
>> Which was -- which, compared to Vietnam, turned out to be very fortunate.  

[00:14:35]
>> Right.  Yes.  So while you were over there, how did you get your news?  

[00:14:43]
>> There was a military paper put out, which was Stars and Stripes, which was circulated through all the bases.  The other way was primarily I had subscriptions to a couple of magazines.  I think at that time it was primarily Newsweek later on, but I think that was after the military.  I started reading the Economist, which I still do on a regular basis.  

[00:15:13]
>> Okay.  

[00:15:13]
>> Which gives you much more -- my advice would be, it gives you much more information about what's going on in the world than any of the newspapers or magazines in the US right now.  

[00:15:26]
>> Yeah, that's what I heard because I'm interested in being a Foreign Service Officer for the State Department.  And so like the people I've talked to have said that the Economist is the source to look at when it comes to foreign news.  

[00:15:45]
>> Yeah.  And it's changed.  It's changed with the times.  The Economist has become a lot more liberal than it used to be, just as most of the other magazines.  I remember back in the 50s I used to read Time Magazine, which was considered to be very conservative.  And that changed quite a bit.  So now my major reading is probably the Wall Street Journal and the Economist.  

[00:16:10]
>> Right.  So -- and did you look at news or get news while you were at Penn State?  

[00:16:19]
>> While I was at Penn State?  Yeah.  I -- of course at that time the only thing I had in the room was a radio.  So if I really wanted to know what was going on I'd try to pick up on the -- I'd go on the radio and if there was something that I wanted to know a little bit more about, why usually you'd go up to the library or stop over at the HUB -- still call that, right?  The Hetzel Union Building?  

[00:16:50]
>> Yeah, the HUB is still there.  

[00:16:52]
>> And then they'd have papers, which you could look through.  So between classes I'd go to the desk, pick up the papers, and read what was going on.  

[00:17:03]
>> All right.  So we're going to move on and just -- during your time at Penn State and during your time in the military, what were your like personal interests?  

[00:17:21]
>> My personal interests?  I do follow sports and of course, if you think of Penn State, it's sort of -- I was trying to think this morning who the presidents were at Penn State and I remembered, I think when I was there as an undergraduate, Eric Walker [assumed spelling] was the President.  And then I had a look -- I had to sort of look it up and I found when I got back I think the president was John Oswald.  [assumed spelling]  

[00:17:51]
>> Okay.  

[00:17:52]
>> But it was easy to remember who the football coaches were.  

[00:17:55]
>> Right.  

[00:17:56]
>> Back in the early 60s it was Rib Bangel [assumed spelling] and then of course when I got back why Paterno had taken over.  

[00:18:04]
>> Right.  Was football as big as it is now, would you say?  

[00:18:14]
>> Right now I follow football, especially Penn State football, less than I did.  And part of it is it's -- and this is just personal -- it's become a little bit too commercial, for instance this past weekend, part of the reason -- I haven't sent you a picture and part of the reason is we had people who were visiting this weekend.  

[00:18:36]
>> Oh, no problem.  

[00:18:37]
>> And they were from Michigan State and we go up there to see some of the Penn State/Michigan State games, since that's relatively close to us.  And it's -- when you watch it on TV or -- unless you're there -- and this year there was an emotional contact.  Once you've seen about 100 or 200 football games, they look pretty much the same unless you have some emotional investment.  And that sort of dropped off for me.  I have trouble watching it on TV because there -- the games last much longer, but I still remember fondly, in the early 70s in particular, going up to Beaver Stadium.  We did have tickets.  And my wife and I both attended the -- went regular.  And when we first moved out here to Indiana, by that time Penn State had just joined the Big Ten and we'd been to games here at IU and Perdue and Illinois and Michigan State and -- never been to Ohio State or Michigan yet.  
[00:19:42]
But when Penn State was relatively close we would go to games.  It's been quite a few years since we've done that.  

[00:19:48]
>> Right.  And so -- and you would go to a lot of -- ?  Would you ever come back to state college to go to a game if you were back in town or -- ?  

[00:19:58]
>> Initially, yeah.  When I was teaching up in Boston, a couple of times we came back, especially since my sister was in the area.  And we'd -- we went to a few games at Beaver Stadium, which kept getting larger and larger for some reason.  

[00:20:20]
>> Yeah.  All right, any other sports besides football?  Or -- ?  

[00:20:24]
>> I'm sorry, could you repeat that again?  

[00:20:26]
>> Yeah, do you pay attention to any other sports besides football or did you back then?  

[00:20:31]
>> Actually, the other sport I liked at Penn State, which I do follow fairly closely, is wrestling.  

[00:20:37]
>> Oh, okay.  So do you -- ?  

[00:20:38]
>> Which Penn State has done real well in the last 10 years or so.  

[00:20:46]
>> Yes, I know they're a renowned team.  I'm sorry to say, I don't really know that much about wrestling, I'm going to be honest.  But I do know that they have a fantastic team.  

[00:20:57]
>> Well, I think they won about what?  Six of the last seven National Championships.  So -- and also I can go -- one of the other changes, we do have the Big Ten Network.  So if I want to watch Penn State sports I can -- you know they cover volleyball pretty well, they cover football of course, soccer occasionally, and during the -- and even wrestling.  

[00:21:25]
>> Did you play any sports?  

[00:21:29]
>> Not at Penn State.  No.  Other than intermural during the first couple of years.  

[00:21:36]
>> Right.  

[00:21:37]
>> So when I was there I was pretty much a nerd.  

[00:21:41]
>> No problem.  Okay.  And did you develop any like interests when you got to campus?  Like any different personal interests like from when you were in high school?  

[00:21:54]
>> From when I was in high school?  Well, I mean the interests were -- very much in high school you were -- I -- the focus was pretty much on getting good grades, getting into college, getting a job.  When I got to Penn State and I took a lot of Liberal Arts and other language courses.  So I developed an interest in what was going on in the rest of the world.  And of course Penn State was a lot more diverse than the small community in Pennsylvania where I grew up.  So, yeah.  My interests expanded very much.  And I became very much interested in travel.  And there's more travel available now than there used to be, in terms of student programs.  But one of the things that we've -- my wife and I -- have done over the years, and which I've done is try to do a fair amount of travelling and see the rest of the world.  

[00:22:51]
>> Right.  So where have you gone?  

[00:22:56]
>> Like this year, we just got back last month.  We spent some time in Greece.  Earlier this year we spent some time in Egypt.  Let's see, the year before then, which is -- my wife and I take turns picking places to -- deciding where we want to go.  We were in Southeast Asia -- let's see -- Costa Rica and --  

[00:23:24]
>> Sounds great.  

[00:23:26]
>> Yeah.  And so we try to do at least two or three big trips each year.  As long as we can afford it.  

[00:23:36]
>> Yeah, and that's just like a way of just relaxing for you guys?  A way of just taking some time with each other?  

[00:23:44]
>> Yeah.  No.  That's -- and that's -- right now part of the idea of retiring -- when I retired -- I retired at age 70, taught part time for a couple of years, but part of the idea was so we'd have more time to travel, at least before we become too infirm to do much travel.  

[00:24:08]
>> Right.  All right.  And do you have any suggestions that you can offer to any current Penn State students like me?  

[00:24:16]
>> Well, especially given what your area is, I say, if you have a chance, do some travel.  I know -- my guess is you have a semester abroad program are much more extensive than what they were before for instance.  Where I taught for most of my career was at Franklin College and I became very involved in international programs in which we'd take groups of students to -- we had something called the Winter Term -- for a month, or a couple of weeks to some other country or somewhere.  And we also have a -- try to send as many students as the college can afford to, to semesters abroad.  

[00:24:56]
>> Right.  All right.  

[00:24:58]
>> So if you could -- have you taken any languages.  

[00:25:02]
>> Yeah, I'm actually -- I'm taking Arabic right now.  

[00:25:06]
>> Ah!  Good choice.  Or, I should say an interesting choice.  

[00:25:11]
>> Yes.  I'm a -- so I'm actually going to be studying abroad over in Morocco next fall.  

[00:25:19]
>> Ah!  And that's one of the trips we took last year.  

[00:25:22]
>> Did you like it there?  

[00:25:23]
>> Yeah.  We spent about three weeks in Morocco and yeah.  Morocco's a very interesting -- it was -- it's Arabic but it's a very interesting country because it's different any many ways from most other Arabic countries.  Morocco right now is produce -- they have a large agriculture sector and produce for the European market.  It's relatively stable, although there are a lot of Moroccans which have moved to Europe.  Many -- some of which have seem to have become involved in some of the terrorist movements.  But no.  I remember talking to some of the people in Morocco whose parents spent -- would spend at least part of the year in Europe and then come back to Morocco or send money back to Morocco or they had relatives who were living in Europe, especially in France.  
[00:26:35]
So yeah Morocco's a great place to go.  

[00:26:36]
>> I'm very -- yeah, I'm very excited about it.  So this is moving to what you were doing during 68.  So tell me as much as you can about what you were doing over in Germany.  

[00:26:51]
>> Okay, well I was part of the -- I was in the Army Security Agency and what we were doing at that time was -- we had outposts along the border.  And a particular assignment that we had was to intercept -- listen into and intercept -- Czech military communications.  So we had some idea what was going on in Czechoslovakia.  And the -- probably the one year that made the difference was in 1968, which if you go back and you remember, that's the year of the Prague Spring, when the Czechs were -- decided that maybe the system they had, which was imposed on them by the Soviet Union, they wanted to make some reforms.  They were successful initially but then when they started to make some political reforms the Warsaw Pact countries -- other Warsaw Pact countries intervened and they sent tanks into Czechoslovakia.  
[00:28:00]
And I remember listening and it was sort of interesting because the Czechs were -- on their military networks were sort of keeping track of where the Russians were going.  [laughing] So we were sort of following that.  And it -- the movement sort of just fizzled out and from 68 up until 89, why Czech was one of the least reformist of the East European countries.  But then in 89 and that, why they participate -- once the Berlin Wall fell, why they were one of the countries which was the first to throw out the communists and introduce a new government.  I remember -- well, we went -- although I was in the military, we couldn't go back.  We were prevented from returning to Czechoslovakia for 10 years.  
[00:29:01]
Although my wife and I, we went back through East Europe and we were there in 78 and then in 1990, right after the changes, why I went back there for a while to sort of see what was going on.  And the one area -- the only -- my academic publications -- the only books I've written have been -- and this was what I decided back in 68, and one of the reasons I came back to Penn State, was to research for and understand what was going on there.  So I wrote a book on the post-war Czech economy.  

[00:29:47]
>> That's really interesting.  Wow!  So, you are -- how long were you over there in the Czech Republic/Germany?  

[00:29:57]
>> In 70 we were only there for about two/three weeks.  I spent about three weeks in Poland before that because there was an organization called the Kosciusko Foundation, [phonetic] which sponsored programs for Americans who wanted to know more about Poland.  And I was there in 84 and 90.  

[00:30:20]
>> Okay.  And do -- you think that you got sent to Germany to work on this Czech listening-in operation because you studied this -- the economics at Penn State or -- ?  

[00:30:37]
>> Well, the reason I got sent there was because when I went into the military, just like you thought it might be interesting to learn Arabic, at that time I wanted to learn Russian.  So my request was to go to language -- my last condition of enlisting to go to language school and learn Russian.  They said, "No.  We're not going to give you Russian.  We're going to give you Czech," which turned out to be pretty fortunate because the only place that they send Czech linguists was to West Germany.  

[00:31:12]
>> Right.  

[00:31:14]
>> And I was -- my job there was to sort of put together the order of battle for the Czech [unintelligible].  And it was also interesting because you also learn a lot about Germany.  So I knew enough German since I came from the Pennsylvania-Dutch area and took a couple of years in high school of German, that my wife and I, we lived on the economy and were able to do a lot of travelling when we were there.  

[00:31:49]
>> Right.  So your wife was with you during your -- ?  

[00:31:55]
>> Yes.  When I went to Wisconsin my wife was there.  She was in the math education.  

[00:32:03]
>> Okay.  

[00:32:05]
>> And when we went to Germany she came over as my dependent and then she found a job in the American schools there, which were teaching the children of American Servicemen.  And when I came back I came back as her dependent.  

[00:32:28]
>> Okay.  

[00:32:28]
>> Because I took an overseas out and stayed over there for about a half year after I left the army because she was finishing her year of teaching.  

[00:32:39]
>> Right.  

[00:32:40]
>> And then we came right back to Penn State.  

[00:32:43]
>> And you -- ?  Okay, awesome.  So what prompted you to leave school?  Leave Wisconsin and join the military?  

[00:32:51]
>> Well, I think I had to make a choice that is the -- at that time, one way in which you could postpone military service was to be in grad school.  And I'd been in -- I don't know how many years you've been there, but I'd been a student for so many years and all these things were changing and I figured I had to make some sort of a decision, you know?  Do I stay in grad school and try to avoid military service or do I become involved and join?  And my choice was to join.  

[00:33:32]
>> Okay, so you were -- you wanted a break from school or you wanted to actually be involved?  

[00:33:42]
>> Well, it was a combination where I thought it was probably -- a lot of the other -- a lot of my friends and others I know during the 60s and -- had to make choices and one of the choices was, if you left school and you went to work, there was a chance you would be drafted, or you could enlist.  And one of the advantages of enlisting at that time, regardless of what your political position was, is you got -- you could choose a little bit as to what you might do in the military.  And since I wanted to learn more about what was going on in the world, I figured learning an additional language -- learning Russian would be useful, just like you thought Arabic was.  I remember in the 60s, when I got my undergraduate degree, one of the choices -- well, do you go to graduate school or do you get a job.  
[00:34:43]
And when I went into the -- when I was looking for a job there were -- one was in the private sector or one was in the government.  And I think the two places where I had options at that time, as I followed up in the 60s, was I could go to I think Ford Motor Company and the other was the CIA.  

[00:35:10]
>> Wow.  

[00:35:11]
>> And instead I decided to continue graduate school.  

[00:35:18]
>> Right.  Okay, so what was it like when you were coming back to -- when you started a PhD program?  Like -- ?  

[00:35:27]
>> You mean when I came back in the 70s?  

[00:35:30]
>> Yeah, transitioning back from military?  

[00:35:31]
>> Yeah.  Like I said, we got some information about the States.  So we knew pretty much about what was happening on some of the college campuses.  In fact, on the University of Wisconsin campus, my wife was in the math program there, and one of the build -- I think about one year after we were in Germany, one of -- there was a bombing at one of the math buildings because of some of the research they were doing.  What I was hearing was that many of the campuses were somewhat in-flux.  There were demonstrations.  I remember when I came back and started at Penn State, there were still demonstrations pretty much against the Vietnam participation.  In fact, when we came over -- it's interesting, when you're abroad, and since we were abroad for two and a half years, what you hear is very different from going on, that is, at that time I thought we were coming back to a country which was in almost complete disarray based on what I read in the papers and what the perception was over there from Germans and some of the Europeans, that basically the environment was going to hell, demonstrations, politics -- of course 1968 was -- as your history would tell, both political and otherwise, was a really different year.  
[00:37:20]
You had the Democratic Convention and all the demonstrations there.  You had the -- what's -- Johnson deciding not to run for reelection.  You had the election between Nixon and Humphry and the demonstrations that you -- in some ways -- it reminds me a little bit of what's happening right now, although the issues are somewhat different and the focus is less on the Cold War, which was -- that was the international issue.  And part of what motivated me is, the more I knew about economics, the more I knew that the Soviet-type system and then later the -- at least in China in those years, and those were the years when you had the great feet forward and the cultural revolution.  
[00:38:21]
So in -- both in Russia and China and other, you had millions of people who were put down because of the changing political system.  And then I compared it with the market system, which for all its flaws, seems to have operated much, much better.  So I became very -- as an economist, I became what I call more of a free-market economist and less of a government operated.  I developed a -- somewhat of a distrust of government that when we're -- government has the ultimate power and I think it important to put -- just as we did in the Constitution, to place some limits on what government can do.  
[00:39:21]
So yes, during the 60s that period, sort of my political views were formed.  

[00:39:29]
>> Okay, wow.  And while you were over there in West Germany, did you notice a different -- I mean from what you read in the papers, did you notice a different protest environment over in Europe as opposed to the United States, or like, I don' t know if you had -- compared to -- ?  

[00:39:48]
>> Well, I was there -- we were there in the late 60s and Germany was just starting to emerge from its -- from the war time period.  So the economy was doing -- especially compared to other European countries, had recovered fairly much.  And German -- well, in Germany you had the -- in the 60s and then the period that we were there, you had sort of the same issues that you had in the United States, you had demonstrations, you had groups which were basically tried to make some changes by -- through the use of terror and you had this -- you were in a situation -- well, we were very close -- not to where the wall was in Berlin, but you had these fortified frontiers.  
[00:40:58]
And the one thing you could see, especially if you were in Germany, is the difference between what was happening in East Germany and what was happening in West Germany.  And again, this just sort of reinforced by own views.  

[00:41:14]
>> Right.  Okay.  

[00:41:15]
>> And so was the attitude towards the Vietnam War among your fellow soldiers different than that of the American public, would you say?  

[00:41:30]
>> Yeah, I think most of the people I worked with, some had -- some were career military, some had spent some time in Vietnam, and there was a certain amount of disillusion with what we were doing in Vietnam.  And at the same time there was no great enthusiasm for the alternative or for the -- let's say draft changes in the US government.  The view was sort of the changing policy.  One of the generalizations I'd make, and as I've talked to people, never get involved in civil wars.  That is, almost all of the engagements we've had since the end of World War II -- Korea, Vietnam, even the Mid-East, much of -- you know the first Gulf War was really between countries and that, but then when we got involved in Syria you really became involved in domestic politics and a civil war.  
[00:42:51]
And it's -- when you're in situations like that it's very difficult to come in and make changes because it's their country, it's their problem, you can support or you can do other things, but you probably don't send, you know military and try to militarily change the balance.  But you can think about that as you look at some of the history of our foreign policy over the last 50 plus years.  

[00:43:35]
>> Right.  Yes.  All right.  That's the end of my questions.  Is there any other thing that you want to talk about right now, or -- ?  

[00:43:43]
>> Okay, well let me just ask this -- given what's going on politically, most campuses, I know even Franklin, which is a small Liberal Art school here where I've been teaching and this, most campuses seem -- I've recently become -- how would I say it -- less open to different ideas.  And as I read the Wall Street Journal and some of the -- of course they take some of the situations on campuses where there've been attempts to shout down speakers, to limit what can be discussed, does that seem to be an issue at Penn State now?  

[00:44:36]
>> I don't necessarily think so.  I think there's definitely like -- last year there was a problem, people put up very far right posters.  Which could be considered as racist or sexist.  And Penn State shut that down, but I think there's a general -- at least in my experience -- willingness to participate in political discussion.  You know in classes that I've had, you know there's always those professors that will try to push their views on their students.  

[00:45:15]
>> I know.  Yeah.  

[00:45:15]
>> There are a few professors that are very open to having a discussion and they won't -- they'll speak their mind, but they will happily get challenged by a student and happily have a discussion with them.  But -- so I think it's a really good environment for discussions and having differing opinions but not alienating each other, having debates not just arguments.  

[00:45:46]
>> Yeah.  No.  And that's what colleges and universities are supposed to do.  They're supposed to give people the chance -- with a lot of different views, whether their urban, whether their rural -- you know come from rural areas, conservative families, [unintelligible] to talk to each other and sort of iron out what -- you know what your views might be, whether it be structure of government, what policies, religion and so on.  So I'm glad you say that because part of my perception has been -- and I worry about this -- is that the higher education in the United States has become less open than what it was back in the 60s or the 50s.  And I hope I'm wrong.  

[00:46:45]
>> Did you have a similar experience to me when you were at Penn State?  

[00:46:50]
>> Did I ever what?  

[00:46:51]
>> Did you have like a similar experience with the political discourse or discussions at Penn State when you were there?  

[00:46:57]
>> Well, most of the classes I had -- politics was not a prime part.  I remember I got -- in some of the economics classes, especially during the 60s, those were the years Lyndon Johnson started the Great Society and the War on Poverty, and we had some really good discussions on what it was possible to do, what you could do, what's the best way to approach that.  I didn't take any -- I think I had one political science course at Penn State.  And that was just -- I shouldn't say just, but that was basically on what the structure of the US Government is and who did what and what the responsibilities were.  And somehow -- well, in some ways even that has changed because, for instance, last month or so has been -- the papers have been filled with the Kavanaugh situation, appointment to the Supreme Court.  
[00:48:05]
And at least what I remember from Political Science, it always seemed to me that the Supreme Court, the role was to make -- to sort of act as a check on the other two branches of government -- the Congress and the Executive Branch -- and to place limits on what they can do, especially that -- if they seem to be in opposition to the provisions of the Constitution.  But I never saw the -- the way it seems to have become in the last 20 years or so is that the Supreme Court has become more of a -- people look to it more as a policy-making part of the government rather than the check or the judicial part.  And that I don't think is right.  But those are political -- [laughing] That's not why we talked.  

[00:49:09]
>> Right.  

[00:49:10]
>> Anyway, it's good to talk to somebody who is taking courses in Political Science and History because there's so many possibilities there now.  

[00:49:22]
>> Yes, definitely.  So if there's something else that you want to discuss.  I'm going to go ahead and stop the recording.  

[00:49:31]
>> Okay.  

[00:49:32]
>> Wrap up once we're done recording.  

[00:49:36]
>> Okay.  One question.  Yeah, okay.  If you want to stop the recording, I still have a question concerning your project.  

[00:00:01]

>> Hello.  My name is Joseph Ben Wallace, and I am here with Bill Himmelsbach, an alumni from Penn State, and today we're just going to be talking about his experience at Penn State attending school here.  Would you like to introduce yourself, Bill?  

[00:00:17]
>> Yes, I'm Bill Himmelsbach, class of 1968, BA major then called labor management relations.  

[00:00:27]
>> Oh, nice.  Where are you from, and where did you grow up, Bill?  

[00:00:30]
>> I grew up in Wisconsin.  

[00:00:33]
>> Oh, nice.  What was that like?  

[00:00:37]
>> Cold.  

[00:00:38]
>> Right.  

[00:00:38]
>> Upper Midwest.  Very conservative Christian community, yes.  

[00:00:44]
>> I see.  What is your current profession at this time?  

[00:00:49]
>> Well, currently I'm retired.  I've been retired since let's see, so six years ago I retired.  

[00:00:55]
>> Oh, nice.  What from?  

[00:00:58]
>> I had graduated from Penn State and was able to immediately go to graduate school.  I went to the University of Pittsburg, got my Masters in public health with a major in hospital or healthcare administration, and 42 years later that was my whole career.  

[00:01:13]
>> Oh, that's impressive.  Congratulations.  

[00:01:17]
>> It was mainly in hospitals, health systems, and academic medicine.  

[00:01:21]
>> I see.  What led you to pursue this profession?  Was it a personal thing or another interest?  

[00:01:29]
>> You mean healthcare administration?  

[00:01:31]
>> Yes.  

[00:01:33]
>> Well, I grew up with a guy I went to grade school and high school with who was, his father was the administrator of the clinic hospital where my dad practiced.  My dad was a physician, and I didn't want to be a physician, but I wanted to be close to medicine, and I found out about this field called hospital administration in my junior year at Pennsylvania State.  

[00:01:54]
>> Oh, nice.  Do you mind giving me a brief history of your professional life?  How did you get where you are now and like did you enjoy it and things like that?  

[00:02:03]
>> Yeah, it's very, healthcare is very rewarding, and for what, 36 of those 42 years I was a CEO of various organizations and thought I did well, and part of my return to society, if you may, is I'm currently on four not-for-profit boards in healthcare.  

[00:02:25]
>> That is amazing.  

[00:02:27]
>> Yeah, I enjoy doing that, and it keeps me focused and busy, but I still have time to play golf and play bridge with my wife and enjoy retirement.  

[00:02:37]
>> Oh, I bet.  How long have you and your wife been married?  

[00:02:40]
>> Well, my wife and I have been married about 23 years, and then we were each married for about 25 years.  We were widowed, and we met and got married, and I have one child, and she has three.  

[00:02:54]
>> Oh, that's a big family you got there.  

[00:02:57]
>> Yes.  

[00:02:58]
>> What would you consider the height of your career?  What are you most proud of professionally?  

[00:03:05]
>> Well, I think part of my reputation I was able to turn around organizations either strategically or financially, and with that, working well with physicians, because physicians don't like to be told no but yet sometimes have to move them in that direction, and I thought I had a good strong spot in my career doing that.  

[00:03:26]
>> I see.  Moving onto Penn State, why did you choose Penn State.  Again, was it a personal or other interests?  

[00:03:35]
>> Well, my parents were both from the East, Massachusetts and DC, and I wanted to go east for school, but I didn't want a big city.  

[00:03:44]
>> Understandable.  

[00:03:47]
>> Penn State, as we called it back then, was centrally isolated.  

[00:03:51]
>> Oh yeah.  

[00:03:52]
>> And the other attraction of Penn State was on the, I don't think they have it, was on the quarters, you know, three terms equal two semesters.  

[00:04:00]
>> Right, right, I know what you're talking about.  

[00:04:02]
>> Yeah, and it was 10-week terms, which were nice because you take three, maybe four courses, and you'd really concentrate, and, you know, classes were 90 minutes a piece, and so you kind of got it done.  

[00:04:14]
>> Right, right.  

[00:04:14]
>> And that was the, that was the attraction.  

[00:04:18]
>> That's amazing.  Now, I already asked you about your major.  At your time at Penn State, did you have a specific instructure, instructor, I'm sorry, who inspired you or motivated you to do big things?  

[00:04:33]
>> Yeah, the chairman of the department, LMR, Labor Management Relations, which was pretty small department because they farmed out to economics or history or whatever.  You know, like for instance, the course on labor history was done in the history department, the course in labor economics was done in the econ department.  So you got a taste of various departments within the school or the college of liberal arts I should say.  And the chairman of the department, his last name was Godlieb, I forget his first name, but he was very inspiring.  I took a couple Capstone courses that he taught, seminar-type courses, and he really made you think, critically thing.  

[00:05:18]
>> That's very cool.  How did you receive your news back then?  Like did you have a preferred source?  Did you read The Collegian a lot?  Other types of media?  

[00:05:30]
>> The Collegian was about the only source back then.  I think there was a campus radio station, but I don't think it was well listened to, but it was, it was The Collegian, and everybody, I think it was published five or six times a week, that's what everybody grabbed.  

[00:05:47]
>> Nice.  That's impressive.  As you may know, 1968 was a very important year in the world.  Numerous students and everyone in general started voicing their opinions and standing up for what they believed in, and Penn State was even shut down at a time due to student protesting.  What involvement or participation did you engage in relating to protests on campus, if you did at all?  

[00:06:11]
>> Well, my senior year I was a dorm counselor.  

[00:06:13]
>> Right.  

[00:06:14]
>> A resident hall counselor, so you didn't want to get involved in any of that.  I don't remember being shut down in '67/'68, so it may have been '68/'69 or something.  

[00:06:26]
>> Right.  

[00:06:26]
>> I finished in the Spring of '68.  Penn State was, I would say it was pretty conservative compared to what you heard was going on at Columbia and these other schools.  We had a pretty strong, aggressive dean of men/dean of women's office, and the story was that they had cameras around, and they took you picture or something and they identified you, you were out of school, and you know, you'd hear of students to which that had happened, yeah.  It was an interesting story.  When I was a senior as a dorm counselor, I had a group of freshman, three or freshman come to me and said, is it okay if we go down and picket SDS, who was picketing Dow Chemical, which led you to believe, you know, they were pro, I don't want to say they were pro-war, but they were anti anti-war.  

[00:07:23]
>> Right, right.  

[00:07:25]
>> Yeah.  So it was a pretty-- and of course the answer was yes, you can do that, just don't get in any trouble--  

[00:07:33]
>> Right.  

[00:07:34]
>> In doing that, yeah.  We also had, I don't know if it was my junior year, I think it was my junior year, we had a student council election, and a fellow ran on the silent majority theme, a campaign, and then when he didn't get the votes to become president, the student council declared victory because he said X thousands of students did not vote for him.  

[00:08:00]
>> Oh, that's funny.  

[00:08:01]
>> Yeah, yeah.  I mean he was just making a joke out of the whole thing.  So there was a lack of I would call seriousness, if you may, yeah.  

[00:08:09]
>> Okay.  

[00:08:10]
>> The other thing that, probably one of the more significant things that happened, when I was, again, my senior year a dorm counselor, I had a, they had a rule then, all freshman had to live on campus.  

[00:08:22]
>> Right.  

[00:08:23]
>> And there was a fellow that had finished his tour of duty with the Green Berets.  

[00:08:30]
>> Okay.  

[00:08:30]
>> And he was like six three, 220, and he had to live on campus.  And it was like caging an animal.  He just, you know, didn't--  

[00:08:40]
>> Understandable, yeah.  

[00:08:42]
>> That led the dean of men, I petitioned and said this guy's got to live on his own, I mean he's killed people [inaudible].  

[00:08:50]
>> Right, right.  

[00:08:51]
>> And so, that led them to consider that if you're 18 and from wherever out of high school that's one thing, but if you're 22, 23, and being discharged from the military, it's something else.  

[00:09:02]
>> Right.  No, that's understandable.  

[00:09:05]
>> I think if you were married you didn't have to live on campus, but he was single.  

[00:09:09]
>> Right.  And you said that you were the one that petitioned that?  

[00:09:13]
>> Yes, because we worked for, I was in East Halls, does that still exist?  

[00:09:19]
>> Yeah, East Halls, do you mind telling me which hall, if you can remember?  

[00:09:21]
>> I can't remember.  

[00:09:23]
>> Oh, it's okay.  

[00:09:24]
>> Fifty years, well.  Each complex had an assistant dean, if you may, it was a graduate student, or no, not a graduate student, maybe like and adjunct professor, I mean an assistant professor, you know, a fledging faculty member, who was doing this as part of their compensation, and then they reported to the dean of men.  So we had a pretty direct line to the dean of men.  

[00:09:50]
>> Right, right.  

[00:09:51]
>> Through the dorm area chiefs, yeah.  

[00:09:54]
>> Okay.  So you were the one that talked to him and was like, I feel as if--  

[00:10:00]
>> You got to, yeah, you got to talk to this guy, you got to sense the situation, yeah.  

[00:10:06]
>> Right, right.  Did he end up moving, or did he spend the rest of his freshman year?  

[00:10:10]
>> No, it was his first term, and he was allowed to move out the start of the second term, which-- so the first term was like late September through early December and then, so the second term started after the Christmas holidays.  

[00:10:23]
>> I see.  Going back to like the, not as much protesting and like the anti anti-war, do you remember some of your stances on certain ideals back then?  Like what were your interests politically wise?  

[00:10:38]
>> Well, I really didn't have many because we were all focused on do we have to serve in the army.  

[00:10:45]
>> Right.  

[00:10:45]
>> Because of the draft.  

[00:10:47]
>> Understandable.  

[00:10:48]
>> Then if you didn't, what were you going to do, because there was a heavy emphasis on getting a job, yeah.  So it was, shall we say it was very practical?  

[00:10:59]
>> Right, right.  And so you said there wasn't as many protests that you can remember.  Did any of your friends or like classmates attempt to like get you to have a conversation with them and things like that about these certain aspects?  Not that I recall.  There didn't seem to be a strong anti-war group on campus.  If it was, you know, it just passed us by, I guess.  I think the biggest challenge we had a dorm counselor come early springtime was the so-called panty raids.  I don't know if they still had those or not.  

[00:11:37]
>> What is that, if you don't me asking.  

[00:11:39]
>> Well, where the boys would storm the girls' dorm and get in and, you know, your objective was to grab some panties [phonetic].  

[00:11:46]
>> Oh, that's hilarious.  

[00:11:49]
>> Yeah, now, of course, you know, with the Me Too movement, that'd be, you know, terribly outrageous and appropriately so, but that was the big, and that was an historic thing, you know.  

[00:11:59]
>> Yeah.  

[00:12:00]
>> It had been going on for years and years, so it wasn't something that just came up in the time I was there.  

[00:12:05]
>> Right.  Do you believe that the political climate in 1968 and prior on campus as told today was exaggerated?  For example, when told, like when I was in class we were told that University Park was shut down due to protesting, and it's assumed that when it says like that, and I remember you said that you weren't on campus when it was shut down, that it was assumed that a majority of campus protested when in reality only about 3000 or 30 or so thousand students protested.  So do you think that as you were on campus and how it's told today it was exaggerated?  

[00:12:48]
>> Well, they tell the story that if all the people who claimed that their relatives came over on the Mayflower from England the boat would have never left the harbor in England.  

[00:12:57]
>> Right, right.  It had been overloaded, so yeah, I think there's some exaggeration about it, yeah.  I just don't remember it, frankly, and I don't remember that the dorms food halls were closed down or we had limited meals because they couldn't get supplies in or, you know, nothing like that now.  We could get to class.  I mean I don't remember being, you know, geez we can't get into the building because, you know, people are sitting on the steps in protest, no.  

[00:13:27]
>> Yeah.  Do you think that Penn State has changed since you have attended and, if so, in what ways?  

[00:13:35]
>> Well, I just, well [inaudible] alum, I just really haven't spent any, I think I came back in '87 maybe, for once, and that was about it.  Graduated--  

[00:13:44]
>> Oh, so you haven't been on campus since?  

[00:13:46]
>> No, no.  And usually what happens, Joseph, was when you go to a graduate school, then you tend to be closer to your graduate school than you do your undergraduate.  

[00:13:56]
>> Really?  

[00:13:57]
>> Yeah.  

[00:13:58]
>> That's interesting.  I never really considered it like that before.  

[00:14:02]
>> Well, you know, my graduate program only had 19 students in it.  

[00:14:06]
>> Oh, wow.  

[00:14:07]
>> In the graduate school of public health and hospital administration, so you tended to focus those guys, as your profession, and then you tended to meet people in your profession.  Some were Pitt grads before and after you.  That's how you kind of did your collegiate reminiscence.  

[00:14:28]
>> Yeah.  Now, if you don't mind me asking, do you notice a big difference in between undergrad at Penn State and your graduate school?  

[00:14:42]
>> Not between the courses I took my senior year, no.  

[00:14:48]
>> Okay.  

[00:14:48]
>> The courses my senior year were some, a lot of, I don't know if they still have 100, 200, 300, 400 level courses?  

[00:14:58]
>> Yeah, they do.  

[00:14:59]
>> Yeah, the 400 level courses were for seniors and graduate students.  They were small and very challenging, and I thought that prepared me well for graduate school.  

[00:15:08]
>> Right.  Did you notice like a different, more diverse or like political landscape between the two campuses to compare?  

[00:15:17]
>> Well, at, you know, frankly I don't remember many African American students.  

[00:15:24]
>> Right, right.  

[00:15:25]
>> I remember a lot of Jewish students.  

[00:15:27]
>> Oh.  

[00:15:28]
>> Yeah.  

[00:15:28]
>> At Penn State?  

[00:15:30]
>> At Penn State, yeah.  In fact, my freshman year roommate was Jewish, and, you know, I grew up in a town that was 80 percent Catholic and Lutheran.  

[00:15:41]
>> Right.  

[00:15:42]
>> I didn't even know if we had a Jewish family in town.  We certainly didn't have a synagogue.  

[00:15:46]
>> Right.  

[00:15:47]
>> So that was a whole new awakening to me, coming from the upper Midwest.  My graduate program of 19 of us, there were three women, one of whom was a Roman Catholic nun and an Afro-American guys, so there was four out of 19 that were not white males.  

[00:16:06]
>> I see, wow.  

[00:16:08]
>> But at Penn State I just don't, yeah, you know, they're white women, but no, I just don't-- kind of the black guys on campus were some football players and some basketball players.  That's how I remember it.  

[00:16:23]
>> Right, right.  I, okay, let's see, what other questions can I ask you?  Do you have anything you would like to add or you think might give a bigger picture or like would you like to recollect as your time as a student on Penn State's campus?  

[00:16:46]
>> Well, excuse me, I would say it was kind of a laidback atmosphere.  You know, people didn't get riled up over anything.  Secondly, when you talk about protest, I remember my freshman year, Penn State football beat Ohio State in Columbus.  

[00:17:05]
>> Right.  

[00:17:06]
>> It was a chilly Fall afternoon, and there was a spontaneous, you know, kids port out of the dorms, and we met, I don't know if the President's house is still on campus?  

[00:17:19]
>> I do not know the answer to that question.  Yeah, it was a little bit away from South Main, or Old Main, I'm sorry.  I remember how some students hauled a Volkswagen and put it in the pond at the president's home.  

[00:17:35]
>> Oh, my gosh.  

[00:17:36]
>> And then they went down the main street bordering the campus, is that Atherton?  I forget.  

[00:17:43]
>> Yeah.  

[00:17:43]
>> Yeah, and then they started swinging a, or pivoting back and forth a street light, and the street light just had a little wire holding it to-- somebody said we got to move a car, and they moved a Volkswagen.  That was the Volkswagen that then went into the president's pond.  

[00:18:00]
>> Oh wow, that's--  

[00:18:02]
>> Yeah, and that was kind of, you know, that was like, you know, geez we beat, you know, Ohio State, I don't know, was ranked third or fifth in the country at the time.  That's the only real demonstrate or--  

[00:18:15]
>> Anything--  

[00:18:15]
>> You know, that I remember, yeah.  

[00:18:16]
>> And that celebration for winning a football game for a biggest rival.  

[00:18:19]
>> And the football games, you could walk in, you know, all the kickoffs were at 1:00.  There was no TV back then, and you could walk in the student section at 1:10 and get a seat.  

[00:18:29]
>> Oh wow.  

[00:18:31]
>> Yeah, and it was--  

[00:18:31]
>> Very different from how we do it now.  

[00:18:33]
>> Yeah, the football stadium was a horseshoe open to the view of the Mount Nittany or the Happy Valley, and--  

[00:18:40]
>> I think I've seen a couple pictures of that.  

[00:18:43]
>> Yeah, and they had, still had the running track around it.  I understand what they did subsequently, they raised the stadium and then slanted some seats over the running track, and then of course they added a second deck and closed in that open end, yeah.  

[00:18:54]
>> Oh, yeah, it's [inaudible].  

[00:18:55]
>> Something like 40,000 seats or something.  It was kind of, you know, an easy time, yeah.  I remember, I had a Saturday class my senior year, and Mike McBath, who was an All-American defensive end with also an LMR major, and we had a number of classes together, and he had an apartment with some other football jocks.  But he'd come over to my dorm room, because I had a, I had a private but it was a double room, it was a [inaudible] study because it was quiet.  

[00:19:26]
>> Right.  

[00:19:26]
>> And he show up for class on Saturday for home games.  And I remember one time the professor said how come you're not with the football team?  He says, well, Joe says it's okay, Joe Paterno, the coach.  

[00:19:38]
>> Right.  

[00:19:38]
>> But now they'd never allow that.  

[00:19:40]
>> Oh, never.  

[00:19:41]
>> They wouldn't let you take Saturday class to begin with.  

[00:19:45]
>> That's incredible, yeah.  

[00:19:46]
>> As [inaudible] I don't have any Saturday classes.  

[00:19:49]
>> Oh, well, classes that met Monday, Wednesday, Friday or Tuesday, Thursday, Saturday, or Tuesday Thursday double--  

[00:19:57]
>> Oh wow.  

[00:19:58]
>> Or like a class and a half each day, yeah.  

[00:20:01]
>> That's great.  

[00:20:02]
>> That was our schedule, yeah.  

[00:20:04]
>> Yeah, no.  Gosh, and then Joe Paterno just let him go to class?  That's really cool.  

[00:20:11]
>> Yeah, so those are some examples about, you know, how it was kind of laid back.  There was no fast food franchises on Atherton or any of the side streets.  

[00:20:19]
>> College Avenue, you walk down, there's a McDonald's, a Taco Bell.  

[00:20:25]
>> Yeah, no, no.  And well of course, you know, fast food franchises weren't very ubiquitous back in the '60's anyways, but--  

[00:20:32]
>> Understandable.  

[00:20:33]
>> There was a place you'd get a slice of pizza for 15 or 20 cents or something, I don't know.  

[00:20:40]
>> Oh, wow.  I wish that's how it was now.  

[00:20:43]
>> Yeah, and, yeah, so it was, like I said, it was-- and then the only way you could get in and out of the campus was by bus or car because the airport was up at Black Moshannon State Park up on the mountain.  

[00:20:53]
>> Oh wow.  

[00:20:54]
>> And there was no railroad.  And, you know, one thing I understand is the airport is down where it is because they had a length of the runway in order to get 757s in for the visiting football teams.  

[00:21:07]
>> Oh.  

[00:21:07]
>> Because before they had to fly to Harrisburg and bus up.  

[00:21:11]
>> Yeah.  

[00:21:11]
>> And that was all part of the Big 10, I guess, requirements of athletics to be in the Big 10.  

[00:21:21]
>> Oh, yeah.  

[00:21:22]
>> Basketball was played in Rec Hall.  

[00:21:25]
>> Really?  

[00:21:26]
>> Yeah.  Just a crackerjack of a place, yeah.  

[00:21:28]
>> Wow.  

[00:21:29]
>> But they had some-- and the biggest event in winter sports was wrestling and gymnastics.  The men's gym team was ranked nationally.  

[00:21:38]
>> Oh, wow.  I did not know that.  

[00:21:40]
>> Yeah, and they had wrestling/gymnastic doubleheaders.  

[00:21:44]
>> Oh gosh, that's great.  

[00:21:45]
>> Yeah.  Yeah, so it was, you know, it was that kind of, that kind of time.  Yeah.  

[00:21:53]
>> All right.  

[00:21:54]
>> There wasn't, I should say there, I mean there was Greek life, but it wasn't like an all-imposing, like you had to be in a sorority or fraternity or else kind of deal.  

[00:22:01]
>> Right.  And did you ever participate in Greek life?  

[00:22:04]
>> No.  No.  

[00:22:05]
>> All right.  Let's see, what, I already asked you this, but is there anything else you would like to add?  I'm curious, like it's so different now from in this day and age where it's like everyone's walking with kids on their phones and things like that.  

[00:22:22]
>> Oh yeah.  Yeah.  Or you walked.  I mean we didn't even have backpacks then.  You just grabbed your books and folders and--  

[00:22:31]
>> Really?  

[00:22:32]
>> And, yeah, the other thing too is that you had 20 minutes between classes, and you had to be careful when you picked your classes that you didn't have to go hugely across campus because you couldn't walk from one end to the other in 20 minutes.  

[00:22:49]
>> Oh, yeah.  No, that's not how it works.  

[00:22:52]
>> Yeah, and then we chose our classes.  You came at an alphabet-determined time a couple days before classes and went into Rec Hall, and they had all these IBM computer cards stacked by school, by program, by section.  You picked out one of these cards for this class and section you wanted, time of the section was, what time of the week, you know, when it met during the week.  

[00:23:21]
>> Right.  

[00:23:21]
>> Then you gathered the three or four or five, whatever, many cards you needed, and then you checked out at the end, and that was your schedule.  

[00:23:30]
>> Wow, that's great.  

[00:23:31]
>> Yeah.  Nothing online of course back then.  

[00:23:34]
>> If there was one piece of advice that you could give to current and future Nittany Lions, do you know what it would be?  

[00:23:43]
>> Yeah, take a lot of courses in writing.  

[00:23:45]
>> In writing?  

[00:23:47]
>> Yeah.  

[00:23:47]
>> Why?  

[00:23:48]
>> Well, I think the key skill set that anybody has to have no matter what one's profession is critical thought, and a gigantic step toward being able to critically think is to be able to write.  And, I had a number of courses that, you know, you had to write for, which was good.  The other thing too is I would say that I've been a believer of being and executive that you've got to have what I, excuse the sports analogy, have a court vision, a court presence.  You got to-- you feel like the point guard in basketball, you got to be looking down the court.  You got to know where your guys are, where the defenders are, where your options are.  So, I think and the more we can study strategy and options, various options under a strategy, I think that would be good.  

[00:24:44]
>> That's very insightful.  Thank you so much for that.  Is there anything else you would like to add before we wrap up?  

[00:24:56]
>> Do they still offer that Speech 202 program they require everybody to go through?  

[00:25:01]
>> Not that I know of.  I have not had to take that yet, but then again, it is my only, it is my first semester here.  

[00:25:08]
>> There was a course, I remember Speech 202, everybody had to take it.  

[00:25:13]
>> Really.  

[00:25:13]
>> It was, you had a class about 15 to 20 people.  It was run by graduate students in the speech department.  

[00:25:21]
>> Right.  And you had to give like three or four different speeches during the term.  And so you had to get up on your feet, you know, all the things you need to do to prepare different kind of speeches.  Yeah.  

[00:25:33]
>> Right.  

[00:25:34]
>> And you had to listen to the other people, and I thought that was kind of neat for Penn State as a state institution to do that, kind of prepare you to speak on your feet.  

[00:25:46]
>> Right, and that's a very important thing to have, like as you go into the workforce and to be able to talk for yourself and stand in front of boardrooms and things like that.  

[00:25:55]
>> That's right, yeah.  And, you know, your own self-assured presence.  But it was of, I thought it was kind of, I don't want to mean California laid back, but it was--  

[00:26:08]
>> Oh yeah.  

[00:26:09]
>> It was pretty, pretty quiet.  

[00:26:13]
>> Right.  

[00:26:14]
>> Not much happening.  I know my senior year part of being a resident hall counselor, you had to be in the dorm Sunday through Thursday nights.  

[00:26:25]
>> Okay.  

[00:26:25]
>> We had quiet hours.  I don't know if they have that anymore.  

[00:26:28]
>> No, we still do, yeah.  

[00:26:30]
>> You do, okay.  And, but you had to be in your dorm complex, and so like Sunday nights there was-- now the women had a different system, where the men had a dorm counselor for every two floors, the women had a graduate student who was responsible for a whole dorm.  

[00:26:49]
>> Right.  

[00:26:50]
>> And she had a suite on the first floor.  Well, there was a group of us that played bridge, and in one of the graduate women's dorms, one of the women's dorms where this grad student was tower counselor or building counselor.  Because that qualified us being in the complex in that regard.  

[00:27:12]
>> Right.  

[00:27:12]
>> So we were more interested in playing bridge.  

[00:27:15]
>> Oh wow, yeah.  

[00:27:16]
>> None of us really knew how to play it, but--  

[00:27:19]
>> I don't know how to play it.  

[00:27:22]
>> Well I was fortunate, I really didn't learn how to play it because when I started taking bridge lessons six years ago, I didn't have to unlearn anything, because it's, according to people, really it's changed, [inaudible] and the rules have changed over the years, yeah.  

[00:27:37]
>> Right, right.  

[00:27:38]
>> Yeah, so it was, and the cafeteria was pretty kind of bland.  I mean we had, we went through one line.  I don't know, you probably had these scattered lines, where scattered foods where you--  

[00:27:52]
>> Oh yeah, it's very different now.  Every residence hall area like North, South, East, West, and we all have our own little commons, and from there it diversifies into like the market side or the actual cafeteria side.  

[00:28:07]
>> Oh, okay.  

[00:28:09]
>> So many options.  

[00:28:10]
>> Yeah, we went just through a line and some meals you only could get one entry.  

[00:28:15]
>> Oh, wow.  You picked up a tray and went down the tray line.  You know, [inaudible] would serve you.  They always had good milk and good ice cream, of course.  

[00:28:25]
>> Right, right.  

[00:28:27]
>> The Creamery still there?  

[00:28:29]
>> Oh, yeah.  It's--  

[00:28:30]
>> Yeah.  

[00:28:30]
>> It's very busy.  You'd be surprised.  For football Saturdays even the last one that we had, it was cold, everyone had their jackets on, yet there was still a line out the door waiting for that ice cream.  

[00:28:46]
>> In the spring they used to allow you to, students there was some kind of ice cream sculpturing contest.  

[00:28:55]
>> Really?  

[00:28:55]
>> Yeah, and then you could eat your ice cream.  

[00:28:58]
>> That's, wow, that sounds like it would be a lot of fun.  

[00:29:02]
>> Without paying for it, you know, without, you know, paying a fee, paying for the cone, yeah.  

[00:29:06]
>> That's even the much better part.  

[00:29:09]
>> So, yeah, parking wasn't a hassle.  I mean you couldn't have a car until you were a junior.  

[00:29:16]
>> Really?  

[00:29:17]
>> Or you couldn't register a car until you were a junior.  I guess you could park it off campus somewhere in a lot or a garage, but--  

[00:29:24]
>> That could get expensive for a while.  

[00:29:28]
>> Yeah, so for a state university-- oh, I don't know what they allow now, but when I was a senior, a dorm counselor, they started to allow women into the boys' rooms.  

[00:29:43]
>> Right, right, I remember reading about how strict they were back then.  

[00:29:47]
>> Yeah.  And they didn't allow the boys into the girls' rooms.  And the objective was that you had to have a book to prop the door open.  

[00:29:57]
>> Wow.  

[00:29:58]
>> And I had a unique guy that defined a book as a book of matches.  

[00:30:05]
>> Oh, my gosh.  

[00:30:06]
>> Because they allowed smoking, and you could buy cigarettes downstairs in the basement level.  

[00:30:12]
>> Oh wow.  

[00:30:13]
>> I had roommate my junior year that smoked a lot, you know, and you smoked in the room, you know, it was common, yeah.  But a book of matches sufficed.  

[00:30:26]
>> Did you agree like how the women had stricter rules or did you think it was reasonable?  

[00:30:34]
>> Well, I think people felt that at the time that was kind of being cutting edge to allow girls up to the boys' rooms.  I think, you know, the girls were a little bit more restrictive.  I think the girls wanted it that way because they were, you know, walking down to the bathroom and the shower and stuff like that, so they, I think it was just in terms of public decency, they wanted it that way.  They didn't mind it, yeah, being more restrictive, yeah.  I also remember one girls' dorm had been initially built as a boys' dorm, and so we were talking with the girls.  Well, what do you do with the urinals?  And they said, oh, we wash our hair in them.  

[00:31:18]
>> Oh my gosh!  

[00:31:19]
>> Yeah.  So these are just little anecdotes that come to mind as I'm talking to you, Joseph, about, you know, how-- I guess it just paints a pattern of how, you know, it wasn't the wild East Coast liberal Ivy League type of activity in '67/'68.  

[00:31:39]
>> Right.  

[00:31:40]
>> Was there like a big night life on campus when you were here?  

[00:31:46]
>> They had dances in the common areas on Friday or Saturday.  

[00:31:52]
>> Wow.  But I don't remember any big concerts or anything like that.  The local bars, if you were 21.  Back then, New York State was not too far away.  New York State you could drink at 18.  

[00:32:11]
>> Oh, really?  

[00:32:12]
>> Yeah, and so some guys would go up there and spend a Saturday night or something like that, drive up [inaudible].  

[00:32:18]
>> Yeah.  You see on the West Coast we're not used to being able to drive two hours and be in a new state.  You drive two hours, and you're in a different city.  

[00:32:26]
>> Yeah, that's right.  Yeah, yeah.  So, yeah, you drive a couple--  

[00:32:31]
>> Excuse me, and we were, the thing about centrally isolated, about the only practical way to get was bus.  They had rideshare sheets up at the HUB, the Hutzel Union Building.  

[00:32:48]
>> Oh yeah.  No, the HUB is still here.  

[00:32:50]
>> Yeah, you would, they'd have sections on a board, signup sheets if you were going to Philly or Pittsburgh or DC or something, and you'd sign up, call somebody.  Of course we had pay phones.  No phones in the room.  

[00:33:07]
>> No.  

[00:33:08]
>> Just phones in the hallway.  So if your parents called or something, you know, you had to kind of know what time it was.  Yeah.  Yeah, that's just kind of--  

[00:33:23]
>> Very different from now.  

[00:33:25]
>> I'm sure it's-- well, I know we have combined, as I said, four kids, so they go to various colleges like Duke and Georgetown and Denver University, Dartmouth.  I mean, obviously it was much different, you know, 20, 15, 20 years ago than it was 50 years ago.  

[00:33:45]
>> Right.  

[00:33:45]
>> So, I'm sure in the last 20 years, you know, Penn State, the Dukes of the world have changed.  

[00:33:53]
>> Oh yeah.  None of them came to, none of your children came to Penn State.  No, no.  Let's see, Dartmouth and then [inaudible] for grad school, and then the next one was University of Denver and then UConn Law.  Next one was Georgetown and Kellogg MBA, and then the next one was Duke and Cooney for his Master's in New York.  

[00:34:23]
>> Oh really.  

[00:34:25]
>> Yeah, and none of them went to Penn.  And my wife is a University of Vermont graduate.  She didn't [inaudible] went there either so--  

[00:34:33]
>> But overall I'm guessing you enjoyed your time here at Penn State?  

[00:34:39]
>> Yes, I did.  It was a good four years, and it was a good transition.  I should say I flunked by draft physical because of a very bad injured knee.  

[00:34:49]
>> Oh, wow.  I was able to go directly to graduate school, which was unusual.  Like in this graduate program, I said there was, let's see three women.  Of the 16 of us, I was one of two that was just out of college, and the other guy had what was called a Johnson baby.  If you had a, Lyndon Johnson signed an executive order that if you had a baby or would have a baby of nine months, you got exempted from the draft, and this guy and his wife had a baby.  

[00:35:24]
>> Oh wow.  

[00:35:26]
>> Yeah, David Hunter was his name.  Yeah.  And so the graduate schools tended to be older people.  

[00:35:34]
>> Right, right.  

[00:35:36]
>> And there was an unusual guy that graduated with me.  I didn't know him except in passing, Bill Lanchitas.  He was a, I think he was an All American center on Penn State's football team, and in order to play professional football, he was a smart kid.  He got into Pittsburgh's dental school.  

[00:35:57]
>> Oh, nice.  

[00:35:58]
>> So he went to dent school and played football.  

[00:36:00]
>> Wow.  

[00:36:02]
>> Yeah.  

[00:36:03]
>> That's great.  

[00:36:03]
>> Now Mike McBath, who was a defensive end or defensive tackle, I don't know how he got out of the draft.  He played, he was a smart guy, and I knew him pretty well at the time.  He said, I'm going to play professional football for five years.  They're going to pay, his negotiation was where they pay his MBA, and the reason for five years because he was eligible for a pension.  He was going to play and get out.  

[00:36:29]
>> Oh, smart.  

[00:36:31]
>> Yeah.  

[00:36:32]
>> So you had guys that were practical like that, you know what I mean?  That knew, focused on what they were going to do in the future.  The draft drove everybody.  Back then it was much different.  It was, you know, you got drafted after four years of matriculation when you graduated.  Those draft boards were tough, because they all had quotas.  And now it's, you don't have those, shall we say those tight buoys in the river.  

[00:37:03]
>> Yeah.  

[00:37:04]
>> The river is much wider to swim around in.  Yeah, but back then it was real, and if a guy dropped out of school midterm or something, the draft board was notified by the university, and bingo, they got their--  

[00:37:16]
>> Picked him right up.  

[00:37:18]
>> Their draft notice, yeah.  

[00:37:20]
>> Right, wow.  

[00:37:21]
>> So they were pretty tough about that, yeah.  So that kept you focused on your classes and your grades and what you wanted to do at the end of the time, yeah.  

[00:37:32]
>> Wow.  So that was one, I guess, in retrospect spillover to Vietnam War.  One sense is that you had guys that tended to be pretty focused if they weren't out trying to get to Canada or, you know, be a conscientious objector, trying to dodge the draft someway else, yeah.  

[00:37:54]
>> Yeah, wow.  It's incredible.  

[00:37:59]
>> Yeah, it was a different time, and I don't know if it's always portrayed like that, and I think Penn State was unique because it was centrally isolated.  The joke was, I think Scranton was governor, that if there were protests going on, they'd barricade the roads going into the state college, so not to let people in.  

[00:38:18]
>> Right.  

[00:38:18]
>> Yeah.  

[00:38:19]
>> That's so funny.  That's great.  

[00:38:22]
>> And, you know, for instance, I think there was like three or four buses.  A bus terminal was at the side of the campus opposite where the football stadium was.  

[00:38:33]
>> Okay.  

[00:38:34]
>> They had like three or four regular runs, but then during finals, they would run like a midnight bus.  These went to Pittsburgh.  

[00:38:41]
>> Oh, wow.  Those people would finish up at 7:00 or so and didn't want to wait until 8:00 the next morning.  They'd fill these buses up, and kids would go home or connect in Pittsburgh somewhere.  

[00:38:53]
>> Right, right.  

[00:38:54]
>> Because that's how I got home.  I took the bus to Pittsburgh, got in early in the morning, took a cab out to the airport, flew to Chicago, then took a train up to the town in Wisconsin.  

[00:39:04]
>> Oh, wow.  So it was like a whole day of travel.  

[00:39:07]
>> Yeah, but, you know, as a student, time wasn't a precious commodity.  You just kind of [inaudible] dah, dah, dah, and you went there.  

[00:39:14]
>> Right.  

[00:39:14]
>> Yeah.  

[00:39:15]
>> Yeah.  

[00:39:15]
>> So I hope this is helpful.  What are you going to do with this in this course?  You have to write a paper or something?  

[00:39:22]
>> Yes.  You're interview, this one right now, is actually going to be uploaded to our database of other alumni who have called Penn State students, and from this we're just going to like take information about 1968, like in your interview, and we're trying to just get a better sense of it.  Because it was such an important year in history, and it's the 50th anniversary, as you said, also.  

[00:39:50]
>> That's right.  And, you know, as you say that, I do remember my freshman year, I guess it must have been the springtime, '65, we were sitting in dinner, and this kid from Philly got really upset because the United States bombed, I forget what it was, maybe it was Hanoi for the first time, and he thought was a real change in the escalation of the war.  He was really upset about it.  

[00:40:24]
>> Right.  

[00:40:25]
>> And that's the only image I have of anybody acting/reacting to the war.  

[00:40:31]
>> Really, wow.  

[00:40:32]
>> Yeah.  That I remember.  Yeah.  

[00:40:34]
>> What about the Civil Rights Movement?  Did you see like the few, there are statistics showing like how little African American people that were on campus.  Did you see any people like try to advocate or African Americans advocated for themselves?  

[00:40:50]
>> No, no.  That, it was a pretty white campus.  

[00:40:54]
>> Right.  

[00:40:54]
>> And, geez, I'm trying to think, through faculty, the faculty I remember, I don't think I had any, may have had some women, but all white males otherwise.  

[00:41:12]
>> Right, right.  

[00:41:13]
>> Yeah.  That was, you know, and of course that was the, you know, the progression.  You know, white males dominate faculties back then too.  

[00:41:23]
>> I know we had one guy in the school of, the department of labor management relations.  His last name was Kitty, and you know, geez, I'm hard to tell what he could have, he was an associate professor, so he was probably in his 40s.  He was a little liberal.  

[00:41:40]
>> Right.  

[00:41:40]
>> And would speak out about the war but not in an angry, come join me, let's get this thing going in a direction to storm the President's office.  So, no, no, nothing like that.  

[00:41:51]
>> No.  That's amazing.  All right, well thank you so much for allowing me to record.  

[00:41:57]
>> You're welcome.  Well, I'm glad I can be of help in my own little way and good luck to you.  You've got your whole career in front of you, so--  

[00:42:04]
>> Thank you.  

[00:42:05]
>> Take that writing course and take that speech course.  

[00:42:08]
>> I will.  

[00:42:09]
>> Okay.  Thank you very much.  

Production Transcript for Wright1968.mp3

[00:01:10]
>> Okay.  Alright, now recording.  So, could you please state your name?  

[00:01:20]
>> My name is Barry Robinson.  

[00:01:24]
>> Thank you.  So, I'm Joseph Wright.  This interview should-- it usually lasts about 45 to 60 minutes, but it could be shorter or longer so let's get right into it.  So first off, what years did you attend Penn State?  

[00:01:43]
>> I attended Penn State from 1963 through 1967.  

[00:01:52]
>> Okay, and why did you choose Penn State for your university education as opposed to any other state university or local university?  

[00:02:01]
>> I wanted, first of all, to be at a campus that was distant from home because I had commuted a lot to high school in Philadelphia, and I wanted to live on a campus environment.  And also, the new Penn State had an excellent academic reputation.  

[00:02:21]
>> That's true.  Did you kind of-- did you not like Philadelphia or did you just want to branch out a bit?  

[00:02:30]
>> I wanted to branch out a bit.  As I said, I attended a high school some distance from my house, Central High School in Philadelphia, which was an excellent high school, but I wanted to live away from home.  I had always envisioned college as a place where one finds them self in a different community setting, meeting people from various other places.  I was accustomed to traveling and enjoyed it, traveling, you know, outside of Philadelphia.  It wasn't that I felt a need to stay in Philadelphia in order to have a college experience, so Penn State seemed, to me, to be an attractive option.  I applied to other schools also outside of Pennsylvania for the similar reasons.  

[00:03:19]
>> So, I don't suppose you applied to Temple as well, did you?  

[00:03:25]
>> No, I didn't.  

[00:03:27]
>> Okay.  I just know everyone I know from Philadelphia all applied to Temple.  So, what was your major at Penn State?  

[00:03:36]
>> My major was called pre-law, but as a substantive characterization it was political science.  

[00:03:45]
>> Okay.  

[00:03:45]
>> There was little distinction between the courses that were quote pre-law versus those for political science majors, so, political science major is probably the best way to put it.  

[00:03:57]
>> Okay, I understand.  So-- Pre-law is more of an indication of your-- your intentions post graduate work, but political science was the meat and substance of the course work.  

[00:04:08]
>> Okay.  And within political science pre-law, did your major kind of have a focus, like today at Penn State you can do political science with international politics or more of like a local law kind of focus?  

[00:04:27]
>> Well I took courses that were grounded in political theory and that gave me, I think, a good basis for how political structures and systems are constituted.  However, I did take on a focus that was directed towards international relations and foreign politics, U.S. relationships also with the Soviet Union.  I took another course Latin American politics, and so on, because I found myself very much interested in international affairs.  

[00:05:08]
>> Okay.  So, I mean, that must have been really, you know, interesting, a relative time to be studying international affairs.  

[00:05:15]
>> Well it was.  I had great professors, I had, I think, the advantage of being able to look deeply into the historical traditions and origins of the political structures in Latin America, which I found fascinating.  And then, of course, with the Soviet Union still not having been dismantled, this was prior to the tearing down of the wall.  

[00:05:45]
>> Of course.  

[00:05:47]
>> The-- the whole aspect of the U.S. and Soviet relationship was of a great interest at that time.  

[00:05:59]
>> So, that's actually a good segway into the next question.  Is there one particular course or professor that had a lasting impression on you or your studies?  

[00:06:11]
>> I'd have to think about that a bit.  I think there was a professor Rube, whom I admired in English Literature, I guess was American Literature, I'm sorry.  American Lit; I took two American Lit courses and Professor Ruben was extremely good.  I had a professor Pedit [phonetic] in political science and another professor, Nicholas Masters, who I thought was excellent.  And then I had a great English Lit professor.  My-- my basic English course was John Barth, who's one of the great American novelists.  

[00:07:03]
>> Oh wow.  

[00:07:04]
>> So, I was fortunate to find myself in his class, and having worked as a library page in Philadelphia during my high school years I was familiar with, you know, some of his works and certainly the collection and body of-- of his work was known to me, if not through having read them all at least from the titles, so to find myself in his class was really a matter of wonderment for me; I was really happy about it.  

[00:07:33]
>> That sounds--  

[00:07:34]
>> There are others as well.  

[00:07:35]
>> So that sounds like you're a real avid reader, like you really like the literature and history side of--  

[00:07:46]
>> I-- I did, and I-- I had Professor, I think it was Professor Jansen [phonetic] for art history.  Penn State had quite a star cast of professors, and I'm leaving some out.  I do remember various names here and there, but it was quite a good experience for me.  Vernon Aspachurian [phonetic] in the Soviet-- U.S. Soviet relations was excellent.  

[00:08:16]
>> Okay.  So, first couple questions I had for you were, you know, just about your academics, so now we're going to kind of go out, these questions are going to ask you about what you did outside of the classroom.  So, what kind of music did you listen to or like while you were in college?  

[00:08:34]
>> I was very eclectic.  I had a pretty solid relationship with jazz, having grown up in Philadelphia and having listened to the jazz stations there.  And my parents were very wide ranging in their music interest, so I also enjoyed classical, still do.  So, I had a very broad pallet of musical interest.  I associated myself with numbers of people who were in the folklore society.  

[00:09:12]
>> Mm-hmm.  

[00:09:14]
>> I was an active member of the jazz club, Penn State Jazz Club, Stan Lathan [phonetic] and others were involved with that, Steve Korn [phonetic].  So, my musical taste were very broad and I was glad to be able to find people with a range of musical interests.  Of course, I was into regular soul music.  You know, that-- that was something I was intimately familiar with and so when artists, you know, came up, when the Temptations came on campus and so on, I mean that was a-- that was a big thrill.  I can remember meeting, you know, a number of artists that came into town and it was-- it was great.  

[00:10:09]
>> Yeah, that's really exciting.  So, was that jazz club mentioned, was that like a jazz appreciation club or did you play?  

[00:10:15]
>> Yes, it was a jazz appreciation club, but it also sponsored concerts.  

[00:10:20]
>> Okay.  

[00:10:22]
>> And so, the club was not only about, you know, trying to make sure that there was a collection of jazz in the library.  There used to be, in the Hub-- I should say in the Hub-- in the Hub there were listening rooms where you can take an LP and play it in the listening room and so listen to Coltrane or you could, you know, listen to West Montgomery, Anita Simone or any of the others right there in-- in some comfort.  But yeah, the jazz club brought a number of artists.  Monk came to Penn State.  Anita Simone came to Penn State and those were, you know, quite memorable occasions.  The Folk Society, I believe, brought Richie Havens in.  It was quite a time.  

[00:11:23]
>> Yeah, I bet.  I mean that was-- I mean, usually when I think of the 60s, I always think of the Stones and Hendrix, but of course there was also--  

[00:11:31]
>> Sure.  

[00:11:31]
>> Soul and jazz going on.  

[00:11:34]
>> I can remember being in West Halls, which is where I lived for my first year, and I can remember the onset of the Beatles.  And I can very well remember the Stones, but I liked all that.  

[00:11:50]
>> Yeah, but you were just more of a soul and jazz guy.  

[00:11:56]
>> Yeah, I suppose, but even today, I can remember the lyrics of a hell of a lot of the Beatles songs and the Stones songs.  I-- I soaked it all in.  I'm-- as you will find out, I was later in the music record industry, so it's--  

[00:12:09]
>> Oh wow.  

[00:12:10]
>> For me, music, if it's good music, I like it, I'll listen to it and enjoy it.  

[00:12:16]
>> Alright, well that's really great.  So, in this class we've been reading a lot of issues of the Collegian.  Do you remember the Collegian?  

[00:12:26]
>> Yes.  

[00:12:27]
>> We've been reading a lot of issues from 1968.  Today nobody really reads it anymore, but with that, where did you get or obtain your news day to day?  

[00:12:38]
>> I looked at the Daily Collegian, but I also looked at the Philadelphia Inquirer.  I would pick up on that.  The New York Times I would get, I would stop off in the Corner Room, very often get the New York Times and work through the crossword puzzle, but also go through the articles.  And then I was fortunate to have a lot of friends who are very much interested, also, in what was going on in the politics of the day; the incipient involvement of the United States in Vietnam, the Civil Rights Movement issues were going on.  I had an uncle who was a great civil rights attorney and so he and I kept in touch and I was-- I was pretty well up on matters relating to segregation and discrimination in the south.  
[00:13:42]
My father had moved down to Atlanta and I visited him from time to time and so I was made consciously aware of the racist sentiments that were espoused by Lester Maddox, then the Governor of Georgia.  So, I think I was pretty well tuned in, and I was not the only one in that regard.  

[00:14:05]
>> Yeah, no.  It's good that you-- you stayed active.  But did you exclusively read newspapers?  Did you ever get a chance to watch like TV or listen to the radio?  Like did they have TVs in the commons like they do now?  

[00:14:16]
>> Yes.  Yeah, so I followed the news avidly.  I can remember going over to Simmons Hall, which happened to be the residence hall which contained the dining commons that I went to.  I guess that was in my-- I guess that was in my sophomore year.  In my freshman year I would go to the West Hall's, one of the residence halls there and, you know, pick up on the TV news.  So, that's kind of how I kept in touch with the outside world, but yeah, I did a lot of TV viewing, yes, to be sure.  

[00:15:00]
>> Okay.  So, speaking of news, with so much going on in the late 60s with like the first moon photos and student protests in the election of 68, what were your particular interests at the time?  I know you just said you followed the civil rights-- the news with civil rights.  Were there any other-- ?  

[00:15:19]
>> Well I remember watching the March on Washington from the TV viewing room in Simmons.  I can recall doing that with a lot of the sisters who were living there and that was quite an inspiring performance.  I came in actually during the summer of 63, so I came in the summer semester and I think it was during that time that the march was taking place, but-- if my recollection serves me properly, but that's-- that's how I came to be very much acutely aware of, you know, what was going on in the demonstrations, the sit-ins, student sit-ins and so on were starting to take place around that time as well.  

[00:16:14]
>> Certainly.  So, what is an interest of yours that, maybe like a hobby or thing that you really enjoy today, that you discovered or developed at Penn State?  

[00:16:32]
>> Hmm.  Good question.  Well I'm an avid tennis player and I got a chance to do that more frequently than I had in the past when I was at Penn State, just because of the large number of courts and it was a great way to do things socially also with not just guys but with women as well.  I mean, there'd be a bunch of us and, hey, anybody want to play, and we'd go over to the courts and there were courts near Pollock where I played.  And so that was something that stayed with me; I was just playing last night, so--  

[00:17:10]
>> Oh, wow.  

[00:17:12]
>> It became a lifelong passion of mine.  

[00:17:15]
>> So, did you just--  

[00:17:16]
>> One of-- one of a couple, but--  

[00:17:18]
>> Well--  

[00:17:18]
>> That one took flower at Penn State, I think.  

[00:17:22]
>> Okay.  So, did you play a little bit before?  Did you just start-- ?  

[00:17:26]
>> I played a little bit before.  I had an uncle who was a professional tennis instructor but he lived in New York in Springfield Gardens, New York and he had his own courts and he and his wife were professional tennis instructors.  But although I got to play a little bit on times when-- during times when I was visiting there it wasn't anything that was consistent.  And so, at Penn State, I had all the courts and the immediacy of, you know, the facilities there and it was great; it worked out really well.  

[00:18:02]
>> That must have been a good way to, you know, break the ice and make friends and stuff, right?  

[00:18:07]
>> Yeah, it was great.  That, pickup basketball games, I found that it was one of the ways in which I could get to get a bet-- to obtain a better relationship with some of my roommates.  When I came to Penn State, I know this is on the side, but sports is often a way in which you can get people to come to recognize, you know, that they can have fun together and get to know one another in a very informal way.  

[00:18:40]
>> Yeah.  

[00:18:40]
>> So, when I came to Penn State, my roommates, both my summer roommate and the during my first year, were white and they had not had any experience, I think, dealing with blacks, but in the pickup basketball games and say, hey, listen, there are a bunch of guys getting together and we're just going to play some ball; you want to play?  And they came to be taken interest and that-- I think that kind of broadened their-- their perspective of Amer-- of American society.  

[00:19:14]
>> Yeah.  

[00:19:14]
>> I was accustomed to being in an integrated environment; all my schools were such in Philadelphia; they were integrated.  

[00:19:22]
>> Yeah.  Was-- I like to imagine that Philadelphia was one of the more, I guess, egalitarian areas; was it?  

[00:19:32]
>> I found it so.  It wasn't a perfect city, to be sure.  You had elements within Philadelphia, I think, that were kind of retrogressive, but I think that the black professional community, which is the community which I grew up in, was one that was well respected.  I knew, you know, people who were judges and doctors and so on; my parents were both professionals.  So, we found it to be socially enlightened, supportive, close-knit community, you know, within the black community of Philadelphia, and with the schools being integrated I had a lot of friends across the spectrum, so that was good.  

[00:20:26]
>> So, being from Philadelphia and going to like a diverse high school like Central, the south must have been a real contrast, right?  

[00:20:34]
>> The south was a real cont-- contrast, and I was very conscious of that.  I had thought-- my father thought maybe I'd come to Morehouse, but I thought that since I was accustomed to being in an integrated community and was doing, you know, integrated schools and so on, I thought with Penn State offering all that it did and I had a great familiarity with Penn State, I said, I think I'll state at Penn State, but it was a close call; I nearly went to Morehouse.  

[00:21:04]
>> Okay.  I mean was it a total culture shock when you did go to the south or could-- did you kind of already know that there was a lot of prejudice that you would expect?  

[00:21:14]
>> I already-- I already knew, and my parents, I think, during my, you know, upbringing kept me pretty much informed about what was going on in the south, what the traditions were, what the prohibitions were in the south and I was mindful of those, so, you know, I had some readings in black history and the like, nothing extraordinary but enough for me to have a sense and appreciation of the struggles that were going on there.  Plus, my uncle, the civil rights lawyer, was very communicative about with the rest of his brothers and sisters, my aunts and uncles, my mother, about, you know, the challenges that we were facing in terms of getting our fair share of the American pie.  So, yeah.  

[00:22:11]
>> Yeah, of course.  

[00:22:14]
>> So, going off of that, what is one suggestion that you would offer to current students at Penn State?  

[00:22:25]
>> The suggestion I would have to them is, one, to mentor younger students who come in.  

[00:22:34]
>> Okay.  

[00:22:35]
>> To get them familiarized with the college experience and the Penn State experience, because Penn State is physically removed from the kind of areas that most of us are accustomed to living in.  You know, it's situated quite a ways from Philadelphia, good ways from Pittsburgh, but to form a community, mentor younger students, tell them the things that you've learned, not just about social-- when I say social I'm talking about societal issues, but also just the ways in which you can economize your use of time to study, the importance of, you know, getting a quick start on your studies because the college experience is just different; it's more demanding.  And when I was at Penn State, we had the term system, which was 10 weeks.  
[00:23:39]
If you got off to a slow start, the fourth week you're already looking at mid-terms.  

[00:23:44]
>> Yeah.  

[00:23:45]
>> You know, so if you take a relaxed attitude towards, you know, your course work, figuring oh I'll catch up, you could find yourself in a hole very quickly.  And with the full semester system it's not quite as immediate a mid-term situation from the time the semester starts; you have a little bit more time to kind of get your footing, but I do think that the younger students benefit a lot from the leadership, the knowledge, the experiences, the personal interests that are taken by older students in their welfare.  The other thing I would suggest is that students take-- black students take particular note of the internship opportunities that are made available; internships in Washington D.C., other cities, where they can obtain practical knowledge and insight into the world of work, the various areas of endeavor, which may be of interest to them and they can get an appreciation as to whether or not their visions of those particular types of professions, areas of professional activity or creative endeavor really are as-- remain as great an attraction for them as they had imagined that they would be.  

[00:25:18]
>> Yeah, certainly.  And like Penn State just has so many internship opportunities and they've expanded, I'm sure, like even more than when you were here.  So.  

[00:25:26]
>> Yeah, I've been very active over the years, less so in the last couple years just due to, you know, other demands on my time, but very very much active in pushing the Washington D.C. program, and I did that when I was on the Board of the Washington D.C. alumni chapter.  So, the opportunities are enormous, but many students don't know to look for them.  They're there if you take an interest.  And fill out the applications and, you know, can find yourself really presented with a pretty full plate of opportunities and possibilities for expanding and building upon what you've learned in the classroom.  

[00:26:22]
>> Like the thing I found is, like, there's so much, there's so many opportunities and so many things to do at Penn State that it's almost overwhelming and you just don't know-- even know where to start.  So, like you said--  

[00:26:32]
>> Right.  

[00:26:33]
>> Good to, you know, have [inaudible]-- acquainted with, you know, an older student who's been through it all and can--  

[00:26:41]
>> Yeah, I think that's-- I think that's very helpful.  You know, human civilization is really built upon the premise that you learn from what others have seen and experienced and are able to communicate to you so that you don't have to go through all of the spade work yourself; you can build on the shoulders and, you know, the opportunities that other people have availed themselves of.  And so, that's-- I think that's really important, because you can get up to Penn State and it's such a large place, that you could feel a little bit overwhelmed by all that's there and trying to find your spot within Penn State, but I think when other people are willing to, you know, talk to you and say, hey, you're new here, you're a freshman or whatever; let us tell you about the kinds of things we've been doing, what we've been looking at.  You know, if you have any questions about stuff, you know, feel free to talk with me; I can tell you what I went through and I can tell you, maybe, where, you know, your best position to put your energies or your priorities and, you know, get to know people.  
[00:27:59]
It's-- it-- I found that the university became a much smaller place over relatively short period of time when I-- as I made contacts with other students.  

[00:28:14]
>> Definitely.  You know, sometimes, you know, it's so large like you lose-- it sounds like, you know, you come from a high school where you might have been popular and then you come here and you're just, you know, one kid in thousands.  

[00:28:30]
>> That's right.  

[00:28:34]
>> So, up until this point, besides some of the tangents we've been going on, I've been kind of following the standard script, but I have a couple of questions that I made specifically for you based off of the bio you wrote on the 1960s.  

[00:28:53]
>> Sure.  

[00:28:53]
>> So, you were an ROTC cadet, Air Force ROTC.  

[00:28:57]
>> I was, for four years, yes.  

[00:29:01]
>> Did you commission?  

[00:29:03]
>> Yes.  

[00:29:03]
>> Okay, so were you ostracized at all from your peers for being a cadet, like while Vietnam was going on?  

[00:29:11]
>> No.  I think at that time, when I first started, ROTC was required of everyone, so that makes it a little different than perhaps was the situation for people who came after me.  

[00:29:25]
>> It was required-- ?  

[00:29:26]
>> All the male students-- all the male students were required to take ROTC for at least their first year, and if I'm not mistaken even their second.  

[00:29:35]
>> Really?  

[00:29:36]
>> Yes.  So that was basic ROTC.  

[00:29:40]
>> Okay.  That's-- that's-- you probably had-- you had thousands of kids doing ROTC.  

[00:29:45]
>> You had thousands of kids  who were in Army, Navy or Air Force ROTC, with no intention of becoming career professionals in the military.  I was not one who was, you know, intending to be a career professional in the military.  But what happened was, as there was a greater consciousness of what was going on over in Southeast Asia fewer students opted to take the advanced ROTC courses because their obligations, once you did that, you were going to receive a stipend, but not anything really major, and you would graduate with a commission.  

[00:30:34]
>> Yeah.  

[00:30:35]
>> Now, for me, one of the things that was a driving factor was the Vietnam War was, you know, imposed a load on the military such that they were drafting people out of college.  

[00:30:53]
>> Yeah.  

[00:30:54]
>> And the thing was that you-- most people managed to get through the four years without being drafted, but if your number came up then you had the problem of, you know, are you going to go into the military or not.  I figured the safeguard for me would be to go the Air Force ROTC route and get a commission and then see whether I could get some kind of extension to go to law school.  

[00:31:26]
>> Yeah because--  

[00:31:27]
>> And indeed, that's what I was able to do.  

[00:31:29]
>> Yeah, because then you have some degree of control over what you'll actually do, as opposed to just being like forced to enlist, you know.  

[00:31:35]
>> Right.  So-- so to answer your question more directly; there was a rising tension against ROTC, but not so much against the students like myself who were in it.  It was more an objection to the ROTC, to the military coming on the campus, recruiting.  

[00:31:59]
>> Yeah.  

[00:32:00]
>> And the imposition of the ROTC requirement as a class, you know, curricular requirement.  

[00:32:10]
>> Yeah.  So, I guess like I always imagined that, you know, if you were walking around in uniform on campus there'd be like-- you know, like hippies yelling at you and stuff, so that wasn't the case?  

[00:32:22]
>> No, I never-- I never experienced that.  What I did experience was the realization among my ROTC classmates.  Based on the coursework that we received in ROTC about military history and so on, the-- the resentment that so many of them had against U.S. participation in Vietnam.  

[00:32:46]
>> Yeah.  

[00:32:48]
>> So, there were guys that, along with me, were taking the advanced ROTC, we're going to graduate with commissions who are totally opposed to the Vietnam War.  

[00:32:57]
>> Really?  

[00:32:57]
>> And this was a frustration that was sometimes caused some friction with ROTC instructors because they had a course committed there, their livelihoods and their careers to being in the Air Force or in the Army, and here you have these cadets who are going to graduate and numbers of them saying, this is the wrong war.  We were reading this military treatise or whatever, saying never get yourself involved; the United States should never get itself involved in a war in Asia.  

[00:33:29]
>> Yeah.  

[00:33:30]
>> And we had read about the French involvement in Vietnam and how they had gotten their rear handed to them at Dien Bien Phu and had to basically quit-- quit Vietnam.  So, we were asking the question, if the French had to get out why should we jump in?  

[00:33:47]
>> Yeah.  I mean, I think-- I mean I'm an ROTC and we all have a tendency to think we know what we're talking about, so.  My next question, which is-- you kind of started to touch on it already.  Like, as someone who, you know, was planning to go into the military, what were your personal thoughts on America's involvement in Vietnam?  

[00:34:10]
>> I was opposed to America's involvement in Vietnam.  My uncle with whom I was close was opposed to it.  I had another uncle who was an Air Force fighter pilot commander who was opposed to the Vietnam War, so my family was, you know, just of the belief-- my family was of the belief that the Vietnam War was a war that should never have brought the United States into involvement.  We should have never gotten involved with it.  So, I was-- I was conflicted because here I am in the Air Force ROTC and my folks were, you know, hoping I wouldn't get drafted, so that was a safeguard, I wasn't going to get drafted.  My number did come up but I had the Air Force ROTC so that stopped me from being drafted.  

[00:35:06]
>> Okay.  

[00:35:07]
>> But, you know, at that time, the protests were starting to occur and I can remember Dow Chemical was looking to recruit to employ students at Penn State and Dow made napalm and so on, and so there were huge protests against the-- well I don't know they were huge, but they were sizable.  

[00:35:37]
>> Yeah.  

[00:35:38]
>> Against Dow coming onto campus to recruit for employment.  I can remember that.  But, so and then when I was in the Air Force I was interviewed in the Air Force Times and I said, you know, I was candid; I said I came through the ROTC, I went to Law School, you know; I'm proud to serve as a lawyer in the Air Force but I am not-- you know, I am not comfortable with the U.S. having involved itself in a war that I find highly questionable.  

[00:36:13]
>> Yeah.  

[00:36:13]
>> In the meantime, my uncle was arguing a case before the U.S. Supreme Court.  There was a guy named Gillette who opposed the war, not on the basis of being a pacifist or whatever but just said that it was an unjust war and people should-- should not have to be conscripted into it.  He lost that case, but it went all the way to the U.S. Supreme Court, so.  

[00:36:39]
>> In you--  

[00:36:40]
>> So--  Yeah, I had-- I was in line with those people who were opposed to the war.  

[00:36:47]
>> Okay.  So, I mean, that just seems like it's like an interesting kind of like paradox; like you're obviously like very patriotic and wanted to serve your country but you didn't agree with its involvement, you know.  

[00:37:00]
>> Right.  

[00:37:01]
>> So, I mean, did you know--  

[00:37:04]
>> Well my father had served, you know, my father, my uncles served in the military; that's-- that's good for another longer story, but we have had military involvement in my family and we've also had great opposition to what we feel to be undemocratic-- undemocratic movements towards involvement in other countries through militaristic ventures.  

[00:37:35]
>> I mean, do you feel like the-- the i-- the idea behind it, the containment of communism is like a good idea?  

[00:37:43]
>> Yeah, I didn't agree with the domino theory; that's what was the prevalent theory at that time; that is South-- if Vietnam falls then all the other countries, Laos, Cambodia and so on will also fall subject to communism.  I think I had studied enough about political systems and so on to realize that the Russian cultural model was not one that was likely to prevail and proliferate through Southeast Asia.  

[00:38:18]
>> That's interesting.  Did you-- did you know any of your-- anyone personally who had to drop out of Penn State to go serve?  

[00:38:28]
>> No.  I didn't know anybody that had to drop out.  I'm sure there probably were some, but I just don't recollect.  It was later, in my law school experience, I had numbers of friends who had to drop out.  

[00:38:40]
>> They had to completely drop law school to go to Vietnam?  

[00:38:45]
>> Yeah.  Mm-hmm.  

[00:38:46]
>> Or to Canada.  

[00:38:48]
>> Wow.  That's--  

[00:38:51]
>> Yeah.  

[00:38:51]
>> I-- I thought I read somewhere that there was like an exemption to the draft for anybody who was en-- enrolled in a university.  

[00:38:58]
>> Nope.  No, not when I got to law school.  By the time my ROTC commission was bestowed upon me, of course, upon graduation in 1967.  But then they gave me what they call a deferment to go to law school because the Air Force, I guess, was getting enough people where they didn't need me right away.  So, I got a deferment to go to law school; I went to NYU, and while I was at NYU numbers of my friends either had to discontinue their law school education; some came back to it, some didn't, some of them took jobs that gave them a deferment, like teacher Corp or other things and some went to Canada and [inaudible].  

[00:39:50]
>> Yeah.  

[00:39:50]
>> And is a lawyer, practicing lawyer in Canada.  

[00:39:53]
>> So, you weren't active duty when you were doing law school?  

[00:39:59]
>> I was, I guess you call it reserve.  

[00:40:02]
>> Okay.  So, you were still--  

[00:40:03]
>> I never-- I never-- I never had a day where I had to wear a uniform or report anywhere.  

[00:40:08]
>> Okay, got you.  

[00:40:09]
>> My life was that of a normal student at-- at law school.  

[00:40:14]
>> But, after-- after--  

[00:40:16]
>> Afterwards, they then didn't-- still didn't need me right away.  I practiced at-- I got recruited by Morgan, Lewis and Bockius, which is the-- one of the largest law firms in the country, and I went to Philadelphia and I practiced law for a year and a half when they finally said, oh, now we need you.  

[00:40:35]
>> Yeah.  

[00:40:36]
>> And that's-- that was in 1971 they called me up on active duty and I served four years as an Air Force lawyer.  

[00:40:44]
>> Okay, and that wasn't-- that wasn't until 70s, or-- ?  

[00:40:49]
>> Right, 71.  I graduated in-- from law school in 70; I graduated early actually, February of 70, as opposed to June.  I went straight to Philadelphia to begin practice at Morgan, Lewis and Bockius; it's now called Morgan Lewis.  And it was only a year and a half after that that they then called me up and I got assigned to Ellsworth Air Force Base in Rapid City, South Dakota.  

[00:41:21]
>> Alright.  So, we went on a bit of a tangent just because I'm really-- you know, I'm doing ROTC and I was interested with your military career, but I have another question kind of about your life at Penn State.  You said that the prejudice in Philadelphia wasn't too bad, but did being, like, an African American affect your day to day life on campus; like were you-- did you experience any of that--  

[00:41:53]
>> Yes.  

[00:41:53]
>> Penn State.  

[00:41:55]
>> The-- you know, I didn't find the prejudice there to be blatant from among the students, in and among the students, and maybe that was a matter of self-selection.  I basically made friends with those people who seemed open and friendly to me.  

[00:42:13]
>> Okay.  

[00:42:15]
>> And the other students-- many of the other students I didn't have intimate contacts with.  But we were familiar with the fact that we were residing in an area where there were not welcoming social attitudes towards blacks and we were also concerned about the institution.  When I walked into Penn State, I found that the percentage of black representation in the student body was altogether confounding and it was so infinitesimal that that was not what I was accustomed to.  I was accustomed to dealing with in a majority white situation and me being a minority, but the proportion was so much smaller black students to white students than I had ever experienced; that seemed to me to be entirely intolerable given the fact that this is a state supported-- Penn state is a state supported institution.  
[00:43:21]
Our taxpayer dollars are paying for it and there was so little participation in the student body or inclusion of the student body of black students.  And so, that was what registered for me.  I can remember going to the Hub, and I mentioned this during the Black Alumni reunion a couple of weeks ago, going to the Hub and sitting down with some of the other black students and saying, you know, we just have to take a look around here, how few of us there are.  And I said, well why don't we make a list of everybody we know who's black and we did.  And it took a couple sessions, you know how you're in-between classes and sometimes you have a longer break because you don't have a class coming up, so we had some time and each person would come by and say, oh wait a minute, you don't have John Jenkins here or you don't have, you know, Bill Brockter on here or whatever.  

[00:44:23]
>> Yeah.  

[00:44:23]
>> And so, we-- we'd keep working on the list until we came to an agreement that we had everybody we could name.  We even then went out and we included a couple of African and Jamaican students who were grad students; we put them on the list because they were from the African [inaudible].  

[00:44:38]
>> Oh wow.  

[00:44:39]
>> Figured, you know.  So, we came up with a list of-- we came up with something like 205.  

[00:44:44]
>> In the entire Penn State University.  

[00:44:48]
>> University Park population, out of what was then a student undergraduate body of about 34-35,000.  

[00:44:58]
>> That's like shocking; that's less than one percent.  That's--  

[00:45:02]
>> Yes, way less than one percent.  

[00:45:06]
>> I didn't-- I actually didn't realize that it was that bad, but--  

[00:45:10]
>> Yeah.  And then when it came time to go to the barber shop, like, okay, where do you go.  I used to, you know, hitch rides home because there would be a ride board posted in the Hub and other places; so, and so looking-- you know, driving to Philadelphia, looking for some riders to pick up the cost of gas and so on.  And when I'd come back to Philly the first thing I would do is, you know, kiss my mom hi and say hi and go off to the barber shop, get a haircut and, you know, that would last for a while.  And later on, we found that there was a guy on-- who had a barber shop on South Pugh Street I believe it was.  And very light complected guy, I think his name was Bob, and he would cut-- he would cut the hair for blacks.  And that was about the only barber shop I knew of, and the girls, I think they had to pretty much do their own hair or I don't know where they traveled off to to get their hair done.  

[00:46:10]
>> Yeah, it's funny, my professor for this class is actually an African American and she says it's still, even today, it's hard to find a place that does--  

[00:46:18]
>> I believe that.  So, I heard somebody tell me that a couple weeks ago.  We still have to look around.  I was talking to a woman who's a grad student and she's I think an instructor at Penn State and she said, yeah, she-- she has a hard time finding places.  The-- the townees were a problem.  I think they were accustomed to being an all-white community.  You have a lot of-- you had a lot of people in the town who were working class people, not necessarily college educated.  

[00:46:55]
>> Yeah.  

[00:46:55]
>> And so, if you went to some of the bars and restaurants you could get snide comments and that kind of thing and indeed there were some fights.  I was not-- never a participant in one, but, you know, from time to time there would be a fight because somebody would make some kind of racist remark or whatever.  And those-- those things occurred, but we didn't feel that State College itself was a really welcoming community.  

[00:47:21]
>> Well yeah, like you said, State College, you know, is rural, it's working class.  

[00:47:26]
>> Right.  There are relationship problems to be sure between whites in the college community versus the general community; there are those tensions; the town gown tensions exist, but you add the racial factor and it's yet another level of complexity and concern.  

[00:47:52]
>> But just within the-- just within the university, you know, it wasn't as bad?  

[00:47:58]
>> No.  There was supposed to have been a couple professors and that where people thought, you know, discriminatory in grading for blacks.  

[00:48:14]
>> Mm-hmm.  

[00:48:14]
>> I ended up taking one of the classes from one of the professors who was said to be that way, having been warned, but did not personally find that to have been the case.  

[00:48:26]
>> Did he-- ?  

[00:48:27]
>> He was from Mississippi, I believe, and but the grades I got from his class I thought didn't reflect any bias one way or another.  

[00:48:38]
>> Okay.  I mean did you take his class, like, kind of as an experiment to see what it was or did you just happen to have him?  

[00:48:43]
>> Not as an experiment; I needed to get [laughter]-- it wasn't so much experience-- experiment, I needed to get that course as a, you know, requirement towards my whatever.  

[00:48:53]
>> Okay.  

[00:48:54]
>> I forget what the class was now.  

[00:48:59]
>> Got you.  

[00:48:59]
>> There were others that-- other professors that seemed to be, you know, just maybe ran contrary to forum.  One of my political science profs came from the deep south, but, you know, talk about a guy that, you know, was just open and friendly and so on; couldn't have asked for more, really.  I subsequently came up on him in Washington in years after he left Penn State.  He went back to working up on Capitol Hill; great guy, great guy.  

[00:49:33]
>> That's good.  So--  

[00:49:34]
>> So, some of the impressions you have, you know, you find out through personal experience may be just based upon the fact that professor came from a particular state or area, had a southern accent and whatever.  And yeah, I'm sure there were some that probably were prejudicial, you know, had their-- their biases.  I did not personally encounter any disadvantage.  

[00:50:00]
>> Okay, well that's good.  You said that there-- there was roughly 200 people; there's not a lot of representation for African Americans.  Do you think that was a fault of the university or just that blacks were discouraged to, you know, go to predominantly white university, or maybe didn't even have the opportunity for a lot of them to go to a university?  

[00:50:22]
>> I think some of it is situational.  With Penn State being in the center of the state, far removed from urban areas where blacks resided.  

[00:50:31]
>> Yeah.  

[00:50:31]
>> In the main.  I think that that had a lot to do with it.  But I think that the university leadership did not take proper recognition of its obligation to reach out to the black communities in Pittsburgh and Penn State and make express invitations, gestures showing interest in having black students come to Penn State.  I-- I came to think that over time that was kind of an inertia that had taken hold at the university and it was content to be, you know, a rural setting major university with agricultural and engineering interests and not focused on other areas of and segments of the population or the economy.  

[00:51:34]
>> Yeah.  I think it's certainly evolved today, like in terms of like the academic opportunities and then we're starting-- like the university is definitely trying to incorporate African Americans more, and include them more.  So--  

[00:51:50]
>> I think there's a recognition that within the culture of the United States the African experience, African American experience has provided a tremendous body, a treasure of contribution to the arts, the performing and the graphic arts, and the social structure of this country, and I think it was greatly unappreci-- underappreciated.  

[00:52:24]
>> No, certainly.  And contemporary historians, you know, are saying like for the last 50 years like mainstream history has been kind of like overlooking the African side of the American experience.  

[00:52:38]
>> That's right.  

[00:52:38]
>> And so now we're-- they're going back and trying to incorporate it in like recognizing all the contribution.  

[00:52:45]
>> Sure.  

[00:52:47]
>> So, just like a question kind of for my curiosity; Penn State, you know, we have the reputation as big state school, big party school; what was the-- what was the social life or party scene like for you?  

[00:53:01]
>> The party scene for me was primarily around the sororities and the fraternities; the Kappas, the Omegas, the you know, the Q's, the Deltas and the AKAs.  I understand there's another-- and then of course there's Alpha Psi Alpha, but that was an extremely small-- Alpha Psi Alpha, that is, was extremely small in number at that time and I think its numbers would rise and fall; they may be a larger number now.  And then there's another black fraternity of which-- by which I'm unfamiliar, but I understand exists.  But there-- the parties were at their houses, so I'd go down-- you know, go to the Q's house or I'd go to the Kappas and we would have just a great time being together and, you know, looking out for one another and experiencing the pleasure and company of people that look like us and had common experience.  

[00:54:09]
>> So, thank you for that.  I think just to close out the interview and you can say, you know, anything that you'd like to-- this is going to be added to Penn State's collection of oral history, so after I ask you the question you can say anything that like you'd like to be on the record, but is there anything you wish you had done differently during your time at Penn State?  

[00:54:39]
>> I think the one experience that I had not undertaken at Penn State was that of a semester abroad.  And I believe that that is an eye-opening opportunity for people to get a view of the world from a different focal lens, being overseas and having a chance to see how other people lived their lives and how they perceive those things that are valued versus perhaps what we consider to be things of greatest value or importance in life.  So, if I were to do it all over again, I think I would get involved in-- at some point during a sem-- for a semester abroad, or indeed if-- if it's just during a summer, even a summer experience abroad.  
[00:55:44]
The reason-- that's the reason why I fund an undergraduate fellowship to provide some support to students who are looking to study abroad.  

[00:55:55]
>> Yeah.  

[00:55:57]
>> Because that's something that I missed, something that I wish I had undertaken or explored and I would really advise, you know, African American students or any students, I tell everybody the same thing; if you have a chance to study abroad take it.  

[00:56:17]
>> That's a-- that's really good advice, you know.  That's definitely an enriching opportunity and like one of those things that you're not going to have a lot of opportunities to do it, besides the time you're in college.  

[00:56:28]
>> That's right.  Now I've done it professionally.  In the military I did have a chance to get overseas and I took advantage of the time that I would spend in some of these travels, but I travel a fair amount.  My wife has a job that involves international travel; we're taking off for Spain next week-- the end of this week, rather, Sunday.  But I've traveled extensively in my work experiences, when I was with the U.S. Government, with the Commerce Department, and with the music recording industry and so on.  So, you just-- you just learn a lot and you come to understand people's perspectives about, you know, what they treasure, what they-- they think about life and family; you see it through their culture when you have a chance to be exposed to it.  
[00:57:29]
That's valuable.  

[00:57:32]
>> Yeah.  Well Mr. Robinson--  

[00:57:35]
>> So, you're in ROTC, are you?  

[00:57:37]
>> I am.  I'm in Army.  

[00:57:39]
>> In which one, Army or-- ?  

[00:57:41]
>> Yeah, Army.  

[00:57:42]
>> Good.  

[00:57:42]
>> I really love it.  I mean I'm just a freshman but it's a ton of fun.  

[00:57:49]
>> Yeah it is and, you know, there's a lot to be-- lot to be learned from the military in terms of, one, discipline, self-discipline.  Secondly, I found-- I found that the ROTC classes were excellent laboratories for working on your relationship skills, your interpersonal communication skills, because we had to give lots of presentations, speeches of all different types in our classes, in our ROTC classes, and that really stood me in good standing later on in life.  

[00:58:28]
>> A lot of people don't have like an opportunity to be like trained in public speaking, so ROTC kind of forces you to learn, and then excel at it.  

[00:58:40]
>> Yeah.  There used to be a class in the general curriculum at Penn State, Speech 200 I guess it was called or Speech 100, I'm trying to remember the number now.  But everybody was required to take a public speaking course.  

[00:58:53]
>> Mm-hmm.  

[00:58:54]
>> And I found that by the time I had taken a couple of ROTC classes over, you know, semesters that the Speech 200 course was a natural, just easy.  

[00:59:11]
>> Yeah.  

[00:59:13]
>> But lots of people I knew in Army ROTC, they did very well.  One guy, Eddie Moore, went on to become the controller of the state of Virginia.  He is, I think at one time, he might have been the president of-- if Virginia Union University and maybe even at Hampton, but Eddie is a Penn Stater, Army ROTC.  Another guy, John Braxton, graduated from Penn State, Ar-- Army ROTC, then went on to law school; he's a judge in Philadelphia.  Another guy, Bruce Jenkins, was, you know, very much involved in the ROTC course, so yeah.  

[01:00:06]
>> Oh yeah.  You reap a lot of tangible benefits out of it and I just really love everything you do.  So, Mr. Robinson, for the sake of the cataloging of the oral histories they want us to keep it not-- they don't want us to go much over an hour, so.  

[01:00:26]
>> Yeah, that's fine.  

[01:00:28]
>> I'm going to close it out now.  Thank you so much for coming out.  It's been really-- you have a lot of wisdom for Penn State students and your-- your history is really really fascinating.  Just before I stop recording is there any just last thought that you would like to have recorded?  

[01:00:49]
>> Yeah, last thoughts are that black students and their families and friends and supporters should push state legislators to put pressure on the university, continue the pressure on the university to expand, increase the number of students of color, especially African American students, Hispanics, at all of the campuses of Penn State, the University Park, of course, not excluded.  And we should look toward a representation around the 12%, which would be in the vicinity of the representation of African Americans in the commonwealth of Pennsylvania.  

[01:01:37]
>> Alright, well that's good advice.  Thank you so much Mr. Robinson.  You have a nice day.  

[01:01:42]
>> My pleasure.  

[01:01:43]
>> You enjoy your trip.  Thanks again.  Bye bye.  

[01:01:45]
>> Thank you very much.  Bye bye.  

[00:00:04]

>> I'm good.  So you're going to walk the memory lane with me today?  

[00:00:08]
>> Yes.  I will.  

[00:00:10]
>> And you're a freshman, is that right?  

[00:00:12]
>> I am.  I'm a freshman.  I am studying international relations so far.  I don't know if I'm going to go with it.  But I hope so.  

[00:00:24]
>> But so what interested you in this particular course?  

[00:00:29]
>> I want to do a minor or a second major in history so I'm going through a lot of history courses.  

[00:00:37]
>> Okay.  

[00:00:38]
>> To see which one I want.  I like most so -- .  

[00:00:43]
>> Okay.  All right.  Well, you probably know I was a history major.  

[00:00:47]
>> Yes.  I do.  

[00:00:49]
>> Okay.  

[00:00:50]
>> That's one of the reasons why I chose you to be my interview.  

[00:00:54]
>> Okay.  Nothing to do with what I did for my career, but I enjoyed it so -- .  So I haven't ever not studied for a test at Penn State so I'm feeling a little [laughs] guilty.  So go ahead.  You got a lot of questions, I guess, and I'll do my best to answer them.  

[00:01:16]
>> Yes.  I got some.  Let's start.  First, in what other ways are you in contact with history other than your home in Boston?  

[00:01:27]
>> Well, we actually live, did I tell you we live in a home that was built during the Washington administration?  

[00:01:34]
>> Yes.  You did.  It was in a bio description.  

[00:01:39]
>> Okay.  So it's around me every day.  And the town is a historic town that we live in.  My wife used to be the chairman of the Historical Commission and she was also the chairman of the Maritime Museum which is a building that was built by Robert Mills, the same architect that built the Washington Monument among other things.  Lots of antique houses and significant buildings around.  So we're just kind of immersed in it.  There's nothing in particular that I do relating to history at this point in time, other than reading.  I'm reading a book on the naval history of World War II at the moment.  

[00:02:23]
>> That is really nice.  It must be really interesting to live there.  

[00:02:31]
>> Yeah.  My dad was in the Navy in World War II, and he was on all the theaters of operations, the North Atlantic in '42, the Mediterranean in '43, and the South Pacific in '44 and '45.  

[00:02:44]
>> Wow.  

[00:02:44]
>> This book covers all those theaters of operations.  So thought I would find out what my dad was doing back in the war.  

[00:02:52]
>> That is really nice.  What year is it you attend Penn State?  

[00:02:58]
>> I started in '68 and I graduated in '72.  

[00:03:03]
>> Great.  Why did you choose Penn State for your university education?  

[00:03:09]
>> I went to a small, private all boys' school in New Jersey and I couldn't wait to get out of there, quite frankly.  It was boarding school.  And I wanted to go to a large university with a football team and all the trappings that come with that and just be with a bunch of kids and I couldn't wait to get there.  I had friends who were applying to small colleges and I used to tell them, "We already did that.  That's what we've been doing for the last four years so you got to do something else".  So I did.  And I was very happy at Penn State.  

[00:03:49]
>> It must have been a really big change.  

[00:03:52]
>> It was but I was looking forward to it.  I had been there twice before and so I had seen the campus so it wasn't a total shock.  But it was, well, I'm near there now as a freshman.  Where did you grow up?  

[00:04:09]
>> I actually from Brazil.  I'm an international student so -- .  

[00:04:14]
>> I was going to say something to you.  I noticed your name looked Brazilian to me.  [Inaudible].  I had a Brazilian aunt.  

[00:04:20]
>> Oh, that's so cool.  Nice.  

[00:04:22]
>> Yeah.  And my cousins are half American, half Brazilian.  

[00:04:26]
>> Nice.  

[00:04:27]
>> So, yeah.  So I'd meant to say something about that but forgot.  

[00:04:33]
>> You also mentioned that Happy Valley was [inaudible] doing these events.  How did you feel about that?  Being a small city, a small town and everything.  

[00:04:44]
>> Well, you mean during all the events in 1968?  

[00:04:50]
>> Yes.  

[00:04:50]
>> How was -- .  Yeah.  But I mean, yeah, there was first of all what kind of, I remember everything was Vietnam.  I had a draft status which was 1S which means I had a student deferment, but while I was in school I lost that because they eliminated them.  And they started the lottery.  I'm not sure if you ever heard of that.  But basically they picked everybody by your birthday and if your birthday was in the low numbers, one, you know, through 20 or so, you were probably going to end up in Vietnam.  At lease that's the way it was looking.  There was a huge offensive at the beginning of '68 called the Tet Offensive that showed that the Vietnamese weren't going to cave in.  It was, I think it was a religious holiday in Vietnam and we weren't expecting the attack and they attacked on multiple fronts.  And a lot of people died, a lot of Vietnamese died.  
[00:05:53]
In fact, every night on the news, if you watched it, they would have a body count, if you can believe that.  

[00:06:00]
>> Wow.  That is -- .  

[00:06:01]
>> Yeah.  

[00:06:01]
>> I can't -- .  

[00:06:03]
>> Yeah.  They would say, they'd say, "We killed this many people and we lost this many".  And it was always five times as many Vietnamese but they weren't going anywhere.  We were the invaders and they were going to make sure that we didn't succeed so -- .  But that was kind of the, kind of hung over everything that went on to a certain extent.  

[00:06:26]
>> Yeah.  Wow.  You mentioned your major is history, right, and how did you decide to work for Johnson and Johnson after graduating?  

[00:06:36]
>> Well, I was going to go to law school and I was accepted at three but I didn't have enough money to go.  So I thought, "Well, maybe I ought to go get a job".  So it took me a little while to link up with J and J, but I did and they stuck me in rural Virginia where I couldn't do much damage to see if I could actually succeed.  So that, it was, actually I went to another college down in Charlotte.  

[00:07:08]
>> Wow.  Was there one particular course or professor that made a lasting impression on your studies?  

[00:07:16]
>> There was, there was, I took several, or maybe two or three courses by Dr. Franz [assumed spelling] and he was American History teacher, or professor.  And those were survey courses.  I might have five or six kids in the class.  So we would just talk about things that went on during the American Revolution so I still read about that stuff.  And I grew up in Washington Crossing, Pennsylvania.  That's where Washington crossed the Delaware.  

[00:07:47]
>> Mm-hmm.  

[00:07:48]
>> An attack the Hessians, the British, actually they were German soldiers, they were mercenaries hired by the British to fight the Americans.  And that was the first battle that the Continental Army won.  And I remember there were Revolutionary soldier graves along the Delaware River and they all died on Christmas Day so that was when the battle was.  And I remember thinking that was a tough, tough deal when I was a little kid.  

[00:08:20]
>> That really is.  

[00:08:21]
>> Yeah.  So, you know, I remember Dr. Franz.  I remember those courses and just, it was, you haven't gotten to the point where you earn those courses, but you basically talk about things and how things might have been, and what could have happened, what did happen.  So they were very interesting.  And I also took two courses in Vietnamese History but I couldn't remember the name of my professor.  He had worked in the American Embassy in Saigon which is now Ho Chi Minh City.  

[00:08:54]
>> Wow.  

[00:08:55]
>> So he taught that course and I figured maybe it would be a good idea to learn something about Vietnam.  I'm not sure it would have done me any good if I ended up over there but [laughs] but I didn't.  But that was interesting, too, because I learned a lot about the country and why we were there and whether it made any sense.  And, yeah, so, like I said, that was kind of overriding everything so I thought I'd learn more about it.  And I took other courses as well obviously, a European course.  My advisor was Dr. Green and I took a European History course from him.  I think it was eighteenth century as I recall.  Good guy.  So those are some of the courses I remember.  

[00:09:44]
>> Nice.  What was music like?  

[00:09:50]
>> Music.  Well, that's interesting you ask because one of my number one memories is music in the fall of '68.  Are you a rock music fan or do you like some other genre?  

[00:10:04]
>> I'm kind of mixed up.  It depends.  If it's good, I like it.  

[00:10:10]
>> Okay.  Well, one of the big albums, what we used to call them, you know, the vinyl albums.  

[00:10:18]
>> Mm-hmm.  Yeah.  

[00:10:19]
>> But was called "Cheap Thrills" it was by Big Brother and the Holding Company and their lead singer was Janis Joplin.  You ever hear of her?  

[00:10:30]
>> I think I have.  I don't -- .  

[00:10:32]
>> Okay.  Well.  

[00:10:33]
>> [Inaudible] music or anything.  

[00:10:35]
>> Okay.  Well, you could listen to "Piece of My Heart", that was their big hit, probably their biggest hit.  She went on to a solo career.  But turns out that concert at Penn State, which I think was in October.  

[00:10:49]
>> Wow.  

[00:10:50]
>> '68 was their last concert together.  She went solo after that.  Music wasn't as good, I didn't think.  But the Beatles released "The White Album" that fall, if you're familiar with that at all.  

[00:11:08]
>> Yeah.  

[00:11:09]
>> Credence Clearwater had their first big hit, if you're familiar with them, if you ever listen to classic rock.  That was "Suzy Q".  And Motown was still going strong.  So, yeah, I mean, "The White Album" you'd hear all the way to class.  I mean, people would have their windows open and you'd hear some song from "The White Album" seems like every day.  

[00:11:31]
>> Yeah.  Do you still listen -- ?  

[00:11:33]
>> But you'd walk -- .  

[00:11:33]
>> Is that your -- ?  

[00:11:36]
>> What's that?  

[00:11:37]
>> Do you still listen to these, or -- ?  

[00:11:39]
>> I do.  I do.  

[00:11:41]
>> Great.  

[00:11:42]
>> I listen, actually I listen to, I drive out to Maine on a regular basis because I'm doing some volunteer, not volunteer work, but I'm working part time for a non-profit and I like listen to the Underground Garage on SiriusXM.  

[00:11:58]
>> Yeah.  

[00:11:58]
>> And they play a lot of old stuff and new stuff.  And I also listen to the Spectrum, make sure I don't get too caught up in oldie stuff so I know what's going on.  So I like some of the current bands, too.  

[00:12:12]
>> That's nice.  Really good.  You mentioned some historical events happening during your freshman year in your post.  So how did you try to stay well informed of what was going on at that time?  

[00:12:28]
>> Well, one of the things that occurred while I was there that I remember was the Olympics in Mexico City.  

[00:12:37]
>> Ooh.  

[00:12:38]
>> And I'd tried to catch that.  I lived in Beaver Hall, 630 Beaver Hall was my room.  And, you know, I would try and stop, coming back from classes or before I went, to catch some of the events.  And there was the two American guys who came in first and second in the 100-meter dash, did the Black Panther salute during the American National Anthem.  And that was a point of great concern to a lot of people.  And then George Foreman who became a professional boxer, he won the heavyweight championship at those games and he was in the ring waving the American flag so that was kind of the opposite extreme.  So that was kind of interesting.  It was just a lot going on.  The Chicago Democratic Convention occurred just as I was getting ready to go to school and that was where there were, there was a lot of rioting.  

[00:13:48]
>> Yeah.  

[00:13:49]
>> You know about that, have you talked about that in class?  

[00:13:52]
>> We've been talking about that, yeah.  

[00:13:54]
>> Yeah.  About the Students for Democratic Society, the SDS, was there, Jerry Rubin, and I can't remember all of them but there were seven in particular that were actually convicted.  The SDS showed up at Penn State in the fall of '68, too.  

[00:14:13]
>> Wow.  

[00:14:13]
>> There was a protest, kids set up tents on Old Main, and it was called Walkertown, did you hear about that?  

[00:14:25]
>> I have, yes.  

[00:14:26]
>> Okay.  So Walkertown started as a protest because there weren't enough rooms for kids so they were living in the lounges in all the dormitories.  I think there were six guys.  Dorms were all either male or female so they're probably a combination now but back then it was all one or the other.  So there were six guys living in the lounge on my floor.  And, you know, as rooms opened up, as people left for various reasons, they would be assigned rooms.  But there weren't enough rooms for kids so they set up the tents and it started that way.  And then the SDS got involved.  And we played Army that year and General Westmoreland came to a game and he was kind of the face of Vietnam so there was a big protest about that.  Yeah, pretty interesting, interesting times.  

[00:15:20]
>> Yeah.  How did you get these news?  Like how did you obtain what was going on?  

[00:15:28]
>> Probably either, and it was some in the "Daily Collegian", there was, I would listen to the radio.  There was no FM station when I was a freshman.  It was an AM station, WRSC, I think, Radio State College.  And just that was probably about it.  I didn't watch TV or anything like that.  

[00:15:53]
>> Mm.  I do.  

[00:15:54]
>> Other than if there was some event that I really wanted to see like the Olympics, as I mentioned.  

[00:15:58]
>> Yes.  What were your particular interests at the time?  

[00:16:06]
>> My particular interests.  Well, let's see.  I mean I wanted to have a good time.  I was eighteen after all [laughs] that was -- .  And I, you know, I remember going to classes.  I still think a lot about one course I took which was a logic course.  And whatever, there's a controversial thing like we just went through with the hearings for the Supreme Court.  I think about that course and some of the things I learned and the logic or lack thereof in people's arguments.  And so that's something that's stayed with me.  I can't remember any other courses I took as a freshman but I remember that one.  

[00:16:51]
>> Mm-hmm.  

[00:16:51]
>> I'm sure I may, I think I took Biology.  That was in the forum.  There were about 400 of us in there, in that class.  But I mean you know how it goes with those big courses.  I'm sure there's lots of them.  

[00:17:05]
>> I do.  

[00:17:05]
>> Don't -- .  Yeah.  [Inaudible].  

[00:17:07]
>> I'm sorry.  Go on.  

[00:17:10]
>> There was one in the, in Schwab Auditorium, G-Sci 20, that was billed as the only course you could take a date to because the professor, his name was Dr. Latman [phonetic spelling], was so entertaining he actually taught the course from onstage.  And you weren't allowed to take notes.  At the end of the class he would put everything you needed to get an A in his course on a board and you'd write it down and he said "If you know this material, you're all set".  So I learned a lot.  I think about things that he taught us, too, just because it was so entertaining.  But I don't think I was a freshman.  And I might have been a sophomore.  

[00:17:55]
>> Were you a history major since the freshman year or not?  

[00:18:01]
>> No.  I started in Political Science.  I thought that would be better for law school which was what I kind of had my eyes on.  I don't know, I didn't really like political science actually.  I thought history was a lot more interesting.  

[00:18:20]
>> Do you regret not going to law school?  

[00:18:23]
>> No.  Actually I had a very interesting career.  I ran a medical business for fifteen years and learned a lot about medical equipment.  Actually came up with ideas that were developed into medical equipment.  So I was very happy doing that stuff, helping patients.  

[00:18:53]
>> That's great.  

[00:18:54]
>> Yeah.  It was.  Nothing to do with history but I kind of, you know, I had a liberal arts education so -- .  

[00:19:01]
>> Yeah.  

[00:19:01]
>> I think that's, my daughter who was a Penn State grad, was an English major, she's had a great career now.  She's also in, she's in the pharmaceutical industry doing  

[00:19:16]
>> Wonderful.  

[00:19:17]
>> HR, specifically, and a lot of social media stuff.  So, you know, it just, I think there's a lot to be said for a good liberal arts education, not that -- .  

[00:19:27]
>> There is.  

[00:19:28]
>> Yeah.  So for whatever that's worth.  

[00:19:31]
>> Well, this is my last question.  And what is one suggestion that you would offer to current students at Penn State?  

[00:19:44]
>> Explore different things in terms of the courses you're taking, things that you think you might be interested in.  Again, this kind of gets back to my bias for liberal arts.  You can do that more in a curriculum like that than you can if you go into accounting or something else.  Unless you're really determined that that's what you want to be, if you feel -- .  When I was a student, I was thinking about law school.  I ended up getting in and then couldn't go.  But I don't think I was so determined to go that I think I just didn't really know, couldn't come up with a better thing to build a career on.  So that's, you know, I didn't know anything about medical stuff.  

[00:20:32]
>> Yeah.  

[00:20:32]
>> When I was at Penn State, I wasn't a pre-med major.  So that would be my advise to the extent you can, look at different things, find out what you're interested in, and get involved in stuff.  So I got my, I got, I had started to rehab a knee and I got into swimming and at Penn State I got my MC leader examiner, I got my, let's see what else.  Red Cross instructor's badge.  I took scuba.  I ended up working as a life guard there for the university.  

[00:21:10]
>> Wow.  [Inaudible].  

[00:21:11]
>> [Inaudible] in the summers.  So, yeah, I had a good time doing a lot of different things.  

[00:21:19]
>> That is so good.  Thank you so much for your time and for everything.  

[00:21:24]
>> You're quite welcome.  You've got my email so if you have any questions about anything that comes up in class, just want a perspective, I'll be happy to answer them for you.  How's that?  

[00:21:37]
>> Thank you so much once again.  

[00:21:40]
>> Okay, Julia.  Nice talking with you.  

[00:21:41]
>> Nice talking with you.  

[00:21:44]
>> Take care.  Good luck.  

[00:21:45]
>> You, too.  Thank you.  

[00:21:46]
>> Bye-bye.  

[00:21:48]
>> Bye.  

[00:00:00]

>> My name is James R. Antoniono.  I attended Penn State from June of 1968 through June of 1971.  Okay.  I went straight through summer, so I went through in three years.  

[00:00:15]
>> And what made you choose Penn State for your university education?  

[00:00:23]
>> I got accepted.  It's, I don't know to what extent you believe in having prior lives, but I grew up in a family where my mother and father both had like sixth-grade educations, so college wasn't something that was every discussed or part of my life.  I knew no relatives that went to Penn State at the time.  Later, I found out I had a cousin who went here, but I didn't know that then.  But as a young kid I was just fascinated by Penn State football, for example, in the 50s.  You could get it in a radio station in Pittsburgh.  And even when I was in the Army, we'd beat Ohio State, I think in the fall of '64 it was a big upset that they were number one and we were not of rank.  I was so excited by it.  I don't know why I had this love for Penn State, but it's always been there, and I would have these dreams of walking on a campus.  And it wasn't, I mean it wasn't a clear picture of a campus, but this foggy campus.  But it was the walkway coming up here to the library through all the trees.  

[00:01:21]
>> Yeah.  

[00:01:22]
>> It was kind of similar to that.  And so I just, when I'm on campus, I just feel like I'm home.  And it's a real peace.  And I just, I always wanted to come here and never thought, my grades were never good in high school, never thought I'd have the opportunity.  And then when I came out of the Army, I got accepted here.  And it was a chance that I never thought I'd have.  So I was extremely happy.  

[00:01:43]
>> That's great.  So what was your major while you were here?  

[00:01:47]
>> Political science.  

[00:01:49]
>> Okay.  And then was there a particular course or professor that made a lasting impact on you or your studies.  

[00:01:57]
>> I was older when I got here, obviously.  I had a year of college before going into the Army, and then I had my four years in the Army.  So I was like five years out of high school.  So I was the age of most of the graduate students who were here, maybe slightly older than them.  So, in talking to other political science majors, the few that I run into, especially older students, Professor Atwater at the time, Elton Atwater was considered one of the best advisors you could have in political science.  But they said he's really, he's in demand, and everybody wants him.  If you go in the office, they'll give you to somebody else because they'll say he doesn't have room for you.  They said if you find him somewhere and you corner him and ask him if he'll take you on, he can't say no.  So I just kind of hung out in political science.  I sat in the political science office one time until I could see him.  I walked up to him and I said, I hear you're really a good professor, and would you be my advisor.  Of course, he said yes.  And then I walked in the political science office and said I've already talked to Professor Atwater, and he said he would be my advisor.  
[00:02:59]
So, that's why I got him.  We just had a wonderful relationship the three years I was here.  And didn't listen to a lot of things he told me and wish I had.  But he was just a great guy to talk to and a good father figure kind of.  

[00:03:12]
>> That's good.  So do you think he kind of shaped any of your personal beliefs?  

[00:03:18]
>> No, not really.  We didn't, you know, it wasn't a personal kind, you know, he would talk to me about the kind of courses I was taking.  He always wanted me to take more economic courses, and I hated economics because it was so dry.  And he said but you know, it's so important to everything that you do.  Economics is the driving force behind kind of everything that happens, because he understands that.  But when I was in college my first time around, I was an economy major, so I had to take economics there and just hated it.  It was so dry.  And --  

[00:03:48]
>> I get that.  

[00:03:50]
>> So I did take one economics course, and I've regretted it ever since because it is the foundation of pretty much everything that's done.  So I wish I would have listened to him and maybe been an economics minor or something.  But he was the advisor for the model UN on campus.  And so because of him, I was involved in model UN for a couple of years here.  So, actually, the department I liked the most at the end was history.  But I had a bad experience with my first history course I took, and I just kind of, it soured me against history until about a year later I took a course and fell in love with it.  And then I found out there was a lot of other great professors in history.  So if I had found that out first time, I might have been even a history major.  

[00:04:40]
>> Yeah, I'm actually a history major, so I like all my teachers so far.  But I'm kind of nervous for scheduling.  

[00:04:46]
>> Well, there is, at that time there was this Aspeteri [phonetic], it started with an A I think.  But he taught South American history, and he was noted for just being a fabulous professor.  And I don't know if you're taking South American history, but a lot of those countries change, they change governments faster than I change clothes, you know.  It's like every year there's a new government, new whatever.  He would teach the history of those various countries without any notes in front him, without any books in front of him.  He's tell like a story.  And you'd sit there mesmerized and realize like 15, 20 minutes into lecture, I should be taking notes because I'm going to be tested on this.  And you were just so fascinated.  You're spellbound by it.  And he's just, just an amazing, amazing guy.  And I thought wow, and then I find out there's some other professors equally as good.  And by then, I was a senior and it was too late to do much about it.  But it was a great department.  I tell you my bad experience with history.  And it's an interesting concept.  Because of again, being older, and I had been in Germany for two and half years in the Army, so I had an interest in German because I end up with German as a language while I was here.  
[00:05:57]
And having spent time in East Germany, West Germany, and so I took my first history course was, I think, it's German 1865 or whatever to present, and it starts with the Bismarck area comes forward.  And it was fascinating to me, because again, I'd been to most of the cities in Germany, and I kind of knew Germany from just being there.  I went to the library and I looked up all these books that they had on German history, and I was, in addition to my reading assignments and the course books we were supposed to take for the course, I was reading all these outside books.  And just lapping up everything that I could get in German, because I just loved it so much.  So those were ten-week term courses, and so you had a three-week test, a six-weeks test and a final.  So you had three grades, and that was your, that's how most courses tested.  So I'm going into the first course and by then I've read like three or four German books on the history in addition to what I was supposed to read for my assignment.  And so I go in and get these questions, and I'm just writing away, and I think man, I aced, plus, plus, plus, plus, plus, you know, and I'm just so excited when I leave.  
[00:07:06]
A week later or whenever we get our papers back, I had like a C. I absolutely flipped out.  And again, not being an 18-year-old freshman and being a 20-some-year-old kid and having spent four years in the Army, I just, I walked into his office and I slammed his door.  And he's sitting there, and I said what the F is this?  And I threw that paper down on his desk, and he said, well that's, I mean, he said half the stuff you wrote is not accurate.  And I said, what do you mean it's not accurate.  Because I was writing stuff that I read in these other books.  It wasn't, it was a different theory of what happened or different perspective of what happened in German history that he didn't agree with.  I got, and he said, you're telling me you lived during this 18, this period of time, and you know exactly.  And even if you lived during the period, it doesn't mean you've got an accurate idea of what happened.  It's just that's your perspective of it, right.  And I said, what makes you think that what you're saying is right and all this stuff I wrote is wrong?  What if I wrote it right and what you're teaching is garbage?  
[00:08:06]
A blah, blah, blah, you know.  So we went, and I didn't back down and he didn't back down, and we just butted heads for like 15, 20 minutes.  And I just, I walked out, slammed the door again.  And he wouldn't change my grade, wouldn't reconsider it.  And the next two tests we got, the six week and the final, I barely, I just did the minimal stuff that needed to be done in the class.  I didn't do any, I was just so frustrated.  I got As on both of those papers, even though they were probably average at best.  Because he knew he was wrong, in my mind, anyway, I sensed.  But he just wouldn't --  

[00:08:38]
>> It sounds like it.  

[00:08:39]
>> He would not give in.  I ended up getting like a B or a B plus for the course.  But it was, and that just soured me to history.  And after that I just thought, you know, this is garbage.  I'm not taking any more history courses.  

[00:08:50]
>> There's just kind of like an uncontrollable bias when history is being taught, at least that's what I've noticed.  

[00:08:56]
>> Yeah, the perspective that they want you to buy into that may.  I don't know if you're read the book The History of the United States from like 1500s to present.  It's a really interesting book.  It gives you a whole different perspective of American history than what you learn all through school.  You know, like we gave blankets to the Indians that were contaminated with smallpox because we knew it would kill the whole group of Indians, the tribe or whatever.  I mean, things that we did were terrible, you know, that they don't teach you about.  But there are things that actually happened.  So, you know, perspective you read on history and what actually happens in history or what you think happened even when you lived through it and what's real may not necessarily be true, because, you know, it's all in how you perceive it through whatever you have in your brain and whatever background you bring to the table colors how you perceive things happened.  And you know, I can tell you this happened in a certain period of time because I was there.  
[00:10:01]
But that may not be truly reality.  It may be something different because I just perceive it differently from the way I looked at it.  So that makes it interesting, you know.  There's no right or wrong answers when you study history in my mind.  

[00:10:16]
>> That's kind of what I like about it.  

[00:10:19]
>> Yes.  

[00:10:19]
>> Because you can look at it from anyone's perspective.  

[00:10:22]
>> Yeah, and so, and that's what I like about law that I didn't like about, you know, because I have a master's degree in political science.  And throughout your educational process, and I'm not sure what it's like to go get a PhD, but at least through master's level, it to me is that you're taught a certain set of information.  And you're expected to regurgitate that back in some form, period.  

[00:10:50]
>> Yeah.  

[00:10:50]
>> And that's what they're looking for.  And if you don't do it, you're not going to get a good grade.  If you do it, you're going to get a good grade.  And law school is the exact opposite.  You and I could take a test.  I could answer, take a fact situation and answer black.  You could take the same fact situation, answer white.  You could get an A, and I could get an A even though we came up with two different answers.  Or you and I could both get Fs.  The answer we come up with has nothing to do with how we're graded.  It's how did you go from point A to point Z, you know, using the facts that are there.  How did you analyze those facts?  How did you bring those facts into play to come to your conclusion?  And so it's how did you think about the problem that you get graded on, not what you came to.  And for the first time, it takes almost close to a year in law school to realize.  Because at first you think, what am I learning here, you know.  Because you're not learning anything in the sense of memorizing points A, B, C and D. You're learning how to think.  
[00:11:52]
Well, learning how to think doesn't give you answers.  It just teaches you to ask questions and think.  And that's the great thing, I mean everybody should go to law school for that perspective if it didn't cost you 200 or $300,000, it would be awesome, you know.  Because it just teaches people to think.  And college and graduate school, it doesn't teach you how to think in my mind.  At least not in the same way.  So, it's, yeah.  It's a different perspective.  

[00:12:19]
>> My one goal in life is to be able to think with a worldly mindset.  I don't know if that makes sense, but --  

[00:12:27]
>> Sure.  

[00:12:27]
>> I just want to have that sociological imagination where I can just look at things.  

[00:12:33]
>> It's just like, I don't know if you've ever watched Al Jazeera TV.  

[00:12:36]
>> I read the website.  

[00:12:39]
>> It's a whole different perspective in what's happening in the world.  You know, we used to be able to get it at home in the Pittsburgh area, and it no longer is an option.  But when I travel internationally, I love to turn on Al Jazeera and watch their news, because it's just, it's not an unbiased, but it's a different perspective.  And it teaches you that A, the stuff we're learning here is not necessarily accurate 100%, and we're not getting the full story.  

[00:13:03]
>> Yeah.  

[00:13:03]
>> Yeah.  

[00:13:05]
>> So what was your time in Germany like?  

[00:13:07]
>> It was fascinating.  It was the first time I'd ever been really out of the country.  I went over there as a probably a 19-year-old.  I went to Berlin, which is circled by the Russians in a city that had a wall around it.  If they went to capture Berlin, we were, as part of the military, we were told that, we were asked to hold the city for three days.  That's the most they thought we could hold it until they could hopefully get help to us or rescue us or whatever.  But there's no way you could have held it, in my mind, even three days would have been tough.  Because they had more tanks around Berlin than we had soldiers in Berlin.  So in that sense, every now and then you get the feeling that, you know, hey, I'm totally encircled here, you know.  But I was fortunate enough, I mean, things happened to me that just, you know, I look back at it and just pinch myself.  For some reason, I was selected to become part of this US military liaison mission that operated out of Berlin.  
[00:14:10]
Actually, East Germany, Potsdam East Germany.  At the end of World War II, you know, they divided Germany up into four parts.  Each of the countries, French, British, Russians and Americans, the victors, kind of cut Germany in pieces.  And we each had a piece.  So then he took the capital of Berlin, and they also cut that into four pieces so that was a British section, an American section, French section and a Russian section.  And what happened evolved over the first few years of the postwar era was that the French, American and British sections of West Germany were combined in West Germany into one country.  We gave up our kind of control of it and made a separate country there.  And the reason that was done was nobody trusted the Russians.  None of the three allied powers trusted the Russians.  So, the Russians had, so we, so part of the Potsdam Agreement was that the four countries would exchange missions with each other, essentially us with the Russians, the British with the Russians, the French with the Russians.  
[00:15:18]
So they had a mission, I'm not sure whether they had three missions or one big mission, but they had missions in West Germany.  And each of the three Allied powers, each had our own missions in East Germany.  And that's what the unit I was called, the US military liaison mission, and we operated out of Potsdam East Germany.  I think we all three operated out of Potsdam.  But so we were the only members of the military in Berlin that could cross the wall anytime we wanted.  We had passes, Russian passes, and we could get across.  And we, the path across for us was the Glienicke Bridge, which is, if you saw Bridge of Spies, that the Bridge of Spies, where Gary Powers exchanged for Hess, not Hess, but Adolf, Abel, the Russian spy.  They met in the center of Glienicke Bridge and made the exchange.  Now I was told, I got there two and a half years, let's say, after that incident occurred, and I was told that our mission unit played a role in that exchange.  
[00:16:24]
It doesn't say that in the movie, and I don't know whether that's true or not.  I was, obviously, I wasn't there.  But --  

[00:16:28]
>> That's crazy.  

[00:16:29]
>> I would drive across that bridge, I probably did that 50, 7,500 times across that bridge.  That wasn't, checkpoint alpha was in the middle of Berlin, and that's where tourists and normal people would cross over into East Berlin.  And then from there, go into East Germany.  There was checkpoint bravo, which is coming into Berlin from East Germany.  And checkpoint, I may have gotten them backwards, checkpoint Charlie was in the center of town.  Checkpoint bravo was the outskirts of Berlin coming in from East Germany.  And checkpoint alpha was down by, coming from Frankfurt towards Berlin, there was a checkpoint there where you could cross from actually West Germany into East Germany.  There were three checkpoints.  And we didn't use any of those checkpoints.  We had this private bridge that we could go across that had a Russian shack with like Russian MPs or guards that we would then show our passes to.  They'd let us in.  So, that was my first experience.  And I went over as a personnel management specialist, that was my training in the Army.  
[00:17:34]
And we had an office in Berlin as well as the Potsdam office.  And so I was in Berlin just doing administrative work.  And while I was there, after about a year, something close to that, the drivers, we had, we'd go out in East Germany, there was usually a car, and there'd be a driver, an officer, so the enlisted driver would drive the car, officer would do whatever he was doing in terms of spying on the Russians and East Germans.  And we lost one of our drivers because either he discharged or got sent to Vietnam, I'm not sure which, but they were looking around, they needed a replacement driver.  And they asked those of us who were not drivers, you know, if we had any driving experience, whatever.  And I had raced sports cars back here when I was younger.  So, they gave me a road test.  I went out and there was an actual forest in West Berlin called the Grunewld, and I went there with a car and I passed my test, so I ended up becoming a driver.  
[00:18:34]
And that gave me the opportunity to see what it was like to actually, you know, drive in East Germany and spy on the Russians and had some really interesting experiences doing that.  After about, I don't know, three, four, five tours, I was with an officer who was somewhat crazy, and he was, this was the last trip, and he wanted to be a hero and go out and make these great discoveries and see things.  We snuck onto this Russian base and got caught.  So as a result of that, my pass was pulled, and I was no longer able to drive in East Germany.  And once you've had that taste of the excitement of being in a car and doing 100-plus miles an hour and being chased by the East Germans and the Russians, you know, to sit at a desk and do personnel stuff was just no fun.  So, I found out about a job that was in an intelligence office for the US commander of Berlin that was open.  It was ranked higher, an E-6 position.  So I applied for it.  And because I was coming from the mission, and everybody thought mission guys were gods in Berlin because we could do all these fancy things.  
[00:19:37]
We had cars that would do 160 miles an hour, and we were like James Bond kind of people.  I was like a Rockstar in terms of the military there, so they grabbed me right away.  But the nice thing about that was my last year plus in Berlin I got to see all of the intelligence activities because intelligence in the military is a need to know.  So you know what your responsibilities are.  You know what you're supposed to do, but I don't know what the guy next to me is doing or somebody in the other agencies doing, because it's, I don't need to know that.  So I just need to know what I'm doing.  But when I was working on general staff and his intelligence office that coordinated all the intelligence activities in Berlin or Germany, East Germany, I got to see everything that was going on intelligence-wise.  And it gave me a whole bigger perspective.  

[00:20:21]
>> That is so cool.  

[00:20:22]
>> So, you know, out of the best of both worlds of being a year plus in the mission and doing the things that nobody else in Berlin got to do.  And then I got to step up and look at the whole perspective.  And that was, so, it's, that is what colored me against the Vietnam War.  I ran into officers who had come back from Vietnam, and this would be '67, '68, and by then, I heard the stories of villages being just slaughtered like My Lai incident before it ever became public to the rest of the world.  And I just thought, this isn't right.  We shouldn't be there.  And so by the time I got out in June of '68, I was totally committed to doing whatever I could to stop the Vietnam War.  And a year earlier, I had been in civilian clothes when I was in the general's office helping the CIA and different groups spy on anti-war demonstrations at Americans, non-military Americans living in Berlin were raging against our government.  And here I am, you know, spying on them so to speak to become one of them, within a year and a half later.  
[00:21:27]
So, you know, Germany gave me the perspective of seeing our country from outside the country.  Especially when you live outside for two and a half years like I did.  You become de-Americanized to some extent.  You know, you have a whole different perspective of what's happening in the world.  And so I've never been the same since, you know.  I think I have a different, and I've always loved international after that, international law, international issues.  I still get Foreign Affairs every quarterly, every so often.  I'll get so many for a year or two and then have so many back issues I haven't read, I stop getting it for a couple years.  And then I'll pick it up again.  But those, you know, reading or listening to history and international, what's happening in the world, would not have been there but for the fact that I was fortunate enough to be in the Army and got to go to Germany.  So Germany probably had, if I had to pick any one thing that had the largest impact on my life it was the fact that I was in Germany for those two and a half years.  
[00:22:31]
And being there for that length of time, I would have initially come back in the summer of '67.  But I had just gotten married that December, and my wife [inaudible] had been there about six months when I was getting ready to rotate back.  And we didn't have a chance to really visit too many places.  So I waited until the very last minute, because I knew if I extended for another year too soon I'd be sent to Vietnam.  So I waited until I was down to my last couple of weeks in the service, and then I extended for another year because by the time they figured out I was in for another year, I'd be down to like eight or nine months again.  So that's why I got to stay in Berlin for two and a half years.  So yeah, Germany was huge.  Germany and Penn State are probably the two biggest things that impacted my life.  

[00:23:16]
>> So, you were invited to the White House to discuss the Vietnam policy with Henry Kissinger.  

[00:23:22]
>> Yes.  

[00:23:23]
>> So, what was that like for you?  

[00:23:26]
>> It was fascinating.  I got there late because I had a test I had to take that morning here on campus, and I was going to fly out of Harrisburg to D.C., and there's two airports in Harrisburg that I didn't realize you could fly out of.  And I just went to the one I knew about.  And I had, by then, I had my hair was back down to about my shoulders, and I had a beard.  And I stopped at some gas station and asked where the, you know, I said I'm flying to Harrisburg.  And I think the guy on purpose sent me to the wrong airport.  And I get to the airport, and you know, this was pre-911, you could just run up and get on an airplane.  So I come running into the airport and I said, you know, I have a flight that's leaving in a few minutes for, and she looked and she said we don't have any flights to D.C. That's the other airport.  And I was like a half hour across town and said there's no way I'm getting there before the flight takes off.  So I just jumped in the car, and I flew down as fast as I could drive from Harrisburg to D.C. Get to the White House probably 10 or 15 minutes after I was supposed to be there and ushered in.  
[00:24:27]
It was in the basement of the White House in a conference room.  And Henry is, it's a kind of huge conference table, rectangular table, he's sitting at the head of it.  And all the other invited students were around the table, and I just pulled up a chair, just to his left, right, on the corner of the table.  So I'm sitting like right beside him at this meeting.  And it was really, I think we were there for a couple hours, two, two and a half hours with him.  And it was set up because what had been happening on college campuses is that things, somewhat simmered down, but there were a lot of demonstrations happening.  And I think the government had forced the media to stop covering events on campuses because they didn't want to give publicity.  So, it sounded like, you know, the anti-war demonstration was going away and not something we're worried about.  And they had invaded Cambodia prior to that, and we'd called for Nixon's impeachment.  
[00:25:28]
In fact, I was invited down to the National Press Club to do that as one of the seven or eight student leaders that called for Nixon's impeachment.  And things had kind of simmered down after that.  And the National Student Association who set this meeting, I think it was them that set up a meeting, wanted to convey to Kissinger that, you know, you can't do what you want to try to control the media and not have these events.  But if you pull another Cambodia invasion or anything like that, the campuses are going to erupt again.  And it's not all peaches and cream out there.  There's just as much opposition to the war now as there was before you invaded Cambodia.  It's not going away any time soon if it ever, and we need to do something to stop the war.  So, that was the general tenure [phonetic] of the arguments.  And he would say things, and the ground rules which were repeated to me since I came in late, was that we were not allowed to quote him specifically about anything that was said.  And it was kind of an off-the-record discussion.  
[00:26:28]
But, you know, I've read his memoirs, and essentially what he said, same thing in his memoirs, he said to us and that is, you know, we've already lost at that point I think 30-some thousand American soldiers.  And if we just stopped and pulled out right now, what would you say to the families that lost people over there that we just walked away.  And so, you know, our response was, so we're going to kill another 20,000 because we already lost 30,000.  That's going to somehow justify the fact you've already killed X number of young people, and you're just going to keep killing more just because you can't say you made a mistake and leave.  And what's, you know, what's victory over there?  What's it look like?  There's no way you're going to have victory in Vietnam.  We just, we didn't have any friends really.  So many people, the puppets that we paid were, you know, there because we put them in power.  The people weren't with us.  It was just, it was a mess.  And it was an interesting discussion.  But if you read his memoirs, you'd probably get the same sense of what the arguments that we heard that morning, or that afternoon.  

[00:27:35]
>> So do you think that your call for Nixon's impeachment was overall well-received by your peers, or was there some --  

[00:27:42]
>> It depends where you're talking about.  At Penn State it was not.  

[00:27:47]
>> Yeah.  

[00:27:47]
>> It was [inaudible].  Yeah, it made headlines from Pittsburgh to Philadelphia in the national, in all the statewide newspapers, the major newspapers in the state that, you know, the president, the Student Government of Penn State called for Nixon's impeachment.  Of course, you know, we didn't have anything to do with it.  It was Watergate, and it was impeachment.  And, yeah, it was just one, in fact, what had happened, I got a call, I think the news came out early that evening, early one evening, I don't even remember what day of the week it was.  But the news bulletins came across that Americans, and I think it's not the first time we were in Cambodia, but it was one of the first times it became publicly known.  And I remember within an hour or two getting a call from the National Student Association saying look, we're putting together delegation to go to the National Press Club tomorrow to call for Nixon's impeachment, would you be part of it?  I said absolutely, you know.  So, I drove down to that.  And what was interesting on our campus here was, when I ran, I had by the spring of my junior year, I had shorter length hair, I had a full beard, and I was asked to run for president by a group, that's a whole other story, but they said look, you've got to get clean cut.  
[00:29:03]
You can't run with long hair and beard and all that kind of stuff.  So, I almost looked like I had just come out of the military.  I had short hair, sidewalls, and my hair was really short.  I had no beard.  And I looked like a true conservative student on campus.  But I was supported by SDS, the left-wing student radical groups.  I'm not sure about the Black Student Union.  I think they might, they probably just sat the election out is my thought.  But if they were supporting anybody, it would have been me.  But I walk, I'll never forget this, I was walking across from like the library here over to West Halls.  There's like an inner commons area at West Halls around the buildings, there's that little inside area.  I was walking through there to go to, I think the campaign in one of the dorms in West Halls, and this guy walks up to me and introduces himself as the president of YAF, Young Americans for Freedom, and that was the right-wing student group on campus.  And I said, you know, glad to meet you and shook his hand.  
[00:30:06]
And he said, we're going to support for president of the Student Government.  And I said hey, that's fabulous.  I really appreciate your support.  He never once asked me about my position on any one issue.  Just said, we're supporting you.  Our group's going to go out and work for you and help you get elected.  And I said thank you very much, and it was like a two-minute conversation.  And he moved on.  I moved on.  Never thought more about it.  Of course, when the news broke in The Collegiate and all the other papers that I had called for Nixon's impeachment, they went bananas.  They were, article in the paper and I had deceived to them.  And I called the guy, I called [inaudible] or whatever, and I said tell me where, tell me what don't I remember about our conversation?  What did you ask me that I told you that I misled you and my position?  And there was this like deer in the headlights look almost.  And I said, I don't remember you asking me one time where I stood on any issue.  And there was like this silence.  If you would have asked me, I would have told you.  I wouldn't have lied to you.  
[00:31:06]
I'd have told you exactly where I stand.  You didn't ask me, and you know, you offered support and I thanked you for it, and you walked away.  I walked away.  And it's your problem if you didn't ask the right questions.  But, you know, it wasn't my fault.  You know, you should have investigated where I stood more on the issues.  So, they were not happy with me, obviously.  And most of the students, and they probably reflected the student body.  Although, you know, by the time I graduated, I don't think we were ever a majority, but we were, we had a sizeable number of people opposed to the war by '71 that we didn't have, when I came here in '68, there was maybe 40 or 50 of us meeting in a friend's meeting house.  It was on South Atherton if I remember correctly.  They had a little church group there that we would meet in their basement.  And they were like 30 or 40 of us sitting around in a room talking about the war.  And that was it.  That was out of 20,000 kids, that was it.  And by that next spring, there were thousands of people, you know.  
[00:32:07]
But out of 20,000, that's probably 10, 15, 20% of the student body opposed to the war.  So I don't think we were ever [inaudible] here.  It was pretty conservative campus.  And that's why I was attractive to National Student Association.  A, I was a military veteran, which, you know, there wasn't a whole lot of us.  John Kerry was out there.  There was a few other military veterans that were willing to speak up against the war.  So I fit that category.  And then secondly, I came from a very conservative campus that, for the most part, you know, supported Nixon, you know, supported the war.  So coming from, again, a conservative campus and being ex-military, I was, you know, I checked all the right boxes in terms of national student leadership.  

[00:32:51]
>> Do you think you being a veteran and also part of the anti-war movement, do you think that kind of like contributed to how people viewed you, like in the public eye?  

[00:33:06]
>> You know, I'm not sure.  If you polled my class, for example, 1971, if you found 5% that knew of me, even at the time I graduated, that knew my name or knew of me, that would be probably be, I was not one of those people who was like a campus rockstar that knew I was.  I can remember one time being in this library.  I went to take out a book, and I don't think I had my, I must not have had any identification on me, and I needed this book for something.  And the librarian asked me for my student ID card or whatever, and I didn't have it.  And she says well, does anybody here know you?  And I said, I don't think so.  And I was, it was like towards the end of my year as president of Student Government.  And I don't know, maybe if I'd asked somebody I would have been, but I think for the most part I was A, because, you know, I had this different look when I ran.  And by the time that was in, the election was in April or so, and by next September, the full year of my presidency, by then my hair had grown back considerably more.  
[00:34:10]
And I just kind of did things.  I didn't, you know, I didn't go out and get a lot of publicity for myself.  So, I don't know, people didn't really know who I was for the most part.  I just got a lot done my year but didn't really know who I was.  So I run into people all the time and they say, when did you graduate?  I was '71 or '72 or I'll say, I was president of Student Government in '70, '71.  They say what is your name, and I tell them, and it's not, and it's not oh you're so and so.  I don't get that from most people, that hint of recognition.  You know, so.  It was just, it was fun though.  I enjoyed it.  There was just so many interesting things going on.  

[00:34:51]
>> So, other than like Student Government, what were you other interests at the time?  

[00:34:59]
>> Interesting question.  On campus you mean, pretty much, you're talking about, or just in general?  

[00:35:04]
>> Overall, what were you --  

[00:35:06]
>> Well, you know, I was married the whole time I was here.  I had a daughter born my middle by then December of my senior year.  So that's what was really amazing I got elected because I wasn't, I didn't come from a fraternity group.  I didn't live in the dorms where I met 100, I mean, I lived in an apartment just on North Burrow Street across from, actually across from The Lion Inn.  I didn't know very many people on campus, so I was pretty much an unknown.  I should have never got elected president of the Student Government based on, I mean I was, when they listed the five candidates, there were these four people and then there's this unknown person, which was me, you know, running, and we just ran an amazing campaign and got elected.  But yeah, I just, I just wasn't known.  And so my activities were, other than the model UN, Student Government.  
[00:36:06]
And that was pretty much it.  And of course, you know, being in Student Government I was, I had positions just by virtue of my position.  Like I sat on the yearbook board.  I was, I don't know what it's called, the supreme court or what it was, but it was a student group that had a rule before a student could be thrown out of, for disciplinary reasons, we had a, not necessarily a trial-trial, but kind of like a trial where you have a hearing and take testimony.  And we had a vote before a student could get thrown off campus.  So there's various positions like that that I held just because of, you know, as president you had that job, you know, kind of thing.  So, yeah interesting.  But I can't think of anything, other actual student organizations that I was actually a member of.  So I was, I ran for student senate from town.  And I was like, I think I had seven delegates to be elected, and I was seventh out of seventh to get elected.  
[00:37:09]
And my, that year that I spent in the student senate was, I pretty much was cochaired or headed up any of the anti-war activities that the Student Government was getting involved in.  Like we sent a group of people down for the October march in D.C. that had 200,000 people.  We sent buses down, and I organized that.  So, are you familiar with Lion's Paw, the senior society?  

[00:37:33]
>> I've heard of it.  

[00:37:34]
>> Yeah, then it was secret.  Now it's pretty much everybody knows who Lion's Paw.  Then it was, I didn't know Lion's Paw.  I didn't know there was such an organization.  Who was in it was secret in those days.  Kind of like a secret society.  And it's 12 to, I think it's 12 to 15 seniors, those guys who were just all guys.  There's no women involved.  And they have an office in Old Main, they still do.  We have a room in Old Main.  It was 411 in those days.  And we each had a key to Old Main, and we could get in.  And what they would do is each year they would tap the next class, because the seniors would tap the next juniors to come in.  It was key student leaders across the campus.  It was formed, we just had our 110th anniversary this spring.  What happened, there was a strike on campus back in 1900 or somewhere around 1900, and a group of student leaders got together with the administration and the faculty, tried to solve the problems of the day.  
[00:38:36]
And once that got resolved, these student leaders thought, it'd be great if we just stuck together and kind of worked together to help improve life on the campus and solve problems for the university.  So they became what was known as Lion's Paw.  And because they were tightly with the administration and so forth, the administration gave them an office on Old Main and gave them a key to Old Main.  So, and that just continued.  And the way it worked was, there was, when your name was suggested as a member of Lion's Paw, to become a member of Lion's Paw, among the seniors, somebody would nominate you.  And there was a box you were given with, and inside the box there was a bunch of white balls and black balls.  And you picked out whichever you wanted.  It was all secret, nobody knew how you voted.  And you put either a white ball or a black ball into the container.  And to get into Lion's Paw, you had to have all white.  If I particularly didn't like you as a nominated person, for any reason, just because I didn't like the way you dressed or didn't like the way you wore your hair or you did something that, you know, it could be the most immature reason in the world or for no reason, if I blackballed you and everybody else had voted white balls, you didn't get in.  

[00:39:53]
>> No way.  

[00:39:54]
>> Yeah.  It was brutal.  So what happened, year before my election, Ted Thompson, who was African-American, was elected president.  It was a very brutal election between Ted Thompson and I can't forget who ran against him.  But whoever he ran against, maybe Aaron Arbitere [phonetic], there was a couple of, they were actually like political parties on campus in those days.  And the group that got elected, they elected their president, but the vice-president and treasurer for the other party got elected.  So it was a mixed election.  So, the guys that were supported the president, Ted Thompson, black balled the vice-president and treasurer from the other party from Lion's Paw.  So they weren't able to get in.  And they were just furious that they got black balled.  So they vowed that the next year they were going to make sure that whoever this party, this group put up for president, they were going to be, they were not going to be able to elect a successor as their vengeance to get back at them for being black balled.  
[00:41:03]
So, I had, was asked, well a friend of mine who was on the student senate with me, another political science major, was thinking about running for vice-president, and he said, would you help me in my campaign.  And I said sure.  I mean I didn't know any of these people or, I didn't know any of this history or anything that was going on.  I'm just, again, married student on campus.  And I get this phone call, probably within days or a week later, by I think it was either the president or treasurer, one of those two guys, and said, we're thinking about running somebody for president of Student Government.  We're looking for a candidate.  Would you be interested in interviewing with us to see whether or not we'd be, wanted to run you for president of Student Government.  I said, I don't care.  I'll come and meet with you.  So, I met in this apartment like on Beaver Avenue somewhere, one of those buildings down there.  I remember going in on a Sunday night about 8:00.  They drilled me for like two and a half hours about all these things.  
[00:42:04]
And they said fine, we're interviewing like half a dozen people.  We'll let you know.  So I just went there, and I just thought that was it.  I went back about my business.  About four or five days later I get this call saying, you know, we've met, we've decided that we want to support you for president of Student Government.  And I thought wow, you know, what's that mean?  I said I don't know anybody on campus, quite frankly.  And he said don't worry, we're going to run your campaign for you.  But it's going to require, you're going to have to agree, and that was one of the things he asked me if you are selected, we're going to have a campaign schedule for you to run.  And you're going to, and we want to know if you're picked would you agree to do what we ask you to do in terms of putting hours in it's going to take to get elected.  I said, I don't have any problem or anything.  I've worked hard all my life.  That's, now, running a tough campaign schedule is not going to be an issue.  And he said well, we're going to want you to get, have all your classes to kind of in the mornings if at all possible.  And because we want you to campaign all afternoon and evening every single night, you know, every day of the week.  
[00:43:08]
So they literally, these are all seniors, and they put together this campaign that was run.  I had never been involved in a political campaign before.  And it was run better than most campaigns that were run for mayors for the city or governors or whatever.  It was just absolutely incredible.  They literally had somebody who was in charge of each dorm, so East Halls had its own coordinator.  North Halls had a coordinator.  West Halls, South Halls.  There was a fraternity coordinator.  There was a sorority coordinator.  So they had these like chiefs all over the campus.  And then within each East Halls, every building in East Halls had a building coordinator.  So each of the buildings had a coordinator for a campaign.  And East Halls, North, South, West, South, everything.  And then within each, those buildings, then that person was responsible for trying to get a coordinator for each floor.  So we, that was like the precinct, the blocked precinct ward, you know, building and literally, we had somebody in virtually every building, every floor of every dorm on campus.  

[00:44:13]
>> That's crazy.  

[00:44:13]
>> I mean I ran against the most popular guy who was the IFC, headed homecoming that previous year.  He had a twin brother.  I mean everybody knew his name.  He was probably 100 times more known than me at the end of my term than I was, and he was the, at the beginning of the election, he was probably 100 times better known than me than I was after I finished my term as president.  I mean he was, everybody knew who Brinkley, was it Brinkley, it started with a B, Bob Brimley.  Everybody knew him.  And, you know, a couple other people that were well-known.  Like I said, I was this totally unknown character.  But we, he said, what they said to me was we want you, this is the term system, so we had a spring term, winter term, fall term, winter term, spring term.  So this was in the winter term.  And he said, and they selected a vice-president and a treasurer for me to run with.  They put three of us, I didn't know any of these other two guys.  So we were just kind of thrown together.  And they said, we want you to go out and start going dorm to dorm, going around the campus to different dorms and different sections and talking to kids and develop a campaign platform to run on.  
[00:45:25]
So I just went around started talking to kids.  What would you like to see Student Government do for you?  So we had this like 20, I don't know, 10, 15, 20-page list of, if we're elected, here's what we're going to do.  Things like, if you were a female and you had to walk from South Halls to the library, there was, all the paths you would normally take, most of them weren't lit.  They were just dark paths.  So girls was always scared to walk those paths.  And they were afraid of getting attacked or whatever.  So one of the things was we were going to get lighting, get, you know, would provide lighting for the paths.  There was no such thing as a student evaluation guide of the courses.  So, you know, we'd develop a student evaluation guide for courses.  There was no bookstore on campus.  There was no campus-owned bookstore, only the commercial bookstores downtown.  That we would, you know, we would have a student-run bookstore on campus.  It's hard to imagine now with the student bookstore that that didn't exist.  I mean --  

[00:46:22]
>> I was going to say, that's, when someone says bookstore, that's what I think of.  

[00:46:25]
>> Yeah, and there was, and what it was I found out was there was an agreement between the administration, and this goes back years and years and years, maybe back in the 20s and 30s, that the university would not do anything to compete with businesses in town.  That was, I don't think it was ever in writing, but it was an unwritten principle that we would not have a business that competed with your business.  Which is, and we were just taken advantage of by the bookstores in town.  We were just being ripped off.  So that was another issue.  It was evaluation guide, lights, bookstore.  Oh, I know, one of the other issues was, you know, that's pre-cellphones.  So if I'm in East Halls and I go to class somewhere around the library here, and it's like where liberal arts buildings are for example, and I forgot a book that I needed or a tablet or something, there was no way to get a hold of somebody back at the dorm to call and say, hey, when you come, can you bring me this.  
[00:47:26]
I'd have to walk back and get it myself.  Because there was no phones anywhere for you to use.  So something as simple as having a payphone or phone, not a payphone but just having a phone in each of the classroom buildings where you could call back to your dorm and, you know, if you had a message you wanted to leave to somebody.  So it was a whole list of really simple things like that, nothing crazy, that we said we would do.  And so we ran on this platform.  It just made sense to students.  There was like, so students loved it.  And so we were given a schedule then from, once the campaign season started, I had to start at noon, and I wasn't able to finish until, I couldn't quite until 11 at night.  And what we'd do between 10 and 11 or 9 and 1l, we'd literally hit on the men's floors, we would hit restrooms, and we'd hit any place there was any students congregating to say hey, we're running president of Student Government or whatever.  And they had people who would, I'd have a schedule.  Like I'd be in East Halls in this building from 12 to 2.  
[00:48:29]
Then I'd have to be in North Halls from 2 to 4 and West Halls from 4, and then they'd have us crisscrossing so that when I was in East Halls, the vice-president was in North Halls.  The treasurer maybe South Halls.  So we're always somewhere different campaigning.  And we also campaigned for, it was like vote for three of us or none of us.  We're running as a team.  We don't want you to just vote for me.  If you can't vote for all three of us, don't vote for any of us.  

[00:48:54]
>> That's so cool.  

[00:48:54]
>> So we ran as a really as a team.  And then what they would do is they had some people who would go out, and so if I'm supposed to be on this building and this time period, after that time period was over, they'd send somebody around that was, Candidate Antoniono here campaigning.  Did you see him in the last hour or two?  And if they found out that we weren't there, we'd get, I mean they'd just ream us out.  Okay, you were supposed to be here from 2 to 4.  We checked, and nobody saw you from 2 to 4.  Where was you at?  And one of the guys, I think the guy who ran for vice-president or treasurer, I can't remember which one, he would like, he would just find some place and crash for a couple of hours.  And we'd catch so much hell for it.  They had one guy who was a friend of mine, political science major, they told him, he was part of the group, and they said, find out how to do polls, because we want to poll and see where we stand in this campaign.  So before the winter term was out, he went to one of the political science professors and said, how can I learn to do a poll?  And he gave him some stuff to read.  So during the break between winter and spring term, he learned, essentially taught himself how to do polling.  
[00:49:57]
So they actually did polling of the campaign, before and during that election.  

[00:50:02]
>> That is so cool.  

[00:50:03]
>> And what they would do, so when we'd quit at 11 or 12:00 at night, we would meet back, and we'd do a debriefing.  So how'd the day go?  What happened?  Good, bad, indifferent.  And they would start beating us up about, you know, you guys aren't working hard enough.  You need to campaign harder.  You know, you've got to, da, da, da, da, and they'd just tear us to shreds.  And it was to the point where, and I think they were afraid if we thought we were doing well, we wouldn't work as hard.  And that works for some people.  Other people need, saying you're doing really well.  That encourages you to go out and work harder.  And I'm one of those kind of people.  And I was really just getting depressed because, you know, I was putting in as much time as I could.  And you know, I'm married and I had a, I didn't have a child at that point, was married.  And one of the guys that was running the campaign realized that what they were doing was having the reverse effect on me.  And I can remember after one of the meetings, it was after, well after midnight.  He said come with me.  He took me out in the hall, and we went for a walk.  And he said look, this is just between us, but we're doing polling, and you guys are in really good shape.  
[00:51:09]
You know, we don't think there's anybody close to you.  You're going to win.  It's not an issue.  You just need to keep working as hard as you can work, and everything is going to be fine.  They're just in there because they think if they tell you everything's okay you're going to quit working.  He said I know you're not going to do that.  And it's having an alternative effect on you.  And once I heard that, then I just worked harder because I knew things were going well.  And we did, our vote on election day, I think, if you go back and look, I think you can add up the other candidates' totals and, if we didn't exceed them, we came within a few numbers of exceeding the totals of everybody else put together.  

[00:51:45]
>> Wow.  

[00:51:45]
>> And it was like, like I said, it was the most awesome-run campaign I have.  I mean I'd go to the classroom in the morning, and it was like, we had posters all over the building that somebody put up during the night.  

[00:51:56]
>> That's so cool.  

[00:51:57]
>> And it was just, I think we kicked in a couple of hundred bucks, which was a lot of money in those days.  And, you know, to me I scraped it all together.  But I can remember there's, it was Skip Fast was the treasurer.  And Dave Schmidt was the vice-president.  There was a building in East Halls, and in those days, East Halls kind of stood out there, and there's nothing between the old creamery building and East Halls.  That was all like parking lots, and all the buildings that are there now didn't exist.  So you had this long view of East Halls before you ever got there.  You could see the first big dorm you come to on the corner there.  And they had, my name was on, a letter for each of the windows across the dorm on East Halls said Antoniono.  And below that had Schmidt and below that was Fast.  So three floors had Antoniono, Schmidt, Fast.  

[00:52:49]
>> That is so cool.  

[00:52:49]
>> So the kids in the second floor down below me, Schmidt, they had the S, it was S-C-H-M-I-D-T, and so they took the S and they took the C, so it was S-H-I, and they took the M out.  So Antoniono shit [phonetic] fast.  And I remember walking one day and said holy, I can't believe they have that like that.  But it created such a stir, we left it because it was like, it was a thought.  Everybody's talking about it.  

[00:53:13]
>> Yeah.  All publicity is good publicity.  

[00:53:14]
>> Yeah, exactly.  I didn't understand it at the time.  I know it now.  But yeah, I called up and said you know what they did?  He said that's fine, don't worry about it.  I think they might have did it on purpose quite frankly.  But so it was really, but here's the problem with it was that these guys, so we get, we swamp everybody.  So now I'm part of the Student Government.  So what do I do?  I mean running is one thing, doing it is a whole different ballgame.  I looked around me, and there's like nobody there, because these kids are running a campaign that were the masterminds, the geniuses to put this all together.  They were seniors.  They didn't care.  All they wanted to do, they had their victory.  They beat, they slaughtered the other side who they wanted to get revenge on.  They didn't care about me.  They didn't care about the campus.  They didn't care about what happened my year.  I'm looking around and said okay, who's helping me here.  And it's like, nobody, you know.  

[00:54:04]
>> Now what?  

[00:54:05]
>> And I was just, I had never been in a leadership position.  I just felt overwhelmed by it to the point where probably about a third of the way through my year when things were really getting tough and I was beat up.  The Collegiate hated me.  If you go back and read the Collegiate in those days, weekly, if not more often, there was a negative article about me in there.  They just beat me up nonstop.  And I just said, you know, I don't need this crap.  And Uptograph [phonetic], I think, I can't remember his first name.  He was like, not the dean of students, but he was, he had an office in Old Main, and he was like the student advisor for Student Government or something.  He had some administrative role, and I can't remember what his title was.  I remember calling up one evening, and I said, I just need to talk to you.  He said come on up to the house, so he gave me directions to get to his house.  I drove up.  I remember sitting in his living room and literally bawling to him.  And I said, I just want out.  I'm going to resign.  I can't take this anymore.  And he kind of talked me off the ledge, you know.  He said look, you're doing fine.  You know, just, you've got to tough it out.  
[00:55:06]
You know, this is the way politics is.  You know, you just have to learn to live with it.  And you're going to be okay.  And I'll never forget sitting there that evening talking to him.  And I thought oh man.  But you know, we accomplished almost everything that was on our list.  We started the first bookstore on campus.  It was where the aquarium is in the basement.  And I think those are ping pong, or whatever, in the basement hub to the left there, whatever that activities room in there.  What we did was, I remember going down, in fact, I've had dinner with Mimi Barash [phonetic] who had Barash Advertising at the time.  They were, had just started, and they were in their first new building.  And I went to see her, and I said, I want to start a bookstore.  She gave me the name of some guy who did wholesale books.  And I went to him, and I got some paperback books on consignment.  And we put, we got a little space in the student union building, we put them in there, and we started letting kids sell their books, you know.  
[00:56:07]
So you could bring all your textbooks in, they'd put a little slip with your name and how much you wanted for it, and then we would sell them.  And then you'd get back whatever you, you know, asked for if somebody bought it.  And that was the extensions of the first start of the first bookstore on campus.  So we did that.  I went to a professor in the college of business who did work with computers.  And I said, can you give us a graduate student.  We like as a project for their master's degree or PhD or whatever, put together a student, put together a course evaluation guide for us so we could, that we could do.  And by the time, it was either the second or third term of my presidency, we literally had a student evaluation guide for most of the courses on campus where students who took that course rated a professor, what they liked, didn't like about them.  We had an evaluation criteria, four or five different things, and you could just write a comment.  
[00:57:08]
And we passed that out to students as, so they could, you know, see that this professor is really a piece of crap, and this one is really good.  And those kinds of things.  That got done.  I can remember going to the university and saying look, we need some money to put lights on these paths for, and they gave me this song and dance, there's no money in the budget for that, da, da, da.  And I said, so I go back to the other officers and the student government and I said look, here's the response from administration.  I think we could raise, we've got what, 20,000 students on campus.  We had a ballpark figure of what it cost to light the major, we had kind of a map put together of the paths we wanted lit.  And somehow we got a price of what we thought it would cost.  And I said, you know, if we just got three or four or five dollars from every student's parents, just some minimal amount of money that they would send us, we'd have enough money that we could buy the lights ourselves and have them put up.  So, I have another meeting scheduled, another meeting with whoever it was I was supposed to meet and part of the administration.  
[00:58:10]
I said you know what, we've got a solution.  You don't have the money, we'll raise the money ourselves.  We're going to send out this letter to all the students' parents and tell them that, you know, the pathways the students have to walk at night to go to the library we've got in place aren't safe, and so if you can send us whatever you can send us, at least a minimum of X number of dollars, we can raise enough money to put lights on.  You can't do that.  You can't do that.  Sure we can.  We have a list of all the students and the places, and we'll just send out the letter, you know.  No, no, just let's take another look at this, you know.  So by the end of that year, we had at least some of the paths, they started to light some of the paths.  Now they're all pretty much lit.  So you can walk anywhere.  

[00:58:50]
>> Yeah, I was going to say, I don't think there's any --  

[00:58:51]
>> Yeah, none of those lights existed when I ran.  So we pretty much accomplished everything that was on that list.  I felt pretty good about how that worked out.  

[00:58:59]
>> Good for you guys.  That was.  

[00:59:00]
>> So, it was a fun experience.  I remember they tried to form some other student government and get rid of this one.  And they had a meeting in Schwab, and I remember going to it.  And the leaders of that movement and I just kind of sat there listening for a while.  And then so I eventually after then, he said, do you have anything to say.  And I said, I went up and I took the microphone, and once I got the microphone, I wouldn't give it back.  I just took over the meeting.  And by the time I was done, I knew which questions to prod and get those groups, everybody fighting with each other.  And it disappeared [inaudible].  The other thing I'm really proud about my year is that we had, I'm not sure what the name of the group was, but there was a gay rights group on campus that supported people who were gay.  And they were an actually official student group, so we, you know, your student activities, a fund was passed out to different student groups.  And I got wind that they were going to not, they were going to kind of kick them off campus, and they weren't going to get a share of the student activities' fund.  
[01:00:06]
And I was furious.  And I remember going to the dean of students and said look, you do that, I'll shut this school down.  You're not doing that in my year.  They are a legitimate student union, and they deserve to be here as much as anybody else.  And you're absolutely not doing that to the gay rights group.  And they backed off.  But I think the next year, within a year or two, they shut them down for a while.  They were off campus for a period.  They're back, obviously, now, they're back at some point.  I was able to prevent that from happening my year.  So, it was, you know, as it ended up, that was probably one of the best experiences.  I mean I learned more there than I would have learned in any classroom setting, you know.  It's served me well throughout my life of, you know, getting beat up on taking on, not being afraid to take on difficult situations in which, you know, everybody's not going to like what you're doing and getting beat up over it.  And I have very tough skin and tough back now as a result of getting stabbed in the back so many times.  You know, you get leathered.  
[01:01:08]
And so it's, yeah, that was, you know, the people that came here as freshmen with the goal of being by the time they were seniors they were going to be president of Student Government, and everything they did was to get angled to that position.  You know, I came here, I was always an active student even in high school when I made Cs and Ds, I was still active in things.  I was always a socially active person and in groups.  And if I was in a group, I was usually president or some responsible position in the group.  So that wasn't unusual.  But you know, and I never done a wellness goal.  I mean my [inaudible] days, I almost flunked out.  High school was bad grades.  So I'd never had a history of getting good grades.  And I come here, and I'm starting to get good grades for the first time in my life.  And I thought, other than the war, which really meant a lot to me, I'm just going to hunker down.  I'm married.  I don't, you know, I'm not going to go and get involved in a lot of activities.  I'm going to come here and get really good grades.  Graduate and get on with life, and you know, I just can't get sucked into things.  
[01:02:10]
I can't not say and not get involved is like being a little bit pregnant.  You either are or you're not.  And I just, but you know, thank goodness I did, because, you know, and Lion's Paw, for example, is the group that, our group my senior year, Lion's Paw was the best friends I had on campus, had on campus.  And I have to this day, we're all still tight and close.  You know, I was, in addition to my practice of law, I own a part interest in an investment company, four of us that own it, it's done very, very well.  It's allowed me to contribute substantial dollars back to Penn State.  And when the three of us, four of us started talking about what to do to form this company, we had an idea, but we didn't have any clue how to do it.  And one of my best friends from Lion's Paw was a lawyer in Atlanta who handled real estate law.  We were going to try to figure out a way of buying and renting buildings, flipping them, doing whatever.  This was back in, I'd say late 80s, early 90s, somewhere around there.  
[01:03:10]
So, we didn't have any way, so we got together one night, and I said look, you know, my friend down in Atlanta is a lawyer.  He does commercial real estate.  Why don't I call him?  We'll put him on the speaker phone and ask him how, what we should do.  And he kind of gave us a blueprint on how to set up this company and how to get it going.  He spent about an hour with us on the phone just because we were friends.  And we kind of followed that blueprint and have made a lot of money that's allowed me to, you know, pledge a million dollars back to the university, and that wouldn't have happened, you know, but for my contacts through Lion's Paw.  

[01:03:44]
>> Good for you.  

[01:03:44]
>> Yeah, so it really, yeah, it's, the Penn State and that experience just changed my, you know, it really has changed my life quite frankly, you know.  So, and I have not, had not got elected to Student Government, I wouldn't be in Lion's Paw.  It's like all these little things that just kind of happen.  

[01:04:01]
>> It's like connect the dots kind of.  

[01:04:03]
>> Yeah.  It's just, just been so, so fortunate, and the contacts and the friends I've made over the years.  

[01:04:11]
>> That's great.  

[01:04:12]
>> Yeah, so it's, you know, like I said, I didn't come here to do any of this stuff.  It just like the pieces kind of fell into place.  And sometimes, you know, if you just don't plan to do things, but just let them happen, you're actually better off than when you're trying to figure out a way connive to get into, you know, some position.  

[01:04:33]
>> Yeah.  I'm a very firm believer in just letting things go with the flow and see where life takes you.  Not you trying to take life somewhere.  

[01:04:43]
>> Yeah, and I, you know, I come up here twice a year to meet with students who are interested in going to law school.  We meet at the, what's the building over by the parking lot, the parking garage, the career services building.  

[01:04:56]
>> Okay.  

[01:04:56]
>> We meet there and go usually from nine to noon.  And every 40 minutes or 35, 40 minutes they have a new student come in.  And I have resumes of all the students who signed up to talk to me.  And it's, that's my two favorite days of the year, the two days I come up here and do that.  I love meeting with the students.  They're just all so much fun to talk to.  And they're all so interesting, and they have great questions.  And you know, I tell them, you know, life's full of choices.  And you never know when you have these choices which road is the right road to take.  There's no way of knowing that.  You know, you kind of have to go with your gut or go with what you think you want to do.  And you'll never know whether it's the right road or not because you can't go back and undo it and then go back the other road and see how that takes you.  So you're always going to have, you're always going to wonder whether or not you took the right road.  But sometimes you just have to go with your gut and do what you think is the right thing at the time.  And you've got to be ever ready and able to roll with the punches, because you never know, you think you're going down a road because you're going from point A to point C down here.  
[01:06:06]
And you start down a road and all of, something happening, you end up going this direction and you go back, you know, some other direction, that comes out of the blue.  That you don't even know it was something that was a possibility two weeks before or whatever.  And so, you know, that's just, that's part of life.  And you just have to be willing to do it, and you never know, you know, where it's going to lead you.  So, and taking in, and students are concerned about taking time off, for example, you know, should you take time off or not take time off.  And if I, you know, if I don't go to law school right away and I graduated, is that a problem?  I tell them, you know, you're much better off actually taking some time off and getting some experiences and then going back to law school.  It's not a big deal.  It's nothing magic about going straight from, you know, high school to college to law school.  You know, I took all this time off.  And you're just older when you start, that's all.  I worked during the day and went to law school at nights and had a family, had kids to support.  
[01:07:06]
No clients asked me what grade I got in law school or where I finished in my class, you know, or what law school I went to.  They don't know whether I went to Harvard or Podumpke [phonetic], you know.  All they know is do they like me or not.  Do they like my personality?  Am I somebody they feel comfortable discussing their problems with?  That's all they care about, you know.  And you're, you know, they don't even know if I'm competent, quite frankly, when they walk in.  They don't have a clue what they should be looking for or asking competency.  But, you know, they have to feel comfortable with you as a person.  So, it's, yeah, it's interesting.  

[01:07:45]
>> Yeah.  So do you have any suggestions or any advice you would offer Penn State students today?  

[01:07:52]
>> Well, I can tell you what I wrote in, we had a handbook that we used to hand out to freshmen when they first came here for orientation.  And as president, I got to write kind of an opening page at the very beginning of the book.  And I remember writing something to the effect that you can come here, sit in your class, sit in your dorm, excuse me, and make straight As, and leave here after four years on the dean's list and top of your class.  But you will not had a really true college experience if that's all you do, and you will not be a whole person.  You need to come here.  And if it means making Bs instead of As, it's worth every second of it and get involved in whatever your passion is.  And become part of the student community.  Do things, make friends, expand your horizons and leave here as, even as a B minus, C plus student, but leave here having done a bunch of things.  And you'll be, you know, you'll have a much broader life going forward than if you just become a hermit and make straight As.  
[01:08:58]
That's not what campus is all about.  In that, this campus, as big as it is, is really a small campus.  It's as big as you want to make it or as small as you want to make it.  The difference in Penn State versus a small school is that nobody's going to come and hold your hand and encourage you to do things.  You know, it's up to you.  If you want to go see a professor and need extra help, they'll give it to you.  And most part, 80, 90, 95% of professors will help anybody that walks in their door to help them.  But if you want to cut classes and not do anything, nobody's going to come knocking on your door saying, hey, you missed class.  

[01:09:34]
>> Yeah.  

[01:09:34]
>> So the burden's on you to take advantage of what's out there and don't expect to have somebody come hold your hand to do it.  And I remember Wells Ketty [phonetic] who was a professor for the SDS, the radical group, he was a labor law professor, sent me a note when he read it, and he said, thank you for what you wrote in the student handbook.  I wish more people had your, you know, perspective of what campus life is like.  So, you know.  

[01:10:05]
>> I like that.  That's like kind of what my dad says.  He always says like Penn State was the best time of his life.  And he flies for Jet Blue.  

[01:10:15]
>> Okay.  

[01:10:15]
>> And he always says you can get straight Ds and be an airline pilot.  And like have lived your life to the fullest.  So.  

[01:10:23]
>> My son's an airline pilot actually.  He flies for Southwest.  

[01:10:25]
>> Okay.  

[01:10:26]
>> Yeah, so, yeah, it's, to me, it's, I went to a small school for that year, first year after high school, and I hated it.  I went to what in my day was a big high school.  It was 400 and some kids in my, 423 or something like that, in my graduating class.  Which was huge in those days.  And then went into a small college.  And I just couldn't stand the, I just felt so confined in a small school.  I love, when I came here it was like ah, it was like a breath of fresh air.  And it was amazing how just walking, there's kids that I would recognize because I had seen them going back and forth to class.  I had no idea who their names were.  But they were familiar faces, you know, that I would either meet in class or just see them in passing.  You know, I'd seen them last semester, see them this semester.  It just felt good, you know, being here.  So it was pretty great.  

[01:11:22]
>> It's like a big family.  

[01:11:23]
>> It is.  

[01:11:23]
>> I like that.  

[01:11:24]
>> It really, really is.  

[01:11:26]
>> All right, so I think that's it.  

[00:00:01]

>> Where were you living in 1968?  

[00:00:05]
>> In 1968 I was living in Philadelphia.  

[00:00:08]
>> Okay.  

[00:00:10]
>> Pennsylvania, not Philadelphia, Mississippi.  

[00:00:12]
>> And then were you in school at the time?  

[00:00:17]
>> I'm sorry, what was that question?  

[00:00:19]
>> Were you in school at the time?  

[00:00:22]
>> Yes, I was in medical school at the time.  I was a freshman in medical school in 1968.  

[00:00:28]
>> And what medical school did you go to?  

[00:00:31]
>> I went to Jefferson, at that time I was in Jefferson Medical College; now it's known as Jefferson Medical College of Thomas Jefferson University, but it was in downtown Philadelphia.  

[00:00:42]
>> Okay.  And then why did you choose that university for your education?  

[00:00:49]
>> Well, I guess I had always; I was always going to be a doctor.  I don't know how much of the decision was mine and how much it was encouraged by my parents, but when I was applying to college after I graduated high school, there were a number of programs in the country at that time that combined medical school and college, and so I applied for a number of them and I got into the one at Penn State which was cooperative between Penn State and Jefferson and was a five-year program so that I was able to do college and medical school in a total of five years.  

[00:01:28]
>> Oh, gee.  

[00:01:29]
>> Yeah, and especially considering I was 16 when I graduated high school.  

[00:01:35]
>> Oh.  

[00:01:35]
>> So, yeah I was pretty young.  And, so what you did was you went to Penn State for a full year, in other words, so I graduated high school in June of 1966 and I went to Penn State shortly after that went to the summer semester.  At that time, they were on a quarter basis, quarter; the school ran on a quarterly basis.  You had three quarters in an academic year.  But I went for the summer quarter, then the fall, winter and spring quarters then the subsequent summer quarter and then started medical school in the fall of 1967, and still had two more quarters to do at Penn State.  

[00:02:16]
>> Okay.  

[00:02:16]
>> So, that's how that worked.  So, I graduated medical school in 1971.  So, in January of 1968 I was halfway through my freshman year, and by the end of 1968 I was halfway through my sophomore year at medical school in Philadelphia.  

[00:02:31]
>> Okay.  

[00:02:31]
>> Sorry if that was a little longwinded.  

[00:02:35]
>> So, your major; so, you, were you accepted as a premed major or?  

[00:02:41]
>> Yes.  Yes.  So, the special kind of premed category, it was sort of understood that if we kept certain grades; one of the advantages of the program.  At that time, it was a little tough to get into medical school.  There were a lot of applicants and not everybody got in.  So, one of the advantages of a program like this was that if you kept your grades up you were guaranteed admission to medical school.  

[00:03:03]
>> Okay.  

[00:03:03]
>> You know, as long as you maintained a certain grade point average, that which [inaudible] wasn't that hard to do and so if you did that you guaranteed acceptance in the medical school, because at that time not everybody that applied in the medical school got in, or I don't know if that's the way it now, but that's what it was then.  It was tough to get in.  

[00:03:24]
>> Yeah, that's how it's.  

[00:03:25]
>> There weren't as many medical schools.  There weren't as many medical schools back then as there are now.  

[00:03:30]
>> Oh, okay.  Were you working at the time?  

[00:03:34]
>> No, I was a fulltime student.  I did not work.  I did not have a part-time job.  

[00:03:40]
>> Okay.  

[00:03:40]
>> Medical school was a lot less expensive even relatively back then than it is now.  

[00:03:46]
>> Oh.  

[00:03:46]
>> Tuition; tuition went from 1500 dollars a year to 2400 dollars a year the four years I was in medical school.  

[00:03:55]
>> Oh, wow.  Oh, my gosh.  

[00:03:57]
>> Yes.  Penn State was a 150 dollars a quarter for tuition.  Room and board was more expensive, tuition was like 275 a quarter.  So, basically each quarter was 425.  

[00:04:11]
>> Okay.  That's pretty nice.  What kind of music did you like in 1968 or?  

[00:04:22]
>> In 1968, I liked rock.  

[00:04:25]
>> Okay.  

[00:04:25]
>> So, that was the year that the Sgt. Pepper album came out and I remember that.  I remember when Sgt. Pepper came out.  When it came out we all went down to the store and, of course, we all listened; the only thing you had to listen on then was vinyl unless you had a fancy tape recorder and you put the stuff on tape, but yeah so we all ran down and got Sgt. Pepper when it came out, but I like rock.  So, that's what I liked.  I liked the Beatles.  I liked the Rolling Stones.  I liked the Loving Spoonful.  I remember the first time I heard the song "Cowgirl in the Sand" by Neil Young "Crazy Horse" and my god I still love that song.  You should listen to it sometime if you've never heard it.  It's got some of the most unbelievable guitar riffs you'll ever hear.  

[00:05:13]
>> Yeah, I've never heard of it.  I'll make a note and listen to it.  

[00:05:17]
>> "Cowgirl in the Sand", unbelievable.  It's about 10 minutes long.  It will blow your mind.  

[00:05:22]
>> Okay.  And how about TV shows or movies?  

[00:05:27]
>> TV shows and movies, let me see.  Can I remember specifically 1968 for movies?  Of course, you know, back then you had to see movies in the movie theater.  Stuff didn't show up on television until much later and a lot of the movies wouldn't show up on TV and, of course, there were no; there was no way to watch it otherwise because there were no VCRs or DVD players, if you don't know what a VCR was.  But, a patent came out in 69 I think, MASH.  Oh, I loved MASH when that came out.  That was long before the, long before the TV show came out.  MASH was great.  You know, it's hard to remember the movies exactly for the year 1968, because they all sort of blend together.  

[00:06:14]
>> Yeah.  

[00:06:15]
>> But, but yeah we used to go to the movies a lot [high-pitch sound].  

[00:06:22]
>> And then what were your hobbies?  

[00:06:25]
>> My hobbies?  

[00:06:26]
>> Yeah.  

[00:06:27]
>> When I was in medical school I don't think I really had a lot of time for hobbies.  I used to read a lot.  I've always read a lot.  I read about a lot of different things, but for subjects now I listen to a lot of podcasts actually.  

[00:06:41]
>> Oh, okay.  

[00:06:42]
>> But, obviously that wasn't available back then, but I just read a lot.  So, but I didn't really have hobbies at that time.  When I was in high school, I liked model railroading and I liked playing board war games.  In fact, I still play board war games.  I've been playing them since I was 10 years old [high-pitch sound].  So, I guess those were my hobbies.  

[00:07:07]
>> Okay.  And then where did you get or obtain your news?  

[00:07:15]
>> News?  Okay, in those days there were only three ways to get the news.  You could listen to the radio.  At that time, the; that's when KYW sometime around there was when KYW started their, their 24-hour, it was KYW 24-Hour News all the time, something like that.  But, there was the radio.  There was, there were newspapers and magazines and there were a lot more newspapers back then and newspapers were much thicker, a lot of advertising in them, and then there was TV news, but we only had three channels.  So, you either listened to NBC, ABC, or CBS and CBS had Walter Cronkite and NBC had Huntley and Brinkley, and the evening news was an hour long then.  And a lot of, and oh there was PBS also; PBS also had WHYY in Philadelphia.  There had a news hour.  But we tended to watch, I know I watched Huntley-Brinkley a lot.  I think I tended to watch NBC more than CBS.  
[00:08:16]
ABC also had a news, but ABC was not as big a station then.  NBC and CBS were bigger than ABC and they had a bigger presence, and certainly Huntley and Brinkley and Walter Cronkite had a much bigger impact than the ABC people did.  

[00:08:36]
>> Okay.  

[00:08:38]
>> But we used to watch; we used to watch the news every evening.  

[00:08:41]
>> Oh.  

[00:08:41]
>> You know, I lived in a fraternity house when I went to medical school and bunch of us, you know, there were a couple TVs in the fraternity house and we'd just sit down and we would watch the news every night [bell ring].  

[00:08:52]
>> Okay.  So, there was like so much happening in the last 1960s, like the first moon photos, or like all the student protests, and the election in 68; what were your like particular interests at that the time?  

[00:09:14]
>> Well, I was always interested in politics.  I read a bunch of different magazines.  At that time, I tended to be on the conservative side; I've changed my political views drastically over the years, but at that time, I tended to be more conservative even though I was only 18.  And so, I was always interested in politics, current events.  There actually weren't as many things to, to distract us from stuff like that like there is now.  

[00:09:47]
>> Uh-huh.  

[00:09:48]
>> I guess since if you, you know, I think that; I think the people have more things now to distract them from what's going on in the world than we did then.  You know, now I guess you can get on all forms of social media or the Internet, or all that kind of stuff and you can just take yourself away from what's happening in the world.  It was much harder to get away from it, and the late 60s there was a lot of political activity going on more even than now.  I think it was a little bit more focused back then.  

[00:10:24]
>> Yeah.  Did you ever take?  

[00:10:28]
>> But.  

[00:10:28]
>> In any protests?  

[00:10:29]
>> I'm sorry.  

[00:10:30]
>> Did you ever take?  

[00:10:31]
>> Did I ever what?  

[00:10:32]
>> Ever take part.  

[00:10:33]
>> In protests?  

[00:10:35]
>> Yeah.  

[00:10:35]
>> I did not then.  Later in the time that I was in medical school when I was a junior and a senior, I got involved in a group called the Jewish Defense League and I went, and we were at that time we were protesting mainly for the cause of Soviet Jewry.  At that time, the Jews could not get out of the Soviet Union and they were persecuted in the Soviet Union, and so we used to demonstrate.  We had marches and my brother; my younger brother got arrested when they had a sit-in on a Russian freighter that was in the Port of Philadelphia.  That was in the mid70s.  But we led a lot of protest marches to try to get the, to bring attention to the cause of Soviet Jewry.  So, that's what I got involved in in the, around 1971 just right before I graduated medical school.  

[00:11:31]
>> Okay.  Were you ever like worried that anything was going to go on your record or prohibit you from getting a job or anything?  

[00:11:40]
>> I was never worried about getting a job as a doctor.  I just assumed if I had a; if I had an MD that I'd always be able to find a job.  You can always, everybody can always use a doctor somewhere, somewhere.  No.  So, I was never worried about that and it's sort of funny, because I enlisted in the Navy when I was in medical school but I didn't actually take any pay and so I went into the service which was after, after my internship, but so I guess I don't know if I had gotten arrested if that would had affected that or not, but when I was in those protests I was actually a reserve officer in the Navy, but.  

[00:12:20]
>> Oh.  

[00:12:20]
>> I wasn't on active duty, so.  No, I never worried; I did not worry about that stuff, no.  But then I was never really involved in anything I think that would have necessarily kept me from getting a, you know, I mean I was never, I was never going to work for the CIA or.  

[00:12:34]
>> Yeah.  

[00:12:34]
>> The, you know, the FBI or anything like that.  You know, other than being in the service and, of course, at that time, they would do anything to get you into the service.  They weren't going to try to keep you out of the service, so.  

[00:12:47]
>> Right.  So, what were like your motivations for like liking politics and like being really interested in like reading about them and current events and stuff?  

[00:13:00]
>> Well, a couple of things.  My family was a very political family.  They always talked about politics at home.  Those were my parents.  And so, we always had political discussions at home and a lot of their friends were very politically involved.  So, whenever their friends came over there were always political discussions.  So, there was always political stuff going on.  

[00:13:21]
>> Uh-huh.  

[00:13:22]
>> And, you know, we always got; we always got the daily newspaper.  I think my parents always got the Evening Bulletin which was a paper that no longer exists in Philadelphia, but that was the evening paper, so my parents preferred the evening paper because then they would have it when they got home.  There was also the Philadelphia Enquirer, but that was a morning paper.  

[00:13:39]
>> Oh.  

[00:13:39]
>> So, my parents preferred to have the evening paper.  So, there were; there were actually three major papers in Philadelphia at that time.  But, so I came from a politically aware family.  They were involved in a few critical things and that, and the rest of it was just, I guess I've always been a very curious person.  I've always, actually I've always felt that the most important thing you can be is curious, just want to read about things and learn about things.  I think that's the biggest gift you can give yourself, it's the biggest gift you can give your children is the, that they be curious about stuff and go out on their own and learn things.  

[00:14:20]
>> And that like really ties in to like what we were learning in class, because like they were talking about how in 68 and just like the 60s and stuff, how kids were just becoming very curious and like wanted to stray away from like the common stream of things.  

[00:14:39]
>> Yes.  Although, I was more traditional so I really didn't stray.  

[00:14:44]
>> Uh-huh.  

[00:14:44]
>> But, yes.  Yes, absolutely that was the case.  

[00:14:49]
>> And then.  

[00:14:49]
>> I mean, when I was at Penn State even though I was only a Penn; even though I was on the main campus for a total of a year and-a-half, there was a lot of political activity.  There was a chapter of the; there was a chapter of the SDS which was a pretty leftwing organization-type.  The head of it was somebody I had graduated high school with and, so yeah, yeah students were very politically involved.  There were a lot marches and stuff like that.  

[00:15:16]
>> Yeah.  And then, how do you remember 1968?  

[00:15:22]
>> You know, I remember a lot of political stuff, but at the time, I was also a freshman in medical school and then a sophomore in a medical school and there was really, there was a lot of studying involved at that time.  There was.  

[00:15:33]
>> Yeah.  

[00:15:34]
>> It was fine, it was a lot of work.  A tremendous amount of memorization and so a lot of what I did was focused on, you know, doing well on medical school.  I mean, that was the primary goal, but I do remember, I mean, obviously my god the assassination how could not remember that kind of stuff.  You were always aware of what was going on with the Space Program; that was the year before we landed on the moon, but you still had, you know, the Gemini missions and then later the, the early Apollo mission and then, of course, the Presidential Conventions [inaudible].  Before that, there was the McCarthy Campaign and then Johnson announcing that he was not, that he was not going to run for president which was just unprecedented, you know, a sitting president who was going to run for president to then suddenly announce that he was not running for president; that was unheard of.  That had, you know, I mean now granted I was only 18, so-- so my political memory was not that great., but I mean it was just unheard of and then, of course, there the conventions in the summer; first the Democratic Convention in Chicago and then the Republican Convention was in Miami.  
[00:16:54]
I think the Republican Convention was second, but what I; one of the things I remember and it's funny because I saw a documentary about that, was during the Republican Convention they had analysis and commentary every night between William F. Buckley who was the spokesman for the conservative side and then Walker who was pretty notorious named Gore Vidal and these discussions got really vituperative to the point where they were practically yelling at each other.  And, and there was, I saw a documentary about it recently which brought back a lot of memories of watching that, but yeah I remember those; I remember those conventions and; they had brought, you know, people would drop everything to watch the conventions and there was wall, at that time they would have wall-to-wall coverage of the conventions.  They were huge events particularly in 68.  

[00:17:53]
>> Okay.  

[00:17:53]
>> Did that answer your question?  

[00:17:56]
>> Yeah, yeah.  And then.  

[00:17:58]
>> I tend to stray a little bit.  

[00:18:02]
>> And then, how did you end up joining the Navy?  

[00:18:07]
>> Oh, well what happened was I had a low draft number, the draft numbers had come out and I had a low draft number, so new I was going to get drafted, but I knew I would not get drafted.  I was, I had deferment while I was in medical school, because medical school was a draft deferment, but I knew I would have to go into the service eventually because in 1968 you did not see the draft end.  The draft ended in 1973, but nobody in 1968 could foresee that happening.  So, or 69 I guess it was when I enlisted in the Navy, but so I knew I was going to end up having to go into the service and so they had this program where you could enlist in a branch of the services while you were in medical school and then when you were finished with medical school and your internship, when you went into the service you knew which branch you would go into and I didn't want to go into the Air Force, because I figured they might send me to a place like Grand Forks, North Dakota and I eventually met someone who was stationed at Grand Forks, North Dakota and I was glad I was never there.  And I didn't want to go into the Army, because I figured they'd send me to some remote-based, you know, I wasn't even concerned about whether it was going to be Vietnam or not because all branches of service, you know, were in Vietnam.  
[00:19:19]
But with the Army, it was more that they would send me to some remote army base in god knows where and I looked at the Navy and I said, "Okay, the Navy.  They've got ships."  They have to be in ports.  Ports are usually in big cities, so that's what I like.  I grew up in the city.  I was a city boy.  I wasn't a country boy, and so I said so I'll join the Navy.  And little did I know, that when I eventually did go into the Navy, they assigned me to the Marine Corp. I didn't know the Marines didn't have their own doctors.  They use the Navy doctors.  So, they sent me to the Marines and I had to spend a year with the marines before I spent a year in a Navy base, so I got sent to Okinawa and the only reason I was sent to Okinawa was by that time the Marines were no longer in Vietnam so they sent me to Okinawa instead, so I got to spend a year there which in retrospect was a good experience for me, but I wasn't thrilled with it at the time.  

[00:20:06]
>> Oh.  

[00:20:06]
>> Or the idea that I had be with a bunch of Marines as opposed to being in a port taking, you know, in [inaudible] you know, a port in nice big city, instead I was on this island in the Pacific.  

[00:20:19]
>> So, you were like a doctor in the Navy?  

[00:20:22]
>> Yes I was.  

[00:20:23]
>> Okay.  Did you start your?  

[00:20:26]
>> Which was actually a pretty good; that was a pretty gig actually.  It was, they treat you well because they have a real class system in the service; you've officers and you've got enlisted men.  If you're an officer you're great and if you're an enlisted man it's not so great.  So, I was an officer.  So, that was good.  

[00:20:45]
>> And so, did you start your career as a doctor in the Navy?  

[00:20:51]
>> No.  Well, depends on how you put it.  I graduated medical school in 1971 and then you have to do a year of internship before you're actually, before you can get licensed as a physician.  

[00:21:04]
>> Okay.  

[00:21:05]
>> So, did my internship.  I went down to Delaware for that and after my internship I went into the service and so I guess you could say, yes I started my career as a physician in the service and then after two years of active duty in the service, I got out and then I did my residency and then my fellowship and then I moved to Redding to practice in 1978, so that was when I really started practicing, but my initial work as a physician was, yes in the service.  

[00:21:35]
>> And do you think that like in any way shaped the way you like care for patients at all?  

[00:21:44]
>> I don't know.  I don't know if that being in the service affected the way I look at patients.  I mean, I can't say that it did.  I think the way I look at patients is conditioned by far more, many more things than that.  The people I learned under a medical school with the people I had a practice with over the years, you know, the values your family gives you when you're growing up, you know, your own personal outlook on life.  I think all of those things had much more to do with how I look at patients and how I feel with the responsibility of my profession and the requirements of my profession and what I am supposed to do as a doctor.  I think that had a lot more to do with the kind of doctor I became than to the two years I was in the service.  

[00:22:33]
>> Uh-hum.  And then what years were in the service for?  

[00:22:37]
>> Nineteen, June; July of 1972 to June of 1974.  

[00:22:44]
>> Okay.  

[00:22:44]
>> So, I was, I was 22 when I finished my internship and went into the service and I think that made me the youngest doctor in the military.  

[00:22:57]
>> Oh.  

[00:22:57]
>> In fact, I think I might have been; I think when I graduated medical school because I was born in March, so I was 21 years and 3 months old when I got my, when I graduated medical school and I think I might have been youngest officer in the country at that time, but I did not make the cover of Time magazine.  Nobody was; nobody wrote any articles about it.  Probably nowadays, nowadays that might have become a, that might have become a Twitter feed or something like that, but.  

[00:23:27]
>> That's great.  

[00:23:29]
>> Not, not 60 years ago was this news to them.  

[00:23:32]
>> Were mostly like the other people that you served with were they a lot older than you?  

[00:23:39]
>> The enlisted men that were, were in the service with me that worked with me, because you know, I had to, you know, we had corpsman, we had Navy corpsman and they were enlisted.  The other physicians that I was with were by and large 5 to 6 years older than me.  The Navy corpsman some of them were a lot older than me.  The senior NCOs and stuff like that, but the younger corpsman were about my age, maybe a couple of them were a little younger but they were around my age.  

[00:24:11]
>> Oh, okay.  

[00:24:11]
>> You know, in 1968 even though, you know, they couldn't vote, because the voting age was 21 at that time and the first, the first major election where an 18-year-old could vote was 1972.  

[00:24:25]
>> Oh, I did not know that, oh.  

[00:24:27]
>> Yes.  Yes.  So, at that time, in fact that was one of the arguments about lowering the age was they could send to Vietnam to fight, but we didn't have the right to vote.  

[00:24:36]
>> Right.  

[00:24:37]
>> But the draft, but you can get drafted but you couldn't vote.  

[00:24:41]
>> Okay.  That's crazy.  

[00:24:45]
>> Now, it's; and also, you could get drafted but you couldn't drink.  Well, actually you could drink in New York, because New York's drinking age was 18, but Pennsylvania was 21.  

[00:24:58]
>> Oh.  Oh.  And then were a lot of your friends drafted or did they have to like join the [multiple speakers]?  

[00:25:04]
>> Well, at that time most of my friends were all mainly medical school people.  And so, they were, if they, they had deferments until they were done with medical school.  I did know a couple of guys in college that got drafted; college was a deferment, but there were a couple of guys that flunked out the year I was up at Penn State; couldn't keep a GPA of 2 or more and they had to, they flunked out of college and they got drafted.  

[00:25:36]
>> Oh.  So, if, so if you were in college that was like a reason that you?  

[00:25:41]
>> College was, yes college, college was a deferment.  

[00:25:45]
>> Okay.  

[00:25:47]
>> And medical school was a deferment, okay.  Some graduate schools were deferments, some were not.  If you didn't have a graduate school deferment when you graduated college, then they could draft you after your, after you finish college.  

[00:26:05]
>> Okay.  

[00:26:05]
>> And people who had a college degree if they were drafted, they usually became officers.  People who did not have a college degree were drafted and became enlisted then.  

[00:26:22]
>> Do you think if you wouldn't have been like, like say if you were in med school now, would you have chosen at all to like voluntarily go into the service?  

[00:26:33]
>> Nowadays?  

[00:26:35]
>> Yeah.  

[00:26:35]
>> I probably wouldn't.  No.  I would probably not have joined the military.  Nowadays if I was in medical school with no threat of a draft, would have gone into the armed forces afterwards?  I don't know that I would have, but I have to say back then, it's interesting, I could have gotten out of going into the service even though I committed myself to go into the service when I was in medical school, because after I finished my intern; when I was finishing my internship and I went, I had to go for an Entrance Examination to make sure I was physically qualified to go into the service, and the guy who the doctor who giving me my exam was the guy I knew from medical school who was doing his reserve duty at the Examination Center and I had had a weird disease when I started my internship called Guillain-Barre syndrome which I actually fortunately had a mild case and I completely recovered from it.  But when I told them I had Guillain-Barre, you know, several months before even though I completely recovered, he says, "Phil if you want to I'll make you a 4-F", 4-F meant not medically qualified to serve in any capacity.  
[00:27:45]
He says, "I'll make you a 4-F right now and you will never have to serve a day in the armed forces and you can go and do your residency now instead of waiting until after you're done in the service."  And I says, "No.  I'll go."  And I could have gotten out of the service and decided not to and I have never regretted that decision.  I was pretty young at the time.  I was 22.  I had no attachments and in way I'm glad I went, because you know, I did end up serving the country.  And, you know, you do owe the country something and unlike that piece of shit that's in the White House right now, excuse me for cursing and voicing my politics which I guess I shouldn't, but you know that guy is had five deferments including ones with heel spurs, and I could have gotten out.  

[00:28:27]
>> No.  

[00:28:27]
>> But I didn't.  That guy used every excuse in the book to keep himself from serving.  He's two years older than me.  He could have served and he didn't.  He talks about how much he loves the military.  He's a lying piece of crap and that's one of the best examples of it.  Anyway, I happy that I served.  I'm proud that I served.  I'm a veteran and I'm glad that I'm a veteran.  And I had, and that's the thing, I could have gotten out of it and I decided not to and I think it's one of the decisions I've made in my life that I am very proud of.  

[00:29:00]
>> And then, since it's been like 50 years since 1968, do you feel like that was; I know you were like in med school and stuff, but do you feel like that was one of the most memorable years for you in terms of like what was happening around the world?  

[00:29:17]
>> Yeah, I think that's about right, not memorable personally because the most important things in my life that have happened didn't happen in 1968.  

[00:29:29]
>> Right.  

[00:29:29]
>> You know, but as far as the world is concerned, yes 1968 was, a lot of stuff happened in 1968.  The likes of which, yeah, there haven't been many years that had much happen as happened in 1968 particularly in the United States, but not just in the United States.  I think at that time they were having all those student riots and [inaudible].  There was stuff going on all over the world.  There was cultural change, political change.  Yes, I think 1968 was one of those remarkable years sort of like a, probably like 1848 was in Europe.  Yes, stuff like that.  Yes.  

[00:30:19]
>> Okay.  That's all the questions that I have.  

[00:30:23]
>> Okay.  

[00:30:23]
>> Is there anything else you'd want to add?  

[00:30:29]
>> You probably don't know my, understand my reference to 1848 in Europe.  

[00:30:34]
>> Yeah.  

[00:30:36]
>> But you can look it up.  That was the year of the Revolutions.  They had revolutions all over the continent of Europe with the exception of England which almost overthrew several governments.  The Revolutions ended up failing, but it pre-staged the revolutions that took place in Europe later on.  Yeah, you could look up what happened in 1848 if you have interest in history.  

[00:31:02]
>> Okay.  

[00:31:02]
>> Other years that are remarkable like that probably I would include 1914, because that was when the; it wasn't just the World War I started then, but that marked the end of an outlook towards life, towards politics, towards the world, towards everything.  It was literally a sea change in the way people looked at things.  You have to say in Europe because unfortunately, you know, the other parts of the world didn't drive things as much back then mainly because it was Europe mainly that counted and most of the other world was part of, you know, subjugated by a colonialism.  I think, again, if you keep it from a European perspective and in a way you do, because that's where a lot of history really comes from; 1348 because that was the year of the Great, of the Black Death.  That was when the Black, in 1946 or 1348 was when the Black Death hit Europe.  I mean, 50% of the population of Europe died in a matter of two years.  

[00:32:05]
>> Yeah.  

[00:32:05]
>> And it totally changed the way they looked at things.  You'd have to make that one of those years and maybe the year that Martin Luther put his 95 Theses Diet of Worms was that 1517 I think?  But maybe go back to the invention of the printing press in the last 1400s [bell sound].  It was completely changing the world.  But those are, you know, years that, you know, a sea change occurred to humanity, so.  Yeah, that's about what I'd say.  I'm not sure if I have; I'm not sure what else I'd add.  You know, obviously the remarkable thing now is the ease of communication.  When I was on Okinawa in 1972 and I wanted to call my parents around for the holidays, I had to go to the phone center.  
[00:33:14]
Well, actually I could use the phone in the dispensary where we worked, I'd have to call the base operator and I had to call another operator and then I'd have to hang up while they placed the international call and they would; they'd call me back about a half-an-hour later when they made connection and, of course, it really did sound like you were talking to somebody on the moon.  

[00:33:32]
>> Oh, wow.  

[00:33:33]
>> You know, and we called and we had our conversation and then I hung up and those calls were expensive.  Now, you can call anywhere, anywhere anybody, anywhere in the world and it sounds like they're in the same room with you.  

[00:33:47]
>> Uh-huh.  

[00:33:47]
>> The communication is unbelievable, just unbelievable.  

[00:33:51]
>> Yeah, I can't even.  

[00:33:52]
>> And you could not, could not have seen that back then.  Although, there was a, there was a comic strip back then called Dick Tracey and Dick Tracey had his wrist radio.  He had a wristwatch radio that he could communicate to other people by talking into his wristwatch and I guess now with the Apple watch you can do that.  So, yeah.  It was a, it was a different world.  

[00:34:19]
>> Yeah.  

[00:34:19]
>> But then, and I was only 18 then and now I'm 68, so it's a yeah you see a lot and people back then would tell me how much change they had seen.  You know, just to give you an example, in the city, every and I grew up right in Center City right near Rittenhouse Square at the stoop, at the steps for every house in the city we all lived in these brownstones, they had this little metal thing to scrape the bottoms of your shoes, okay, and that was because back when there were horses.  Well, first of all, when I was a kid nobody curbed their dog.  There was dog crap all over the place, nobody curbed their dogs like they do now and nobody would walk around carrying a bag to scoop up some dog's poop after it went.  They just swept it in the street.  So, that was what that was for for that and also [inaudible] back to the year before they had cars when you had horses all the time and there was, and actually we still had some horses going through the streets every now and then and you see horse crap in the middle of the street, and you would step in it and so you needed to scrape it off your shoes before you walked into the house and that's what those things were for, boot scrapers.  
[00:35:32]
And, you know, you don't need them anymore because, you know, there may be some mud and dirt and stuff like that, but it was nothing like it was before.  You would be running down the street and the next thing you know you stepped in a pile of dog crap.  Oh god.  

[00:35:46]
>> Yeah [brief laughter].  

[00:35:46]
>> Yes.  Yes.  That's, but you don't see that anymore, but yeah the streets.  You think the streets are filthy now, this streets were filthy back then absolutely.  

[00:35:55]
>> So, you like went through; did you go to a public school like in the city?  

[00:36:02]
>> Yes.  Yes.  I went to public school in Philadelphia.  I went to |Center City Elementary School then I went to the Julia R. Masterman School which is now a high school, but back then it was a elementary/junior high.  They called it a experimental school and then I went to Central High School for Boys which is now just Central High School, because it was, it went coed back in the early 80s I think which is the second oldest public high school in the country.  That was an outstanding high school.  I got an outstanding education at that school and I loved, I loved my four years at Central.  That was, that was just one of; when I went to my 50th Reunion in a last year, two years ago and it was, that was a great school.  The public schools in Philadelphia then were very, very good and you could get an excellent education.  If you were a bright kid, you could get an excellent education in the public schools in Philadelphia.  

[00:37:00]
>> Okay.  Did you?  

[00:37:02]
>> I've always been a proponent of public schools.  

[00:37:06]
>> Yeah.  

[00:37:06]
>> I think that, I think that private schools, I think that private schools coach elitism.  They separate people from, the encroach classism.  They separate people from everybody else.  I think the great thing about public schools is that if the public schools are run properly you get people from all walks of society in there and you get to meet them and social, and you're with them in class and I think that's very, very important.  I think that's something that public schools provide that no charter school and no private school is ever going to provide and that's why I don't like the idea of those kinds of schools.  

[00:37:46]
>> Uh-hum.  What other colleges did you apply to besides Penn State or is Penn State the only one?  

[00:37:51]
>> No, no.  I applied to and you know college applications were much different back then.  You did not have to go to the school for an interview for many of the colleges.  You would; they did want a picture and you would fill out an application.  I don't think, I don't know if applications cost more back then or not.  I applied to Northwestern.  I applied to Boston University.  I applied to Johns Hopkins.  I applied to Penn, simply because if you were in the academic class at Central you got into Penn and we had a high school class of 540 and 90 of us got into Penn.  So, I got into Penn.  I applied to; I had had an algebra teacher in 9th grade who was he was a substitute teacher, but he was a teacher for the whole year.  He was between college teaching jobs.  So, he got a job teaching at Central and he really liked me and he when I was a senior he had left moved on to a job, he was teaching a McGill in Montreal and he wrote my father, there was no email back then, he wrote my father when I was a senior and told him I should apply to McGill.  
[00:38:57]
So, I applied to McGill, just sent away for an application, got the application, filled it out and got into McGill.  I didn't go there but I just applied because he told me to.  So, I applied to a number of different schools, but Jefferson was the one I got in and Penn State Jefferson accepted me and I just took that one because it was closer to home, it was Pennsylvania and so, and once I had the acceptance I had what I needed, and so I didn't you know I didn't continue the acceptance process with other schools.  

[00:39:27]
>> Okay.  I think that's; I think that's everything now.  

[00:39:33]
>> Okay.  Okay.  

[00:39:34]
>> Alright.  

[00:39:36]
>> Well, I hope that was helpful for you McKenzie.  

[00:39:38]
>> Yes, it was.  Thank you.  

[00:39:41]
>> Oh, you're very welcome.  It's been a pleasure, been, it's been very, it's been a pleasure talking with you.  

[00:39:45]
>> Thank you so much.  And I hope you enjoy your retirement now.  My mom said you had your retirement party.  

[00:39:51]
>> Today is the, today is the first day of my retirement.  

[00:39:54]
>> Oh, wow.  

[00:39:56]
>> Yesterday afternoon I turned off my beeper for the last time.  It was, it felt great.  

[00:40:03]
>> Oh.  

[00:40:04]
>> It felt just great.  So, well good luck.  Which a, are you at Penn State?  

[00:40:10]
>> Yeah [audio issues].  

[00:40:11]
>> You at Penn State?  Which campus are you at?  

[00:40:15]
>> Main.  University Park.  

[00:40:16]
>> Oh, you're at the main campus, okay.  

[00:40:18]
>> Yeah.  

[00:40:18]
>> Well, that's great.  That's a, it's a lot bigger.  When I was there, there were 20,000 undergraduates.  I think there's closer to 40,000 now?  

[00:40:25]
>> Yeah.  And then plus like all the grad students.  

[00:40:28]
>> Okay.  And my first dorm, well in the summer they put us in; I was in Ewing Hall which was actually a female dorm they turned it into a male dorm for the summer, but my first dorm was Brumbaugh Hall which was brand new.  You could still smell the paint, and that one was up in East Halls and there was nothing beyond those halls and then there was the, there was the stadium that was it.  There was nothing else up there at that corner of the, that corner of the campus.  And there was nothing between those halls except for I think the, I think there was some barns between that and the valley, that and the mountains at the end of the valley.  So, during the winter when you would go to class the wind would come down from there and blow across the parking lot as you walked to class; Jesus I've never been so cold in my life.  

[00:41:23]
>> Yeah, I hear it's supposed to get really.  

[00:41:26]
>> But yes.  But if Burmbaugh Hall was still standing, it's going to be, it's 50 years old.  

[00:41:32]
>> Yeah, I'm not sure if that one; I'm in East Halls now and.  

[00:41:38]
>> Okay.  

[00:41:38]
>> My dorm is Stewart Hall.  I don't know if you ever heard of that one.  

[00:41:43]
>> I don't remember the names of the other halls.  

[00:41:45]
>> Yeah.  

[00:41:46]
>> I remember a Pollock Hall, but I don't remember.  

[00:41:48]
>> Yeah.  

[00:41:49]
>> A Stewart Hall.  

[00:41:50]
>> But my, I think.  

[00:41:51]
>> The building I was in was a 10-foot, was 10-story building.  It had 10 floors.  

[00:41:56]
>> Oh, wow.  I think mine has 7.  

[00:42:02]
>> Oh, okay.  Okay.  

[00:42:04]
>> But it was just newly renovated, so it's a lot nicer than the other like traditional ones.  

[00:42:12]
>> Well, that's good.  

[00:42:13]
>> Yeah, [multiple speakers].  

[00:42:14]
>> We didn't have phones in our rooms.  There was a pay phone in the hall.  No TVs.  There was a TV at the a, you had to go to the, you had to go to the Dining Hall to watch TV.  

[00:42:28]
>> Oh.  

[00:42:28]
>> There was no TV lounge in the dorm itself.  

[00:42:33]
>> Huh.  

[00:42:33]
>> And there were cigarette machines.  

[00:42:36]
>> Oh, my gosh.  

[00:42:37]
>> Cigarettes were 35 cents a pack.  

[00:42:41]
>> Wow.  Yeah, there's like a kitchen downstairs and a TV and a bunch of couches.  

[00:42:47]
>> Nope, nope.  We didn't have; microwaves hadn't been invented.  So, you could have food in your room but you had no way of heating it up unless you had a hotplate.  

[00:42:56]
>> Uh-huh.  Wow.  

[00:42:57]
>> So, anyway.  

[00:42:58]
>> Well, I hope you enjoy your retirement.  

[00:43:04]
>> Well, thank you McKenzie.  Thank you.  I enjoyed doing the interview with you.  

[00:43:08]
>> Thank you so much.  

[00:43:11]
>> Oh, you're welcome and good luck in your course.  

[00:43:13]
>> Thank you.  Bye.  

[00:43:16]
>> You're welcome.  Bye-bye.  

[00:00:00]

>> Okay, so we can go ahead and get started here.  Could you please--  

[00:00:04]
>> Okay.  

[00:00:04]
>> -- say your name for me?  

[00:00:08]
>> I'm sorry, Olivia.  I didn't hear you.  

[00:00:10]
>> Can you say your name for me please we  

[00:00:14]
>> Stuart Levin.  

[00:00:16]
>> Okay.  And I'm interviewing you as Penn State student my name is Olivia McCormick.  We are going to be recording for approximately 45 to 60 minutes.  And we can go ahead and get started.  So, can you tell me a little bit about yourself.  

[00:00:35]
>> I'm 68 1/2 years old.  I graduated Pennsylvania State University in March 1971.  I'm an attorney retired now.  I practiced in Washington DC for about 35 years.  

[00:00:54]
>> And why did you choose Penn State for your college experience?  

[00:01:01]
>> I started-- I went my freshman year of college at University of Pittsburg where I was born and grew up.  And I just felt like I want to go away from home for my college years.  And candidly, it was a state school and the tuition was much more reasonable than private universities and it was a good school.  My older sister is a year ahead of me and she was there.  And it seemed like it would provide a very good educational and general college experience.  So that's where I went.  

[00:01:46]
>> And what was [inaudible]  

[00:01:47]
>> -- as a sophomore.  

[00:01:48]
>> -- entered Pittsburg?  

[00:01:52]
>> I'm sorry?  

[00:01:52]
>> What was your major when you entered Pittsburg University?  

[00:01:58]
>> When I entered Penn State and when I entered Pittsburg-- U of Pitt-- I was a chem major and a bio minor.  

[00:02:07]
>> Oh, wow.  That's what different from law.  

[00:02:13]
>> Yes.  Well, to be truthful, I did very well at U of Pitt.  I had like about a 3.8 average.  And then transferred to Penn State and my grades did a downturn.  It was the first time I was away from home.  I pledged a paternity candidly I discovered beer.  And it detracted from my studies and my average sunk my sophomore year.  

[00:02:45]
>> Well, that happens.  

[00:02:47]
>> But my college experience was superior.  If that makes sense.  

[00:02:57]
>> And--  

[00:02:57]
>> I was a-- I graduated high school at 17.  And I was probably a tad immature and that first year at Pitt which felt like an extension of high school that was fine for me.  And then at age 18 I went to Penn State.  

[00:03:23]
>> And with so much going on in the 60s, like you know, the first moon photos--  

[00:03:28]
>> Unbelievable.  

[00:03:29]
>> -- protests, what were your interests while you are at Penn State?  

[00:03:38]
>> Well, the protesting centered and I was active in it.  Centered around the antiwar movement.  

[00:03:48]
>> Yes.  

[00:03:48]
>> There had been a draft in the United States and the reality is you could be drafted and the you know killed or wounded in Vietnam and you still didn't have the right to vote.  The voting age was 21.  The draft age was 18.  And the war was not viewed positively by a lot of people.  Including myself and I will elaborate on that in a little bit.  But I was also big on the civil rights movement.  That was very important to me and I did a lot of protesting for the civil rights movement.  But there are other things to protest as well some of them more meaningful than others.  And there was a lot of just feeling of anti-authority and not wanting to be controlled by older people.  
[00:04:58]
It was an amazing time.  I've said to people I wouldn't trade going to college in the 60s or anything.  It was pretty exciting stuff.  

[00:05:11]
>> And were a lot of your friends involved in these movements and protests?  

[00:05:16]
>> Yes.  

[00:05:18]
>> Was there a particular professor or person or friend that had a lasting impression who was involved in this?  

[00:05:32]
>> I had a wonderful, wonderful speech professor a guy named John Skeeber [phonetic], and I ended up switching majors several times at Penn State and I ended up graduating with a general arts and sciences but I took a great many history courses.  Latin American, with what was his name-- Chuck-- Charles something.  But I had some wonderful, wonderful professors in the history department, the political science department, [inaudible] was a genius and he was one of my professors.  

[00:06:16]
>> And why exactly was it that you really admired him?  

[00:06:22]
>> [inaudible] it was rumored was a CIA guy for a long time.  As an analyst but his political science knowledge and the way he was communicating it to the students was just wonderful.  You really felt like you were understanding this material really based on his superb communication skills.  

[00:06:53]
>> And--  

[00:06:53]
>> And the same with Dr. [inaudible] in the history department.  

[00:07:08]
>> So, would you consider a lot of your professors heavily involved in political movements and were you involved in international affairs or you were you interested in international affairs at the time?  

[00:07:24]
>> First question I did not think our professors were overtly political or involved.  I thought you know they were pretty mild.  How do I-- her question was do I find them to be particularly involved in these things?  

[00:07:48]
>> Yes.  

[00:07:49]
>> No.  Not openly.  It might've been but they weren't communicating it to the students.  

[00:07:55]
>> And do you think that professors are more forthcoming with their views today?  Do you think there's been a shift?  

[00:08:06]
>> Well, I'm not in the university setting anymore.  I have lectured for various classes law school classes in my career but I don't think I have had enough academic contact lately to opine on that.  I don't know what's going on there today.  I have no children that have been or are now in college.  So I'm really just not close to the situation.  

[00:08:38]
>> Okay.  And you said that you did lecture for a while.  Can you tell me a bit about that?  

[00:08:50]
>> Oh, I-- my field of law practice was in commercial real estate and I had a number of friends that were teaching adjunct as adjunct professors in one of the DC area law schools and they would periodically ask me if I would come and talk to their students about an area of real property law or commercial real estate transactional law that they would find of interest.  So I probably did that a half-dozen times.  Do you have any suggestions for students or Penn State students like myself currently?  

[00:09:40]
>> Advice?  Well, you are in one of the best times of your life.  You just don't realize it.  Or maybe you do.  I always felt like when I was in college I was too young to appreciate what a wonderful environment I was in and  the opportunities that were presented to me were knowledge advancement socialization I think you have to going to college and treat it almost as a full-time job.  Meeting spend 12 hours a day doing school stuff.  A stay away from the television stay away from things that would distract you and treat it like I get up at 8 o'clock or 7 o'clock in the morning I go to school at eight and I spend the day on campus doing different things including attending classes and going to the library or whatever and you know and I've done it if I work hard during the day I can be done at 9 o'clock at night.  

[00:10:47]
>> Yeah, exactly.  

[00:10:48]
>> And that would be like a 12 our day.  

[00:10:50]
>> Yeah.  

[00:10:51]
>> But you know there's a tendency-- there's a lot of distraction in college as well.  

[00:10:56]
>> Yeah.  Yeah, exactly.  When you were a student, what did you find that you were distracted with yourself?  Was it TV or music what kind of things did you do in your free time?  

[00:11:10]
>> Many, many things, Olivia.  I lived in a fraternity house.  I was a member of a fraternity with 55 other 18, 19, 20-year-old guys.  And there was always somebody to play with or to distract you and always a football game going on on the lawn and always a poker game going on in the dining room, and just socialization with people.  It was enlightening but distracting from the school were part of it.  I was not one of Penn State's finest students when I was there.  

[00:11:49]
>> Well, college is always distracting like that.  

[00:11:55]
>> Yeah.  And it's also the age we are at.  You know we are in many cases we are on our own for the first time meeting we are not living under our parents' roof.  We suddenly have to manage our lives.  Depending on how managed they were when you lived at home.  But the idea of freedom so to speak or at least you know doing things on your own at 18 some are ready for it and some are not.  

[00:12:27]
>> Is there anything you would have done differently?  

[00:12:32]
>> Yes.  I would've paid more attention to my scholastic work.  I really would have.  Because my average was very low.  I did get into law school.  I had excellent law boards, but it's-- I mean I can still remember many of the things I learned in college.  Many, many things in the classroom.  And it was wonderful and I loved the liberal arts college because you were exposed to so many different areas and subjects.  But you know overriding it all is in the 60s and 68 was if you didn't keep your you know if you flunked out of college, you would be drafted within 30 to 45 days.  Your student deferment would be gone and then you'd be in the military.  
[00:13:36]
So it was important to have a modicum of success in college so you you know work drafted.  It permeated your thought process.  It was distracting.  

[00:13:53]
>> So you said you wish that you would paid more attention to your studies while you were in University.  

[00:13:59]
>> Yes, I do.  I would've liked to have had better grades and maybe gone to a better law school.  

[00:14:03]
>> You have a job while you were studying?  Was your first job?  

[00:14:09]
>> Oh, I had several jobs.  I taught Sunday school at the Jewish community center in State College.  The principle of the Hebrew school was an older fraternity brother of mine and he recruited a lot of his teachers from people in the fraternity.  I also drove people to the Philipsburg airport for three dollars a drive back then what else did I do to make a living?  A few things.  Odd jobs, worked as a retail clerk at [inaudible] men's store for a brief period.  

[00:15:03]
>> You don't see a lot of fraternity members teaching Sunday school.  Were you religious well you are Penn State?  

[00:15:09]
>> Not particularly.  But I did attend-- I did graduate Sunday school the student and I was teaching third graders and I kept their attention.  After college I went to Pittsburgh and was a schoolteacher for year and 1/2.  Before I started law school.  So you know I like teaching.  My mother was a teacher, my father taught for the U.S. Army.  You know I enjoy teaching.  And throughout my legal career I was a lecturer and somewhat of a mentor to the younger lawyers in the firm.  

[00:15:54]
>> Okay.  What was your favorite thing about teaching?  

[00:16:00]
>> Saying that light of understanding behind the eyes.  When I was in Pittsburgh I taught in an inner-city high school.  I had special ed classes.  I taught in English and math to 10th and 11th graders.  So and I enjoyed it.  I found it to be one of the most rewarding things I ever did in my life.  

[00:16:28]
>> Did you see any impact on the kids you taught from that generation?  Like there were a lot of media campaigns and commercials like duck and cover.  Did you see any of that what your teaching?  

[00:16:42]
>> No I didn't see that.  I saw when I was a student we had the duck and cover things.  I also started to get very politically motivated.  I would you know I was active in liberal politics.  But no, I don't remember duck and cover.  Like I say it was a really rough inner-city high school in the industrial section of Pittsburgh but I definitely got through to some of the students.  I think you know they I could see the light.  They would understand things I would say to them and I was able to communicate the subject matter to them and I had some success.  I was a well-liked teacher.  Because I was so young.  I was 21 when I was teaching high school.  Some of my students were 17 and 18.  
[00:17:43]
So--  

[00:17:50]
>> And going back to a more social and media perspective, where did you get your news?  

[00:17:58]
>> I read the New York Times every day of my life.  Back then.  

[00:18:02]
>> Wow, that's impressive as a student.  

[00:18:06]
>> Yeah, well I enjoyed reading the newspaper.  I even did the New York Times crossword puzzle with the pen most days.  

[00:18:18]
>> Wow.  

[00:18:19]
>> Well I think I had-- I had more energy back then.  

[00:18:24]
>> And did you really watching TV at all?  

[00:18:30]
>> Yeah, late at night we would you know watch whatever movie was on or something.  There were only three TV stations maybe four at state college in the 60s.  You didn't have you know you had cable because there were no antennas but it was only to get like the network stations and a few New York stations.  

[00:18:52]
>> Yeah.  

[00:18:52]
>> You listen to more music than you watch TV?  

[00:18:57]
>> Yes.  Yes.  I enjoyed rock music.  I enjoyed soul music back then.  Jazz I liked.  Yeah.  We listened to a lot of music.  Everybody-- every student I knew or almost most of them brought a stereo system to college.  Two speakers, an amp and a turntable.  And you know and you would hear music playing all day long constantly.  All over the University.  

[00:19:38]
>> Do you think that music was better back then?  

[00:19:43]
>> Yes, I do.  And there were many concerts at Penn State.  There was a concert like every other week of national groups.  So there was a lot to do and like I say it was a pretty social atmosphere.  Like I say I think I had a wonderful college experience.  

[00:20:11]
>> Is there anything that you would like to add or talk about?  That you feel is important about the 60s or your experience at Penn State?  

[00:20:22]
>> Well, Olivia, how do I say-- it was the best of times it was the worst of times.  We were a rebellious generation against authority and in some cases just the status quo.  I think that my generation questioned why have we always done it this way?  And we are not going to accept as an answer because we have always done it that way.  You know?  We grew up most of us were young when Kennedy was president.  It was in my early teens and you know it-- he was such an inspiration to younger people.  We couldn't identify with Dwight Eisenhower, but Kennedy a most looked like our parents age.  And he was.  And that was you know an inspiration to us all.  
[00:21:27]
And then--  It was a time when you just were bombarded with so much things happening and questions being raised.  It was a questioning generation.  And we would say why and why not?  So I found it very very stimulating on an ineluctable basis and you know you would get-- you would go like let's say places where you would be with older people and you'd get in arguments over political things and it was just refreshing.  I liked it.  

[00:22:18]
>> The concept of teenagers in the 60s was really sort of developing.  When you went to college did you ever feel like you know you were a kid sort of fighting for these big world things?  

[00:22:33]
>> Yes.  I did.  When I went to Washington with some other people when they tore down resurrection city I don't know if you are familiar with that.  In 1968, there was a civil rights movement a civil rights march in Washington a huge one.  And then there was these collection of tents and things called resurrection city and the assassinations in the 60's Martin Luther King and Bobby Kennedy, it was-- you know you just didn't know where to turn to get some sanity in your world.  But after King was assassinated, there was a tremendous groundswell of civil rights protests going on and Ralph Abernathy took over the NAACP and he was arrested about 15 feet in front of me when they tore down resurrection city.  
[00:23:45]
I was down there protesting and you just felt like you were trying to get more involved.  Trying to make a difference.  That was sort of what we were all about.  Let's try to make a difference.  

[00:24:00]
>> And did you ever feel scared when you were protesting?  Or you know exhibit--  

[00:24:07]
>> Yeah.  I felt that a lot.  You know you are protesting there are counter protesters you know calling you names and this and that and yeah.  I felt bad for the country.  I think the country was particularly going in the right place.  And then when Nixon was elected president, I was one of the people that never ever ever trusted Richard Nixon.  So that was a bad time and the Democratic convention in Chicago and 68 was phenomenal event where you saw national reporters being clubbed by Chicago policeman and protesters just being slammed by these beer truck sized cops and then you had you know just-- and then you had men walking on the moon back then I think, too.  
[00:25:15]
No, that was the next year.  But you know the late 60s were a very turbulent turbulent time.  

[00:25:25]
>> And you never question your beliefs when you are protesting?  I guess it was a pretty severe situation.  

[00:25:30]
>> No.  No.  I actually was raised with a wonderful set of values.  There was absolutely no racism in my household.  In my family's household.  And we felt people deserved to be treated equally and I felt that way and I also felt that we shouldn't be sending kids forcibly off to war before they can vote.  I was very-- I wasn't as antiwar as I was anti-racial discrimination, but I had some issues.  My father was an Army reserve Col. at the time of the war.  And he told me that this was a lousy war.  We weren't fighting it right.  We were doing some really stupid things over there because he was actually teaching at the Army staff College-- a very bright man my father was.  
[00:26:33]
And he said look, if you get drafted you know you do what you-- what's good for you.  I'd rather you not move to Canada, but I said if I get drafted dad I'll probably you know probably serve I didn't know what else I should be doing.  I love the country.  I just thought it was the wrong direction.  But I was-- my student deferment lasted until after the draft was over.  I graduated just as the draft was ending.  

[00:27:07]
>> Wow.  

[00:27:08]
>> And I did not have to serve.  

[00:27:09]
>> You felt like your parents were really supportive but at the same time they were maybe fearful for you when you were-- especially protesting.  

[00:27:21]
>> Yes.  

[00:27:22]
>> Did they ever say anything about that?  

[00:27:23]
>> Yes.  There was always-- back then you're going to love this.  On the 11 o'clock news it would come on and they'd say it's 11 o'clock do you know where your children are?  And then they would go to the news.  And there was one night my parents were watching TV and they were talking about protesting down at the University in Pittsburgh and there was their son on the TV set.  So we were protesting we didn't have air conditioning yet.  It was spring and you know the dormitories weren't air-conditioned yet.  It was ridiculous.  But you know is something to do.  No, my parents were extremely supportive of me.  They said I should do what I want to do.  But they gave me supported in college.  They paid my tuition.  Everything else was on me.  But I worked in the summers and it was fine.  
[00:28:23]
I lost both my parents at advanced ages and I stayed close with them pretty much all the way through.  We had a few minor-- few disagreements along the way but by and large I was very close with them.  And they supported me and-- like that.  

[00:28:44]
>> Okay.  Some just about out of questions here.  And our time is almost up.  Is there anything else that you would like to add?  

[00:28:54]
>> Well, is there anything else you'd like to ask Olivia?  

[00:29:09]
>> I think I've pretty much got all of my questions set out if you are all set to go.  

[00:29:14]
>> Okay.  Where are you from?  

[00:29:16]
>> I'm from Pennsylvania, yes.  

[00:29:20]
>> Where?  

[00:29:22]
>> York.  

[00:29:23]
>> Got you.  I did some canvassing in York for the last election.  I was up there a couple days.  Nice place.  

[00:29:35]
>> Yeah, thank you.  

[00:29:36]
>> They have the Roberto Clementi baseball stadium there, don't they?  

[00:29:42]
>> Oh, I'm not really a sports fan.  I can tell you.  

[00:29:48]
>> Okay.  Got you.  

[00:29:50]
>> Well, thank you so much for your time.  I really appreciate you talking with me.  

[00:29:54]
>> Well, thank you so much.  And if something occurs to you that you didn't understand you know that I didn't communicate well, please feel free to give me a call.  

[00:30:04]
>> Thank you, so much.  Have a good day.  

[00:30:06]
>> And you the same.  Bye, now.  

[00:00:00]

>> I'm just going to ask you a few questions about your time here at Penn State and thank you so much for talking with me today.  I really appreciate it.  

[00:00:08]
>> Sure.  

[00:00:09]
>> So, what years did you attend the university?  

[00:00:13]
>> Okay, I matriculated in the fall of 66.  

[00:00:16]
>> Okay.  

[00:00:17]
>> And graduated in the, after the spring of 70.  

[00:00:22]
>> Okay.  And why did you choose Penn State for your university education?  

[00:00:27]
>> Well, I had pretty good grades in high school.  I could most anywhere I thought.  I applied at Allegany which my brother and cousin had both attended, and I also applied at Penn State where my mother and father and an aunt had attended.  

[00:00:44]
>> Okay.  

[00:00:44]
>> And I went with Penn State, because it was a bigger, bigger campus that offered more.  

[00:00:49]
>> Yeah.  For sure.  And so, you majored in English.  Did you have any?  

[00:00:53]
>> Yes.  

[00:00:53]
>> Minors or any other academic interests here at Penn State?  

[00:00:58]
>> No, generally I had English and then I took Russian as my language major, my language requirement.  

[00:01:06]
>> Okay.  

[00:01:07]
>> And I also, in starting the winter term, we were on the quarter system with the semesters.  I don't know what you do now, but I started with Karate.  There was a Karate club that was taught by a man who ran a Dojo in Pittsburgh.  

[00:01:24]
>> Okay.  

[00:01:24]
>> And I started there in the winter and I kept right on with it and graduated with an English degree and a black belt.  

[00:01:33]
>> Oh, wow.  And then was there a particular course or professor that made a long-lasting impression on your studies here?  

[00:01:42]
>> Sure.  Phil Klass.  He taught English.  I took a course in writing with him.  I think it was journalistic writing.  He was published as the author, science fiction author William Tenn.  

[00:01:58]
>> Okay.  

[00:01:59]
>> And I had that English course and then also starting at about 69, there was a movement on campus to broaden the curriculum, and we were talking about relevance and so, you know, rather than just the standard curriculum had been in place for, what 50 years?  They wanted to have new courses available and so he did a, he offered a course on the future.  

[00:02:30]
>> Okay.  

[00:02:30]
>> And there was, so there were published authors, Hall Brooner [assumed spelling] is doing, you know, looking at futurism as a science , you know, and this course was to look at that and also take a kind of an interesting look at other things.  I wrote a paper on the [inaudible] for instance.  You know, so it was an interesting course.  

[00:02:53]
>> Yeah, that's interesting.  What kind of music interested you during this time?  

[00:02:59]
>> Probably, well I was always interested in classical.  

[00:03:03]
>> Okay.  

[00:03:04]
>> My dad liked classical.  We had classical music in the, at home from you know the age of 6, 5, but I was listening a lot to the current popular music which would have been big on the Beatles, Simon and Garfunkel, the Mamas and the Papas.  You know, that was pretty much soft rock at that time, you know.  And, you know, that was the music of the age.  

[00:03:39]
>> And so, what news sources did you obtain your news from [inaudible]?  

[00:03:46]
>> News source?  

[00:03:47]
>> Yeah, like where did you, where did you get your news from on campus?  

[00:03:51]
>> Lord you pretty, you were pretty isolated there.  Unless you subscribed and had sent your hometown paper or a big town paper which I, none of it, no people I knew did.  You had the Daily Collegian which was the Penn State paper which was pretty, you know, pretty locally focused.  There was basketball or baseball, you know, or football and you know doings on campus and it wasn't as political as it might be today, you know.  It was, you know, things were it was pretty, you know, local news and, you know, you might listen to the radio but I mostly listened to the FM station if I had the radio on at all.  After dinner I was on campus, I was in the dorms for the four years.  

[00:04:40]
>> Okay.  

[00:04:41]
>> So, I didn't have a, I wasn't you know downtown in an apartment.  I wasn't in a frat.  But in the dorms, you know, after dinner you'd go back to the lounge and they'd have the TV going and it might be just occasionally might be you know Walter Cronkite and the CBS news.  

[00:04:58]
>> Yeah.  

[00:04:59]
>> At 6 O'clock.  But mostly it was reruns of Star Trek.